[00:00:00] James Breese: Strength Matters Media. Video. Print. Podcasts.
[00:00:06] Josh Kennedy: Today's topic is why fit pros need a refund policy. And I have certainly experienced this myself. Um, no doubt you two boys have as well. So my, my, my experience was when I was training someone for the Strong First kettlebell cert. I think he bought a pack of 10 off me or something.
[00:00:24] Josh Kennedy: Used eight sessions and then decided he no longer needed me. Um, and then wanted money for his final two sessions back. Uh, it wasn't a lot of money, but I sort of wasn't prepared to, uh, you know, hand back just over a hundred quid. And I was a bit like, Oh, that's, that's annoying. And I had, I didn't have a refund policy.
[00:00:42] Josh Kennedy: I didn't have a website. I didn't have anything back in the day. Um, James, what's, uh, what's your experience with
[00:00:49] James Breese: this horrendous nightmares? Horrendous nightmares. To put
[00:00:54] Josh Kennedy: it succinctly, horrendous nightmares. I
[00:00:56] James Breese: think that's the best way to do it. Now when we were doing certifications around [00:01:00] the world, we had people asking for refunds.
[00:01:05] James Breese: I'm not joking. They would turn up to courses and events. And they were asking for refunds after the time after the event after the fact, right? And but they're doing it in a way where back then they'll go to their credit card handlers and say it was a fraudulent transaction and I didn't have a signed waiver Saying that they attended the event I didn't have a picture of them at the event or with us to pick up their pictures and stuff there But it wasn't showing that specific date and that time.
[00:01:35] James Breese: So I lost thousands and thousands of dollars. You remember that, Josh? Like, it was horrendous.
[00:01:40] Josh Kennedy: I do, unfortunately, yeah, I remember that. It was sickening.
[00:01:43] James Breese: And it wasn't just one or two people. We had about 20 people do this to us. And it was just, I don't know how, I don't know whether they'd spoken to each other, various different parts of the world, or how it happened, but they'd been to an event, they'd spent three days with us, had a great time, posting on [00:02:00] social, you know, saying all the wonderful things.
[00:02:02] James Breese: And then three to four weeks later, they've gone crap. I'm running out of money. I need the money back. This is a good way to get money back. So let's put it back on here. So that's, that is like worst case scenario and we're talking not just five or ten dollars here. We're talking twenty to thirty thousand dollars worth of refunds we had to give back and it was horrendous chargebacks.
[00:02:22] James Breese: And then even worse, it was the chargebacks from the credit card companies. I had to pay for, I'd pay fifteen percent. On top of it, obviously this
[00:02:28] Josh Kennedy: is all about refund policies. We must have had a refund policy in place at that time already.
[00:02:32] James Breese: We did, but it wasn't bulletproof. And that is one of the things.
[00:02:36] James Breese: So it's understanding what your Bulletproof Refund policy is. Is it clear? Is it understandable? Does it cover the laws of each state around the world? Does it cover the laws of your country? And is it applicable? And you have to have two levels. One is that, is it, is it, does it have a legal jargon? And the other one is, is it simple and easy to learn and understand?
[00:02:55] James Breese: And you've got to make sure you cover, cover both. So that's in terms of strength, manners, types, [00:03:00] things here now. But I've had a similar thing.
[00:03:02] Josh Kennedy: Obviously worldwide. Before we, we'll come back to you in a second. Andrew, what's your experience with, uh, no doubt having to give refunds in the past? Yeah, I've
[00:03:09] Andrew Wallis: got two specific ones that I can think of.
[00:03:12] Andrew Wallis: One was that, similar to you Josh, although someone had signed up, I think, it was around for about a 12 week program. Um, did the first week actually did the first two sessions of the first week and, um, then dropped off, you know, making excuses and then we're pushing then for, for, for me to make, make a refund to them.
[00:03:35] Andrew Wallis: Um, at that time, I didn't have a refund policy in place. Um, so I guess fortunately for me at this stage, I was working with lawyers. So I was able to connect with them and ask one particular lawyer. Yes, it was, they were still, it was, it was quite pricey investment. Um, but they did it at obviously almost mates rates.
[00:03:59] Andrew Wallis: [00:04:00] Um, uh, to, to, to get that ironclad refund policy in place. And then the second one, I was able to back on the or use that to refund policy as a guide. Uh, somebody was, had been signed up for a long term program. But I could tell that she wasn't she wasn't ready. Um, and then she'd been pushed into it by her supportive husband for the right reasons, of course.
[00:04:25] Andrew Wallis: But she wasn't ready and and she was looking for a way out. And I said, Look, I'll give you the refund because I don't want to be forcing you into something that that's not right for you, but you do need to be able to do something. And I think in giving her some elements outside of that, some some online, um references and some meal plans and that.
[00:04:54] Andrew Wallis: It gave her the starting point that she felt comfortable with and she was able then [00:05:00] down the line to come back because of the approach I've taken and she could see my refund policy that was outlined on my website then. So that's two examples that I can think of. Here's
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[00:05:42] James Breese: Don't wonder act now, book your free strategy call at strengthmatters. com forward slash website today. James, do you think
[00:05:49] Josh Kennedy: the, um, fitness industry is people say it as an easy target? Yes. Because it's like, you know, someone signs up for something and then. They don't use [00:06:00] the service, which is entirely down to them.
[00:06:01] Josh Kennedy: And then they think they have the right to ask for a refund. Like it's, it's my fault if I don't use my prime delivery, but I'm not going to ask Amazon for a refund.
[00:06:09] James Breese: And that comes down to fitness professionals not having a professional business as well. I think we are, we are, we are responsible for this as well.
[00:06:19] James Breese: I think in everything that we do. So it's what our actions and the way we govern, the way we manage ourselves. We don't set things right and the right expectations from the start. Therefore, whereas on like Amazon, it's a professional business. You know what you're getting? They're going to know it's that you're not getting a refund on your Amazon Prime.
[00:06:35] James Breese: Tough, tough titties. Like it's, that's like how it goes. But again, Josh, I don't think anyone would
[00:06:41] Josh Kennedy: ask for it, would they? Because they know it'd just be futile.
[00:06:43] James Breese: Exactly. But an easy target. But again, Josh, remember the example of a husband and wife. So the husband started training and started getting results.
[00:06:51] James Breese: And the first part. And now, no, no, I'll caveat this. His wife started training with us, lost an exceptional amount of weight, had a great time, was doing [00:07:00] phenomenal work. Right?
[00:07:01] Josh Kennedy: She was with us for like two... Two
[00:07:02] James Breese: years. Two, three years. And then her husband came and started training with us. First three months, started getting results.
[00:07:09] James Breese: Second three months, because he signed up to work with us for a year, he started doing his own thing. And also he neglected to tell us that he was trying to manage his diabetes and blood conditions on his own without doctors advice. And he did his own workouts, he started doing random stuff in between, he managed to put on weight, and he started to blame us for all the stuff that he did.
[00:07:30] James Breese: And he wanted a refund. He said he wanted a refund for everything he'd done so far. And he didn't take responsibility for it. But thankfully, what did we have? An ironclad refund policy that states quite clearly that if you work with us for twelve, if you um, Because we're doing a... Guaranteed results in 12 months option.
[00:07:50] James Breese: So what we did is like, you train with us for a full 12 months. You have to train with us for a full 12 months. And at the end of 12 months, having done everything we've asked for you and you've not got results. Then [00:08:00] we will happily refund your money. That's what we did here now. But we had an ironclad refund policy on the website.
[00:08:05] James Breese: So he had no leg to stand on. What did he do? He shouted, he screamed from the rooftops. Said he was going to try and speak to lawyers. But he had no leg to stand on. Because we had that here. So in terms of websites, website is your professional domain. If you haven't got a website with a refund policy that clearly states your terms and conditions of doing business.
[00:08:25] James Breese: You're setting yourself up for failure long term and leading into Saskie, one of our superstar clients, who, and this is why the whole purpose of this podcast is coming out right now, is because she had somebody who wanted a refund 12 months after they signed up to work with her. Yeah, I mean, that's
[00:08:43] Josh Kennedy: ridiculous, isn't it?
[00:08:44] James Breese: Crazy. That's ridiculous. Right, and obviously it's super stressful. If you've never had dealt with this before... It's super stressful. It's a lot of money as well. For people with small businesses, to have somebody like say, Yay, I want my money from all the 10 session packs I didn't do with you 12 months.
[00:08:59] James Breese: Even [00:09:00] though it's their responsibility to take, to go forward with it. But the difference was, was that Sasky now had a website that showed her terms and conditions and clearly states that her terms of doing business is this. Therefore, she can shout and scream from the rooftops. But she hasn't got a leg to stand on because we've done everything possible to mitigate those risks and cover her legally Yeah,
[00:09:24] Josh Kennedy: as you say it is very stressful.
[00:09:26] Josh Kennedy: No one, you know, certainly not something you're going to be expecting 12 months later Right before christmas someone's asking for a chunk of money off you as a small business. So how can people mitigate this and make sure that they have a ironclad refund
[00:09:42] James Breese: policy in place? Well, first of all, you need a website and you need terms and conditions of doing business with you on your website.
[00:09:50] James Breese: Secondly, they need to sign, when they sign up for you, ideally sign a waiver, like your Parkview, and also terms of working with and doing business [00:10:00] with you right at the start, so they understand the terms and conditions right at the start. Now, most people skip both of those things. But you need to have at least the website and stuff on.
[00:10:08] James Breese: Never
[00:10:09] Josh Kennedy: skip a par q. You should never be skipping a par q.
[00:10:13] Andrew Wallis: Particularly with the terms and conditions, and that's why I was always making sure that I had both of them back, even back in the day when they were, they were handwritten. Um, there'd be occasions where you'd get the par q sign, but the terms and conditions, the waiver wasn't.
[00:10:28] Andrew Wallis: So I'd say, look, I really need this. Yeah. Yeah,
[00:10:32] Josh Kennedy: yeah. So where, you know, obviously tech, the legal, legal stuff, most people won't understand that unless you are a lawyer as well as a fit pro, where can people, where do people go for that stuff? Is it on the, is it on the worldwide web? You
[00:10:46] James Breese: could argue to do a basic one, you could use chat GBT to help you out.
[00:10:51] James Breese: You could argue, I'm not going to say this because it comes to bite me back on the arse, but you can look at what other peoples have done. and [00:11:00] see how you can adapt it to your own business. However, that doesn't guarantee it's going to cover your business. We, for example, at Strength Matters, paid for legal professional advice because of all the money we lost because we didn't have it to make sure it's done and dusted and covered.
[00:11:15] James Breese: But what if you
[00:11:16] Josh Kennedy: can't afford that?
[00:11:17] James Breese: What's your option? That's what I mean. You're to look at other people's and adapt it to your own.
[00:11:23] Andrew Wallis: That's the thing and potentially go to citizens advice, uh, they might have some, um, contacts which make it more affordable. Um, because I was trying to rack my brains because there's a, there's an online legal website that you can get.
[00:11:41] Andrew Wallis: Contracts done. But as James says, they, that might be relevant to that particular area, not what your particular area. So I would be looking more locally and, um, maybe adapting something initially, but then when you've got some money set aside, as I say, [00:12:00] perhaps citizens advice can point in the right direction, but getting something done makes it more ironclad and protection longer term.
[00:12:08] Josh Kennedy: James, anything you want to add? Thoughts, tips, just make sure you've got a website and make sure you've got some sort of terms and conditions on there. Like
[00:12:16] James Breese: I said, we do help with terms. For anyone who gets a website with us, we do help with terms and conditions. Again, it's important to state that it's a generic one.
[00:12:24] James Breese: It's not guaranteed to support you. Like, it's down to your each and everyone's individual responsibility to make sure that that happens. That's really important to suggest that, but we can help you. With a website, because it's the most important thing. We always have a Terms and Conditions page, Privacy Policy, and Cookies Policy on the website, no matter what.
[00:12:43] James Breese: Because guess what? It also helps boost your rankings. So, having those three, plus About Us, and a Contact Us page, instant rankings hit. There you go, secret bonus tip if you listen to the end. How about that?
[00:12:53] Josh Kennedy: There you go, there you go. Hopefully that was helpful. Do get yourself a refund [00:13:00] policy in place guys, it will save you a lot of hassle in the future.
[00:13:02] Josh Kennedy: That is it for today. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. And if you want to find out what's holding you back from growing your fitness business or get a website, you can get a free website audit from us by going to strengthmatters. com forward slash audit.