Is Your Ego in the Driving Seat? Taaka Awori & Daniel Pobee

Has anyone ever given you feedback, and instead of listening, you spent the whole time building your case for why they were wrong?

In this episode, Taaka Awori is joined by Daniel Pobee, leadership development practitioner, for a conversation on one of the quiet forces shaping leadership from the inside: the ego. Not ego as the enemy, but ego unchecked, sitting in the driving seat, mistaking dominance for leadership and defensiveness for strength.

Daniel and Taaka share real moments from their work with boards, teams, and organisations across the continent, the leader who goes silent-inducing the moment he walks into a room, the board member who couldn't let someone else hold the space, the fight over who sits in the front seat of the car. Small moments. Big signals.

They talk about what it actually looks like when ego takes over and offer a simple practice for catching it before it drives your next decision.

This is an invitation to notice. Where does your ego show up? And what is it protecting you from?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Most leadership conversations focus on what you do, the decisions you make, the strategies you set, the results you deliver. But there is another layer of leadership that sits underneath all of it. Less visible, less discussed, but often more impactful. It is the leadership around what's happening within you, the thoughts you keep returning to, the beliefs you rarely question, the emotions you carry into your leadership, and the emotions you avoid. The internal patterns that quietly shape how you show up in every room. Because leadership shows up in your organization is the same one that's already taking shape inside of you. And that is where this season begins. Not with more tools, not with more frameworks, not with more conceptual identities, but with awareness. Awareness of what is actually driving your leadership from within. So welcome to season four, where we focus on leading from within. The inner work of leadership. Has anybody ever given you feedback? And instead of really listening to them, you spent your whole time making the case as to why they were wrong? Or when was the last time you were in a room and you gave in an idea, put in a suggestion, and people disagreed with you, and instead of really listening, you insisted on your idea or sulked and made everybody realize you were not happy with what they suggested? Or when was the last time you were in a meeting and completely dominated the whole conversation because you felt you had the most important things to say. If you can relate to anything that I have just mentioned, any of these examples, you're in the right place. Welcome to this next episode where we're talking about the ego. And again, if you can relate to any of the examples I've given, this is the right place for you. Now, I am particularly excited about this episode because time and time again, as a coach and OD practitioner, I see the effects of an unchecked ego on leadership. And by the way, this is not the first time we're having this conversation on nuts and bolts around the ego. But because we keep seeing it coming up time and time again, we decided to have yet another episode on how your unchecked ego is affecting you as a leader. Now there's another reason I'm so excited, and it's because I have a new partner in crime, Daniel Poby. Daniel is an associate of Bussara Africa and a seasoned leadership development practitioner. Daniel, you're welcome. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Yes, welcome. It's lovely to have you.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yes. Fantastic. So, Daniel, we're talking about this effect of an unchecked ego on leadership. Tell me what you have seen in terms of how one not managing their ego is showing up in leadership. What have you seen in your experience?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, I'll just share a scenario. I mean, we're at a workshop and it was a great time. We're having a conversation, just having some tea, coffee, cocoa here and there. And whilst we're in the conversation, the leader joins us.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

And the moment the leader approaches, everybody goes silent. And in fact, the leader noticed it. It was so clear to him that he had to remark, Am I that boring? Why are you not talking once I had here? Because in the organization, the leader has given this impression and gotten people to keep quiet when he's around, he will do all the talking, he will just occupy the whole space and will not allow the other team members to come here. And so even at workshop and at break, whilst we're having casual conversations, we're not even discussing work. The moment the leader shows up, people just went silent. And if the leader had to remark, it was that obvious. And so this thing, it shows up. It shows up in organizations, in teams where uh people's ego show up. And if it's not checked, of course, we are not saying ego in itself is bad, but if it's not checked, then you have uh a problem. So that's nice, nice.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

That's uh that's a powerful example. Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure many of you can relate to that and have seen similar situations where again somebody just dominates is so dominating that people are afraid to speak up. But but Daniel said something that I think is important to raise now. We're talking about ego, ego, ego, and some, and he also talked about an excessive or unchecked ego. It's important for us to explain at this point what we mean by the ego. And when we're talking about the ego, we're talking about that sense of self. The story you tell about yourself, how you compare yourself to others. It's that your sense of identity, where you get your worthiness from. But what we have found for leadership, and you see, Daniel and I will differentiate in this conversation today, is that there's two things. There's the healthy ego, which is more about confidence, uh, and it's the confidence you need in leadership. It's the confidence to steer a group in a particular direction. It's the confidence to take bold risks, it's the confidence to come up with inner, that's the healthy ego. What we will be talking about here is the unchecked ego. It's that one that's easily threatened. It's the example Daniel gave of the one that always feels he must be in charge, must be on top, must always be talking. That's the one we'll be talking about in this session. So as we go through, it's important to differentiate between the two.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

You know, Taka, when we're doing psychology in school, they they told us how much you needed the ego. Because there's the yield, which is like the desires and all the impulses that you have. And then there is a superego that is the moral part. And so you need the ego in between to help get you a balance. Nice. Your life is well checked. So you need the ego, but it should be checked.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yes, it should be checked. And I always sometimes like to say, it shouldn't be in the driving seat. When it's in the driving seat, then you know you're in trouble. Now, now some of you might be wondering, eh, now this my ego, is it in the driving seat? Is it checked or not? So, so maybe we can give you some examples so you know, ah, is my ego unhealthy? Is it getting in the way of my leadership? So, Daniel, I know you gave us an example in the beginning, but what are some common patterns you have seen very practically that show that you better be careful, your ego is in the way.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, for me, the one that shows up more often is where you get a leader that wants to take all the credit. Hey, everything that works well, you know, it's me, and I'm the one making all the things happen in this place, and I'm the one helping us to achieve all the targets and all the goals. But when it comes to things not working well, it's the others. And then you hear statements like, I'm a good leader, it's just the team that I have that that is making things difficult. So they'll take all the credit and yet they'll put the blame on other people. And if you happen to have that kind of trait or that pattern in your life, then you want to check and be sure that your ego uh is not getting on the driving seat. Some also uh confuse their presence with their contribution. And they think that once I am in the room and in the space, then I'm making a contribution. And like I said, for some people, uh they they talk a lot, they will do a lot of talking and talking and talking and talking, and by the time they finish all their talking, there is little to add. I've seen a leader like that. Yeah, he will hop from one place to like Napoleon. You hope from one place to the other, and and and then Snowball has to come in and do this and do that and do this and do that. So eventually it's it's a lot of talking. They won't stop to ask, they won't stop to listen, they won't stop to find out what the opinion of the other person is. It's always telling, telling. Maybe you should share if you have some examples.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yes, yes, yes. Let me give you two that I've seen. One, I tell you when the ego, and and some of this I have to say, yeah, I'm speaking for myself. I can tell when my ego really shows up is around when I'm given feedback. When my ego is in the driving seat and it's all big and bad, when I get feedback, I see it as a threat. And all of a sudden, I feel like um my identity has been challenged. So somebody has been threatened. Oh, I'm not a good facilitator, I'm not a good coach. So I think feedback and the way you treat feedback is also a good way of telling whether your ego is in the driving seat. Um, another one is similar to what you you you mentioned, that example you gave of the leader at the coffee break, is where a leader who surrounds themselves with what I call mirrors, not windows. And what do I mean by that? It's a leader who only surrounds themselves with people who will agree with them. And that anyone who doesn't agree with them is all of a sudden seen as disloyal. And so soon everybody starts being like, oh, yes, Taka, yes, so and so. So I think over time the team self-selects. It just becomes so usually again, that's a symptom of ego dominating. What else have you seen?

SPEAKER_00 10:21

There are also some leaders who struggle with maybe their team members also shining. And so where we are in a space where they want to be the one that is seen, yeah, and sometimes if they see that this particular uh team member is shining, uh, they can send you on an errand or they take you out of the meeting, they get you something else to do because they find that you are competing with them so far as they they shining out there and being there, maybe if you like the light in the room, yeah. Everyone retire I'm the one in there. And so every time people have to to you know stock their ego and and let them feel good and they pumper them and all that.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Tak us, yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

No, go ahead, you finish, you finish.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

I was I was moving into a new area.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Okay, let you know, as as you are describing that, I think I want to come back to something that you said in the beginning, yeah, about and and particularly what you learnt in psychology about needing the ego. Because as for our listeners and those watching us, I don't want you to feel that Daniel and I are just sitting here judging. This is the bad leader who does this and this and this. I think we've all recognized that the ego is not the enemy, huh? But we do need a healthy ego. It's when it becomes unchecked. But what I've also found is that an unchecked ego, and I think all of us have seen this, I've seen it with myself, is usually covering up deep insecurity. Because the ego often is that part of us that wants to protect us. And so I know my ego shows up moments when I'm most insecure. So, as Daniel and I have given you examples of when your ego can show up in your leadership, I think one is the awareness, but two is starting to recognize that it's not a judgment on you as a person, but maybe what's happening is that instead of the healthy confidence, what's operating in your leadership is this sense of a deep lack of confidence. So that's why that example you just gave was very powerful. When you are not secure, when another person shines, you feel diminished. And you feel, why not me? And so maybe part of that work is recognizing that that's what's that's what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

I just remember the funny example. Okay. Okay. So I had to work with a board, um, did some some training for the board.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

And uh the head of the organization comes to me and says that the one board member has actually consulted the board chair asking that if we remove the executive director from the board. Oh, okay. And uh what is his reason? His reason is that so that they will have free room to operate. And I didn't know this before I went to do the session with them.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

And so when I had a session with them, I I saw an example of what the executive director has to deal with. We we have a program an agenda with the board is going through it. I have an agenda, we are doing the session, and there's this part that I need to do. And just when I was about starting, I introduced, and we're just going to do a board charter.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Oh, I see. Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

So just when I I introduced it and got my cards trying to get them involved, this board member says, This is too big for us to discuss here. Why don't we put that aside and come back to it later? Thank God I didn't say anything. And because when I introduced the item for the board charter, I added that what we are going to do is just going to be a draft.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

We are going to just get something as a draft and then we can work on it later.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

And so it was the other board members who now had to remind him that he told us that what we are going to do is just a draft.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

And so you can see someone who uh feels like, give me space to shine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

So was he threatened by you wanting to do the board charter?

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Did that somehow so it was later when I was asking the executive director what really happened in the room with his comments? Then he now told me what this board member wanted to do to put him on the side and get things running his way. And so as we are talking about this, really, what we are drawing our attention to is that you want to check your ego. The ego is supposed to serve you, but you want to be sure that at this point, is it serving me? Is it serving me? And is it serving me right? Yes, where the ego is taking me, is it right? So that you don't fall to always wanting to shine, always wanting to outshine other people, always wanting to be the one that you know is doing all the talking. And and well, as as facilitators, we meet this.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

You meet people who want to you know hijack the whole conversation in the room and I'm doing that now.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You see, awareness, you're able to check it.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

And so that is there. Okay. That that that door stills into what I wanted to talk about because but just before you do, okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

So sorry, Daniel, I interrupted you because I just wanted to say, folks, if you're enjoying this conversation and you would like to go deeper on topics such as this, join our exclusive online community rogue leadership, which is designed to accompany you to do the inner work required for exemplary leadership. Please click on the link in the show notes to learn more. So, Daniel, please continue.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, so I I was getting into maybe someone is is listening and is watching and is asking him or herself, how do I check my ego? How do I fall into this trap? And I I wanted to just go into that area. The first thing I want to talk about is the need to make self-awareness very, very important. Don't just see it as an event, okay? Because it's a process, it doesn't just end. The more you get into it, the more you are going to get more self-aware. And so you don't want to wait for a crisis situation before you get into reflection to find out what is it that I can do in order to get out of it, make it a process. Okay. It's it's a whole learning loop, of course. And as they say, life is not about judgment, yeah, it's about learning.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

I want to give you an example of exactly what you're saying, how self-awareness is a key check. Um a few months back, I was facilitating an event. And we had agreed on a particular process that we were going to use. And the clients who were participants also in the event changed their minds, and they thought we would do something different. And it's so interesting, Daniel, but I realized that I had a whole tantrum around it. And my tantrum, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't something, I didn't shout, you know, I'm a professional, but I was sulky. I was like, okay, fine, this is their thing. But I could, I had to check myself and say, all right, am I upset because I truly believed that the process I had designed was going to give the outcome? Or am I upset because my ego was like, ah, it has to be my way. Why are they bringing in another way? I am the facilitator. I'm the professional. I know it. Who are they to tell me? So constantly I had to really pause and look within and check myself. You see, that awareness to say, okay, what is this all about? So I'm I'm so with you on self-awareness being one of the key things. Yeah. So please go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yeah. So then the next thing that I want to talk about is that we feel safe around bad news. And so some bad things may come, some things you don't expect. Maybe your example also uh, yes, this point. And so that you don't expect that people should always bring you good news. It should always be praise, it should always be a nice compliment. It should always be that what you are bringing out is the best. Just open up. Okay, just open up so that your ego does not get in the way. As you open up, it allows for people to tell you exactly what they want to tell you and not sugarcoat things for for you.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

So it's almost like being aware. When you talk about bad news, it what's also coming to me is this idea of notice your reaction when things don't go as you plan. That's the bad news. So that was in my situation. Because usually the ego gets immediately threatened by these kinds of incidences.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And then you want to defend.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Then you want to defend, then you want to insist. It must be my way. You want to, yes, so nice one. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

So another thing that will help if you don't want to fall for this trap is to find in your team, can I get a truth teller, someone that can tell me as it is. I like that. And not just what I want to hear. And for such ones, you need to protect them. You you need to protect them. I I worked with a team where I noticed that someone is in the habit of saying it as it is. Nice. And sometimes this person, she could get on the names of other team. I like this. In in team meeting, she she makes a contribution and it's like uh this person is is uh trying to get into my space. This is not your area. Don't don't talk about my department and and don't talk about my area and all that. But then as a leader, you want to find such ones and you want to protect them because they help to bring out the the truth and you want to get them protected on on the team. Another point is for you to watch your reactions, watch how you react to things. And the examples we've been giving, even as facilitators, will tell you that you must check your reaction. So not just your decisions. Um, decisions are fine, but in that split second between when you are triggered and how you respond, you just want to check how am I reacting when things like that come up? As I as I shared in that workshop, someone brings up something and you just have to pause and just ask yourself what is the best way to respond. That gap, you know, and I I like the way you call it a sacred pause.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah, the sacred pulse. You need a sacred pulse.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Yeah, yeah. That sacred pulse helps you to come out with the the right reaction. And and and it may not be big, it's just small. And sometimes for us as facilitators, the participants they will notice it. They'll smell it that you're getting uneasy. Yes, yes, you're getting uncomfortable. All of a sudden, your calm is gone, and all of a sudden. Yeah, getting jiche and all those things. And you want to watch the reactions, the reactions that come when anything comes up in your team.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

So there's something you said, Daniel, that I think I really want to lift up. And it's something that brings up how the ego likes urgency and speed. And part of learning how to check when it's taken over. And I think one of the key messages I would love for our listeners to take away is something you said originally, that the ego is not bad. We need the ego. It's unchecked ego. The ego becomes problematic when it's in the driving seat. And the way as we move the conversation to say, so what do you do to make sure it's not in the driving seat? I think what I'm hearing you clearly say is you slow it down. That sacred pause enables you to say, How have I just reacted? Maybe the way I'm reacting is my ego all of a sudden realizing, ooh, you know, feels it needs, but I need protection. My identity is being threatened. But by slowing it down, that sacred pause then gives me the opportunity to then choose how I want to not just react, but to respond, whether I want to come from healthy confidence or I want to come from another, another space.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

And you know, recently there is this video that has gone viral.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

And unfortunately, uh a pastor is suffering it. And so it's a church environment. Okay. And they they asked people to give feedback.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Talking about issues of offerings and one member of the church decided to give feedback, and she picked on the pastors and said it as it is. In fact, I'm talking about the watch your reactions. Because then when she was giving the feedback, it wasn't pleasant. She just went straight. She people are the thieves. Then the the the pastor is now asking, please summarize, please hurry up.

unknown 24:00

Oh no!

SPEAKER_00 24:02

And and it's like this man is is just caught in the center of it, and you want to react. Yes. That's a challenge. Yes. You want to react, and and the ego is not going to lie down for someone to give it.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

To come and defame you and this kind of a oh.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

And unfortunately, this video is out there on the internet now.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Oh, oh, oh. But maybe you're bringing up with a church example. I think you're bringing up something important. That leadership and the trappings of leadership, particularly on the African continent, will fan your ego. Because there are many trappings of leadership. People expect you will speak first, they expect you will speak the most. They expect you will speak last. They expect that you will drive in the car if you're a politician with all the outriders and move everybody off the road like nobody else needs to get to work at the same time. I mean, they just give you so many things to just build up your own self of importance. And at times, if you don't take up that space, people are a bit like, but what kind of a leader are you? Are you really leading us? Because we want a leader who's strong, who's out there, who's visible. And so if you're not navigating the expectations of those that you lead as well, because the whole culture is about pumping up your ego, then you might also find it difficult. So you're not just working on yourself, but you're also working on those around you on the expectations of how you show up as a leader. Have you also seen the same dynamic?

SPEAKER_00 25:39

And and sometimes, as you're saying, it's it's not really sometimes the fault of the leader. Yes. And it's it's the culture in the organization. You are supposed to be the wisest. And in a can, they say Panin Variya Ninsuasa once once you speak, it's supposed to be done. And so if you are not careful as a leader, the the team will make you feel like, well, you have the wisest ideas, you have the best ideas, so you should be the one talking, you should be the one giving the direction and and all that. And another funny example.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Okay, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

There was tension at at a workshop, and I just went behind to go find out what really caused the tension. Apparently, before they set off, the team was repairing and the members wanted the leader, the boss, to feel big. And so they said, Oh, we're all going to travel in the company car, and the executive director, the director was sitting front.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

And the director said, Yes, of course, yes, of course, I'm going to sit in front. So, unfortunate for him, he delays in coming to join. And the enterrage had a board chair. So the board chairman comes and takes the front seat. And throughout the journey, the director was just uh so unhappy because he was unhappy and squeezed the face and he's not talking to anybody, and it it accompanied them on the whole journey after their workshop. And you want to find out what really is causing the tension. Yes. And it's because of who is sitting in the front seats. Who is sitting in the front seat? And it's because the team members they have given the director that right, yeah, the front seat. And so the board chair who is not in the staff. Yes, didn't know. And so he comes and he takes the front seats, and the director comes and is expecting his front seat to be available for him.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

So part of what you're doing is changing culture. I remember at Action Aid, and and it it was I remember one incident where we would travel those days, we would go up to Tamale and we'd have to drive because there weren't any flights. Remember those days. And so we're taking uh a Nissan patrol, and by then I was not my I was a lot slimmer. And so when I looked at everybody in the car, I realized, you know what, because we needed somebody in the front seat, we needed someone in the back seat, and we needed people in the jump seats in the back. And when I looked at the situation, I realized, hmm, I'm probably the youngest here, and I'm probably the smallest here. I am probably the best person to sit in the jump seat in the back. And they were horrified. People were like, country director, to sit in the jump seat. But I'm like, this is just functionality, this is practicality. I see some of you, there's no way you will fit back there. So before they could say, Jack, I was in the jump seat. I'm like, nobody's moving from me, me from this seat. This is where. So I think part of it is also they looked at you another way. They were just like, okay, this one, this small girl, she's coming to do things differently in this place so that we could slowly start to change the culture. We we probably need to wrap up soon, but I know there's a question that has come up when we talk about ego. Um, because I suspect that many of you who are watching this show are not actually the ones with huge egos. Otherwise, you wouldn't even feel you need to learn. Instead, you might be reporting to people with big egos. It could be the executive director, it could be your board chair, if you are the ED. And as you're listening to Daniel and I, you're probably wondering, hmm, what if the problem is not just me? What if it's my boss who has a big ego? So, Daniel, what do you and I can see he's already signed. He's like, as we end the show, before we close, any tips, suggestions in terms of how you manage somebody with a big ego.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

So um as as an individual, as as someone that has to deal with another person with a big ego.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Particularly if you're reporting to them, they're your boss, or in our case, it could be your client.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Then you you have to find what is their currency and see how best you can give them their currency. So by currency, I'm talking about what is it that sells with them, what is it that satisfies them. So if it's a numbers person, you want to give them numbers. If they are a story person, you want to give them the story, so you are able to get the best out of them. Because when they are in the best of mood, you are sure to get the best out of them. And if you, for such an individual, if you want to give them credit, then you want to give that credit and give it loudly. Let everyone know that you appreciate um your boss, you appreciate the CEO for what they are doing and to praise them. And then I think it's also important for you to stay curious and watch out and see. Um, when you're about to make any statement, when you're about to make any contribution, for you to be sure you are not stepping where you are not supposed to step. Because those who have strong egos, they also want to uh put it.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

It's very territorial, isn't it? Yes, hear you.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

And you want to be sure you are not overstepping, you're not making statements that suggest that you are in a hurry to take their seats. Oh, I like that to unseat them and take over. These are the thoughts that I can.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Oh, I like that. I like that. I would add, I like that. So know their currency, so know what they value and give them that. So don't start fighting them in that that respect. You'll just waste a lot of energy. I like the idea of getting curious to better understand them. I think I would add, don't take it personally. Because the things that ego-driven leaders can do, huh? You start to think it's you, they make you insecure. So don't take it personally. And the last thing I would say is protect yourself.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Okay, okay, where my boss made me feel insecure. And it's interesting that a colleague noticed and noticed the effect that was having on me. And so he now drew my attention to it and said, Daniel, I see you are getting uncomfortable here. Be very careful. And what he said is that some of these things that he are taking it to personal, within a short time, they will pass. And just by that advice, and the fact that he had even noticed that about me really helped me to just check and be sure what is the main issue here and not focus on things that really do not matter. Yeah. And so I was able to shift my focus back on, if you like, what is the purpose and and what we are doing in your life? I like that.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

I like that. And at the same time, at times if they go too far, holding them accountable. But but I like the things you've raised. So, folks, we need to call this a wrap. I hope you found this conversation useful. We started out by talking about the fact that the ego is not your enemy, but still recognizing the difference between healthy ego and unchecked ego that's in the driving seat. So you know what it looks like, and I hope you will display that self-awareness within. And we gave you some tips in terms of ensuring that indeed your ego does not unwittingly and consciously get into that driving seat. So, awareness is the key. So, thank you again, Daniel. Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to seeing you in another episode. All right, see you in the next episode. Ciao, I'm not sure.