DOs and DONTs: Using Humour to Talk about Childhood Sexual Abuse

[DOs and DONTs episode] When is it appropriate to use humour and comedy to talk about traumatic experiences like childhood sexual abuse? How can this actually help to educate us better about support? Join Sophia and comedian Jonny Pelham as he shares his experiences writing and performing his set for Live At the Apollo, which focused on his experiences of childhood sexual abuse. 

Transcript

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Hi welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing

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a series all about having practical and approachable advice

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on talking about childhood sexual abuse, but with serious joy.

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I'm Sophia, a survivor and a designer,

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and this episode is all about child sexual abuse and humour.

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And for that, I'm joined by wonderful stand up comedian Jonny Pelham.

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Hello. It's really lovely to be here. Thank you, thank you.

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So, who are you? Why’re you sitting on this chair?

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Well, I'm a stand up comedian who has written a show

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about my experience of child sexual abuse, which is a lot funnier than it sounds.

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In this section, we're going to share a couple of practical do's and don'ts

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for talking about childhood sexual abuse, particularly when it comes to humour.

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So, Johnny, should we start with the negative?

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So what are some of the don'ts

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when it comes to talking about child sexual abuse and humor?

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One of the big ones is don't do it in a sort of crass, insensitive way.

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And I guess what I mean by that is more so when when you tell people often people

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try and make a joke to try and get rid of the anxiety.

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And I guess sometimes, you know, you need to allow the person to be heard.

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Comedy is great when it's connecting.

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And so if you connect with the person, you can find humor.

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That's great, and it happens organically.

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But you know, the amount of

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times over told people have just gone to some like horrible joke like

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Well, I always knew you a bit fucking weird

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you know, I mean, you know, I mean I just like

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and it is, it's coming from a good place of trying to like destress,

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but actually sometimes you just need to sit in the moment

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of someone telling you about what's happened to them.

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Do people now

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joke to you about your own experiences because you have done that yourself?

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Yes, they do, and I guess I'm completely fine with that actually,

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because I'm quite emotionally dead inside, so I'm quite able to like,

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not be very affected by, what happened to me consciously.

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This is not what we're advising our listeners.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Don't be dead inside

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Be... Advised on being dead inside.

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It really numbs everything quite nicely.

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And again, with that, I think it's all about trust and connections.

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And there's some friends who I implicitly know really, really well,

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and I feel completely fine with them doing it.

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And then I'm doing like a radio interview with someone and he made a crass joke

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I don't care, actually. But afterwards I think that's crazy.

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I thought it was, and again he was he was freaking out and was trying to

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chuck blanket over the fire in himself and try to make a joke.

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Yeah, I guess it's not necessarily always a pass

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for you to just joke along with the whole subject willy nilly.

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Exactly.

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Yeah, I have a don't that is kind of similar in terms of like,

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don't be crass with it.

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Yeah.

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Don't use kids in your comedy.

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Basically in 2013.

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Yeah, there was a video online and it was put on Funny or Die.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And it was by two comedians, Tiffany Haddish.

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And Aries Spears it was about a skit about what goes through the mind of a paedophile.

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Yeah.

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So basically, Tiffany Haddish is acting as a mom,

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and she's leaving her seven year old son, who's pretty much scantily

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naked throughout the whole skit in, like, underwear,

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who's just come out of the bath kind of thing

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and leaves him with Aries Spears’ character, and basically she's like,

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oh, thank you so much for looking after my son.

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And Aries Spears’ character is playing like a sex offender, essentially.

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And then the whole rest of this clip is like him rubbing baby

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oil into the child,

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or like watching the child through a newspaper with little eyeholes

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cut out as as he plays, like half naked with toys on the floor.

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And is it, is it real?

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It's really happened. Oh my God.

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As in is is the child, was there really a child?

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There's a child acting in it.

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Yeah, that's so creepy.

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It's sort of beyond belief then that even needs to be said not to do.

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I know, but you know what?

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I just don't put anything past people nowadays Yeah, yeah I can't.

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That's crazy. Isn't it. Yeah. Because this happened in 2013.

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And basically there was another incident with the boys sister where Tiffany Haddish

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basically showed her a video of someone eating a sandwich in a very sexual way,

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and then asked her to repeat it on camera.

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And then in 2022, once these kids had grown up, they basically filed a lawsuit

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against Tiffany and Aries to be like, you've caused us significant trauma.

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Yeah.

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And then that got plastered all over the press as like,

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these two are sex offenders.

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And there was a whole hoo ha about it.

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And then the original two people

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that they withtrackted their accusation,

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and they basically were like, we're gonna settle this

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like we don't want to prosecute any further.

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And I think regardless of what

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you think about that case, children can't consent to comedy,

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especially

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when they're of a sexual nature, regardless of the intention there either

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it was to like, take the piss out of paedophilic behaviour

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or child sexual offenders or whatever it is.

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You are still recreating a situation where you're putting that child in harm.

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If there's no fakery about it.

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To the child, it feels like the only time we ever talk about child sexual abuse

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is when we're joking about pedophiles or child sex offenders.

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And it's yeah, like, this is a very extreme example.

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What happens when you take that way too far

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I really agree with that.

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I mean, the example of actually having a child and rubbing lotion

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into them with paedophilic thoughts happening is beyond belief really

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But I think even on a lesser scale, I think it's something that comedians

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need to think about

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is how much do you bring children into your material?

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Because even completely sidestepping that child sexual abuse question, it's

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still a

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you still bringing them into something they can't consent to

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and talking about them in a way.

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And so, I mean, that's like a gray line.

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But what you're talking about feels actually crazy that that happened.

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Putting that into the conversation that children aren't consenting

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to these pictures or these videos your putting up online

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is something that should be discussed.

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Who knows where that line gets drawn.

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Yeah, but it's a good conversation to be having.

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And that kind of leads me to my second don’t

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don't joke about the person's experience of abuse.

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Joke about society and the way it responds.

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Yeah, that's great. I wish that was mine. Really? That's the best one.

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And that's what I did in my show.

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And when people say, you can't talk about sexual abuse, if people are messaging me

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saying, this isn't funny, this is awful, how can you talk about this?

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That's exactly what they're missing,

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is that I'm not talking about what happened to me as an eight year old.

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I'm talking about what happened to me.

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Who the person that led me to be, and then how society,

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and we don't know how to deal with this

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And there's loads of humour in that.

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But you're right.

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There's nothing funny about the fact that me or you were sexually abused.

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So, yeah, society's reaction is where the humour lies

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Yeah. And I'm you know what?

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I'd even go as far as to say, like,

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sometimes the only thing I could do was laugh about it because I was like,

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this situation is so batty that, like, all I can do is just have a laugh.

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Otherwise I would just burst into tears.

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And that's not helpful at that moment.

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I mean exactly the same thing.

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And then when I was trying to have a Tinder profile and I was like, do I put,

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child sexual abuse victim who's never had sex, you know,

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if someone's into that, they're not the right person.

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Well, you know, I mean, it's like what?

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Like, how do you like humour is a way.

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It's such a good way to deal with it because you deal with dark things by

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because you're like, the alternative to humour is just, I mean, really sad.

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You know what I mean?

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And I'm actually like, you can again, that's

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one of the things about doing on the Apollo

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and things is

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I think no one wants to have really serious, depressing conversations.

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And so if you limit child sexual abuse to a space where we can only talk about

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in those ways, you limit it to really intense

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negative things, then you go, right, that was crap.

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I've talked to my now I'll never do that again.

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And actually one of the ways to make this mainstream,

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oh, you know, like conversations by mainstream is to talk about it in ways

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where there's tonal variety, and it doesn't mean

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you don't need those intense, serious conversation.

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You know, the first time you tell people probably is going to be really intense.

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But then if you want to live with this is part of your identity,

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you probably do need to find a way to talk about it.

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That isn't going to mean that, you know, your days ruined.

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Have you got any more don’ts?

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The other don’t is quite specific to comedy, but is don't heckle.

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How often people think people heckle is much less than they actually do

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on the whole in comedy

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But, when I disclose my abuse, a lot of people would heckle.

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I would say on a on a percentage more people.

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And I think it's exactly what I was saying earlier about people

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freaking out about something that they can't control.

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And so they would shout something out to try and dispel the anxiety.

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Either the audience or they’re feeling.

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And what that does is it I thought a lot about what

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I'm saying, and I've crafted it, and spent time to make it a certain way.

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And then interrupting that, it turns it into,

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there's a need there to dilute something.

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And so I guess I would say if you do go to a comedy show

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and somebody starts disclosing anything, well, firstly, just don't heckle,

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particularly when your, when someone's disclosing something that is quite

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personal is just don't dive in

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people thinking that me saying the word abuse or

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saying the word paedophile means that I'm going to make a crass joke

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when actually I'm saying, actually, this is my lived experience

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and I'm able to talk about it and make jokes about it in my stand up

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I say something like, I'm going to talk about for the next hour,

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and if you do want to leave, that's totally fine.

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And you want me picked on

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So I'm basically saying you can leave if you want.

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Yeah, because I don't want someone sat there for an hour having an awful time.

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Yeah.

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I'm worried that if they leave, I'm going to slam them

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I always forget because there's that whole joke

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about not sitting in the front row either, isn't it?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I think it's important because, you know, I've no desire to make someone feel

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uncomfortable in any way.

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Which I guess leads onto the do's.

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Yes. Are there any positive do's that you think people should do

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and they're talking about child sex abuse?

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I guess, it’s to just go in with an open heart and mind.

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Really.

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I guess it's such a taboo topic

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to try and let yourself hear what the person is saying rather than

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bringing in your own presuppositions

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or your own biases or your own thoughts about it

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that are normally going to be incredibly negative.

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So I think that I think that's

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really just to try and hear it in a way that is authentic.

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One of the things that you just said earlier that I think is a great do, is

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do you give people an option to get out of the conversation or to leave

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Because I actually never occurred to me before about the whole thing about people

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leaving getting picked on.

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But yeah, imagine that being a very real fear.

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And you already know that you're going to be talking about

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a topic that's either controversial or not talked about often.

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And I think what's great is you said in your comedy, you can you can leave now.

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You're not going to get picked on. That's totally fine.

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It creates a safety without it

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being overly focused on the person and how they're going to respond.

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Totally. Yeah, yeah.

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And I think, I think one of the things I this is made me do

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about just allowing people to have different reactions,

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you know, I think that's why when people are critical of my work,

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I don't feel like fuck them

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I just feel like. That's alright.

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We we don't know how to talk about this as a society

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You think I'm doing it in the wrong way?

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That's totally cool,

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because it's so personal and so difficult, and we're all figuring it out.

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No one knows how to do this really

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Beacuse a few of my friends got annoyed with some of the people saying negative thing.

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I just think that's how they're managing whatever they're managing in their lives.

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And it's probably not healthy that they’re on Twitter, calling me a twat, but...

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But that's sort of their own thing, isn't it?

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Really? Yeah. That's so graceful Jonny

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I mean, to be honest, I'm not big enough of a platform to, like, warrant that

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enough trolls yet. Hopefully it grows

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You want those trolls

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I want them trolls because it means I’m growing

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But, you know, like when when people call you,

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like a trauma dumper or that this isn't really helping anybody.

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And those conversations can be intensely tricky for me.

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Or for example, when your personal experience becomes politicized.

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Yeah.

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For example, there's a whole thing about right wing politicians taking trans people

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and like painting them out to be sex offenders

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and all of that kind of thing, which I'm totally not about on this platform.

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But sometimes my work gets shared and all of that

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by those individuals, and I worry about what's going to happen next with it.

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Well, anyone who's on Twitter, having a go at you it’s like

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What's happening in their life, you know what I mean?

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Like, they're not thriving.

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I would suggest I can really imagine, though.

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Your work being use politically campaigning for things that you don't agree with.

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That would be very difficult.

00:12:12:05 - 00:12:15:05
Yeah, because that feels like the like the power of the troll

00:12:15:14 - 00:12:19:03
is nothing whereas the power of the politician.

00:12:19:19 - 00:12:20:24
You actually then sweat.

00:12:20:24 - 00:12:23:24
I find that very hard. Yeah. Beacause I’d want to be like

00:12:24:08 - 00:12:27:11
Yeah, yeah. It’s like I don't want to be part of this movement

00:12:27:13 - 00:12:28:11
Another do

00:12:28:11 - 00:12:32:24
would be questioning how we talk about child sexual abuse so often in comedy

00:12:33:05 - 00:12:37:07
and the amount of times I’m... particularly a new material gig

00:12:37:07 - 00:12:41:17
and the joke is extreme sexual violence towards children or women.

00:12:41:24 - 00:12:42:23
You know, it's crazy about it is

00:12:42:23 - 00:12:47:02
you know how many men, it is normally men, you know, like 90% of the time.

00:12:47:10 - 00:12:50:09
They're like 40 and they have kids and a job

00:12:50:09 - 00:12:52:08
and they get into the open mics in and they just start talking

00:12:52:08 - 00:12:56:09
about how they’ve got a kid in their basement, and they think it's like, funny

00:12:56:09 - 00:13:00:11
and what is the really fascinating thing about is you've talked to them off stage

00:13:00:20 - 00:13:05:13
and they'll be warm, chatty, clearly a loving dad whatever.

00:13:05:24 - 00:13:08:18
And then they go on stage and they’re just talking about

00:13:08:18 - 00:13:13:05
joking about fucking kids and raping, you know, prostitutes, whatever.

00:13:13:13 - 00:13:15:02
And it goes back to power.

00:13:15:02 - 00:13:19:00
I know I keep going on about your experiences and the way you use comedy

00:13:19:00 - 00:13:20:05
to tell your story. Right.

00:13:20:05 - 00:13:23:06
But like, we need to think about what the power is there.

00:13:23:06 - 00:13:26:12
Like if you are someone who statistically way more likely

00:13:26:12 - 00:13:30:14
to lock a kid in a basement or to rape a woman or whatever it is,

00:13:31:01 - 00:13:34:02
and then you're just bashing around, like pulling on that statistic

00:13:34:02 - 00:13:36:14
and laughing about what actually are you serving there?

00:13:36:14 - 00:13:38:11
I completely agree.

00:13:38:11 - 00:13:41:19
And I think also it’s about lived experience isn't that, you know, I can talk about it

00:13:41:20 - 00:13:44:20
because I've had the experience and I can talk about in a nuanced way

00:13:44:20 - 00:13:48:11
whereas if the if the punch line is... Never have apunch line really

00:13:48:11 - 00:13:50:05
where the joke is I fucked a kid

00:13:52:15 - 00:13:54:05
do you know what I find really challenging?

00:13:54:05 - 00:13:57:23
Because like, we were recording this just after the whole Russell Brand thing

00:13:57:23 - 00:14:00:24
and all of those scandals coming out and even just looking back

00:14:00:24 - 00:14:04:01
at his comedy now when he defends it, it's

00:14:04:01 - 00:14:07:01
very like, oh, but I'm just a sexual person hahaha

00:14:07:01 - 00:14:09:05
I don't understand what's funny about it it’s like,

00:14:09:05 - 00:14:11:12
you're using the camaraderie of being a comedian

00:14:11:12 - 00:14:14:22
to continually push the boundaries, and then it's no longer an act.

00:14:14:22 - 00:14:15:24
Then it is abuse.

00:14:15:24 - 00:14:19:17
I've seen him just roll up and, like, kiss presenters, that's not a joke anymore.

00:14:19:17 - 00:14:23:13
You're using the joke as a guise to actually do those abusive behaviours.

00:14:23:18 - 00:14:25:15
As a comedian, I would say you have to

00:14:25:15 - 00:14:29:21
justify every joke you tell on stage, just be very clear

00:14:29:24 - 00:14:36:02
about every joke, having, a political ramification and just knowing

00:14:36:03 - 00:14:40:09
and and being sure you can justify what you say, at least to yourself.

00:14:40:10 - 00:14:42:15
And that's really the only person you can check with.

00:14:42:15 - 00:14:45:12
I guess. I'd love to know what you think about this.

00:14:45:12 - 00:14:49:07
So you talk about comedians starting out and finding their voice.

00:14:49:12 - 00:14:52:13
I can imagine when you're writing those kinds of jokes,

00:14:52:13 - 00:14:55:13
you're like, okay, what is something that's a guaranteed giggle?

00:14:55:16 - 00:14:56:24
Child sex offenders.

00:14:56:24 - 00:14:58:10
Everyone knows it's safe

00:14:58:10 - 00:15:02:08
material in the sense that it's societally a very frowned upon thing.

00:15:02:08 - 00:15:04:16
It's very easy to make them the butt of the joke.

00:15:04:16 - 00:15:08:00
It's a kind of way to get in a few quick, cheap gags, kind of thing

00:15:08:00 - 00:15:09:22
And, you know, I've seen it done really well.

00:15:09:22 - 00:15:12:18
Then there's a there's an element when it gets too far,

00:15:12:18 - 00:15:15:15
or there's an element when it stifles other conversations,

00:15:15:15 - 00:15:17:19
like other material related to child sexual abuse

00:15:17:19 - 00:15:20:09
that then doesn't get a voice because of all of the nonce jokes

00:15:20:09 - 00:15:22:05
Yeah, I think you're completely right.

00:15:22:05 - 00:15:23:24
It's a very good way to get a laugh.

00:15:23:24 - 00:15:26:24
If you put Jimmy Savile at the end of a line, it will get him reaction.

00:15:27:06 - 00:15:31:09
You know what I mean, and so I think there is still, a need particularly

00:15:31:10 - 00:15:34:24
I think when you're finding your voice, you just go to the quickest way.

00:15:35:01 - 00:15:36:17
Comedians need the right to fail.

00:15:36:17 - 00:15:41:16
Because I guess I've been very reticent to try and like, police what comedians say.

00:15:42:19 - 00:15:46:05
But I do think comedians should be accountable for what they say.

00:15:46:11 - 00:15:48:15
And the problem with it is it's very hard to make any hard

00:15:48:15 - 00:15:50:23
and fast rules because it's always nuanced.

00:15:50:23 - 00:15:53:18
Yeah. Which leads me to my final do. Yeah.

00:15:53:18 - 00:15:57:15
Which is do remember that comedy is a hopeful outlet.

00:15:57:23 - 00:16:00:23
We've talked about it many a time on this podcast.

00:16:01:04 - 00:16:04:13
We need more ways to have this conversation safely,

00:16:04:13 - 00:16:07:22
practically approachable, joyfully, lightheartedly.

00:16:08:07 - 00:16:10:04
All of the ways that you don't typically think

00:16:10:04 - 00:16:11:23
a conversation on child sexual be should run.

00:16:11:23 - 00:16:15:16
And so remember that comedy is another form of having that outlet.

00:16:15:16 - 00:16:20:15
And I think that I my Edinburgh show in 2018 was a hopeful show and began with me

00:16:20:15 - 00:16:23:21
talking about how I was sexually abused a child, didn’t have sex until I was 25.

00:16:23:21 - 00:16:27:02
I was living in a squat, daydreamed all the time.

00:16:27:11 - 00:16:30:05
And then I went to therapy, and then it ended with me

00:16:30:05 - 00:16:33:05
in a relationship having regular sex.

00:16:33:08 - 00:16:35:12
I love that. Yeah.

00:16:35:12 - 00:16:39:10
Banging 24/7. I mean obviously not otherwise I wouldn’t be here

00:16:40:10 - 00:16:41:20
The politics comes out

00:16:41:20 - 00:16:44:20
of that hope, like you say, because then it's like, look, this happened for me.

00:16:44:20 - 00:16:47:13
And if we can stop talking about this, we can help other people,

00:16:47:13 - 00:16:48:17
and we can start having a society

00:16:48:17 - 00:16:50:08
We can better society.

00:16:50:08 - 00:16:53:04
And so you’re right, comedy is hopeful

00:16:53:04 - 00:16:56:24
You need to be in the right place to come public with this story.

00:16:56:24 - 00:17:00:11
So it felt like a natural time for you It did.

00:17:00:11 - 00:17:01:13
And I mean, that's something I would say is

00:17:01:13 - 00:17:04:13
if you're going to disclose something personal, really think about the consequences of it.

00:17:04:15 - 00:17:05:02
Yeah.

00:17:05:02 - 00:17:08:19
And really make sure you are prepared because,

00:17:10:03 - 00:17:13:03
yeah, you can find yourself on Apollo

00:17:14:15 - 00:17:15:12
What a flex

00:17:15:12 - 00:17:17:13
What a way to end it

00:17:17:13 - 00:17:20:05
Thank you so much, Jonny, for coming and chatting with me.

00:17:20:05 - 00:17:22:10
I've learned so much. I've had a laugh.

00:17:22:10 - 00:17:23:15
It's been great.

00:17:23:15 - 00:17:25:19
It's such a fantastic thing you do.

00:17:25:19 - 00:17:28:03
I thnk it’s really brilliant so well done. Thank you.

00:19:05:14 - 00:19:06:01
I made a

00:19:06:01 - 00:19:09:01
joke to my fiance the other day, but I was basically like.

00:19:09:02 - 00:19:12:16
I just want to make it really clear that if you turn out to be a pedophile, I.

00:19:12:22 - 00:19:16:19
That I am leaving, and that comes from a very, like, personal place.

00:19:16:19 - 00:19:19:07
And that's seeing what happens when people stay with pedophiles

00:19:19:07 - 00:19:21:13
and stay with sex offenders and stuff like that.

00:19:21:13 - 00:19:25:19
And like obviously I many as a joke, but like having that conversation

00:19:25:19 - 00:19:29:05
really early with your partner and just being like, how do you feel about

00:19:29:17 - 00:19:30:13
talking to your kids?

00:19:30:13 - 00:19:34:11
Because he was like, I've always seen it as being like, children are innocent

00:19:34:11 - 00:19:36:11
and you have to protect them and blow it up.

00:19:36:11 - 00:19:38:21
But actually, like you, you're an example of someone

00:19:38:21 - 00:19:41:15
who grew up with that kind of upbringing, but you still got abused.

00:19:41:15 - 00:19:44:05
So where do I stand now? We've had a very active conversation.

00:19:44:05 - 00:19:46:09
I think, at least for me, like getting married to

00:19:46:09 - 00:19:48:05
someone was such a moment where I was like, right,

00:19:48:05 - 00:19:50:21
I want to understand how they feel about this, this and this.

00:19:50:21 - 00:19:53:18
Yeah. And you know, he's on board. So. Yeah.

00:19:53:18 - 00:19:57:01
And and the way and the way I started that conversation was with a joke.

00:19:57:01 - 00:20:00:01
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well comedy's connection.

00:20:00:05 - 00:20:00:14
Yeah.

00:20:00:14 - 00:20:04:00
I use Absolute Car Company as a connection between you and the audience.

00:20:04:00 - 00:20:05:02
And then we connect.

00:20:05:02 - 00:20:06:12
And that's such a great way to begin.

00:20:06:12 - 00:20:08:09
Any conversation needs to go.

00:20:08:09 - 00:20:10:18
We can laugh and smile and joke.

00:20:10:18 - 00:20:12:21
And now let's talk about something serious.

00:20:12:21 - 00:20:17:24
And I think you right I think that idea of kids being innocent is so prevalent.

00:20:17:24 - 00:20:20:24
But you can maintain innocence and safety.

00:20:21:09 - 00:20:23:17
You know, they're not mutually exclusive.

00:20:23:17 - 00:20:23:24
Yeah.

00:20:23:24 - 00:20:26:22
You can say to a child, if if someone does this,

00:20:26:22 - 00:20:30:04
you need to tell me without saying, because they might even it.

00:20:32:12 - 00:20:32:21
Yeah.

00:20:32:21 - 00:20:36:08
And so yeah, I don't think they're mutually exclusive at all.

00:20:37:22 - 00:20:39:18
Thank you so much for watching.

00:20:39:18 - 00:20:42:12
I always end by saying, if you tell at least one person

00:20:42:12 - 00:20:44:19
that you've seen or listen to this podcast,

00:20:44:19 - 00:20:46:12
you never know where you're going to end up,

00:20:46:12 - 00:20:49:09
and you could really be offering an outlet for someone to talk about.

00:20:49:09 - 00:20:50:06
And that can be funny.

00:20:50:06 - 00:20:52:04
So absolutely go for it.

00:20:52:04 - 00:20:54:04
I'll see you in the next episode. Bye.