Discover the secrets to sustainable ministry with wisdom from Pastor to Pastor & Bishop TC Holmes, as we delve into the often-overlooked realm of pastoral self-care and leadership development. Experience the joy and spiritual fulfillment that come from leading a congregation to salvation, and learn how simple acts of faith can draw people closer to God. Yet, amid these profound discussions, we're reminded that to truly serve others, we must first ensure our own well-being. Bishop Holmes, with his rich background in leadership at Shirol Family Worship Center, shares invaluable insights on the essential balance between spiritual duties and the necessity of physical self-care for pastors.
Embark on a thought-provoking journey examining the perils of burnout in high-stakes roles and the transformative importance of rest and self-reflection for leaders. We tackle the tough questions about authenticity and effectiveness in both work and personal life, and how they are directly influenced by our physical, mental, and emotional health. By understanding our areas of genuine impact, we are challenged to focus our energies wisely, ensuring that the well-being of the leader is reflected positively upon the congregation. This episode is a powerful reminder of the ripple effect our personal health has on those we lead and serve.
Concluding our enlightening dialogue, we shine a light on the significance of accountability and the right spiritual guidance in our lives. From overcoming everyday temptations to embracing our God-given assignments, mentorship proves to be a linchpin in achieving our full potential. Unpack the concept of authentic leadership with us and grasp the liberating truth of being responsible 'to' rather than 'for' others. Whether you're a pastor seeking rejuvenation or a leader pursuing a more impactful ministry, let this episode be your guide to prioritizing your well-being and finding the mentorship necessary for a truly fulfilling service.
Discover the secrets to sustainable ministry with wisdom from Pastor to Pastor & Bishop TC Holmes, as we delve into the often-overlooked realm of pastoral self-care and leadership development. Experience the joy and spiritual fulfillment that come from leading a congregation to salvation, and learn how simple acts of faith can draw people closer to God. Yet, amid these profound discussions, we're reminded that to truly serve others, we must first ensure our own well-being. Bishop Holmes, with his rich background in leadership at Shirol Family Worship Center, shares invaluable insights on the essential balance between spiritual duties and the necessity of physical self-care for pastors.
Embark on a thought-provoking journey examining the perils of burnout in high-stakes roles and the transformative importance of rest and self-reflection for leaders. We tackle the tough questions about authenticity and effectiveness in both work and personal life, and how they are directly influenced by our physical, mental, and emotional health. By understanding our areas of genuine impact, we are challenged to focus our energies wisely, ensuring that the well-being of the leader is reflected positively upon the congregation. This episode is a powerful reminder of the ripple effect our personal health has on those we lead and serve.
Concluding our enlightening dialogue, we shine a light on the significance of accountability and the right spiritual guidance in our lives. From overcoming everyday temptations to embracing our God-given assignments, mentorship proves to be a linchpin in achieving our full potential. Unpack the concept of authentic leadership with us and grasp the liberating truth of being responsible 'to' rather than 'for' others. Whether you're a pastor seeking rejuvenation or a leader pursuing a more impactful ministry, let this episode be your guide to prioritizing your well-being and finding the mentorship necessary for a truly fulfilling service.
Hey, it is pastor to pastor with pastor Jason and pastor Seth. Come on somebody. Yeah, look, we got an extraordinary treat for you today. How about we've got TC Holmes, bishop TC Holmes, in the house, what's?
Speaker 3:up. What's up how?
Speaker 1:you doing, sir.
Speaker 3:Doing good man. Great Couldn't be better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're here on a Sunday afternoon after we've done preach. Tell me, seth, how was Reliant Church this morning?
Speaker 2:The church was great, bro. We had one salvation today, praise the Lord. And God is still calling sons and daughters home. And we celebrated just like the heavens do, man. We're grateful for all that God's doing. Maybe we had a great day, how?
Speaker 1:about you. Yeah, it was great. We had a salvation today as well, and also Saturday for pulling in for prayer. We had a lady pull in and I ain't talking about. She just said a little prayer. I mean, bro, I'm telling you Holy Spirit, conviction, she just poured, she pulled in crying man. I mean, just like man, it's so awesome just to be out there, didn't have to say nothing, didn't have to preach nothing, just hold a sign saying pulling in for prayer and the Holy Spirit did the work. Like that's just awesome.
Speaker 2:I love how simple, simple Jesus is. Man Just a will invest on God will always show up, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You just create that opportunity. That's all I'm trying to do, brother TC, is hold the sign up and create the opportunity for people to pull in. But the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit pulled them in. She said I drove by and I saw it. She said I knew I couldn't pass it, I had to pull in.
Speaker 3:Everybody's looking for a sign, yeah, and we holding them out there on Saturday morning.
Speaker 2:That's a new tagline for you. Right there, everybody's looking for a sign. Here's your sign, right yeah?
Speaker 1:So, hey look, today we've got a special treat we got brother TC homes in here. We're going to talk on the topic of pastoral self care, or leadership self care Super, super important. I don't know about you, but there have been times, man, where I've had to, I've had to step back, I've had to take a break, I've had to focus and it is something that's absolutely important in ministers lives and we were talking a little bit brother homes before before we got, we went on air before we went live and we were just kind of talking about what pastoral self care looks like. And so, if you wouldn't, it's an entry way for you to first of all tell us who you are and where, what you're about, where you from, sir.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, this is TC homes. I am from Conway, south Carolina, originally. I am filling in now as pastor at Shirol Family Worship Center in Shirol, south Carolina, doing a work over there trying to get things back up and running. God is doing great things in the lives of his people, cause they're letting him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that's very important, that they just don't sit back and wait for God to do everything. Well, they've taken on Isaiah's mentality here, in my sense, and use me whatever, and so, uh yeah, other than that, I do a lot of leadership forms, I do a lot of ship, a lot of leadership development classes, I do a lot of evangelism. I got a lot of hats. Yeah, I'm not as young as I used to be I wish I was, cause I had energy back then. But uh yeah, man, that's just keep it simple, man, I'm just always on the go.
Speaker 1:We've even had you here before for leadership training and awesome, awesome man is full of wisdom and every time he opens his mouth you got to make sure you got a pencil and a pen and a piece of paper ready to record right. All right, so let's talk about this, uh, pastor, uh, pastoral self care, leadership self care. We talked about it briefly, uh, before we started, and we were talking about the physical and the spiritual, let's talk a little bit about the physical.
Speaker 3:Um, what I want to say this most people discard this. Okay, this is not something that we think about, because we're always thinking about our next. Right, what I got to do, I got to do, I got to do, I got to do. Even track runners take a break, that's right. Marathon runners take a break. They have to rest their times and seasons where they don't participate because they understand that they're not called to run every single race.
Speaker 3:Yeah, pastors do a terrible job. They feel like they've got to do this, they've got to do that, they've got their hands in so many different parts. But you cannot do what you're not equipped to do it. Even with the things that you're equipped to do, you have to learn to take care of yourself. Nobody else is going to care for you like you would care for you, and so, uh, I feel like something that's overlooked, as we we talked about before in self care.
Speaker 3:It's deeper than just your health, physically, I think, mentally, emotionally. Um, Paul said I pray that you would prosper and be in good health, even as your soul. That's your emotional realm, your, your, your memories, your ideologies, your imaginations. And Paul's mentor of mine told me one time he said here's the most dreaded fear of any minister is the realization that when fatigue sets in, faith walks out every time. You are not yourself when you're tired, that's right, and so we've learned to dress over top of that. We've learned to look real good when we've been real down and low.
Speaker 3:But you are not at your best when you are not at your best. And we've got, we've got ministers operating. They're running on fumes, man, it shows, and they are fooling no one but themselves. And so you have to learn every now and again to step back, because you never want to not be your best in your assignment. If you truly believe that God has called you to make an impact in the lives of people, you got to give them your very best. That's right. Jesus at times would lay down in the boat. He rested. He would not give himself to everybody. In fact, john makes a comment one time that he would not give his entire self to man because he knew what was in man.
Speaker 3:He knew that, no matter what you give them, it's never going to be enough. And so you've got people pleasers. You've got crowd pleasers. You've got people that feel like I got, I got to go, got to do. Man, the only thing you have to do is take care of yourself, because to the ability you possess to take care of you, it will manifest in how well you take care of other people.
Speaker 3:I tell pastors all the time if you really want to know what condition your life is in, look at your congregation. That's good, they'll tell you, because you reproduce after your own kind. You cannot generate something that's not in you. And so we've got pastors who are burning out. I don't know what the statistics are now. It keeps changing every month, but it was somewhere between it's in the thousands.
Speaker 3:They're not talking about just stopping the pastor, they're getting out of church altogether. Why is that? They're tired. They've come to a place where they feel like they have tried to please people for so long. When is enough enough? And with man, it's never going to be enough.
Speaker 3:That's why it's very important that when you take downtime, you need to go back through and analyze should I be doing this? Am I effective at that? Should I be doing that over there? Am I effective at that? Never give your life to something you're not effective at, because if you're not effective at it, it means God hasn't given you the influence you need to make an impact there. And so we're operating without impact, we're operating without influence, we're operating and we're not effective and we're just going through the motions.
Speaker 3:We're giving you our file. I'm going to preach this many sermons this year. Next year I'm going to come back and revisit this year, and so there's no fresh rame of word. And so what that says is I'm not taking care of me enough to grow, and so I can't grow you where I have not grown. I can't give you what I do not have. And when I'm tired, easy becomes the choice path. And so we've got guys that are really just by hanging on, by thread and just you know what you need to call in one Monday and say I'm not going to be here this week because I cannot give you the best of me if I'm not at my best.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you this why do you think pastors feel like the burden is all on them?
Speaker 3:Pressure to perform, the pressure to perform. You know what that is. Pride yeah, I'm proud of who I am. We worry, I don't care what nobody says. Everybody's worried about what somebody says about them.
Speaker 2:And that's the truth.
Speaker 3:We do we worried If they're going to think I'm not doing my job, I'm lazy my job, I'm slacking on my job, I don't want to cause any riff, I don't Listen, you're not going to please everybody. Yeah, Solomon said woe be unto any man of whom they all speak highly of. Jesus even said who do men say I am? Why? Because you're supposed to have some say Not everybody's going to agree with who you are, what you do, how you do it. But you realize that they aren't the ones that called you to do what you do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, and most of the complaints of people, initially when they come into our lives, it's twofold. Either one you're making a difference, so they complain, or two, you're not making a big enough difference, so they complain. So people are going to complain no matter what you do. Yeah, right. And so I feel like, out of the pressure to perform, we drive ourselves, man, to our wits end. Yeah, I can see that, but why? To what end? Who wins? Who lose? You lose, the body of Christ loses.
Speaker 3:I would rather give you one hour of my best than a hundred days of my worst. Yeah, one hour of my best will change your life. A hundred days of my worst will not change anything, and you just have to care enough about you that you make that happen for people. How I care about me is going to reflect on how I care about the people that I've been assigned to. Yeah, I'm not going to take what God's assigned me to do seriously. I'm not going to play with it. I'm going to do everything in my power. I'm going to turn my phone off this afternoon. Yesterday, my phone blew up. It was people called, called, called, called, and I was spending time with my son. You cannot get lost in ministry to the point it makes you miserable.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because ministry was never intended to produce misery. But we've got ministers operating out of misery, not ministry. Yeah, that's right. They're broken, they're sad, they're tired. Their families wonder when they're coming home. That's not a way to live. That is not God's plan for our lives. So yesterday I took my entire day. I wiped my slate clean. I didn't have anything on the book. So I told my son eight o'clock in the morning, I'm yours till the sun goes down. He earns it. That's my son. At the end of the day, I'm not going home with my members, I'm going home with my family.
Speaker 2:That's right, you hear what I'm saying to you.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean I don't love them and yeah, that had people in crisis yesterday. I need to question. I had pastors. What do I do? I got this. I promise you, if I don't answer your question today, you're gonna wake up tomorrow. God willing, you're gonna be all right.
Speaker 3:It's not dire straight. We just convinced ourselves from our fatigue we can't overcome. But that's just cause you're tired. Nobody's themselves when you're tired. Our spouse will argue with another spouse over fatigue more than any other reason, Because when fatigue sets in, faith walks out. I don't care what nobody says. You have to be your best and you are the only one that's gonna take you serious enough to do something about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I care yourself.
Speaker 1:I've told, even in our next steps class or in our leadership class. I tell our people look, if you're unhealthy, if you're tired, if you're done, you need to take a break. You don't need to keep pushing yourself into, like those pastors you were talking about. They just leave the ministry completely, at least pastor it, and leave the church. Like I care, the kids will sit out in service before you break down and you can't teach anyone. It's okay for them to sit out there. If the middle class and the littles class can't go, if children's church can't go, they've had plenty of services all over the world every single day where parents and kids listen, sit under the same word like it's okay.
Speaker 3:When I was little, children's church was sitting beside grandma in front of you. I'm just gonna tell you I turned out okay, I turned out okay.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be all right. We have a thing at our church, one of our quarter codes most people call them values, something like that is family, and we say that the church is only as healthy as the families that make it up, and so we strive to keep our families healthy, and a lot of times pastors would take that concept but not apply it to themselves. And I know you've got a lot to talk about when it comes to pastoral care, but I couldn't help but think about the Jethro and Moses interaction. That's our model at our church is that the weight is not all on me. If the weight is all on me, the church is unhealthy. And so what we do to kind of help for our pastoral self-care, my wife and our leaders, is when we do discipleship, we have those leaders, and those leaders' responsibility is the pastor, those you're connected to in your group. That way it's not all on me and we're sharing the load and it helps me feel like I don't have to do it all.
Speaker 2:And I think you know, growing up, you've been in ministry many, many more years than Pastor Jason has and you've probably seen it a lot worse than what it has been, or it may be worse now than it's ever been. But I know a lot of pastors where I mean, you get a headache. They call them the pastor. I just hear crazy stories where the people can't survive if the pastor is not there, and that's just got a shift in the church. If we put more responsibility in the pastor, then we do. God, you know, and we've got to run to create healthy models so that we can stay healthy, so we can go for the long term. You know, you talked a little bit about that, but pastors are dying early and it's just we're just so fatigued, overdoing ourselves.
Speaker 3:I want to teach you the most liberating word in ministry you ready, no Amen. The second part of what your question is why are these pastors doing that? Not only you know are they more or less proud, but they also have trust issues, micromanagement- yeah, scared of release. Trust, and that is a stemming result of insecurity. Now, it's no mystery. God often calls insecure people no mystery. David was insecure, yeah, Gideon, but Gideon was extremely insecure.
Speaker 3:Moses, I can't my tongue I can't insecure people or God's specialty. But he doesn't call you to remain that way and there are a lot of ministers that are insecure and you can always tell when someone's insecure because they mistake you walking in your confidence as arrogance. I'm telling you, if you don't know what real confidence looks like, you will mistake it. They thought Paul was arrogant. Paul said I'm not arrogant, not at all. You won't find anybody care about you as much as I care about you. I mean I'll violate the pork code. I'll eat a pork chop sandwich If it gives me an opportunity to talk to you about Jesus. I am not arrogant. I will violate a natural law just to win you to Jesus. And so you've got several people. Because they've got those trust issues, they gotta have their hands in everything. They gotta know what's going on.
Speaker 3:Over at Chirall I have a famous that I'm known for. I just tell them that's not my lane. It's not my lane. I couldn't tell you. Associate pastor called me last night, said hey, I know we've got this new keyboard player starting, as he know, that worship practice. You're gonna go over the songs at nine o'clock in the morning. I said I wouldn't know. You have to call the worship lady.
Speaker 2:It's not my lane.
Speaker 3:He said my bad, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut and stay in my lane, you know, because one of the things that I try to inspire other people to understand is, when you start crossing lanes, what Paul talks about is running a race. You disqualify yourself, and that's what causes frustrations, and there's nothing worse than a pastor that does not trust the flock God has given him. That in itself leads to burnout, cause you can't do everything, man. You weren't called to do everything, and so somehow we've got to figure out a way which I'm working on, I'm studying it out how to break the back of insecurity off of these men and women of God, because, listen, just because you start out a certain way does not mean that's how God wants you to finish. You have got to. You gotta confront your demons. You are responsible. That goes back to taking care of yourself on a spiritual note, because there's voices in your head that are lingering, that are talking you out of what God's trying to bring you into.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I believe those are the two biggest nightmares in the church right now. When it comes to physical health, we're insecure and we're very proud, and when you put those two together, I serve recipe for a natural disaster and it leads to a very unteachable person. The problem with that is I know in our conference there are a lot of churches out there that are underdeveloped, that do not have pastors right now. But what happens when you take an underdeveloped pastor and assign him or her to an underdeveloped church? That's a train wreck waiting to happen, cause both of them think they know what needs to be done because there is a way that seems right to a man, but guess who ends up dying in the process? Good people.
Speaker 1:So, absolutely, you were talking about the physical aspect of keeping your body healthy earlier. You wanna talk about that for a little bit?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was telling you guys that I was in a bad accident back in 2020. I was very overweight man, believe it or not. I was around 265 pounds, and I mean my blood sugar was bad. I didn't know that. My blood pressure was through the roof. Bad cholesterol was terrible. Good cholesterol was bad. Everything was anything in it.
Speaker 3:Hypothyroid, I mean everything you can think of my body was just a. It was a natural disease. It was a 9-11, all over again crashing, and so I went through a bout of depression due to the concussion that I had obtained in the accident, and so my wife, through somewhat of her own way of motivating me, got me into exercising a little bit, and when I finally realized just how bad off I was, I determined in my heart I was gonna do something about it. Yeah, because I had had several men of God in my life that were still in their prime, that because they didn't take care of themselves, they passed early, and I knew that the anointing cannot protect you from bad eating habits. I know we pray over greasy chicken.
Speaker 2:And we try our best to bless we bless.
Speaker 3:But hey, at the end of the day, all you're really saying is God, thank you for this meal. God can't reverse the curse of a collard green loaded down with fat. Back, man, I'm gonna tell you. It is what it is cause it's a natural law, right? So I started doing something about it and a couple of weeks after I had started taking my life seriously and my health seriously, an older gentleman sitting at a table. He looked across the table at me and said you know, god wants to do some big things in this world and he wants to do it through you, but he's gonna need your body to do it, so give him something to work with. That stuck with me. That's good. It stuck with me and it's the truth. This is what all of us. We have yet to see, what God longs to accomplish in our lives. It would blow our minds if you really saw you the way God saw you it would.
Speaker 3:I honestly believe that For God to generate a life and break the mold on it and say I only need one of that, that makes you very rare.
Speaker 3:That alone ought to inspire us to take care of it, because when Pastor Seth is gone, pastor Jason's gone. There will not be another, and so whatever assignment he's locked up in us when we're gone, that assignment's done, because nobody else is gonna catch up our slack. I believe procrastination is the thief of every generation, and what we procrastinate on never makes it, and it dies with us. Dr Miles Monroe said one time he said you know, the wealthiest place in the entire world is not the diamond mines in South Africa, it's not the oil wells in Saudi Arabia, the gold mines in America, it's the graveyard, because it's loaded with treasure that was never unearthed, because people did not take their life serious enough to believe they had anything valuable to them. When you recognize your value, you will take better care of yourself, because you know you've only got a limited amount of time on this earth to get it out, and I for one do not want to die taking back with me to heaven something God purposed me to deposit in time.
Speaker 3:Don't wanna do it, so I'm gonna do everything in my power to take care of me. That I can do, I'm gonna do all I can and trust God will do what I can. Now I can't help if I'm on the way home tonight and the car accident happens. That wasn't on me. You're saying what I'm saying, but that which I can control, I will control and I feel like we need to do a better job as ministers, taking care of ourselves.
Speaker 1:What if I drive by KFC and the bucket falls in my car? Where's God Take him to feed the homeless?
Speaker 3:brother.
Speaker 2:That's not it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, start that kitchen, that food kitchen, ministry that happens to me a lot when I'm walking through the grocery store and little devicates keep falling in my buggy and I tell the wife I don't know how this happened.
Speaker 3:I'll be asking God why can't they have when I go to the Christian chicken? Why can't they just drop stuff in my stomach?
Speaker 2:Right, right is there a?
Speaker 1:chicken. Yeah, now, absolutely take care of your body physically. Super, super important. I've even we talked about this, but I even said, I've even thought this myself Like I can't get up here and preach self discipline to people if I'm not disciplined myself. And, granted, I could be a lot more disciplined in my life.
Speaker 3:It's not just spiritual man, yeah yeah, it's not just over lust and desires, they're. Discipline is well rounded.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's in my every decision. I think, too, what would help us in that is not to take anything away from the decision making. That goes on with excellent living, but I think we pay more attention to the decisions we make than we do the consequences each decision generates. That's good, yeah, because Dr Miles Monroe taught me. He said consequences are more important than decisions. Is that if you think about the consequence? It will alter your decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So if I eat this bucket of chicken, what are the consequences of that? Yeah, you see what I'm saying. If I moderate the things that I like to eat, what are the consequences of that? You know what I'm saying? I don't have to stop by every time I drive by Starbucks and get me one of them. What's that large one Vente loaded down with that mocha, white chocolate with caramel drizzle? It's good Lord, I think it sanctified. But I don't think that's what God wants you to put in your system all the time either. And I'm not a health nut by any means, and it's different for everybody. I just take seriously the assignment God's given me and I know I'm a limited resource. Live that way, because nobody's gonna take care of you like you will.
Speaker 2:And you gotta quit getting those side of nuggets with your combos, man.
Speaker 1:I ain't gonna be on the phone with you, no more. When I order my lunch I said okay, let the Lord bless you. Take it number one and let eight piece nugget.
Speaker 2:Take it time, bitch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, very good, very good stuff. Let's talk a little bit about the spiritual, about taking care of yourself as a pastor or leader spiritually.
Speaker 3:I think the key to that is you need to have a voice in your life that holds you accountable.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's it, somebody, not somebody that's gonna agree with you. Bishop Tony Miller taught me this. He said you know everybody needs somebody in their life that when they get finished talking with you, you feel so dumb you wanna go crawl in the closet and pray.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Someone who's not intimidated by you, who is not impressed with you, but who believes in you and will push you to your best. They will literally reach in and pull things out of you. You had no idea you were carrying. I love those kinds of voices.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We choose to see. The oil was designed to flow from the head to the foot right. Most preachers like to get down there where the people at the feet throw the oil back up at us.
Speaker 2:And come on.
Speaker 3:That, but that's not the direction of the oil.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my goodness.
Speaker 3:The oil ain't supposed to flow up, it's supposed to come down. So I forget who it was. John Maxwell, I wanna say and if I'm wrong please forgive me it's not really important who you're over, so much as who you're under.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And you get to choose who you position your life under. There are people that I never fathomed I would ever ever have a conversation with until I found myself in rooms with them and I can't tell you how that door opened. But because I hungered and pursued it, it happened. And then I heard another mentor of mine say one time you know you have no right to anything you're unwilling to pursue, so to say you want that voice but you don't go after that voice. You don't want that voice. Yeah. And because your next in ministry will always be linked to a voice, Tony Miller said it like this one time. He said your destiny is locked up in somebody else.
Speaker 3:Elisha knew I will never be everything I can be without Elijah. When he touched me, just the brush of his anointing that told me that something in him belongs to me. So he was willing to abandon to the point he got rid of it, to the point of no return Everything he had to follow, something he was unsure of and it was the voice. And if you study out their life, I mean Elijah didn't make it easy. He was pretty rude to the guy yeah, go back. Every time they had a conflict I wish you just go back, I wish you. He acted like he didn't want him, but Elisha wasn't worried about how rude he was. He kept his focus on what he was carrying. He was convinced belonged to him. That, apart from this gentleman, I'll never get it. Nowadays, everybody's so offended because everybody's so competitive.
Speaker 3:And I don't get that, because you have no competition. You have none. You're a grand original. How can I contend with Seth? God put something in him he didn't put in me. He has no competition. He's a grand original. How can I contend with you? It can't be done. We have no competition because every one of us has a different assignment and we can't limit it to church and pastoring and all of this other stuff. That's just the platform God gave us to exercise and to refine our gift and assignment. That's not the final call to our life. You were made for more than just preaching on Sundays. I'm sorry, Everyone, if you limit me to that. I quit right now because I believe what God hit in me is bigger than Sunday morning.
Speaker 1:Yeah sure, come on, man, it's bigger than Sunday morning.
Speaker 3:You never know who's gonna hear you and say I need you to come to Europe, I need you to come to South America. And then you begin to realize that it was that platform that opened that door for your assignment to be released. I look at Tim Tebow man. Tim Tebow, yeah, he was a great football player, but that wasn't his assignment. Look at the platform yeah, for sure that game put him on. And now he's talking to people that otherwise he would never talk. So when people got upset because they didn't re-sign him, tim wasn't. He wasn't worried about it, he was doing his preaching, he was in his assignment. So I need somebody in my life that believes in me enough, that sees what I have to offer that I'm willing to give myself the answer to, because they're not only gonna watch over me for the care of my future, but they're also gonna care for my spirituality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that?
Speaker 3:Who do we answer to?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Who do we answer?
Speaker 1:to you say that too. I believe I was listening to. I just wrote the book All of God, which I don't remember his name.
Speaker 3:I've heard of the book, but I can't remember his name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was saying in the book that he went and had a conversation with Jim Baker in prison and he was talking to Jim Baker and he was like Jim, how did you like? How did you get here? Did you fall in love with Jesus? And he said, no, I love Jesus. Jesus loves me. And he said, but I quit fearing God. He said I didn't have the fear of God in me anymore. So therefore, what he was doing he never felt convicted of and he didn't fear what God was doing in his life. And I would argue that even some of this, some of these things that pastors are going through, is they don't fear God. So some of the spiritual weakness that they have is because they don't even answer to him.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't know the name of the church, but a friend of my wife's. She's not really in church like she should be, but it's God's dealing with her and her daughter. I believe, based on the way she explained it received, she's a teenager, 13,. She received baptism and the Holy Spirit. So she's at this church, very free, very free. I don't know if they're a denomination or whatever they are, but they go to this church. God's moving and she's sitting here watching her daughter just go off in the spirit. And she knows her daughter and her daughter is shaking, crying and it's just coming out. But when I'm in the prayer language, she's going to town and she don't remember it. And then she looks at her mom and says, mom, will you come down to the front pray with me? She's like no, you go, I'm good, I'm gonna let you have all of that. And so that church has rocked this woman's mind. She's blown her world. Now she's really confused because word has just got out that the pastor of that church just got arrested from bezeling money. And she's confused and she says how in the world would God move in a place like that when such filth was going on?
Speaker 3:I said look, hey, king Saul was as dirty as they come, that's right. He put a price tag on David's head. He sent three cents of messengers to go arrest David, to kill him. But when the messengers got to Mount Rama wherever Samuel was with him and they saw the prophets prophesying, they started prophesying and never came back. So Saul said I'll go get you myself. And so Saul's going to kill David and gets interrupted in his mission because of prophets prophesying.
Speaker 3:And guess what Saul ends up doing? Prophesied you don't have to have a sinless life for God to move in your life. Because if God had his number, had his target on your daughter, god will wade through the worst filth of sin to get her. You're not safe when God sets his sights on you. It don't matter where. David said if I make my bed in hell, he's there. You can escape God. He said I love this. At the end of that he said you know, the darkness is like you, for the dark and the light are the same. So it doesn't matter what's going on in a moment. Just because you are doing things that look very spiritual, it doesn't mean you're safe. If God would you solve a prophesy on his way to kill God's chosen. Come on now, just because listen, I forget which pastor said it. He said everything that glitters ain't gold Sometimes it's just glitter.
Speaker 3:It's just glitter. And so that is the purpose behind having a spiritual voice in your life, a spiritual father. What was it we said? Paul said you have thousands, 10,000 of instructors. It's not your issue. Your issue is you don't have many fathers. What do fathers do? They affirm, they assign, they release. And so we've got all these people out here who are starting to do their own thing, who have not been affirmed, who have not been assigned, who definitely have not been released. They just want to do their thing.
Speaker 2:And that is the most dangerous thing, that's right.
Speaker 3:No accountability.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my pastor would tell me one is don't get a bunch of cheerleaders in your circle, and you kind of alluded to that. But there's two things that he said when it comes to getting and creating a circle of voices in your life. It's. The first thing is is if you look in your circle and they all look like you found another circle. And the second thing is is if you're the smartest one in your circle, get another circle.
Speaker 2:Come on, son, that's right See that's the thing I know for us as young ministers. I've sat at rooms and there's other young ministers who are around the same age as me or maybe a little older, and a lot of those times I try to just sit and sit and listen to me because we're young. I'm young in ministry. This year will be 12 years in ministry. This is my first year going into year two of actually lead pastoring and what I found out is that it's best to just listen. Listen to the voices that God has placed in your life for instruction, correction opportunities, those things you're talking about, those fathers.
Speaker 2:The problem is is we don't think we need it. We think we got all we knew because we, the Lord, has given you all that you need. You go and run with it, but no, no, no. You've got to steward what God's given you and you steward that through being fathered by people who's been in it longer than you. And though, we've got to find and raise a young generation of leaders who are coming up because they're coming back the statistics show 18% of millennials are coming back to church and stepping back in so they're coming and we've got to get them connected to the right voices so that they can actually grow and develop and lead and do the things that God's calling them to do. But we've got to change this counter-cultural thing to where I don't need nobody Well.
Speaker 3:I like what you said. A man put it to me like this one time and everybody knows if I called his name, you know him. He'd say listen, if you're the smartest one at your table, you're at the wrong table. And when you find your table, realizing you're the dumbest one at the table, don't say nothing.
Speaker 2:Be quiet, be quiet.
Speaker 3:Grandfather said that's why God gave you two ears and one mouth he wants you to listen more he wants you to talk, right there you go.
Speaker 1:So how do you recommend staying healthy spiritually outside of finding the right table?
Speaker 3:There is a voice, when you hear it and you have to pursue this. This is a search and sometimes in your pursuit you will not find it. It will find you. Everything in the kingdom is upside down. You give, then you receive. You humble, then you're exalted. You search, it finds you. You have to put yourself out there and in that pursuit there is a voice. When they speak to you, it'll make your baby leap. It causes something inside of you that either you gave up on, you lost sight of or you never knew existed. It will spring to life in you. That is a voice you need to give your ear to. You need to do everything in your power to draw yourself to that individual, give yourself to that individual and ask that individual to hold you accountable. And if it's a true voice, they will not deny you, because they understand the power of relationship.
Speaker 3:And we are doing a bad job at healthy relationships because we make promises, man, that we don't keep. We advertise yet we don't produce, and all of that is an end result of a lack of relationship. So in my case there are three voices in my life and we're talking man. I had it one time, as little as just one voice that I really didn't see, but maybe once every year, year and a half. But we communicated a lot.
Speaker 3:I never made a decision without running it through this individual and a lot of times I would just ask a question to ask a question and he would fire back what do you think? Because he already knew, I knew. I would just wanting him to tell me, and he was that good of a voice and I would say, well, this is what I think, and he'd say, well, you better not do it till you know. Yeah, because sometimes the best decision concerning an issue is not making one right now. Is it because you have to suffer the consequence? If it's the wrong one, how sure are you? Are you willing to pay that price? And if you can't say yes, don't make that decision.
Speaker 3:You need to pray more Yep, and that kind of wisdom really keeps you in check. Now I went as far as having seven voices in my life. Now I'm down to three, but they're still very profound voices and I think it. I don't think it is has it contributed vastly to whatever level of success that I've had, and so I think the thing that excites me most about it is Now I find myself drawn to people that I see who are struggling, who are suffering. I want to help them because I was in that chair. I stood in that stance. I know the feeling at 9, 30, 10 o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night, everybody's going to bed and you can't sleep because you were so stressed out, worrying about what do I do, how do I handle, what's going on.
Speaker 3:Yeah you know, I've had things handed to me, man that just I For I just wanted to quit. I didn't want to deal with that, yeah because, I didn't know how to deal with that. And you don't have to. You don't have to pass very long for you run up on something. Man. You're like, oh, I didn't sign up for none of that, yeah. And then everybody's looking at you yeah, yeah, to make a decision and it don't matter which decision you make.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you wrong, you're wrong, yeah. So you just kind of roll the dice and say God, the Lord, have his way, he casting lots.
Speaker 1:But it don't, it don't work that way, you know.
Speaker 3:And so you, you need a voice in your life that helps you through that. Absolutely. Because here's the thing Even if you make the bad decision and you go back to the voice, that's the voice that'll pick you back up. Man, yeah, and if you don't have someone to help you recover when you fall, chances are you may not recover.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I can tell you I haven't been in ministry really as long as either one of you, but I've got a lot of life experience through being in law enforcement, like I've seen before I come into ministry. I've seen what what people's hearts were really like Long before I knew that about the spiritual aspect of it, and so had I not had that experience and knew what people were like beforehand. Now, religious people in a whole other whole, another whole, another group, I promise you that. But but seeing the people at some of the I would say the worst people but since I'm the worst people at their worst, some of the best people at their worst, you start taking people's freedom, freedoms and liberties away from. That's right. You'll see some a different side of people saved on save that you would never expect to see.
Speaker 1:And so had I not already Experienced that in my life before becoming a pastor and being in the ministry, I can tell you there have been days, even when I first started, where I'm just like Lord, are you sure? Are you sure this is where you want me? And had I not had the voices of my life you're talking about, I can't guarantee that I'd still be here. I'd say that I always say that I would probably would, because I fear the Lord and I'm I know what God's called me to do. I know, without a doubt, god's called me to be here and be the pastor at cross point. So I can't say that I would walk away. But don't believe I haven't called, I haven't thought about calling the bishops and Bishop, are you sure?
Speaker 3:That's funny. You said it because I remember of well. I was a pastor in Monroe, North Carolina, and and the church was booming.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:It was growing so fast. It was terrifying me. I just didn't know how to lead and I had all these people coming in from Charlotte. We're familiar with ministry. We need this and we need to start doing that, and I'm shrinking back like I just preach yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't think about none of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've never done that and, and I remember asking God Are you sure, are you sure I'm supposed to fear? And God would ask me back Are you sure? Yeah, are you sure? Because it doesn't matter what I'm sure of, I need you to be sure, mm-hmm. And so I'd have to search myself and no matter which way I looked or turned, I knew where I was supposed to be. Yeah, I only wanted out because of what I didn't have. Yeah, everybody wants out because of what they don't have. And it's not a material thing, it's not a resource, it's a voice. That's it.
Speaker 3:You'd be amazed, the longevity of sustaining power you could have if you had just one voice in your life to say hey, let me talk to you and help navigate All of the vicissitudes that you're going to face in ministry. Because they've got experience, people will tell you all the time I've heard pastor say this I'm stuck in a rut. Mm-hmm, I'm stuck in a rut. I don't know how to get out. That's your problem. You're not stuck in a rut, you lack knowledge. Mm-hmm, somebody knows what you don't know. If you have a conversation with them, guess what happens to your rut? You come out of it. Yeah. So the only thing, the only real thing that stands between where we are and where we want to be in life. It's information Mm-hmm, and somebody has what we don't have. Jose said this is why my people are destroyed.
Speaker 1:Like I know, I'm not you know.
Speaker 3:That's why you need that voice now. You can't just go to somebody because he's your favorite preacher, yeah, no, no, it's not about the person, it's about the voice, because our lives were designed to move according to a voice. And the dangerous thing about voices which is also the same thing, the the promising thing about voices is this is all the same across the board. Voices are designed to take your life somewhere. Choose which voice you give your ear to wisely. That's it right, yeah?
Speaker 1:and then Right, you got anything else to just short that you, you feel like you want to share about physical and spiritual Health.
Speaker 3:No, I think. Basically that's it, man. If we can get that accomplished, you'll see a much healthier clergy. Yeah, and it's not difficult, but you got to be willing to submit. And then can I say that? Can I define what submission is, please? Submission is not submission when you get along with somebody. Mm-hmm, submission is submission when there's a disagreement. Yeah, you tell me all day long, you submit to me, but when I make an executive decision you don't agree with and you get mad. You ain't submissive. Yeah, all right. My wife says I want Wendy's. I don't like Wendy's. Mm-hmm, no frown on Wendy's. I don't like Wendy's. Yeah me, I would rather go the subway.
Speaker 3:Good gracious because you can eat fresh. Look at Jared man. Jared still looks good.
Speaker 2:He looks good making bad decisions. I know I'll pray for us.
Speaker 3:So what do I say to my wife? Yes, okay, we go into Wendy's that submission? Yeah, simplest form, right. And so until pastors learn you can't do everything, yeah, but you can do something, yeah. Well, god's called you to do amen. And the only way you're gonna be effective at that is to take care of yourself, because you're the only one now I watch. This is good that we close right here. You're not responsible for people, you're responsible to them.
Speaker 3:You're only responsible for your own life. You embrace that truth, a burden lifts and you realize they are not all the responsibility. I thought they were to me, because I have to model what I preached before them. That's what Jesus said. People miss this. He says I want you to go forth into all the world. I want you to baptize them in the name of Father, son, holy Spirit, teaching them everything. Here it is. You observed me do. This is a watch and learn relationship.
Speaker 3:It's not what I preach on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights or in a conference or a leadership session. It changes your life. When I talk about it, you should have already seen me do it first. Yeah, that's right. And when I talk about it, say, oh, so that's what that was. But if I'm not taking care of myself, it's a foreign sound. Yeah, you see what I'm saying. And so I want people to observe I'm healthy. I want people to observe I take care of myself. Spiritually, I'm guarded. I don't let every voice in. I'll give you a couple of minutes. I will. I'll talk to anybody, but if you don't make my baby leap, I'm gonna lift my finger and say excuse me. I'm gonna walk to the other side of the room.
Speaker 2:Is that why you're complaining about your conversation? Sure, I love it.
Speaker 3:I cannot contend with you Use big words I don't understand, but anyway, yeah, that's that's. That's a good note right there. Just remember, you're not responsible for anybody, you're just responsible to yeah that's good.
Speaker 1:That's liberating right there, yeah, I mean. Jesus preached and he said and he talking about the blood and talking about the his body, eat of my flesh and drink of my blood. And people got up and walked away. He didn't beg him to stay, he shared truth with me, was responsible to them.
Speaker 2:That's right, but not for the days of begging people to stay over If you got to beg him to come.
Speaker 3:You got to beg him to stay. You know we talk about that all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you want to be here. We'll see you later yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, as I think you know, in ministry. So one thing that stuck out to me I know you had went to elevation at one point. We know elevations boom and they got an awesome worship team and they're doing their own thing. But when you said Ferdic got up and he was talking about during that leadership training you went to he was talking about like you're not called to be what we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We're different members, same body. He said we didn't build a gymnasium because we're not called to be a gym. Yeah, and so you have to be comfortable and confident in what God's called you to be.
Speaker 1:That's right, in order for you to be able to do it without without somebody reached out to me earlier in the week and they're building a brand, I mean a big, beautiful sanctuary here in town and I'm like man, that is awesome. We need a staple like that in Scotland County. That's going to be amazing. And they are. They are busting at the walls. They have two services that are that are exploding and they're having to build another building just to meet demand of the people, to be able to housing the capacity up to capacity and I'm like that is wonderful, that is great. Like I'm not in competition with you, that's right. Like I wish I wish we were bursting. It seems quite like that. But at the same time, hey, if that's what God's called you to do and your minister in the people and you're saving souls, go forth and do great things, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:With all these pastors out there who want the big, big, big, big church but don't like the big, big, big, big problems. Yeah, that's right More sheep mean more sheep dung right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you're right yeah so I remember I was sitting in a session with Bishop TD Jakes one time and it was about 130 of us and we were in Dallas, texas, for his 30th anniversary, and I had met the gentleman that was over the Potter's House, pastoral Alliance in Matthews, and we were just I was actually shopping with my wife and he just happened to be in there. He introduced himself. We just started chit-chatting. I told him I was a pastor in Monroe and he said yeah, man, I'm originally from here but I work over at the Potter's House in Dallas, texas. Maybe you've heard of Bishop Jakes. I said oh yeah, I know I've heard of Bishop Jakes. Everybody's heard of Bishop Jakes.
Speaker 3:He said look, man. He says I want you to give me an email address. I'm going to send you some invitations. You and your wife cover your flight, get up here, we'll put you up in a room. There's about 130,. He said about 130, 150, but it was really just 130 people there and it was just an intimate setting where Bishop would just pour out to these guys. And so we got to go. And I won't ever forget it, man, it was just one of the most amazing things that had ever happened in life. And he had made the comment one day. He says everybody wants what I have. He said but if I throw these keys to that church at you, you better duck, because what you see is what we want you to see. Yeah, yeah. Dr Sam Shan said it like this If you go to a five star restaurant, what goes on in the kitchen looks nothing like what goes on in the dining area.
Speaker 3:In the dining area. It's soothing music.
Speaker 1:Plates look good Everything.
Speaker 3:You go back in that kitchen. It's World War three.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:People cussing and fussing and mad and fighting and slipping and tripping, yeah, and he said that's the same thing in church. What you see on Sunday morning is what we want you to see, yeah, but the guts behind what makes that work, the wheels and the machinery, is what we do in the day to day. Yeah, the not so pleasant conversations addressing the not so pleasant issues in life, and all of that it goes right back to our physical, our spiritual well-being. Because if you're not, like I said in the beginning, I'm just going to stick with this If you aren't at your best, the church you're assigned is not going to be at its best either. Everything concerning the condition of your house flows out of the condition of your life. That's good.
Speaker 3:Healthier you, healthier them, amen, yeah, so if not for yourself, do it for the rest of the people that you've been assigned to serve. Right yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. I think we'll wrap it right there, brother, have you got anything? I'm good, pastor TC. Hmm, straight, all right. Well, you know how we like to wrap this. Let's wrap this with the priestly blessing from number six and 24. The 26 says the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine upon you. The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. Amen. Hey, we love you. We're looking forward to this next episode. We got coming up to Make sure you tune into it. God bless you.
Speaker 1:We'll see you next time Later.