Trans Identities & Childhood Sexual Abuse

How is the experience of childhood sexual abuse different for trans people? How is it the same? What are the current changes in how we talk about trans people in relation to childhood sexual abuse and how does it need to change? Join Sophia (she/her), founder of Secrets Worth Sharing, in conversation with Raf (they/them), a trans person and survivor of sexual harm, as they discuss.

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To find the episode transcript, information about your hosts and additional tips & resources, check out our show notes.

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Transcript

Raf:

And I remember emailing you and saying, like, thank you so much as a childhood sexual abuse organization for saying something. And you were like, yeah, it's the bare minimum. Like, what more can I do? And I was like, no, it's really not the bare minimum.

Sophia:

The proportion of trans people that exist versus the proportion of hate directed towards them. It's like, honey, even if they wanted to abuse your children, they couldn't get around everyone even if they wanted to.

Raf:

There is not enough space, time, resources allocated to the issue of gender-based violence. The problem is that's not the issue of trans people. We can disagree.

Sophia:

Oh my God, we can so disagree. And I think it's so healthy to have these conversations where we do.

Raf:

You know, I hope there are people who are watching this who maybe are not trans inclusive or haven't been trans inclusive, but are able to hear this with, like, open hearts.

Sophia:

Welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing, a series all all about having difficult conversations on childhood sexual abuse, but with serious joy. I'm Sophia, the founder and director, and this very special episode is about CSA and trans identities. And for that I have the wonderful Raf coming on to talk to us.

Sophia:

Hey, Raf.

Raf:

Hi. Thank you. Yeah, I'm Raf. My pronouns are they/them. I'm a trans survivor of childhood sexual abuse. And, I'm here today because I'm really interested about how those two topics intersect. And I think we're going to have a really great conversation today.

Sophia:

Absolutely. I know that for some people who come to this podcast, some of the words around talking about transness might be quite new. So, Raf, I was just wondering if you could explain to some of us some of the key words that you use when you talk about transness.

Raf:

Yeah, sure. So I'm trans and I'm also non-binary. So what that means for me is I identify differently to how I was assigned at birth. So my gender assigned at birth is female and I do not identify as female. So for me that means I'm trans.

Other people might identify differently with, like, the term transgender, but that's personally for me. And, non-binary basically means that I don't have an identity that falls into a binary. It's as easy as that. So male or female, I don't ascribe to that for me personally, basically.

Sophia:

Brilliant. Thank you so much. I think it's really nice as well — when you gave that description to us, you said for you personally. And, I think one thing to just remember as we go across the whole episode is that gender is such a personal thing for so many different people. And for you this means being trans and non-binary and not subscribing to those things. There's also trans women and trans men who feel very much within a certain gender identity and that is different to being cis. So could you explain to us what cis is? What I am?

Raf:

Yeah, sure. I think the word cis has gotten quite a bad rap. I know that there's a few people who feel stressed about using that word, worried about using that word. But all it means is you identify with the gender, or the sex that you were assigned at birth. So if someone is assigned female at birth, so some people call that AFAB, then they identify with that, they're a cis woman, for example. And a cis man is someone who's assigned male at birth or AMAB and identifies as that gender, essentially. Yeah. And I think one more terminology that I think is important to bring in here is, the terminology of transmisogyny.

I think we'll probably be tackling that quite a lot in this episode. But it's a specific type of misogyny that affects trans women and people like me. So, you know, an AFAB non-binary person will not experience trans misogyny in the same way or at all in a way that a trans woman does but, as we get into the episode, you'll probably see why that's a really poignant and important topic just to get like, born down so you know what we're talking about.

Sophia:

Totally. Thank you so much. And, on the similar topic of trans hate, I think it's really important to bring up the word TERF here. So TERF is another term that you will hear quite a lot in this space when we're talking about violence, particularly with gender violence, and it stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Raf, could we please hear a bit more of your take on this?

Raf:

Yeah, sure. I mean, it's a really interesting term because as far as I'm aware, it was a term that originated in the community of people who are trans exclusionary. So, especially in like the 70s and 80s, there were groups of women, well, yeah, women and feminists who did not, essentially didn't believe that trans people were real, that they exist, they should exist in feminist spaces, that feminist space should accommodate trans identities. And that actually to bring in the topic of being transgender, into feminism, was to cloud feminism as a whole because for them, women meant your biological sex, women meant your gender that you were assigned at birth. 

So it's a term that's rooted again, as far as I'm aware — very happy to have, you know, messages in telling me that I'm wrong — it's a term that originated with, with TERFs, you know, so what it essentially means is someone who does not believe that trans people should exist in society.

That's my understanding of it, it’s very critical about trans people's inclusion in feminist activism, trans peoples’ identity as a marginalized community, that's something that they're generally really quite hot on. And, you know, essentially that to be a cis woman is the be and all centre of what activism should look like for people.

So, it's really not an inclusive or intersectional type of terminology for me. It's not an inclusive or intersectional way of living your life. I think to be an activist or to be a feminist or to be anyone who cares about marginalized people, you really need to look at other marginalized identities that aren't your own. So to centre it only in womanhood, for example, and, ignoring black womanhood, ignoring trans womanhood, ignoring other people who have experiences of gender-based violence is really a disservice to feminism.

Sophia:

Retweet. Absolutely love that. And I think again, the reason why we've taken so much time to explain this terminology is because Secrets Worth Sharing as a platform vehemently feels that the fight for survivor justice or for people who have experienced childhood sexual abuse should include everybody. And transness, and including trans voices and identities is the absolute forefront of that. Because trans identities, as we'll talk about in a minute, so often, are the first to be erased, excluded, and sometimes even targeted against when we talk about childhood sexual violence.

So I've been so excited for this episode because I feel like this is the time where we make our stance on what that looks like, particularly towards this topic. I was wondering, Raf, if you could please talk to us about yourself, a little bit about your background, and your work that you did before coming here.

Raf:

Yeah, sure. So we obviously got in contact because of the trans solidarity statement that you wrote from Secrets Worth Sharing, which I love. And with my background in gender-based violence, I just decided to reach out to you and kind of share my solidarity and opinion.

So I worked with an LGBTQ specific domestic abuse service for three years. I worked as an IDVA, which is an independent domestic violence advocate. And then I also went into managing the service. So essentially, people who are generally excluded from conversations about gender-based violence, domestic abuse, sexual abuse, those are the people that I worked with and before that I had a background in gender-based activism on a national level. So I worked on trying to get the government to adopt compulsory sex and relationship education, which I worked on about 10 years ago. And I think only now the government has decided that they're going to start doing it, which, you know, great job, Jess Phillips. But, it's a bit late, I think. Yeah, that was an interesting piece of news to read.

Sophia:

That literally came out today, didn’t it?

Raf:

Yeah. I was like, oh my God, we've only been telling you for 15 years, whatever.

Sophia:

But yeah, just to fill you the group in, so we are recording this in December and the government have just recently released a violence against women and girls statement, for multi. What did they call it? Multi government—

Raf:

It's like a multi systemic, multi system action plan, essentially on gender-based violence.

Sophia:

Exactly that — many, many words. And within that they have finally recognized the T in LGBT and talking about what inclusive education in that looks like. So that is one positive step going forward. Yeah, but yeah, we will link that in the podcast down below.

I can't believe it. So many hats. Such a history that you've had to your name.

Raf:

Thank you.

Sophia:

I wanted to talk more about your background specifically and what it meant when your identity was different to the one you were assigned at birth and what that looked like during a period of sexual abuse.

Raf:

Yeah, so for me, like I said at the beginning, I grew up as a girl, socialized as a girl. I was assigned female at birth and when I was being sexually abused, that was, you know, being abused as a girl. And as I grew up and I was thinking about my body, my gender identity, I felt such, like, a huge disconnect between what was happening in my body and how I viewed myself, so how I viewed myself as a person, the, like, identification I have with myself. 

I know a lot of childhood sexual abuse survivors have a lot of feelings of like, disassociation or disconnection with their bodies. So, when I was growing up and thinking about myself, I always attributed it to what happened to me when I was younger, you know, so it took me a really, really long time to even think about what transness looked like.

And especially growing up in rural Wiltshire where we did not talk about trans issues at all. You know, it's something that I really only discovered for myself as I got older and I spent so, so long being so disconnected from my body, what I felt like, who I was as a person.

I went through a lot of periods of self harm, like mental illness that I think were A. Attributed to what I'd experienced as a child, but also attributed to the fact that I didn't identify with my body and I had no idea why. You know, I didn't understand what had happened to me as a child. I didn't understand what transness could be. I didn't understand what a life outside of simply identifying with your body could be. Which was really, really, really difficult, to be honest. But I think for me, one of the biggest things in my healing has been understanding that my transness and the abuse that I experienced are interconnected but separate.

You know, they’re all parts of my identity for me as I walk through the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one is affected by the other or the other way around.

Sophia:

I can imagine when you were growing up, having these feelings. It must have been so confusing because the world was putting you in one box, being like, oh, you're a girl. And like, I imagine, you know, legally as well, you can't change what your assigned gender would be.

Then you're having these thoughts about your body. Then you're trying to process the abuse. You know, any one of those things in themselves could be so isolating, so confusing. And a lot of people who've experienced sexual harm, some of them only ever experience one of those things at one time. You've got all of this going on at once.

One of the most powerful things you said to me when we chatted in the past was about transness giving you the ability to have autonomy over your own body.

Raf:

Yeah, I think. I mean, I went through, after I, you know, experienced what I experienced, I went through processing all of that all by myself. I didn't tell anyone. I didn't even particularly understand what had happened to me. I certainly didn't have the language for it.

And at the same time, I was learning what to be, you know, what being a girl was, what my gender meant, what to exist in the world as a girl was essentially. And all of that, I was. I was learning from my experiences, learning from what had happened to me.

And I think, especially for girls growing up, you are, you know, your body is molded, you are molded. Your experiences are told to you before you even have any idea of what that even means. You know, you obviously learn behaviors from your parents and you mirror, like, people around you to determine your gender and how you express yourself. But it's difficult to then go through that and at the same time think, how can I be my own person? And for me, growing up, I think a lot of this comes in reflections, because when you're younger, it's all, it's all a bit all over the place, really.

But for me, being able to look back at my childhood, back at my younger self, and understand myself through a trans lens has been incredibly valuable for me, especially because it means that I can reclaim my own body for what was done to it and for how I perceived myself for a long time.

You know, I really, really hated myself for a long time because of feelings that I couldn't. I couldn't describe to anyone, I couldn't tell anyone. And now, looking back, I can have a lot more empathy with myself because of my transness. And I think if I hadn't had those experiences and my own, you know, I'm incredibly grateful to my identity that I have because it allows me to rewrite my own body, allows me to rewrite my own history in a way that I want to and not in a way that someone has done to me.

Sophia:

Absolutely. And, one of those decisions that you made for yourself was the decision to get top surgery, which you completed this month, right?

Raf:

Yeah. Yeah.

Sophia:

Congratulations.

Raf:

Thank you. Yeah, that felt, I actually wrote a zine about that because it just felt like such a monumental moment. And I'm really grateful to be able to have that. I mean, this time last year, I was in a psychiatric hospital having a really not great time and the fact that this year I'm able to have top surgery is like, wow. Yeah, insane times. But again, that's the thing where my chest especially, I had a lot of dysphoria around my chest. Dysphoria is when you experience, like, psychological distress because of your genitals or your body or how your body looks in relation to your gender. I had a lot of dysphoria around my chest and also a lot of feelings of  dissociation from my body because of what had happened to it. Especially around my chest and certain areas on my body, I did not feel any kind of identification with it. And that's really difficult.

You know, if you went to a doctor and said, I've experienced this, I feel these types of confusing feelings. And also, I'm trans. Will you please give me surgery? I don't think someone would give you surgery, for example, because they believe misguidedly that the abuse that's happened to you has meant that's the reason you want to have top surgery, for example, not because of your transness.

So that's a decision that I had to come to with a lot of thinking through a lot of time for myself, to make sure that it was the right decision for me. Yeah. And I think if we think about, like, the autonomy that people get to have after abuse, that was one of the things that was massive to me. Being able to decide and choose what happened with my trans body was massively healing for what had happened to me as a child, you know, because being able to decide what happens with your body at any stage is really important. But for me, it was even more important almost because of what I'd experienced. To be able to, like, reclaim and decide, no, this is who I am. This is what I'm deciding.

Sophia:

And you said that when you emailed me when we were arranging this podcast, because you said, oh, since the top surgery, I've actually had even more revelations about this topic.

Raf:

Yeah, I think, because beforehand, I mean, firstly, you don't have to have surgery to be trans. A trans person can be trans the second that they are trans, for example. For me, I think I had no idea what I was going to go through until I had the surgery because I was so, like, focused on just getting it done.

And I had it. And it was a complete breath of fresh air for me. I felt like this massive, like, physical weight and also mental weight had been released from me. I felt lighter. I felt like. I don't know how to describe it exactly. I don't always have the words for it, but for me, it just felt like coming home into my own body. And that's a feeling that I haven't had, I don't think, ever in my life, feeling at home in my body. And that's. It was special to feel that.

Sophia:

And even when you talk about it, you just seem lighter and happier and even more yourself than when I met you a few months ago.

Raf:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, I mean, I've also been on hormone therapy for a while, so that's where I've been taking testosterone. And that as well, has been an incredible process of just seeing my body change. It's incredible what a human body can do, you know, especially after puberty.

You don't choose puberty, obviously you don't choose what happens to your body and that was really confusing for me as well, because my body was becoming something that I identified with abuse. So when I was going through puberty and becoming more female, let's say, it was really, really distressing because I didn't, again, I didn't know what was happening to my body. I hadn't chosen for it to happen. It felt like something that was going to make me more unsafe and more uncomfortable. So I was worried when I was going through and starting hormone therapy that I'd have those kind of similar feelings again.

And especially having experienced abuse by men, I was worried that starting testosterone therapy would mean that I would become more masculine, for example, that I would become more like the people who'd hurt me in the past. And A. it was untrue, and to think like that, I think is really reductive. But B. that didn't happen. You know, someone being masculine or having more testosterone in their body does not make them more likely to abuse someone. It's just not true. And me undergoing hormone therapy similarly did not mean I was more likely to harm anyone or become abusive because I don't engage in harmful behaviours, you know, and it can be as simple as that. You either do or you don't engage in harmful behaviours.

Sophia:

Yeah. And I think that's the most important thing here to remember. All types of sexual harm are learned behaviors. They're not innate within us, just in the same way that cis women can sexually abuse, you know, cis men can be survivors, all of that sort of thinking. And I think when we reduce it down to, you're a man, therefore you're going to abuse me. You know, there are stats that if you're a cis man, you are more likely to abuse, but I think that is more because of societal structures as opposed to something biological within us.

Raf:

Yeah. And touching on things being biologically within us, I think that's a lot of the time, what TERF talking points and ideology is — that there's something innately inside trans people that makes them more likely to harm people or innately inside trans women especially, that trans women are trying to get into places of power or privilege where they can then harm others, which is trans misogynistic. It's untrue, it's harmful. And I mean, if we look at stats, trans women are more likely to experience sexual violence than any other trans or cis kind of identity. They're more likely to be harmed by another cis person than by a trans person.

So I think it's really important to look at stats when we talk about this. And also people's lived experience.

Sophia:

Absolutely. Again, I think you're such a good example firsthand as someone who hasn't become trans to kind of annoy the world and start this big vendetta so that you can abuse more people. When you speak to me, I really hear changing your viewpoints on your abuse and identifying as trans was your way of making all of this make sense for you.

And that was your identity coming into its full flower. I don't know how else you say, but also your abuse being a part of that journey that has helped shape you to the person that you are now, not the entire reason for why you have become trans.

Raf:

Yeah. And I remember, I mean, I don't know how many other survivors experience this, but fears of absolute, like, terrifying worries that I was going to go and harm someone else because of what happened to me, especially when I was a kid, I would do a lot of sexualized play with myself, with, you know, other people, whatever.

And I think because of those experiences, I was so, so worried that I was going to grow up and be someone who hurt someone else. And then being told by society, by the world that my trans identity made me dangerous. It's really psychologically damaging to hear that, you know, that you're either a victim or you're an abuser. And there's no, like, there's no nuance in between that. There's nothing else. You're either a good person or a bad person. And the truth is, we're all capable of harm. Every person, survivor or not. You're capable of hurting someone else, whether that's sexual abuse or not.

Yeah, I think that was just important to say.

Sophia:

Yeah, definitely. One time I was doing an event and someone put their hand up. And to be fair to myself, I do say, ask whatever questions you want to ask now so that you learn, so that you don't cause more harm out in the world.

So I did say that. I did put myself on the pedestal, ready to get knocked off, and someone put their hand up and they were like, yeah, but isn't it so interesting because, like, most people who sexually abuse, particularly if they're men, go on to sexually abuse someone else, and then went on to shape that question into a million different, like, arguments.

And I said, okay, let me just stop you there. Like, we know that a huge percentage of people who do sexually harm have been themselves abused. But if we just break down that, that is a, that group is a tiny, tiny proportion of the statistic of people who've experienced sexual abuse.

Raf:

Yeah.

Sophia:

And I think it's, it's that. It's the failure to understand the small statistic versus the large. I think in a very similar way, you can apply that to trans identities. Yes. I'm sure in the world there have been people who are trans or drag performers, if we're to, you know, lump them all together, there has been a proportion of them who have sexually harmed children, I'm sure, because, like, every gender and someone has sexually harmed. But the proportion of that compared to the number of trans people who are, who have experienced sexual violence in any form, especially when you compare that to the global general population.

There was a research by UCLA in 2021 that said if you are trans, you are four times more likely to experience any form of violence than somebody who is cis. And that includes sexual, that includes physical, that includes verbal, with people consistently saying, you're not a man, you're not trans. What does that even mean? Those count as forms of abuse. So as you've rightly said, you know, to have it to be much more vulnerable, to experience harm on a daily basis and then be told that you're also perpetrating it, that is also a form of abuse.

Raf:

Yeah. And, I mean, let's be really honest, it is astoundingly and disgustingly easy to sexually harm a child.

Sophia:

Yeah.

Raf:

It's very, very easy to harm a child if you really want to sexually harm a child. That's why there are so many people who've experienced sexual harm as children, because of how easy it is. You know, someone doesn't have to go through the whole internal process of realizing that they're trans, living in society as a trans person, going through everything that that means just so that they can get to the position of sexually harming a child if they wanted to do that, it's astoundingly easy. Like I just said, you know, it's a logical fallacy to assume that trans people are, going back to drag queens in children's libraries, that they're doing that to somehow indoctrinate children or harm them.

If you wanted to do that, you could do that, and you wouldn't have to go through the whole process of being trans to do that. I also think you're right. There are stats where trans people are more likely to experience abuse. I found that in my own work when I was doing it, that trans people were disproportionately represented in our service. I think like 2/3 of our service users were trans compared to the entire trans population of Sussex, which is really not that high. 

And there were perpetrators that were trans, there were perpetrators that were cis. And what we also found was they hadn't only experienced domestic abuse, they'd also experienced other types of abuse throughout their life. So if you experience childhood sexual abuse, for example, you're more likely to experience other types of abuse through your life.

And that's my lived experience. It's a lived experience of other people. So, you know, it's not something that just sits with you in childhood, affects your whole life and the way that you walk through the world.

Sophia:

Yeah, 100%. I think we're naturally talking about this anyway, so I wanted to just officially move us to the next topic. You've mentioned a lot about your work before in what is known as the gender-based violence sector.

Can you unpack that for us first, about what exactly that work looks like and also how that space can become quite controversial. The reason I bring that up is because, you know, I run a child sexual abuse charity and very pro trans have released the statements on the articles, you know, as what I think is the absolute bare minimum for any organization on sexual violence. But that is not the overarching opinion of many organizations in the sector.

Raf:

Yeah.

Sophia:

So I think it's really, really important now to break down what that nuance actually looks like and how that impacts us doing our work on a day to day way.

Raf:

And I remember emailing you and saying, like, thank you so much as a childhood sexual abuse organization for saying something. And you were like, yeah, it's the bare minimum. Like, what more can I do? And I was like, no, it's really not the bare minimum. To say anything at all is incredible.

Sophia:

It's so sad that that's where we are, because to me, that is as basic as just defining what the problem is in itself, you know? But, yeah, sorry, tell me a bit about you, your background in it and how you started to notice this sentiment coming.

Raf:

Yeah, sure. So like I said, I worked specifically with, queer survivors, with LGBT survivors. So what that meant was all of the workers in the project were queer. We worked with other queer people. And what that meant was, is we were very, very often the only queer people in the room.

So gender-based violence is obviously the overarching term for any violence that is gender-based. It's kind of in the name. But I specifically worked on domestic abuse. So that's abuse between two people who are age 16 and above. It can be within your family, it can be an intimate partner, anyone like that.

And what we found was when we were in rooms talking about domestic abuse, when we were asking for things like resources, money, there were certain other organizations in the room saying we need proportional funding. So what that means is there's only 2% of trans people in the city, so therefore 2% of the funding should go to trans people.

Which, you know, we've just had a conversation about how vulnerable trans people are to abuse, how they'll experience multiple types of abuse. Trans people have a lot of issues with mental health, with housing, with social care. They're more likely to be disabled. Disabled people are more likely to be abused. You know, we have people with really, really complex needs coming to us. And then to be told that because you're a small statistic as part of the wide population, you should only receive, you know, 2% of the funding, felt like a complete slap in the face.

Sophia:

Yeah, 100%. I'm going to chime in here with one of my favorite basic analogies about this. Have you heard about the boxes fence, equity, equality thing? Yeah. So for people who don't know, imagine you've got a really tall person and not like, a middle height person and like someone like one foot tall. And they're all trying to look over a fence. The really tall person can already see over the fence. Right? If you gave a cardboard box that was all the same height to every single person, that would be called equality because equality is giving a fair, proportionate amount to each person. Right? The same to every– Equality is giving the same thing to every person. In our analogy, what does that do? The tall person can see, like, they don't need to see even more over the fence. Like, thanks for nothing. The medium person can now see over the fence, but the little person cannot see over the fence at all.

So equity is taking the resources you have, figuring out who actually needs these resources. How can it be disproportionately weighted towards them to make up for their needs? So in our example, if you had all the same cardboard boxes, you don't give one to the tall person, you give one to the medium person and to the short person, you have two boxes, then everyone can see over the fence.

And when I hear things like, oh, only 2% of trans people existing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it completely erases, as you said, the complex needs that, that it even takes to exist as a trans person in this world. I don't think people choose to be trans knowing that they are about to face all of this in the world where there's so much against them. You know what I mean? So to be trans is to really hone in on your own gender Identity. And I think you, correct me if I'm wrong, it's very much knowing that the risk of a society that is not ready to accept that yet can be great and sometimes life threatening.

Raf:

Yeah, definitely life threatening. I mean, I guess another really great example is I don't know if you know much about the femicide census, which is. So it's a census that comes out every year and it's of women who've been killed by men. So it's a census of female murders in the country.

And when Brianna Ghey was killed, she was not included in the femicide census. I wrote to the person who runs the femicide census, I said, this murder, counts within your count. This young girl should be counted. Not included. I'm pretty sure that her name is still not on that.

Sophia:

Did they give you a reason why?

Raf:

They just never responded. I mean, I know that the person who runs it is famously transphobic. I won't specifically name her, but she knows who she is. But yeah, she, she runs an organization that's not inclusive. So I think she just simply did not view Brianna as a girl.

So she wasn't included, generally in that census trans women are not included at all. That's also a problem with data collection. So a lot of the time when people are murdered, their correct gender identity is not recorded. So I, you know, it's a further insult to injury that not only are trans people being harmed, being murdered, experiencing, you know, horrific violence, but when that happens to us, we're not even counted as the gender that we are.

You know, I have a lot more examples like that, but I guess the last thing I want to say is that even though we are quite, you know, a really small minority of the population, we experience disproportionate backlash. I remember there was a analysis and review that was supposed to come out with Brighton Council about domestic abuse. So it's supposed to say where the money went, what the priorities were going to be and things like that. And there was maybe three sentences in that entire 200 page report or whatever on trans people. And the amount of responses that were about the inclusion, the single line of an inclusion of trans people and specifically trans women in this report was ridiculous.

You know, it was clearly like a targeted and organised effort by a group of people to try and get trans people written out of domestic abuse policy. And that's what happens in every single part of gender-based violence activism. Trans people are trying to be included, counted, heard, and we're systemically being, you know, erased from those narratives.

Sophia:

I'm so tired of this. The proportion of trans people that exist versus the proportion of hate directed towards them. It's like, honey, even if they wanted to abuse your children, they couldn't get around everyone even if they wanted to. Like, it is exhausting. 

And I almost think it comes from the pace of we need to blame someone for sexual harm. We don't want to blame anyone within our own communities. So let's point to a community which historically has not had much power, who historically are very small and who historically, as in, in terms of population, and historically who are able to get ridiculed and othered very easily.

And it's really easy. We've known this throughout every social issue that has ever happened throughout beginning of time. It is so easy to point to the other than to look internally. And I think currently in this political climate, trans people, trans bodies are often the focus of all of that hate.

Raf:

Yes. And it's happening with immigrant communities as well. You know, it's like you have marginalized communities that are simply trying to exist. And it's really, really funny to me. I mean this happened in like Jim Crow era in America, like sexual harm was such an epicenter of all of this so-called moral outrage.

Things that were happening to people, you know, gender, like violence against women is always, I think, and has always been the center of moral panic. And yet it's completely displaced moral panic. If all of that time and effort was put into how do we make marginalized people safer, how do we decrease harms happening to these people, I think we would have actually solved the problem.

But instead it just uses this, like I said, moral panic to air all of our social ills that we all have about the world and society while doing absolutely nothing for survivors.

Sophia:

I also really want to highlight that working with, focusing on centering trans experiences also is better for violence against cis women or whatever we want to call it. When I started Secrets, so we've officially been incorporated two years, I think I've been going for like four years unofficially, I had the feed, I set up the Instagram feed for Secrets. And you know, on one hand my personal feed was full of trans and queer joy. I had people like Charlie Craggs on my feed, Munroe, like whoever, really interesting, fun, happy, joyful, political.

Raf:

Both of whom are also survivors of gender-based violence.

Sophia:

Need we say more. Anyway, when I moved to the Secrets page, all of a sudden I was following a lot of resources that would start with something quite shocking. So stuff like kids toys are getting really hypersexualized nowadays. And you're like, oh God, that is really bad. What is gonna happen? And I believe it. You know, like kids toys with boobs that you press that make groaning sounds. I can believe that that exists. You know what I mean?

But then next thing you know, they kind of say, so we can all agree that kids are being exposed to sexually explicit material. Then out of nowhere, trans people are being brought into the equation. Trans people, by subverting sex and gender, are a form of sexual explicit entertainment. Like drag performers, like the people who read storytelling to children. Therefore, to have your child around someone who is a drag performer or a trans person is exploiting them. And I was genuinely like, wow, how have I ended up watching anti trans propaganda?

Raf:

Yeah.

Sophia:

And the more I've dug and the longer I've been in the kind of child sex abuse activism space, the more I've noticed this is a, really, really like controversial line that in my opinion should not be controversial. You know, we look at the sector, it's called VAWG — violence against women and girls — a majority of the funding for domestic abuse projects for childhood sexual abuse certainly fit under violence against women and girls. 

Now what is so dangerous about that is two things. First of all, the erasure of sexual violence that happens towards men, Cis men as well as trans men and trans and non-binary bodies. But second of all the funding implications that this has. A lot of organizations, mine included, really struggle to get funding if you are openly trans supportive, which is why you've said, like, there are so few organisations actively talking about this issue in the child sex abuse space. Because the minute that you say you're pro trans, some funders can get really, really iffy with that and be like, okay, well you're not technically ticking the box of violence against women and girls, so we're not going to allocate the problem.

And actually what I would really encourage us all to think about is what are the structures that, if we are to think about women or men, what are the structures that have defined what those two groups are? Why aren't we thinking about our other groups? And also what is the harm that happens to all groups and all genders of people when we try and stuff people into boxes in that way?

Because, you know, if we're only focusing on violence against women and girls and women and girls who've experienced sexual harm, we don't focus on the men who've experienced sexual harm who also could then have to find coping mechanisms to deal with that themselves. One of which could be abusing, sexually abusing children. As we know, if you're socialized as male, you are more likely to be someone who perpetrates sexual harm, according to some statistics. So I just don't think it benefits anybody to be so transphobic. Because we need at its core to focus on gender if we are to solve the problem of child sexual abuse in the same way that we need to focus on refugee rights, people of colour rights, disability rights, all of the social issues. Because what is the point of advancing our cause if we step on other people's suffering?

Raf:

Yeah, and I mean, the way that I fundamentally see it, what organizations are doing now is not working. You know, abuse against kids is increasing, sexual harm against children is changing, is increasing. The way that we work is fundamentally not working.

And I always think, well, of course it's not working because you never fund people who are trying to do things differently, who are, perhaps not fitting the norms and narratives that you would immediately think of when you think childhood sexual abuse work or gender-based violence work more generally.

What really are we doing if we only fund places that are fitting the narrative, are overly involved with the police, for example, are harming other communities. What good does that actually do society if we're not sticking our head above the parapet and actually trying different things?

Because I don't think what we're doing right now is working.

Sophia:

No, and I would say it's a very similar argument to working with people who have caused sexual harm. Some people call them perpetrators, some people call them offenders. I believe really strongly that we should actually be trying to engage in dialogue with people who have caused sexual harm.

Some great organizations that do this are Lucy Faithful Foundation, Shore, to name a couple, and they consistently get so much hate. Because the argument is, why are we directing so much of our resources, our limited resources, towards the people who have sexually harmed and not the people who have experienced that?

But as you've said, that current model is not working. So even if we are to go along with this route of gender critical people who don't like this kind of all inclusive gender education on childhood sexual abuse, Even if for a second we're to entertain that idea, I think it's really fascinating that we then wouldn't give support to people who you're calling sexual predators, even though we know for statistically trans people that is just not the case. They're not sexual abusers. But even if we were to entertain that idea. It doesn't even work anyway with your current line of activism. So is. Yeah, it's very complicated.

Raf:

Yeah. And I think, to be really explicit, I do think that the VAWG sector, the gender-based violence sector, I do think it is a fundamentally transphobic sector. And I don't say that lightly. I mean that the funding is set up to erase people like me. The lived reality of accessing this service, those services is set up to, you know, ignore and erase people like me. And I'd say that I probably have, would have an easier experience of accessing those services than say, a trans woman, because I would be able to access it, as a non-binary person.

I think a non-binary person that passes as a woman, for example, has a lot more, Well, my experience is that I've had more material privilege in being able to access those services and get support, than a trans woman. Other people might have different experiences, but that's been mine.

Sophia:

I'm really glad that you said this. So maybe a year or two ago we held an event at a Queer Positive Space. I handed over the panel to a lot of trans and non-binary survivors to have a conversation. And there were about 30, 40 people in the room, all queer, all trans or non-binary identifying.

And one of the overarching messages of this event was in the world, like in the world more generally outside of queer positive spaces, trans men are seen as confused little girls. So very similar to how you were telling your story and how that could have been interpreted as, oh, poor Raf, who was abused as a little girl and can't really come to terms with that, so he's just decided to become a man, but that they're not really a man. You know, that kind of narrative. Sorry to say that.

Raf:

No, that's okay.

Sophia:

And then the other kind of side of it is trans women being seen as men in dresses who are just dressing up so that they come can come and attack your children. So I think it's really, really important that you have raised about trans misogyny because again, if you are a trans woman in this space and you have experienced sexual harm, you're even more likely to then be seen as somebody who's going to outright go and abuse or cause these harms to other people as opposed to getting the care you need.

Raf:

Yeah. And what happens is, you know, if people don't get the care that they need, they have poorer outlooks in housing, in mental health, in support, more generally, people who don't get support, will have generally, like, a shorter lifespan than people who do. And it's just absolutely abhorrent that at point of access, trans women have a harder time trying to access any kind of support. And that's as an adult, it's as a child. At any point in your journey, if you identify as a trans woman, then you will have a harder time getting help, which is, you know, to say plainly it's transphobic, it's exclusionary. And then to further be told that the reason that you might not be able to access that space is because you could be harmful is just insult to injury, you know?

Sophia:

Absolutely. If you're watching this we had a minor, little camera malfunction, which has turned into half an hour of our video time. So if you're watching this and all of a sudden you're like why do they look so different? Why is there no multiple camera angles? That is why. So ignore it. That is the risk of working in the nonprofit sector. You end up being the camera, the crew, and the venue for free, and everything just never works. So here we are, just making the most of our lemons — to make fresh lemonade.

So we're just going to carry on as if nothing happened. Yeah. So we were talking a little bit about some of the social aspects around transness and how if you're trans, you're more likely to XYZ... I think another thing to highlight is the link between transness and autism.

So at this event that I was telling you about, someone highlighted that they'd recently read a report which, again, I'll link to the podcast, about an overwhelming majority of people who are trans are also autistic. And again, that is not to negate the experience of transness or of autism, to say, oh, you think you're trans, but you're actually autistic. Whatever. But I think it says a lot about when you're autistic, you see social rules, and you see the way that people conform to them in ways that seem illogical or don't quite make sense. And I think gender is a very similar aspect to that. Oh, people are conforming to these boxes of gender. And what does that actually mean? So did you have any thoughts on that?

Raf:

Yeah, I mean, I've recently been diagnosed as autistic, actually.

Sophia:

Congratulations.

Raf:

So for me, I think looking back through my experiences, especially as a teenager, were of, kind of like I said before, not feeling like I fit into my body, not understanding what gender, was or meant or what performing gender was. I remember as a kid, like, when my friends would write stories, I'd always ask to be a male character in these stories that we'd written.

And then when I was a bit older and going online and stuff, I would meet all of these random men online who were kind of, you know, engaging in, like, sexual exploitation. And because I felt like I was learning and they were telling me what to do, I was like, okay, I have to listen to what I'm being told to do. Like, I'm gonna listen to these rules. They'll make sense to me. They do make sense. This is all fine. And actually, as an adult, I look back and think, that was not fine. Like, none of this was fine. 

But as a kid, and especially as an autistic kid, you really want to make sure that you're doing the right thing, that you're fitting in with what you're supposed to be doing with the rules. And I think it makes you more vulnerable to that kind of exploitation, especially when you are already confused about what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a young girl, what you're supposed to be doing. You know, for me, I was like, okay, well, this is what being a woman means. This is what being a girl means to me. Which was really confusing. 

But I think now as an adult and I think about the experiences I've had as an autistic person, I really value my autism because it has given me a different outlook on the world. I don't see it as a bad thing for me. I see it as, like, a fresh set of eyes that I'm able to have. Like, my favorite thing is problem solving, is working out where things don't fit where they should fit. And I think that really lends itself to this kind of scenario where I can, like, get down to grips with all the problems in the gender-based violence sector and, like, work it out of my head for six hours, you know?

Sophia:

Love that. 

Raf:

That's my fun Saturday.

Sophia:

Good luck. Good luck. I'm so glad you brought all of this full circle, right? Because I wanted to talk back about what you were saying about transphobia within the child sexual abuse space. Now, there might be people listening to this podcast who aren't trans, who are thinking, oh, yeah, that's so sad about transphobia in the sexual abuse sector, but how does that really affect me? Like, I don't really care. Do you know what I mean? 

I wanted to make the case today that transphobia, within childhood sexual abuse spaces affects absolutely everyone. And I wanted to do it by breaking down how that works. So let's go all the way back to how these things are typically funded and enforced by policy — right? So we have the UN Sustainable Development Goals, one of which is about, all children should have autonomy of their own body — that affects childhood sexual abuse laws. Brilliant.

The way that funding typically gets divvied up is under violence against women and girls. As we've discussed, the UK government does it, many national governments do it. So if those national governments are defining what abuse is, and that definition of abuse is violence against women and girls, that is going to be reflected in what gets funded.

Now there are four massive international funders that fund so many projects internationally about this issue, one of which is my funder, The Oak Foundation, creds to you. They also fund the NSPCC. They fund childhood sexual abuse in sports spaces. So many fantastic, fantastic initiatives. As well as To Zero and some of the other groups in our podcast before. 

They are one of four global funders that invest in this issue solely. They're only one of two that fund trans inclusive projects. The other two don't. So if you're an organization like ours, like Everyone's Invited, like other organizations that focus with trans and non-binary people, your funding pot has already halved, you know, and that's before you've even got to the work.

So the statistics are much smaller of you being able to succeed because you're able to access less money. Why is that important for the causes that we talk about? Because if you work with trans people, trans survivors and non-binary people who've experienced sexual harm, you're more likely to also be working with other marginalized groups, thinking people of colour, forced migrants and refugees, disabled people, queer people, et cetera and so on.

And so when the funding is limited, those voices don't get platformed. So what then happens? The voices that solely focus on violence against women and girls and a very transphobic view of what that is become the overarching main narrative of what violence against children looks like. And for a lot of people, that will involve only rape with a young girl, a young cis girl and an older cis man, and that becomes everyone's definition of abuse that trickles down to people regardless of their gender identity. If they haven't experienced rape, but they've had photos taken of them nude, or they've experienced other forms of touch or verbal forms of abuse, they're less likely to define themselves as someone who's experienced sexual harm are less likely to access support services, are less likely to heal.

If you are somebody who's experiencing sexual violence and you're trans, you are more likely to experience your service being closed. And it's happened in so many charities where charities will say, oh, we know that, like we have a trans support service, but we also have a queer support service. So let's just lump them into that and close that service because we don't have enough money. What does that do? We hear stories. You know, unfortunately not all queer communities are safe communities for trans people. And I'm not the one to speak on this, but you know, we hear stories all the time of, you know, lesbian, gay people who don't prescribe to gender non-conforming people. And then that can affect trans people coming into safe spaces. 

And then you might not want to come to a safe space like that because you don't feel like your identity is being seen. And you might worry that you're being seen as an abuser or triggering other people. It's this horrible cycle. Organizations that work with marginalized groups when they're so small and so under-resourced, they're more likely to be fighting against each other willingly or not for money.

So that can cause a lot of toxicity where, oh, but I'm a trans organization and you're a trans organization. But how comes you've got this money and I haven't? And there's less ability to see how we can work forward together because to think is a luxury. And when you're scrambling for resources, a lot of these organizations are survivor led themselves because the survivors don't see themselves in mainstream media, it perpetrates this endless cycle that never ends. 

So if you're listening to this, this episode, and I mean say to you, because if you're listening to this episode, it's probably because you are not transphobic or you're interested at least in the issue. I hope this gives you a bit of a rundown as to how this affects absolutely everyone who's experienced sexual harm.

Raf:

And I think especially if you're from a marginalized community, the constant need to justify why you should exist in a certain space takes away so much time from actually doing the work that can create change. You know, when in my old job we spent probably a good 30% of our time educating other providers on why they should be providing the kind of service that we did, which is really important work, but that meant that was 30% of the time where we weren't able to support people in the way that we wanted.

You know, there's so many instances where if you don't get funded, there's not research on the work that you do. And if you don't have research on the work that you do, you're less likely to get funded. So it's this kind of self perpetuating cycle where you're constantly scrabbling around for smaller and smaller pots of money. And like you said, instead of working together, you're kind of forced to be pit against each other because there's nothing there. 

And I think that is often, unfortunately, the perspective that more established, generally trans exclusionary groups take. Because from their perspective, trans people are coming in, they're taking the money, they're taking the resources, they're taking the time that they need to talk about their issues, which to a certain extent I agree with. There is not enough space, time, resources allocated to the issue of gender-based violence. The problem is that's not the issue of trans people, that's not the issue of marginalized people, that's the issue of the society that we live in. You know, it's such a massive issue where, actually gender-based violence is not a central issue in many conversations that we should be having.

But like I said, that's not the fault of trans people or trans inclusive services, you know, So I think when we're all kept in this situation where we're kind of like fighting over the scraps of what exists that keeps everyone down. It doesn't, it doesn't help anyone.

Sophia:

Absolutely. And I would even go as a step farther as to say I think it's because sexual abuse is labeled as a gender-based violence issue. Not everyone will agree with me. My thinking on this might change in a few years, but I genuinely think a lot of the challenge around this sector is that we take sexual abuse that happens in so many different types of communities, you know, different types of races, genders, identities, religions, so many things. And we love that to be called gender-based violence. And so it almost opens the door for a lot of gender critical theorists and people who are critical of trans bodies to claim this type of violence as one of their own and usurp the idea of what triggering means.

So when I wrote the article for Shadow, the one that you read, one of my solutions was actually to say, stop framing child sexual abuse as a gender-based violence issue. It is a sexual abuse issue that affects all groups. But of course I understand if people think differently.

Raf:

I mean, I think I do slightly disagree, because I think that sexual violence is inherently gendered, you know, and by that I mean that gender is a politics of power and control. I think that gender is not necessarily like a dirty word or the incorrect word to be using.

I think the problem is that it's applied wrong by people who do not have the interests of survivors at heart. You know, so, if you say that something's gender-based violence, what the vast majority of people mean, they mean violence against women and girls. So I think the work that you and I do is much more about opening up what gender-based violence means and not necessarily removing gender from the conversation entirely because I still think it's a really important thing to hold. But, you know, we can disagree.

Sophia:

Oh my God, we can so disagree. And I think it's so healthy to have these conversations where we do. And actually I see a lot of what you're saying in that because I think, I guess the reason I think the way I do is because I think that the conversation of gender as is as much as important to this issue as the discussion on race as the discussion of disability.

So for me it's just. How do I call this what it is? Child sex abuse. So it's quite clear the issue that we're trying to solve, but that has come from the fact that I have witnessed time and time again my idea of what GBV, gender-based violence, has become a very certain type of VAWG.

And I think it's really interesting because there's another point where we slightly disagree. And I remember, when we were talking about how we did our recording and I said, oh yeah, like I totally see how a lot of the criticisms that I put forward can be described as anti-TERF. But I prefer to use the word gender critical feminist when I talk about these groups of people who are anti trans because that's what they call themselves now. So they call themselves gender critical theorists. And my thinking is if you meet people with the language that they use to describe themselves, they're more likely to listen to your cause and your point of view.

But then you came back with a really, really important point. I don't know if you remember what you said.

Raf:

I think I do. I think I basically said that to use their language is to almost give credence to a theory that is not coherent, that doesn't really exist, that kind of is really linked to the far right, is linked to nationalism, anti like racist sentiment.

It's really not a coherent ideology that exists like in and of itself. And to use the word gender critical I think gives too much validity to something. You know, a lot of people think that the word TERF is a slur. I personally don't believe that it is a slur. But I think people do not like the word trans being central to a label to define them. I think they'd much rather be called gender critical because then you can be gender critical about anything. You can be gender critical about race politics, you can be gender critical about women's space in the workplace.

You know, it much more easily lends itself to far right ideologies than simply I, you know, a trans exclusionary radical feminist. Because actually if you say that you're a radical feminist to a lot of far right spaces, they won't listen to you. They're not giving you funding, they're not giving you anything, you know, so to speak, gender critical, that kind of sanitizes the whole notion of what anti trans politics is.

Sophia:

Yeah, that's a really important point. I guess, maybe going forward I would say gender critical, which is what I put in the article, but I think you're right. And another thing you said that really stuck with me was regardless of whether I call them the name that they want me to call them or not, they're still actively harming me, so why should I avoid them that grace.

Raf:

So, and I think, you know, meeting someone where they're at, when they fundamentally don't think that you should exist is quite a sticky thing to do. And often, you know, I go back and forth between should trans people have meaningful and open dialogue? You know, should we do what people say we should do, which is have conversations with grace and with understanding and empathy.

And I think this space is doing that. You know, I hope there are people who are watching this who maybe are not trans inclusive or haven't been trans inclusive, but are able to hear this with, like, open hearts and understanding. But I think the vast majority of the time when you talk to people like that, they don't come into it with an open heart, with a thought to be changed. Because you can't argue against a fundamental point which is that trans people do exist.

Sophia:

Yeah, absolutely.

Raf:

You know, it's difficult to argue the negative.

Sophia:

Yes, absolutely. And I’m also extremely aware that the way that I can use that word without as much emotional intent is because I have the privilege of being seen and being a cis woman, right?

So I'm not the direct point of target of this hate. I remember once there was a protest. It was actually diabolical. I had a trans person coming to meet me for a meeting and outside the building was an anti trans protest happening.

Luckily they had left by the time the person arrived, but obviously I told them use a different entrance and whatnot. But I went up to them, I was like, can I just understand what it is you're trying to protest against? And they were saying the rapes crisis centers are now becoming trans inclusive and that's increase, that's victimizing us.

And I said wait, so is it that you don't believe that trans people exist? And they were like, oh no, we know they exist. We just think they're crazy and then they're taking up all of our spaces.

Raf:

Yeah. And I think, I mean the recent, well not so recent now, but the ECHR decision on whether trans people should be allowed to use the bathroom that they want to use. The argument from the head of the ECHR was well, trans people should just use different facilities if they exist.

And the fundamental issue is those facilities don't exist. You know, a lot of what anti trans activists will tell you is we don't want trans people to not get support. We just want them to use their own support. That doesn't exist. It's nowhere. You know, we need established organizations to be more inclusive or trans people will continue to get no services.

Sophia:

This bathroom thing. And I'm going to say another word which will rile you more. Sports. I have never seen so many people suddenly caring about where they go toilet and who plays sport. That with this debate and with this hate, because again, I think it's taking a very, very, very specific type of experience that doesn't apply to all trans people — if we just talk about the sport — and use that as the standing case to argue that trans people should not get any support full stop. Or that they're somehow out to get people. And I think that's the thing. We've got to a current point culturally where we can no longer just take someone as they are, trans identity or not, but almost usurp everything they stand for as a direct cause of hate.

Raf:

Yeah.

Sophia:

And when that environment is happening within a child sex abuse space, it becomes more of a toxic situation than it is now.

Raf:

Well, because you know, if you erase trans people from sport and especially elite sport, which is what they talk about a lot, you are erasing trans people from public life, from publicity, from being famous. 

For example, if you stop trans people using the bathroom, how can they go out and be in public life? If you stop people from accessing services, if they're trans, how can they go again and be in public life? And I think that's the fundamental fact of it, is they do not want trans people to be in public life, whether or not they admit it. You know?

Sophia:

And the same thing could be argued for disabled bodies, again, of which there is another overlap. If you're a disabled person and you use mobility aids like a wheelchair or a walking chair stick, and you cannot get to a bathroom that can accommodate your literal needs, and the equipment that you use going outside, planning a day out is so, so much harder.

So some people just don't bother. Absolutely, understandably So it's this gradual, you know, we saw it Post World War II with the different dimensions for bathrooms with disability for disabled people. And we saw the gradual erasure of disabled spaces and disabled bodies. And then with World War II, when they had more veterans who were being disabled, they started to talk about, oh, actually, we are completely erasing, you know.

Raf:

Yeah.

Sophia:

And what we don't realize with the dimensions for disabled bathrooms now is a lot of the original dimensions are still based on the wheelchair sizes from World War II, which are a lot smaller than what they are now. So even when we don't mean to with disabled bodies, we end up excluding them, and we just go with what the norm is or what the general consensus and policy are.

It's the same with trans, as we've both described at length now. And what we are witnessing now, in the same way that we saw in the past with disabled bodies, is the gradual erasure of trans bodies from existence. Thank you so much for bringing that to my attention.

Raf:

There's one more point I wanted to bring up, actually, which is about, the protest that you went to when we're talking about trans people accessing rape crisis. And a lot of the pushback that I hear is that it makes survivors uncomfortable, or it could make these imagined survivors uncomfortable or triggered or scared to access a service.

And I guess, fundamentally, I don't believe that any one survivor's comfort is more important than any others. You know, if someone is uncomfortable with a trans person being in that space, they should be given the grace and time to work that out. But that doesn't automatically mean that trans people should be excluded from spaces, the comfort of that one person.

And that's not to say that all survivors don't deserve, you know, safety, comfort, support, because they absolutely do. But it is to say that this is a much larger issue than any one person's personal feelings about trans people. And, often I do ask people who are survivors who may be worried about, for example, seeing a trans woman in a rape crisis centre interrogate why you feel like that. What are the fundamental reasons why you feel like that? How can you support yourself to feel more safe and comfortable? How can you resource yourself in spaces where you might encounter a trans person? You know, that doesn't impact on that other person's fundamental right to access that space?

Sophia:

So true. And to unpack, what you've said a little more for people who might be new, one of the other major arguments that people who claim to be gender critical. Should we go with that?

Raf:

Yeah.

Sophia:

That people who say they're gender critical use in this sector is that they say, oh, well, imagine being raped or sexually abused by a man and then going to a support service where you think everyone is going to have gone through that same experience only to find that there is a man in a dress sitting in that room with you.

Now, that is really reductive on so many levels. One, because it doesn't acknowledge that the person in the room is a woman, et cetera. But two, as you've rightly said it again, pits this hate against other people who've experienced sexual harm as opposed to the structures that cause and perpetrate and encourage it.

And, I would like to throw in here that trigger looks so different to so many people. My triggers are the queen, playing what's it, Scrabble and going to the countryside. Like, who the hell is going to be able to predict those things? Absolutely nobody.

And, I think we need to sort of really think about what trigger means in this space and where triggers come from too, and they will always cause an emotive response. I don't think Scrabble should be banned just because it triggers me, for example. And I don't think trans people should be banned from spaces because it can trigger other people.

I really think you're right. Like, think about where that cause of harm and discomfort comes from and is it related to the individual directly in front of you? You should most likely know.

Raf:

Yeah.

Sophia:

Again, thank you so much for bringing that to our attention, Raf.

Raf:

You're very welcome.

Sophia:

Moving to the final section before the do's and don'ts, I'd love to talk about healing because I think it's so important to this whole discussion around trans bodies. But also, as someone who's experienced sexual harm. And I think you have a really lovely perspective on it that's very realistic.

Raf:

Yeah, I mean, we've talked quite a lot before filming about, like, how healing at the moment has almost become my full time job. I spent a long time, you know, working really, really hard, thinking that everything, everything in my life would be okay as long as I have work.

You know, if I had, if I was doing good things, if I was being a good person, I would be fine. And actually, a couple of years ago, my whole life just completely, like, crashed in around me and I realized that that's not the way that I could live my life anymore. So I've spent a long, long time investing in what the world I think actually needs from me, which is for me to be healed and well and able to engage in things like this. And I would not have been able to do that without interrogating what happened to me as a child, my triggers, things that I really did not want to explore from my past being a trans person and all of that stuff happening as well. And I think that healing is really difficult. But I don't think I'd be able to sit here having this conversation with you if I hadn't invested in that, you know?

Sophia:

Yeah, absolutely. And one thing you said that really, really struck with me is I don't want to glamorize healing as something that we can all just straight away do.

Raf:

Yeah.

Sophia:

And I think it's so important that you have to take a year of going full time, stopping work, understanding what this looks like, to really understand yourself and heal from what has happened. And I think healing is always a consistent journey. There's always going to be new things that come up with it.

Raf:

Well, especially if you think about childhood sexual abuse, you know, it's a lot of, I think a lot of people think, oh, but it's something that's happened to you so long ago, or it was an isolated experience that happened for this period of time. Why is it still such an issue for you now?

And I think, to that I say, yes, it did happen a long time ago, but also it has affected every single part of how I live my life, how I view the world, how I view myself, how I relate with other people. It has so many knock on effects to every single part of your life.

And actually to heal from that, if you think about it in its entirety, that's me, the entirety of my life, trying to unlearn things that I learned because of the harm that I experienced, you know, so actually, this time I'm taking now, compared to the nearly 30 years I've been alive, it's really not that long, you know, so I think any time that people take to try and look after themselves is really important.

Sophia:

Rest is radical, as they say. And, I think in your case, existing is radical as well. And, you know, there was something that Prince, who was, in the article that you read, said, and they said, you know, people might not want me to be here. I know people actively want me dead, like in the world as a concept of a person. I'm not going to spend my energy on that. I can just exist.

Raf:

Yeah. And whether or not you agree with the fact that I'm trans or even believe that I'm trans or that any trans person is trans, we do still exist. You know, whether or not you believe that, trans childhood sexual abuse survivors exist, we do exist and are probably more than you think. You know, we're probably in the room with you

So something that I've really learned through this period is that I can't control what's happened to me in my past. You know, I can't control all of the bad things that have happened. But for me, every day that I spend living my life is that I control what I do with that day. So what that looks for me now is doing art, going to eco therapy groups, having therapy, you know, making all the food I want to make. And that feels really beautiful to be able to spend it with people that I care about.

Sophia:

People you care about, and communities that can confirm, and affirm who you are. That is really beautiful. And thank you for spending some of that treasured time with us today.

Raf:

You're very, very welcome.

Sophia:

So in this glorious section, we're going to do the do's and don'ts. So we're going to talk through what we should and shouldn't say when you're talking about childhood sexual abuse to trans people people or around trans people, do you have any concrete hard and fast don'ts for talking about child sex abuse and trans people?

Raf:

Don't assume that someone is trans because they were abused or that they were abused because they're trans.

Sophia:

Do you mean the reason that they are trans is because they were abused?

Raf:

Yeah. Yeah. Or that somehow being abused makes you more likely to be trans? Because correlation is not causation. But what I mean by don't assume that someone is trans because they were abused is to make sure that that person has autonomy about their experiences going back to people having their experiences put into boxes. I think we as humans have a really natural tendency to try and make things make sense. But often stories of childhood sexual abuse look really messy. People's experiences of that one of being trans are really messy. Don't try and look for this perfect reasoning for why things have happened, why you may or may not feel a certain way.

It's okay to live in that mess and to also not have answers for someone else's experience. I think that if someone is sharing the gift with you that they are an abuse survivor and that they're trans, it's not for you to try and interrogate why that's happened, why that person feels like that. It's for you to hold that space for that person.

Sophia:

Retweet, love it hard. That was actually one of mine. So I'm going to expand. Do not ask for details about the person's abuse in order to justify your understanding of their gender. So by that I mean where I have had people tell me that that has been their experience or others where they said oh, you know, but are you sure that you actually feel this way? Because if we unpick what you experienced, you know, all of that happened to you when you had a willy, but you don't have a willy anymore, so you kind of healed. 

You know, these are real things that survivors hear. And again, when you interrogate that way you reduce someone to their body parts first and foremost and you reduce their experience to what they can prove to you.

We have always as an organization, as a group said you do not have to share details of what happened for you to you in order for us to believe that you experience sexual harm. Finding yourself as someone who experienced sexual harm is a part of having agency and autonomy of your own body. Right?

And having agency on your autonomy of your own body is something that trans people certainly understand very well. So don't interrogate in that way.

Raf:

I think one last don't that I would say is please, please, please do not uncritically consume media. Especially if it's things like the BBC, the Times, the Telegraph. Make sure that you're really reading a variety of resources when you read about trans people.

You know I sometimes play game of my grandparents copy of the Daily Mail which, how many pages can I flip through of this Daily Mail before I get to an anti trans news article? It's generally like six or seven. I, you know, just a fun thing to do at my grandparents house.

Sophia:

I'm gonna say really good for your grandparents, though.

Raf:

What? Reading the Mail?

Sophia:

Oh, I thought you meant you're all huddling around…

Raf:

No, they’re just reading the Mail and I'm like I need to do something.

Sophia:

Oh, I see. Okay, rewind, take that back. Oh my God. Funnily enough, following on from the giggle, do not take trans joy if you can't understand trans suffering. And, what I mean by that is that, you know, a lot of queer discourse, queer memes have got into popular culture.

Like, you've heard me say slay about a million times. You know, there's so many other words, dialogues, actions that have come from queer, particularly trans culture, that we are also quick to jump on. You know, a great example is, you know, trans people coming into RuPaul's Drag Race who aren't accepted as being real drag queens because of their transness.

But we're all happy to accept queer joy in the form of RuPaul's Drag Race. Right? So what I mean by that is don't take somebody's joy without understanding that some of that joy came from the suffering. Again, it just reduces trans people to something that can be consumed as opposed to people in their own right.

So if you are going to engage in queer culture, make sure you understand the history of queer suffering, particularly of trans people and bodies, and realize that, you know, pride was originally a protest. Pride was originally started by trans people. Look at the histories of these thinkers that we will link below in the podcast that have shaped so much of the trickle down elements of queer culture that have come into popular culture today. And really sit with that before you start to think about engaging in a very surface level way.

Raf:

Especially black trans culture. Right. Like if we think about Stonewall, yeah, that was spearheaded by black trans women. And a lot of the time that culture is easily consumable, takeable without understanding the history.

But I think that, as an example is really important as well to say that trans history is everyone's history. It's not simply something that's just for trans people. It trickles down into every part of life and probably impacts the way that you live your life today.

Sophia:

Definitely. Well, definitely, because I think people are, even the very fact that people are aware of what transness is compared to a few decades ago just goes to show how far the movement has come. And also the existence of anti trans organizations has come from the fear of the power that this joy brings. So just like one of the first things we said, be critical, but be sensitive as well.

Raf:

Yeah, that’s all my don’ts.

Sophia:

Honestly same, but I feel like that gives people enough homework. Yeah, One of my do's is always question material that links sexually explicit material with a gender identity. So what I mean by that, is if there's child toys that are being used that look really explicit in sort of gender-based violence campaigns, if you see drag performers being talked about in gender-based violence campaigns, really stop and think, is this being used because it's sexually explicit? And what does this have to do with the concept of childhood sexual abuse? 

I think sometimes it can be really easy for your emotions to get in the way of sometimes rational judgment around what is actually being said. Particularly in the case of trans people and trans bodies, that is used for the negative. When you know, you see a drag performer, you see a strip dance, then you see, okay, that means trans people can't be in child sex abuse spaces or can't be survivors. So as an ally, like, that is one of my biggest do’s is just try to be really, really critical about where your shock comes from and when that might be linked to people's identities in a false way.

Raf:

That's a really good do.

Sophia:

Thank you. What is your do?

Raf:

So one of my do's is do approach trans people with grace and understanding. And by that what I mean is that as we, we've kind of said throughout the whole episode, it's more likely that trans people will not have been able to access support, therapy, the resources that they might need and so might be at completely different points in their healing.

I often describe being queer and being trans as kind of having its own queer time. So you know, if you come out when you're a teenager, for example, you've lived your entire life up to that point as a quote unquote, like cis straight person. So maybe in your 20s you're then going through your whole messy teenage phase that other people have had when they're 15, 16 years old. Queer people's time and like mental development may be completely different to what a cis and straight persons may be. So just have some, like, understanding and opening for that.

Sophia:

Absolutely. To unpack that again for people who might be new to the topic. You know, at school, in movies you watch when you're a teenager, you're used to understanding, you know, this concept of love is usually straight or involves a man and a woman. When you're queer and you come out or you don't and you know that that is not your experience, there is really little media on that you have to go out and find it.

There's almost a second puberty and almost in other senses when you're transitioning with hormones or if you go through surgery, you know, it's like having to reteach yourself absolutely everything that you've been taught about the world. So I think that was what you were getting at. Yeah, just that, just for our newbies who are new to the topic. So, yeah, and absolutely within that, like treat all of those experiences as that person's experience.

Raf:

Exactly.

Sophia:

Because it is.

Raf:

And you know, something that's really central to this podcast is that there is no perfect survivor. And I think there's no better example than probably a trans survivor for that.

Sophia:

Can you say more?

Raf:

The reason that I think that is because we've really challenged the narrative of mainstream gender-based violence services, what it means to be a survivor. Kind of what I've said about the tensions between your body, abuse of being trans, how that can kind of almost create like a cognitive dissonance. And also just that, often trans people are shoehorned into really neat boxes of who we are, how we're expected to perform. And that's not at all based in reality. So I think if you think of the perfect survivor in the media, you probably would never see a trans person in that role.

You know, if you had a BBC stock image of what you would have on a news article about childhood sexual abuse, a trans person would absolutely not be in that BBC stock image. 

Sophia:

Yeah. And just to kind of further that, so we talked about the launch of that report that came up today. It's being furthered by the work of some really incredible people actually. But every single one of them is not only a cis person, but is also a woman. So again, like really think about who is being the champion of sexual violence.

Love what you just said. Another do that I have again, specifically, if you're an ally, do write to sexual abuse services and ask them where the support is for queer, trans and non-binary people. I think every comment, every question can be used as a form of data, particularly in the child sex abuse space.

And so if a charity can say, we've had X number of people writing to us demanding trans specific services, they know that it's something people care about and it's one of the most basic things you can do. Especially at a time where a lot of organizations are very scared and reluctant to talk about transness.

This is one way where you can say, actually I don't think this needs to be something we're concerned about. This is something we need to be actively supportive.

Raf:

Yeah. And actually, that was going to be one of my do's as well. So other resources that you can try and have that impact in is if your council has things like Have Your Say surveys. So often there'll be, like, a big gender-based violence policy, they'll put out a Have Your Say.

Make sure that you fill those out because there are coordinated anti trans organizations that will flock to things like that and have their transphobic views. So do really, really make sure that your say as a trans ally is counted because it is important.

Sophia:

Absolutely. Really love that. Do remember every experience of being trans is different. You said it way back at the very beginning of recording, you know, you're trans and your non-binary, you use they/them pronouns — that could be really different to someone who defines as a trans woman, who might see themselves as a woman first and foremost, she/her pronouns, and that is that.

Jjust in the same way that not all people who experience childhood sexual abuse should be lumped into the same box, not all trans people should be lumped into the same box. What someone has gifted you in telling you that they're trans or sharing their pronouns with you is a way of getting to know them better. And that is how that should be received.

Raf:

Do remember that we as survivors have more that bring us together than brings us apart. So I think what we've really talked about here is about having to have solidarity between marginalized people. But you know, we have focused on trans identity in this episode but that doesn't mean that everything that we said can't be applied to every other type of survivor. I think that's really important to say.

Sophia:

Love that, love that. That's almost the perfect place to end it.

As always, we will link anything Raf and I have mentioned down in the comments and we just hope that you come with this with open mindedness in the spirit of serious joy that we always encourage and hope that we've kind of together opened some new perspectives for you that you might not have thought about before on this topic.

Raf:

Thank you.

Sophia:

Thank you, bye.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for listening to yet another iconique episode of Secrets Worth Sharing. I'm just dropping in here now to remind you to like, follow and subscribe on all the platforms, most notably Instagram, let's be for real @secretsworthsharing_ and you know the score if you want updates on any of the resources, links mentioned here, blogs, media, and links to our events go to our website www.secretsworthsharing.com. Also rate this podcast, ideally five stars, give it a like on YouTube. All of that really helps us to drive up funding so we can keep producing this iconic, engaging and community minded material. And with serious joy. Bye.