[00:00:00] James Breese: Strength Matters Media. Video. Print. Podcasts. 

[00:00:05] Josh Kennedy: So today's topic is how long should you rest between running intervals? A very popular topic, a question rather, on Google, and we're going to address that and how we approach it, because we have changed our approach over the years. Um, one, it potentially depends on what type of intervals.

[00:00:23] Josh Kennedy: intervals you are running, whether it's aerobic or anaerobic. But the major shift, uh, that we have made here at Strength Matters is using heart rate, uh, recovery. James, do you want to talk a little bit about why we made that shift? Yeah, 

[00:00:38] James Breese: it's in a nutshell, it's more personal and unique and individual to the person we're training with.

[00:00:43] James Breese: And I think that's really important because everybody feels differently. Every day, depending on their lifestyle, stress with their kids, stress with their sport, stress with anything, maybe stress from food. Maybe they had food poisoning the night before or something like that. [00:01:00] So, in a world full of gadgets and in a world full of data now, it's more, much more readily available that somebody has a watch.

[00:01:09] James Breese: I have an Apple watch, for example, that I use. Other people have Garmin's, other people have Polar's, but it makes no difference what you have. But people now are using this data to track all sorts of information from sleep, HRV, and heart rate. So it's more readily available. Now, we're a big fan of making every training plan personalized to the nth degree where practicable, I think is the best way to put it.

[00:01:32] James Breese: Practicable. Nice. Practicable. That's where, I don't know where I pulled that from, but it's come out from somewhere, right? But it's important we try and do this. Now, the problem I've always had with time based intervals is that it's always Assuming that you're in top condition or on peak performance, right?

[00:01:51] James Breese: But sometimes you're not, right? For whatever reason, whatever stress reason here. So what we wanted to find a way was a better way of doing this. And now, for those who are aware [00:02:00] of how we approach base building, aerobic base building for a lot of runners in 5Ks, 10Ks and marathons, we use aerobic threshold work a lot, which is based around the MAF formula, the MAFETO method, which is 180 minus your age, give or take 5.

[00:02:15] James Breese: Uh, depending on your, your fitness, your health, and your, you know, if you've, if you've been ill or not. Injury status, etc. Exactly. So what that means, as an example, I am 40. So if I take 180 minus 40, I want to run at a constant level at my heart rate at 140 beats and less, ideally between 135 and 40. That's my ideal target zone to be at.

[00:02:40] James Breese: to run consistently at aerobic threshold, okay? Is it perfect? No. Is it simple? Yes. Is it easy to use? Yes, because most people have these heart rates. Is it good enough? Yes. Right, it's been proven here, so it's more what's practicable, uh, as opposed to what's best sometimes, and we find that's useful. So, we always knew we had to like this, because [00:03:00] sometimes someone's pace is off at an easy run, depending on how they've been, and how they've had, and how they've trained over the course of the week.

[00:03:06] James Breese: So, when we came into doing interval training, We wanted to find a way to do it as well, so we've adopted the MAFETO method to using heart rate recovery in between sets, or intrasets, right? It's really important to use this now, it's intraset repeatability. That's what we're looking at here in terms of recovery.

[00:03:27] James Breese: Isn't that right, Josh? Yep, 

[00:03:28] Josh Kennedy: absolutely. And this was something, um, We actually, I think I came across it from a very old blog of Dan having a chat with Phil Maffetone and I have not found it anywhere in Phil Maffetone's, uh, workings on his website or anything. Myself, I don't, I can't find anywhere he's spoken about it apart from with, with Dan.

[00:03:47] Josh Kennedy: And I thought it was a great... Great idea. So we started testing it out, and it seems to have worked really well. And it is something also that we've now discovered that Mike Boyle uses in his training with his athletes. Um, similar. [00:04:00] And I think, wasn't there a video you put online or maybe on one of Mike's courses that we did where it shows They actually had people's heart rate showing up and how long they all start at the same time, but then everyone's recovery differs between, I think they were doing fly tens or something, weren't they?

[00:04:17] Josh Kennedy: They were doing, they were doing 

[00:04:18] James Breese: like, um, shuttle runs is what they were doing. They're doing shuttle runs. Yeah, it was his course. I think conditioning for the athlete, I think it was 

[00:04:23] Josh Kennedy: his course. Yeah, that's it. And obviously then, uh, people's rest intervals start to get. You know, some people's get slightly longer and longer and longer with some people go, you know, some people can go within 30 seconds.

[00:04:37] Josh Kennedy: They just have great recovery. Um, so, so it is interesting. It's much more personalized. And as you say, when we're doing this, let's say you're doing a 400 meter run. Four times in one set or something, I just say for intraset repeatability, we'd use heart rate, recover back to 160 minus age before you do the next 400 meters.

[00:04:58] Josh Kennedy: Now, if you're doing, I don't [00:05:00] know, four rounds of that, what about the rest periods in between? Cause that's slightly different. 

[00:05:03] James Breese: Yeah, it's, so it's, it's interesting. Like, so yeah, so we came across that Mike doing this and he found that it was 120 beats per minute where most of his athletes would come underneath.

[00:05:12] James Breese: Um, obviously if you remember, he's working with athletes of a certain age group. Particularly the younger age, but we're working with older athletes. So we kind of found it separately, but we realized, oh, we're talking the same language. I think it's the best way to put it. So what we, again for me, so what we did was this adapting this, so 180 minus your age is the aerobic threshold.

[00:05:31] James Breese: So what we did was it's one, we used 160 minus your age for your heart rate recovery time. So what does that look like? I'm 40. So if I'm doing a set, let's say I'm doing 400 meter repeats, right? That's just to give that an example. Horrendous, by the way. So, so you got once I do a 400 meter set and then wait till my heart rate drops below 160 minus my age, which is 40, which is 120.[00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] James Breese: Then I'll go again. Right now. Could 

[00:06:03] Josh Kennedy: be horrendous. But if you're doing it, attempting to do it aerobically, it shouldn't be too bad. Exactly. But if you're doing it like, you know, 90% pace or something, then, then yeah, it'll be horrendous. 

[00:06:11] James Breese: Well, that, and that's exactly right. So we, so let's, let's think, let's break it down to simpler terms.

[00:06:15] James Breese: So I'm doing, I wanna do eight sets, easy aerobic power type work. Where that means I'm doing 8 sets of 400m at exactly the same time. And if I don't hit one of those 8 sets at the same time, my work is done for the day. That's how we approach it. So, let's just say, just for ease of, ease of sake, I'm going to do 400m in 2 minutes.

[00:06:34] James Breese: Extremely slow, but that's the point I'm, I'm trying to emphasize here. If they're 200m, great, look at my heart rate, cool, let's say it's at 155 or whatever it is. I need to wait for it to drop below 120, and then I'm going to go again. Right? And then I'm going to repeat it. And what you'll see is... Is that the time you need to rest in between those sets gets longer and longer and longer and longer.

[00:06:58] James Breese: Because the idea is we're working on aerobic base, [00:07:00] aerobic power and repeatability. So it allows a better athlete and develops what we find a better aerobic system long term. And that's what we're trying to focus on now. Here's a 

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[00:07:44] James Breese: com forward slash website today. 

[00:07:47] Josh Kennedy: Yeah, I was going to say, because if you start using time, if you, if we just set it at, you know, one minute, you do it in two minutes and you rest one minute, or even if you were doing one to one, say, which you could potentially do, you might [00:08:00] find in the... 5th, 6th set that by the time it hits that end of rest period you aren't really fully recovered and then your times start to suffer And then it's like oh, well, you know now my trainer starts to suffer because I've got to end the session for the day Whereas when you do it heart rate based heart rate recovery based you can then you might be able to complete 

[00:08:18] James Breese: the eight sets that day Exactly, and it also takes the focus away from what the purpose of that of that workout is So for example, if you want to be an aerobic workout or an aerobic power workout where it's all about repeatability and sustainability Right?

[00:08:32] James Breese: If we take it to time and their heart rate is now higher and they're working to work harder It becomes an anaerobic effort, which is what we don't want to do in certain times there Obviously anaerobic has its place and we will definitely use it and we'll talk about that in a separate episode But for us heart rate recovery rest periods is the best way to do it Particularly for runners doing running sets.

[00:08:57] James Breese: Now we use it for other things as well. Again, we'll save [00:09:00] that for another episode But it is such a great improvement with our work, and we're seeing great results from our clients in their shorter forms, 2k time trials, for example, with our cricket players, with our 5k athletes, particularly, I think it works really, really well.

[00:09:16] James Breese: So yeah, so just something to think about and think differently about it. I know you're probably thinking, well, if it works for runners, it works for other things. Yes, and we'll talk about this more again later on. But the other question we get asked all the time is, does this work for strength training?

[00:09:30] James Breese: And it's a yes and no answer. And that's, that's a whole topic in itself we'll dive into and say for another 

[00:09:35] Josh Kennedy: time. I was going to say, not, not long enough on this short form podcast to go into on that. Um, but obviously if you do have any questions or feedback, feel free to, uh, to drop us a message, comment on the podcast.

[00:09:46] Josh Kennedy: But that is it for today. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. And if you want to find out more about our system of training, go to strengthmanners. com forward slash system and get our 

[00:09:55] James Breese: free ebook. Is that all? And one more thing today, which I forgot to say is. If you want to learn [00:10:00] more about a system of aerobic development, there's a book.

[00:10:02] James Breese: I wrote a book, if only enough. There is, Maximum 

[00:10:04] Josh Kennedy: Aerobic Power. Where can they get that, James, before we... Strengthmanage. 

[00:10:08] James Breese: com forward slash map. Strengthmanage. com forward slash map. You can get a copy there. I usually have a copy around me, but not today. There you go. 

[00:10:15] Josh Kennedy: Not today. Well, so if you're watching on YouTube, sorry, you can't.

[00:10:18] Josh Kennedy: We're not allowing you to see it. But yeah, Maximum Aerobic Power, uh, you can get that at strengthmanage. com forward slash map. And we will indeed sign off this time.