Are accountability and correction within the church making you uncomfortable? It's a subject that can't be shied away from, and we're here to tackle it head-on. Pastor Jason, alongside Pastor Seth Odom, feels incredibly privileged to welcome Bishop Morris Smith from the IPHC to our latest episode. His wisdom bridges the gap between scripture and practical application, offering us invaluable insights into the necessity of these disciplines for leadership and our personal spiritual journeys. Prepare for a deep dive into how we can face these tough but indispensable concepts with grace and integrity.
Imagine a community where everyone is committed to mutual growth, where correction is an act of love and accountability isn't a dirty word. This episode paints that picture, as we share how transparency and openness in our relationships—from marriage to ministry—can guide us towards a fuller, more authentic faith. We talk about the critical nature of correction, examining biblical narratives and our own pastoral experiences to emphasize its healing power. Through candid discussions and personal stories, we shed light on the transformative power of embracing these difficult conversations and the profound impact they have on steering individuals and the church towards healthier paths.
Navigating the waters of social media, we also explore the importance of setting an example and being accountable in the digital age. Correction may be a sensitive issue, but we approach it with prayer, wisdom, and a heartfelt understanding of the fears that often accompany it. By fostering strong, trust-based relationships and maintaining a commitment to constructive feedback, we can build a church community that thrives on honesty and support. So, tune in for a heartfelt and thought-provoking session that promises to equip you for a life of integrity and spiritual maturity.
Are accountability and correction within the church making you uncomfortable? It's a subject that can't be shied away from, and we're here to tackle it head-on. Pastor Jason, alongside Pastor Seth Odom, feels incredibly privileged to welcome Bishop Morris Smith from the IPHC to our latest episode. His wisdom bridges the gap between scripture and practical application, offering us invaluable insights into the necessity of these disciplines for leadership and our personal spiritual journeys. Prepare for a deep dive into how we can face these tough but indispensable concepts with grace and integrity.
Imagine a community where everyone is committed to mutual growth, where correction is an act of love and accountability isn't a dirty word. This episode paints that picture, as we share how transparency and openness in our relationships—from marriage to ministry—can guide us towards a fuller, more authentic faith. We talk about the critical nature of correction, examining biblical narratives and our own pastoral experiences to emphasize its healing power. Through candid discussions and personal stories, we shed light on the transformative power of embracing these difficult conversations and the profound impact they have on steering individuals and the church towards healthier paths.
Navigating the waters of social media, we also explore the importance of setting an example and being accountable in the digital age. Correction may be a sensitive issue, but we approach it with prayer, wisdom, and a heartfelt understanding of the fears that often accompany it. By fostering strong, trust-based relationships and maintaining a commitment to constructive feedback, we can build a church community that thrives on honesty and support. So, tune in for a heartfelt and thought-provoking session that promises to equip you for a life of integrity and spiritual maturity.
Hey, it's another episode of Pastor to Pastor with myself, pastor Jason and Pastor Seth Odom. What's up, family? Good to see you on here. Yeah, it is so great to be back on the podcast again. This new season is full of awesome, awesome things. We're doing some new things.
Speaker 2:We're coming in hot this season.
Speaker 1:We're coming in hot this season with all kind of content, and we're looking forward to growing this thing even more. Every time we sit down and talk, expect to get something from it Absolutely.
Speaker 2:We're not going to waste your time because we ain't wasting our time either we're going to grow this year and be quit to be challenged. We got a good conversation today, Pastor Jay.
Speaker 1:It's not going to be a. I'm going to put it like this. One lady in my congregation, whom I love dearly, says it's tight but it's right.
Speaker 2:It's tight, but it's right. I like it, I love it.
Speaker 1:We're going to talk today about accountability and we're going to talk about correction. It's not something that's very easily received or given Listen.
Speaker 2:now we don't be cussing on this podcast now.
Speaker 1:It's almost like a curse word, not only in the church but also in the culture. And that culture has kind of creeped into the church. Don't you get me started already.
Speaker 2:I'm ready now, yeah, but hey, check this out.
Speaker 1:We have an awesome opportunity to bring in our bishop from the IPHC. He's the South Carolina Conference Bishop, bishop Morris Smith. I thought, man, there are awesome ways to be able to At his level. There's no doubt in my mind. He's brought, he's had to bring, correction, he's had to be corrected. Yeah, I think he'd be a great person, a great guest on the show, to talk about what correction looks like. So we're going to, for the first time ever, we're going to ring in our guest speaker or our guest on the show. Let's do it, the bishop. So let's call the bishop real quick.
Speaker 2:You ready? Let's be good. Yeah, stay tuned. Let's get into our perspectives and how, while we do it, while we need it, and how do we correct properly. It's going to be good. We're giving bishop Morris a call. Just get his input. It's going to be good for us and good for you, especially if you're a leader or a laity, or. Good morning.
Speaker 1:Good morning bishop. How are you sir?
Speaker 3:I am doing well. How are you?
Speaker 1:We are blessed and highly favored. Amen, Good to hear you, bishop.
Speaker 3:I'm doing good. I had to get my connection here. I can hear you now. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Okay, no worries, sir. So we are on the podcast, we're recording the episode today and, as you know, we wanted to call and get your take. First of all, a little background about yourself, if you've got time, and then we'll dive right into correction and accountability within the church.
Speaker 3:All right. Well, morris Smith presently served as a superintendent of the South Carolina Conference. The International Pentecostal Hall in this church in South Carolina Pastored for 21 years and been 13 years as the Sampership Ministries Director, and now presently doing this. I have a beautiful wife, two daughters, two good son-in-laws and five grandchildren, and I'm a blessed man. I'm a blessed man for sure. I have the privilege to do what I do with a great family of health and team around me. So to God be the praise and the glory.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, and I'll tell you from the bottom of our heart we greatly appreciate you, we love you and we're so glad to have you as our bishop, and we're excited about the things you're doing in the South Carolina Conference.
Speaker 3:Amen, thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:So, with your background, I can tell you that you've at some point had to. The correction has, and accountability has absolutely been in your wheelhouse. You've had to, you've had to experience it and deal with it, I'm sure.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I have.
Speaker 1:So would you like to share a little bit about why it's so important in the church and why it's needed?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. You know I've been thinking about. You know where do you begin. You know to tackle two subjects like this accountability and correction.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Because they're both so sensitive subjects when you talk about people that you pastor, maybe even family members, and then especially family in the church, right, and I think we have to start with. You know why is accountability in the beginning? You know, if you want to start with accountability so important, I do believe a pastor of the scripture I'll start with would be like Roman 14 and 12. Excuse me about that. It says you know, it teaches us to give an account of ourselves to God. So first of all, he's the one that we give an accountability to, and we know we live in a world that even the business world itself, for the most part, they have certain standards, they have teams and they expect certain loyalty and things from their company to represent the company.
Speaker 3:And I think, as followers of Christ, more than anything, I really think the world gets in their guidelines from the Bible, even though they may not say that at times. But scripture is clear and we're called to be the kind of leader to those that are around us and set an example with good behavior, but even more than that, with godly behavior, Right, and so we asked a question you know what? What does it mean to be accountable? And I know we live in a world where it's me, myself and I and everybody does their own thing for the most part in the world, because everybody's so consumed. But, simply put, when you ask about accountability, it just means being answerable to someone, and we are answerable first and foremost to the Lord. But yet we need each other, like I need you and you need me, as brothers in the Lord, and as brothers and sisters in the Lord, to be held responsible. You know, to help us be responsible for each other, right.
Speaker 3:Therefore it leads well, it does, you're exactly right and to make sure that our walk and our talk match considerably. Of course, and if I need correction I know I'm not perfect and I know others aren't perfect, but I have to be honest enough with myself to receive that correction and to have someone speak to me or we speak to them. You know, in in love right.
Speaker 3:So I guess that would be kind of my definition of accountability. And I do believe God's got a plan, you know, for that, for us, with accountability, I believe his highest purpose as to us to follow his son, you know, clearing any kind of faulty beliefs but making sure that we Follow the truth. That's, that's, that's in the word of God, to follow his plan and he'll keep us on the track of maturity. David, you know, gives those examples for everything that he went through, right, and Psalms is for you know of what he went through and how he trusted God and asked for forgiveness and all of that. But the Lord helps us to mature and to connect with others and to represent him, you know, to represent him well right and I've always talked about, when it comes to maturity, it like it's.
Speaker 1:It's not that you make a mistake, but that you don't make it again, or that you, or that you allow it to to correct your behavior in the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, yes to to learn, you know, from, from those mistakes and I know that can be a challenge, you know sometimes to do that but I think, first and foremost, if I myself can make sure that I'm Accountable to God right and then you know, for an example, my wife and I, we, we, we, we certainly hold each other accountable, like, for an example you know she has access to my computer, she has access to my phone, she knows my code, yeah, there is absolutely nothing that I withhold from her right and wouldn't, and I'm just saying the key to that too is and I'm just using husbands and their and their spouses as an example, because I know that there are some that are not married that may be listening.
Speaker 3:They may say, well, hey, I'm not married, I don't, I don't have, but you can have a friend, right, I'd say a true brother or true sister. Yeah, that loves you enough that you've allowed them to speak into your life, that if they see something, not that they're judging, but at the same time, I think we can misapply that verse of scripture too and not use it in a hypocritical way. But if I care about you enough, I see Something in your life that's not lining up with scripture. Not that I'm a a spiritual policeman, but I genuinely care. And if I know you genuinely care about me, then I expect you to come to talk to me, right, and help hold me accountable. But it goes back to my relationship with the Lord first, and then my wife helping to be my accountability Partner.
Speaker 3:Yeah and then even in this office, you know some that we work with what we're family. And if we're family, then I expect you to Say something you know to me and me to you, if it may be that's.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting thing that you brought up. You're talking about the relationship. It's the same way for my wife and I, like we and we're talking about accountability within, within a relationship, which is which is a whole other topic really. I mean it is. It's really good, really good stuff to chew on, but I just wrote down. You know, accessibility is equal to accountability, so you have to be open and be willing to allow people access in order to, in order to allow them to hold you accountable.
Speaker 3:Well, you do, brother, and I know that's an element of trust and I know sometimes it can even make us uncomfortable because If the if the Lord uses that person I'm not saying on a regular basis, not that I need a constant correction In that particular case, but you don't want to look at that person coming down. Okay, what is it now? What have I done now? But I do believe in that accountability Because the Lord had it with his disciples.
Speaker 1:He taught them to have it with with each other, all right, but I to be able to do that, yeah, I think, though I think even like you, when you're looking at at Abraham like accessibility, how much access will you allow God to have in your life? And the more access you allow him in your life, the more accountability he can bring to you, the more correction he can bring to you. And so, yeah, I mean, are you willing to lay Isaac down? I mean, are you, are you willing to lay yourself on down? What are you holding on to that you want to allow access to?
Speaker 3:That's good, brother, that you bring that up, because you know the Lord already knows every open door and our heart and Anything that, because there's another scripture that says you know, man's heart is deceitfully wicked.
Speaker 3:Who can know it? But God knows it and and he knows those that are his, he knows those that are sincerely endeavoring to follow him. And that account accountability, you know if, if I go somewhere and I'm in a hotel and I'm by myself, I know what my temptations are and the best thing for me to do, for an example, would be, you know, keep myself Occupied in the room with maybe reading, and really just don't cut the TV on, not that I'm gonna look for something, but I'm saying just flipping through the channels, something's pop up. Or even on your screen, you know, for your computer and having certain Watches on there. With the accountability, anything that we can do to enhance, to keep our feet to the fire Right is so, is so important to keep our promises to people, to help people with Temptation, to help grow in their faith, anything that we can do Because it matters and it works Absolutely to you to help each other In their relationship with the Lord. It's just so important.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, which brings me to. You're just a well of knowledge and you're bringing up so much and I'm thinking about it, I'm just like you know it's also to what do you allow access? You're talking about, you know, watching things on TV, scrolling like there what do you allow an access to your eyes and to your gates that could probably plant seeds that would allow you to be tempted or allow you to be sinful or or do something that God wouldn't agree with? So that is, that is that is great in and of itself, just thinking about that, like what do you allow an access that you want to allow access to God?
Speaker 3:Right, right. And if we don't allow access, even though God knows it's there, then it's harder for him to work with. I've got to be open and sincere, you know, with with that relationship, I try to tell people like I told myself many, many years ago I rambled, I was away from God. I was one of those individuals that, as a younger, younger Person, I got into a situation God, get me out of this, help me, I'll serve you. And I did that for some period of time, thought I was making deals with God, bargaining with him, and then finally he said enough, so nothing. I think God gets us to a place where enough is enough. And he, he draws the line in the sand and says either follow me all the way or go the other way, and I think that is the beginning of a full surrender. And I think that's the beginning of a full surrender and I think that's the key.
Speaker 3:I think, if, if we can fully surrender everything to him and stay on the potter's wheel and allow God to mold us and shape us daily, and Stay on the altar daily, voluntarily, running to that altar, you know, tying ourselves down with cords of love, and say God, I really think that, for surrender will help with with, I would dare say, 99% of the struggles and the temptations that come our way because we have fully Surrendered.
Speaker 3:It's not that the enemy's not going to tempt us, it's the fact of knowing that I'm accountable to him and that maybe you're gonna call me and say hey, mars, how did your day go today? Did anything happen? You know, is there anything I can pray for you about? And I will be able to say you know, man, you know what I struggled in this area today. Help, help me pray about it. I can say, you know, I Was swift to hear and so to speak, and I did not yield. And you know, god, you know. So thank you for your prayers. But I it goes back to that force surrender, and I think people struggle when there's not a full surrender. I really do right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what we get from here is really this reality Is that it's hard for you to hold people accountable when you're not accountable to God yourself, especially in leadership. We see this throughout the church, where people Trending in what we're motivational speakers now we're influencers now there's really no pastors pastoring and leading who Look like they've they've fallen off the wagon, but still trying to hold people accountable. It's what we see on social media too. Past Jason and this we we see people who are posting scriptures, but a few days before they were cussing and sending sinful things and but yet we want to hold people accountable when they do wrong, but yet we have no accountability to God in our in ourselves, and so, as leaders, we've got to make sure we have a healthy relationship with Christ and our accountable to
Speaker 2:him before we Can't even think to step foot into being accountable to other people. We tell our church this when we've been, people go through growth track is as your pastor, you're giving me stewardship over you. You're get. You're now accountable not only to God that you're accountable to me and you've given me space into your life to hold you accountable, but on the flip side of that, I'm also Allowing you to hold me accountable Whether there's something that I do or I say or something you see that is questionable to the word. You now have space to speak into my life as much as I have to speak into yours, of course, at different levels, but we've got to get back to getting accountable to God first and foremost, before we even step foot in the trying to lead others.
Speaker 3:That's right, that's good, brother, I Appreciate you sharing that. You made me think of something In Ephesians 4 1. I recently preached Because the Lord has really been just dealing with me About our callings and the math tools that he's given us to, to where it is a calling that is holy, it is a calling right that he has tailor made for you and for me. And so many times we think, well, god, I'm gonna alter you, I'm gonna change you. God says no, no, no, no, no. That this calling this for God to say I'm the one that's changing you, I'm preparing you.
Speaker 3:And he says in Ephesians 1, paul said and and he was actually in prison when he said this, but I think it's a double meaning of the word. He said as a prisoner. He said, therefore, I a prisoner Of the Lord. He said beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation when with you are called. Then he goes into. You know walking with loneliness and meekness and all of that.
Speaker 3:But here's the thing God I saw when I studied that in the original language, paul is is grabbing us by our lapel and he's looking us in the eye and he's saying listen, go back and remember when God first saved you and what that did for you, and the zeal and the desire and the hunger and the thirst that it gave you to pursue God with everything that was within you, like Elisha pursuing Elijah when that mantle hit him. But here's the thing he mentions there. He said make sure that what what you're saying, ways as much of another thing. I said what do you mean? He says make sure that what you're saying, that your walk, weighs as much as your talk.
Speaker 3:And Basically he's saying live what you preach right live what you preach and listen, man, I see so much on social media, just like you, and I get frustrated. And I know it can be useful, good things, and it should be, but for some it's just a platform to. Anyway, I won't get into all that, I'm just saying we know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But may God help us yeah, right, be accountable, even even in the social media, even to realize that people are watching us and that we ought to be an example of the Lord. And I'm not saying I'm perfect, I know I'm not perfect, but at the same time there is an accountability and the word of God is our, our absolute.
Speaker 3:We live in a world here's, here's our issue today. We live in a world that doesn't want absolute. We live in a world that doesn't want guides, a Straight and narrow path. But we, you and I, as Christians, that's our accountability, that's our owners manual that God says. You know it's like a cars owners manual. You do everything that that manual tells you to do keep the oil change, tires rotated, service that car will last you over a hundred thousand miles. But if you don't, it's not. And it's the same way with you and I, with the word of God holding us accountable to do what it says, and God will. God will bless, people bless.
Speaker 1:Right. So quick question as we, as we shift here a little bit, I'm sure, when it comes to bringing correction to somebody, whether it's another pastor, whether it's a Member within the congregation, or what have you found, what wisdom could you share with us on when it comes to correction? We've talked about the accountability. How were to be accountable? Now let's talk just a little bit about correction, right.
Speaker 3:Let me give you an illustration to start this off. Then I thought about it and read this to you. I'm rid of a story of a gentleman that had a boat. It wasn't a huge boat or anything like that, but he was Working on his compass and he had his knife and he was working on it but the very, very small end of his knife, the tip of it, broke off in the compass. But he didn't, he didn't really pay too much attention to it and, you know, put it back and all of that. However, because he didn't remove it, that little bit of metal pulled the compass off its true reading, which resulted in that ship running a ground, that small ship running a ground. Well, and he needed to correct that, but he let it go, and it's those small Boxes, so to speak, that can spoil the vine.
Speaker 3:And so, yes, there, there are things, spiritually, that let me say this correction is not a nicety, it is a necessity, right, and it has to happen in our lives, cause our lives can be wrong, of course, and as a minister I've seen it and had to deal with with family members in the church. When I say family members, I'm not always talking about blood related, except through Christ. But it's essential. But, guys, you know as well as I do it's not easy. Matter of fact, I would probably say I just like nothing in ministry more than having to confront as someone that may be having sin in their life. But here's the thing. It must be done.
Speaker 3:Yeah it's got to be done and and, but here is the key to it's got to be done correctly, it's got to be done properly, and if you don't hear anything else I say this is what I'm emphasizing as I go through this son the most important ingredient is and I know sometimes it's impromptu, but when you have to deal with things, but the prayer You're praying and maybe sometimes fasting over situations, but making sure that you are praying daily, asking God, as Solomon did, for wisdom, discretion, discernment, because you're banking those prayers up in heaven, in the courts of heaven in advance. So when these situations come, god can give you wisdom. So I'm emphasizing the leaning upon the Holy Spirit first and foremost, and then operating in love. And sometimes that love can be tough. But what I've experienced in my ministry is there are hindrances to correction and one of them can be that of fear because, like I said, this is not my most favorite part of ministry. Now, some they love it, but they have to be careful with that because they can go in without love. But sometimes fear. I'm just chicken, I mean, you know I struggle with the anxiety of it. How do I overcome this fear? But I've got to fear God more than I do, man, and realize God will hold me accountable If I see someone going astray and don't deal with it. If you see my grandchildren doing something that they should not be doing, that you know. If you walk by and you see them doing something that could harm them and you just shrug your shoulders and you go on, or you don't come and tell me and they end up getting hurt, well, I'm going to be upset with you because you saw something, or you should have at least had the authority to say hey, god don't need to be too close to that river. You know, you don't, you know something like that. In the same way, I don't think God is pleased, if you know, I look at those who's purchased by his blood and and I and I, just I don't do anything. I mean, how can I, how can I genuinely love if I don't do something? You know, I've got the care. So if I care, I must confront, I must warn them of this danger. So real love has the courage to confront another.
Speaker 3:Another thing that can hinder correction is a misunderstanding, and let me say this, and what I mean by that is I mentioned it earlier Matthew seven tells us one do not judge unless you be judged and I don't know how many times I've quoted that in ministry, you know. But I think what the Lord is saying, that we can misapply that scripture for not careful. I don't think Jesus meant that we're not supposed to shepherd anyone and in other words, I've got to honestly evaluate where they are in their walk with Christ and then move toward them. I think Jesus is saying don't be a hypocrite.
Speaker 3:If I know their sin in my life and I go to you and I say, hey, man, you know no, then I need to correct that beam or that spec in my eye. I think the Lord is saying care enough about someone, build a relationship with them to the point that when they, when you go to them, they know who you are and they know that you're not there just to judge them. So I've got to be aware among personal sin or the hindricks could be laziness, as I mentioned earlier. I don't want to confront it because you know, hey, you know, hey, bishop, we're going to give you just a pause for one moment here, as we kind of reset some things.
Speaker 1:We'll let you get a drink of water and we'll be right back with you, okay.
Speaker 3:Sounds good, my friend.
Speaker 1:Thank you Right back Supers, hmm. Alright, bishop, we're right back with you, and so what you were talking about right there, let me just throw something in there too, as we get back here and get started again.
Speaker 1:Correction has absolutely got to happen. I was thinking about when you were talking about even though you may be fearful, even though there might be some anxiety, when it comes to correction, Correction is important, especially for a pastor, because I think about the priest Eli and how he didn't correct his sons and it ended up creating an issue for the whole generation after that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think correction is an act of love. Really, what Bishop was saying is what we tell our leaders is when there's correction of conversations or where they've dropped the ball. Things we've got to fix is we're doing this because we love you, because we see deficiencies that we know that you can thrive in, but we've got to have these corrective conversations. And one thing that my wife Taylor and I we had a conversation about this last week because there was a small problem that I needed to deal with and she was like don't worry about it.
Speaker 2:And I said, well, little problems become big problems and just because we don't think that it needs our time, or that we think it's unnecessary, or or here's one that gets us. This shouldn't be a problem. Why are we dealing with this? Well, we've got to deal with it because little things become big things if you don't deal with it. So, speaking of fear, sometimes we can talk ourselves out of those things because we don't think they're big deals. But I don't know about y'all, but I've let stuff, just like you talked about the compass letting those little things slide and become big problems and people end up getting hurt from it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, correction is definitely an act of love, and if you don't, you don't step up and just have the tough conversations. You'll see the the results of that can be tremendous.
Speaker 3:Yeah, brother, you're, you're so right. I'm reading a book right now by um, um, oh, my goodness, mark Rutlin, and it's on David the Great. And just this morning, just this morning, as I was reading, he talked about how David did not handle when, when Tamar was, was raped by her half brother.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and according to the law of that day, really he should have been killed. And uh, but David let it lay low and I didn't do anything about it. And of course, her life was wrecked for the rest of her life. She went to live with Absalom and but Absalom, who was her older brother, he realized what his dad didn't do and it created an issue between him and Absalom and um, absalom took things into his own hands and you remember, you know all of that and ended up, you know, getting his brother drunk and ended up having him killed, and that created more of an issue for David. So one thing that's not dealt with leads to another and another, and it created havoc for David for really the rest of his life. And so may God give us that wisdom to know how to handle things and don't just think that they're always going to take care of themselves. And that's where we need that wisdom. And I saw this not too long ago and may have shared it one day, pastor Jason, when I was with you that day. But it said that wisdom and discernment is, and it showed the picture of a serpent that was in striking position and the statement was, and it read discernment is hearing the hiss of the serpent before it strikes, and, brother, that takes a keen ear to hear what the Spirit is saying when you're dealing with people. Because timing is important.
Speaker 3:Go back to David. When did God send Nathan? About nine months, or up to a year, in other words. God knew that David was probably not in a position to hear the truth, and so we got to make sure that we are listening to the Spirit of God when to handle things, but do it in God's timing. Because even as Nathan went, david's soldier, who had killed many, many men, was standing right there and all David would have had is said you know what? I don't want to hear? What you got to say Nathan, kill this man. But it didn't happen like that. David was repentant and said I'm the one, I'm the one that took that one lamb. That's the story goes. So, god, to give wisdom of the timing, what to say, how to say it, speak the truth and love the firm that deal with it.
Speaker 1:Deal with it. Yeah, I think it's crucial to you know, we've had issues. If you've been in ministry longer than a day, you've had some issues to deal with. But I've had issues where I've done that and I'm just like, lord, all right, show me how to deal with it and, like you said that, also when to deal with it. Sometimes dealing with it isn't right in the heat of the moment when everybody's upset or there's an issue, but it's like, all right, lord, give me, give me the right opportunity, show me when the right opportunity is to deal with something. So how and when are definitely two important key factors in correction, for sure.
Speaker 3:Well it is, and I bought them, as I mentioned, and I confess, while they go. You know, confrontation has not always been my favorite thing and even to this day, it's not when I do it. Let me give you this true story, real quick, about me. Several years ago I was dealing with something in one of our pastures and I kept saying, OK, this is going to get better, this is going to get better. Lord, I'm going to let you handle it, I'm going to let you handle it. And it got worse.
Speaker 3:And the Lord spoke to another brother that came to me and who I had allowed into my life to correct me. You see what I'm saying. And he came to me and he said I just feel like I need to tell you. He said Moses had a rod of authority, he said, but when Moses laid that rod of authority down, it became a serpent. And then he looked at me and he said you, Morris, you have laid your authority down. He said, and people are biting you. People are biting you. He said God says pick it up, Pick up your authority, Confront this, but walk in humility. And, brother, I learned a valuable lesson that day that God will take care of some things. But there are things that you and I must deal with and we pick up that authority that he's given to us. Now, some people use that authority as dictatorship. No, we ought to have the authority of humility, being humble but bold, but in love, Speak the truth in love. That is so important.
Speaker 1:You know to do so we talked about the last episode. We had a one of your, one of your friends, a TC TC Holmes. We had him on here with us. He's also a pastor in the conference. So we had we had him on here. We were talking about what was it?
Speaker 2:We were communication and self-care help. Help spiritual health.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he was sharing some of that stuff and I'm trying to remember where I was headed with that, but we had him on here recently. He was talking about some of the exact same things when it comes to accountability and correction. So, yeah, I guess I'm trying to remember where I was headed with that, but I'm not your wife.
Speaker 2:I can't read your mind.
Speaker 1:I got a few things wrote down here, but I remember where I was headed. But, bishop, is there anything else on your heart you'd like to share when it comes to these two things? Otherwise, we're going to let you go, get back to your duties and your job and your work and your time with the Lord, and we're going to continue on, amen.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll just say this I'm honored that you would even have me to participate today. I'm still learning. I'm still learning and want to have a learning posture. And I have to say this to you when I do go to correct someone, I have to ask myself is my life an example? Do I have the adequate relationship with this person that I need? Do I have the facts? That's important, guys, to have the facts, not just hear.
Speaker 3:Say, before you approach someone, make sure and I have felt it that at times. So I have learned to make sure that I have the facts. And then again, do I have the right motive? Do I have the right wording? You know, god helped me to have the right wording that I need. And let me be direct and open, but humble, but not judgmental. Let me be general, yet firm, and and make sure that they're spoiled.
Speaker 3:A wealth and that'd be the last thing I mentioned is, even after that conversation, to make sure I stay in touch with the text or a phone call hey, I love you, I'm praying for you, I'm here for you, especially if somebody has a moral failure or something like that, and there are times let me say this sometimes you can certainly restore, and we should restore, and. And then there are sometimes you may not be able to reinstate that person in a certain Position that they had, and that can be hard. It can be hard, but at the same time, may God just give us the wisdom that we need, you know, to be like Jesus and to bring glory and honor to him right, right, and that's kind of where I was headed.
Speaker 1:We were talking about when I, when I mentioned TC, he talked about one thing and I got a hot moment, I remember yeah, it was. He was talking about unity and how that's important. It's important within the house, but it's also and it's most important with God, and if you're sinning, if you're doing something in your life, it takes you out of unity with the God, with God. Then we have to do something to bring you back in unity, and oftentimes, correction is what's needed in order for that to happen.
Speaker 3:And the bother and the. That unity is a huge, huge work Ephesians as to. We all come into the unity of the faith right, so make a lot of help us to do that.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. All right, bishop. Well, hey, we greatly appreciate you and we thank you for your time with us today and sharing that wisdom with us, and we're gonna continue on here, yes, sir.
Speaker 3:Thank you, gentlemen. I love you guys. Thank you for what you're doing, appreciate you and anything we can do to help serve you just a phone call away.
Speaker 1:We greatly appreciate it, sir. God bless you All right you too, thank you. Thank you Bye.
Speaker 3:Bye, bye.
Speaker 2:So I want to piggyback on something that he said wrapping up his conversation. As far as when you, when you wrap up Correction with someone, that conversation, what, what's the plan of action after that? He mentioned, like maybe right now they don't go back in that position, right?
Speaker 2:which is tough, he's right, yeah, and I dealt. I dealt with this. You know this situation. We, we set someone down and had an accountability conversation with this person. It was me and another board member.
Speaker 2:And One thing about correction if you're going to correct people, you need to give them vision for the correction. But this is where you were wrong, or what you did that was below the standard. Remind them of the standard and then give them a plan of action of how to get them whether it's help getting them healthy or getting a Correction corrected, whatever may be, you need to correct with vision. I think that any change in any corrections should be given with vision for next step. So, or have a plan for what you're going to do. And what we dealt with was we we we had every reason to sit this person down. We gave vision to why we did it and what the plan of action was. And our plan was we're going to restore you back to being healthy because we value your health over your gift and we it's a tough conversation- yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:People do not do well with accountability if they don't. If they're see, you'll find this out and you probably know this, but if you're new in leadership, you'll you'll see this soon. People who are not, they don't have their personal circle correct to where people are actually not just being cheerleaders for them, but are actually holding them accountable. We've talked about this before. Those people do not handle correction well because they circle around people who just, you know it's like those people who allow them to operate in there.
Speaker 2:It did right. The people who who's like how do you feel about this? Because this is how I feel and find people who they say, yeah, I feel that way. And so certain people who don't do well with this, with our situation. It didn't go well. They never came back to church, but A correction is needed. But you've got to give vision. What Bishop was saying. That way you can give a plan. Even if the plan is perfect, some people still are not going to come fall back in line. But again, it is out of love. It is out of love. It's good conversations. We look at weaknesses as negatives a lot of times. That we look at as them, as we're just a negative. I dropped the ball, I failed. Leadership should look at people's weaknesses as Signs of potential for them to be better. I see a deficiency in you. It means okay, we've got work to do because you could be better. Now you can be better and that comes through correction and those hard conversations and it's tough man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it matters too in in the relationship that you have with the person.
Speaker 1:Yeah they know that you love them, they know that you love the Lord and that you're gonna hold them accountable. And I think it's also being up front with people, special leadership, being up front with people who are under your leadership. Look like I promise you, if I'm bringing correction, it is absolutely for you, it's for the congregation, it's so that we can all walk in unity and love and so that you are walking in unity and love with the Lord and you're not out of order. Yeah or operating an error like we talked about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's five things that I want to mention. A lot of these actually. Bishop, we had this in my notes, but Bishop really touched on most of this stuff already. Yeah, when you're dealing with correction and accountability as leaders, or even in marriages or relationships, whatever it is, there's always a way to bring tough conversations. Funny joke this week Taylor, my wife has a number that kept coming across her phone while we were in the car and it was a Spam number and she just immediately just I was like oh, who is spam RISC, spam risk, yeah, and so we had this joke. So yesterday I met her at the gym and she was like laughing in the car and I put up. I said where you laughing at? She was like because spam wrist. She just called me again.
Speaker 2:I could think about our conversation about being spam risk and being sneaky. But when you talk about correction, number one is this is you can't delay what needs to be dealt with, don't, don't lead out of fear. And really what Bishop said is how can you not want to bring correction to someone in sin? Right that that that is love, love, what you got written down. Fascist Jason's got written down. Love the lost. Love those who are distant from God and a lot of times those, those are tough conversations. And then the second thing is don't assume you know there are. All there is to know there's always different perspectives, it's you can't go into a conversation one-sided, getting One person's thought to attack another.
Speaker 2:You've got to come in and saying hey, help me understand your side of this thing and then you can reevaluate. Maybe it's another meeting or whatever you gather your thoughts.
Speaker 1:Well, I've found I've sat in a lot of mediation over the years different capacities, but what you understand, what you what you'll see, is perspective. Yeah, perspective is often times the biggest thing. People want to be heard and and you need to listen to see what their perspective is, because maybe they're just seeing it from a different angle. Because it's like this in law enforcement right, if I go to an, a traffic accident and there's five cars, there are gonna be five people who tell me different Perspectives on how they view it, because they're sitting in different spaces, they're looking in different directions, they're blinded by different things, and then they see things differently because of the different angles they're sitting in. So you'll get those different perspectives and when you take a moment to listen to perspective, your knowledge and understanding will come, yeah, and then you'll know how to navigate it.
Speaker 2:Yep, absolutely. We got to pull up them a traffic cams.
Speaker 2:The third thing is do it with the right motives. Make sure your heart is right. In the conversation, pastor Jason talked about how Taking time to don't go into it frustrated, don't go into it angry. If you need to take a few days to address something, make sure you do with the right heart, the right motive. This is something that we need to learn to do is correct to restore people back to Christ. Right, not to condemn people. Important that that's. That's how that should be our heart.
Speaker 2:Posture of Correction we use truth as an excuse to be able to say what we want, how we want, just because it's facts. But when your heart is for the loss to be restored, how you deliver truth in correction goes a long, long way From someone leaving church hurt and broken to someone's being redeemed and restored. And so you've got to make sure you do those things with the right motives and then be gentle but firm. You got to do it with love but you've got to be stern in those conversations. And lastly we just talked about it correct with vision. Have a plan and a point of action for after the correction. Give someone something to look forward to after that conversation.
Speaker 1:Right and you got something? No, man, I feel like we have, we have covered this topic and I really feel like we could go a whole nother hour, to be honest with. Thanks, right when he started talking about you know when I'm. When we were talking about accessibility and accountability, Bro, my mind went different ways.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's podcast for next week We'll see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll see what happens, but you want to bless them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to bless you really fast and then we'll get you out of here. Numbers, chapter 6, verse 24, is a priestly blessing. It says may the Lord bless you and protect you. May the Lord smile on you and be gracious to you. May the Lord show you his favor and give you peace. Thank you so much for watching and listening on every platform that you have available to you. Share it with someone who this is Gonna be, and be, an encouragement too, and we'll see you right here.
Speaker 1:Pastor to pastor next week, looking forward to it. God bless you. Talk to you soon. You.