No More Sidelines: Women Leading the Church with Tabi Horne

Join hosts Amber and Lisa as they welcome special guest Pastor Tabi Horne for a candid conversation about women in church leadership. In this empowering episode, Pastor Tabi shares her journey from being a pastor's kid who never wanted to enter ministry to planting and leading The Gathering, an urban church in Minneapolis.

Discover how this single female lead pastor navigates challenges unique to her position while celebrating her incredible impact, with over 100 people coming to faith in just two years! Tabi opens up about her family's pastoral legacy, the internal struggles she faces wondering "would this church do better with a male pastor?", and how she's learned to stay focused on her calling despite opposition.

The conversation explores biblical examples of women in leadership throughout church history, the cultural challenges women face in ministry today, and how to walk in confidence when others question your right to lead. Tabi reminds listeners that "you never know who's on the other side of your yes" when responding to God's call.

Whether you're curious about women in ministry, considering leadership yourself, or need encouragement to step into your calling, this episode delivers wisdom, authentic conversation, and practical insights for anyone ready to move off the sidelines and into their purpose.

Episode Highlights:

• Pastor Tabi shares her journey from "I will never be in ministry" to seeing over 100 people come to faith through The Gathering Church
• The unique challenges of being a single female lead pastor and how Tabi navigates them with confidence
• Biblical examples of women in leadership and how Jesus was "the original emancipator of women"
• Tabi's powerful reminder: "You never know who is on the other side of your yes" when responding to God's call

Thank you for taking the time to like, subscribe, share, and comment. Visit leadingladies.life to find out more. Also, follow @leadingladieslife on social. Amber & Lisa are authors of the multi-award-winning book, Leading Ladies: Discover Your God-Grown Strategy for Success, which dives into the power of community and empowering women of faith to rise up and make a difference, using our gifts and faith to shine brightly in the world. Watch the Facebook Live edition on our YouTube Channel @coffeechatladies .

Transcript

. We are live. Ladies. I almost said ladies and gentlemen, but we have a gentleman. My dear big brother Joshua, informed us last week. Men do listen to this.

Joshua, if you're listening. We acknowledge and affirm your existence.

Thank you and welcome to another coffee chat with Amber and Lisa, and we have a special guest who I'm very envious of your. Courageous Bangs, Tabi Horn pastor Tabi Horn. All the way from, are you in Minneapolis? Yeah, I'm Minneapolis. Is it spring there in Minneapolis?

No. Spring in Minneapolis is different than Spring, everywhere else, so yes, it is spring, but it's not warm. Oh there you go. Yeah. What's your temp today? I think we're in the forties today. Okay. There you go. I think we're supposed to get up to 54 but like here in Missouri, when it gets into the fifties, people start wearing shorts.

 That's typical. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Tabi is very well acquainted with as I call it. Are you a chief fan? Tabi? Are you a chief fan? 100%. In fact, I was gonna wear a chief sweatshirt this morning and then I decided I should wear one That's representing my church instead.

Oh yes. I'm a big time Chiefs fan. Yes. you're in the proper denomination. You're in the proper crowd this morning because sometimes it's good. Talk to people who don't get it. Yeah. But you get it. Yeah. It was a beautiful day here in Kansas City. We have sun. That doesn't always happen here.

But we have sun today and it's a little warmer here, Amber. It's like 49, yeah. And my dear assistant, my husband Randy, brought me. A new hot cup of coffee. So we're starting things off. Hey, Randy, in my very faded KC cup. Nice. Nice. Yeah, I've got a KC Cup too. Look at us. Oh my gosh. Oh.

Cheer. Okay. Yes. Okay. I should have brought, look at this. Okay. My cup is way up there. Oh, nice. Wow. if it counts, if it's up there. I think Kansas City is on the Midland side. I have my cups ranged from West Coast to East Coast. That's actually incredible.

I'm really impressed by that. That's incredible. East Coast. I didn't know that. Bit of Amber trivia. That's interesting. We're gonna have to put a system in place. I love it. I love it. I'm really excited to have Tabi with me. I've known Tabi and she probably does not remember this, but I've known her since she was a little girl.

I remember as a brand new Christian, I started attending the church that her parents were youth pastors at. Oh, wow. I was about 17. And I went on, I think it was our second youth trip I went on, which means I was probably about 18 at that time, maybe 19. We went to, I think, Colorado. Were you on the Colorado trip?

Amber? Not Amber. Tabi. Do you remember? I have a memory of Pikes Peak y yeah. And I remember at some point in the trip I was given the honor of sitting next to Tabi. Oh my goodness. And I remember just trying to pull her into conversation. And Tabi.

Tabi was like that pastor. He was like, yeah, I hear another one of those just as Oh no. Tolerated me. I had all brothers, so I probably wasn't doing it right. Yeah. But I was trying to do good by. How old was I? Was I like two? You were very young. I don't remember if it was a Colorado trip for sure.

I just know it was a trip where you were there and I got to sit by you and it was wonderful. Oh, goodness. Isn't that funny? I have a lot of conversations like this, when you've seen these kids grow up and I go through the line at Seven Brew and we used to change your diaper.

And that's probably not the conversation that a lot of these, they probably don't, they don't wanna acknowledge that part of their life. I did not change your diapers Tabi. Hey, it's all good. I'm sorry that I ignored you when you were 18.Tabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi Horn a great kid just having to tolerate all of us.

It was alright. I have known Tabi for a long time. It has been my honor to sit beneath the ministry of both her grandfather, her father and mother, and her uncle. Yeah. Wow. The Westlake family have pastored me for decades of my life. I love that. So I wanna talk about that just a little bit.

You have quite a legacy before you tabby. do you recognize that? Do you ever feel like you have to aspire to be like, or are you driven? What has that experience been like for you? It's a good question. I would say it's a combination.

So my family's incredible and my family has never put expectations on me to be a certain thing, or they've actually, no one's ever said, you need to be like me. So I am grateful for that because they're just great genuine people who aren't perfect, but are faithful. And so I'm really thankful for that.

And they really raised me well in those senses. But having said that, they were my heroes. They still are, right? So I did wanna be like them. I still do wanna be like them. I think in this age of all types of different pastors, but especially in that like celebrity pastor culture I have grown up seeing the complete opposite of that.

I've seen pastors who are authentic shepherds and yeah, I do wanna be like them. They're the gold standard for me. Yeah, I don't feel pressure. And it's interesting because when I considered going into ministry as a teenager, but I didn't really want to. And as I grew and thought, I think I'm gonna end up in ministry, I always thought I don't really want to get into the ministry because of my family.

I don't want them to hook me up or whatever, but I just didn't really know how my life would play out. And then, lo and behold, I'm here in Minnesota and I don't think anyone, very few people even know that I have the legacy I have. I've had the honor of, my dad has preached at my church.

My grandpa has preached at my church. He got to preach last year me, my grandpa and dad got to preach together the Sunday I got ordained with the ag. And so there's been some special things like that where people do know my legacy. But yeah, I do feel like I wanna do things well.

And I think sometimes when I am struggling with a decision, or even just to have the endurance that's required to do what I am doing I think about like, how would my dad handle this? Or how would my grandpa handle this? And, they're all still alive, so I can call 'em and ask, but it's just this little voice in my head of okay.

I know that my mom would reach out to this person and be generous towards them, and so I'm gonna do it, yeah it's always there and it's a good thing, but they never put external pressure on me, which I credit them all for, Do you ever find yourself putting that pressure on you? I know you for sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I do. We all would do that. I have a question about, a lot of traditional pastor's kids, even though their parents may not put pressure on them.

They have a big intense pressure from The congregation to Behave and do what they're supposed to do. And you get a lot ofthe white and black sheep syndrome, The pastor's kids deal withwas that ever a part of the equation for you, or were you the poster child of, this is my proper pk?

I've never been the poster child for anything. That was definitely my brother And again, this didn't come from my parents. My parents actually always fully supported me. They never forced me to be anything. I wasn't so all credit to them.

But yeah, I did, I faced a lot of that pressure in the church. And Lisa already mentioned it when she talked about that little story where I was Stubborn, independent and I don't like being told what to do. I've gotten better at it. But I've always been like that.

And so I did face a lot specifically in my teen years. I lived in Pennsylvania. It was incredible. But I. There were a lot of hard things like that where Yeah, I was kinda the black sheep, not to an extreme but comparatively maybe smokey.

The smokey sheep. Yeah, the smokey sheep. The gray sheep, if you will. And I think, again, it's just 'cause I didn't respond to things or I didn't respond even in church, I didn't respond in the ways that. People thought I should, or other people wanted me to, or I didn't respond like any other person.

And yeah. And again, my parents have had some conversations with people where they're like, you need to let her be her. So I'm so thankful for that. It would've been a lot worse if I would've had parents that wouldn't have seen me for who I was, but they did. But yeah, it was tough. That's a major reason why I didn't wanna be part of anything in ministry.

'cause I didn't wanna. I don't have kids now, so whatever, but I did thought I'd have kids at that time and I was like, I will not put my kids through this. So yeah, I didn't wanna be a part of a leadership in a church. I barely wanted to be part of a church. I for sure didn't wanna take kids or any other family through the experience of ministry.

But wow, again with all of that, there's also a lot of good and a lot of incredible things that I got to experience that I wouldn't have otherwise. I promise you, you weren't stubborn with me. Okay, good. You were, Lisa, I am stubborn, so it's okay if I was but unaffected by me and I didn't have to tell you to do anything.

You were just like, okay. Yeah. Good. There's so many of you and you're all trying to be my friend. I know. The funny thing is like having served with a denomination personally I found that. There was that stubborn urge in me to just wanna, you are not gonna see my potential. You're gonna not gonna see this.

Yeah. I'm gonna kick back at everything you are saying that I can't do. Yeah. Makes you feel. Do is a silent scream apart. Yeah, I think that's true. And when I went to college, I decided I wanted my parents wanted me to go to a Christian college, which is actually why I moved to Minnesota.

And so I went because they wanted me to go. But when I went to this college, I was like. I am gonna pick the major that I think is the furthest from ministry. 'cause I do not wanna be a part of ministry in any capacity. So I picked psychology. And little do I know that in ministry, I use psychology all the time.

But that's another story. So yes, I think so. The silent scream that resonates. Yeah. And sometimes it's the loud scream. Yeah. Sometimes it is. Yep. Yep. You mentioned something just as you were talking and I thought, this makes sense because. Overall, knowing people who have raised you and watching their amazing way that they seem to walk the waters with ministry.

so much admiration for them, but watching them as well. I've always had the impression that in the pulpit they've been boundary pushers a little bit and I don't.Tabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi HornTabi Horn Christianity, one foot out. Boundary pushers in pushing back at what the mindset of the church overall denominationally and otherwise pushing back and making people take another look.

And pushing the boundaries of what we think. Is or ought to be or how it should be. And I hear you talk about how you were gonna be, you and your parents were gonna allow you to be you. And I'm like, yes. That was consistency in what I saw from a pulpit. And what they had in their families, because look at the impression it made upon you and look at where you are now.

You are not the first person in your family who has said, I was bound to determine that I was not going to go into ministry. It's true. That's true. So I look at that and I'm like, Jesus has our number every step of the way. And knows exactly where we're gonna go, how we're gonna learn, how our whole personality is gonna be formed.

With that being said here, you are now a pastor of a church and a new church plant. Basically you've, yeah. This is all very fresh within the past few years. I know when we were writing our book, I desperately. wanted you to contribute because, oh, Lisa, it's okay. I'm not over it. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

It's okay. But I looked at how you were going into this and I was just like, I'm so proud of that. I would love for other people to know about it. Was just a moment of talking about what it has been like to be a female, a single woman. You are not a teenager. You are a woman. You are an adult. You have made the decision to commit yourself to not only pastoring a church but planting a church.

Tell us a little bit, I know we, we only have a moment, but what's that like? Interesting. It's interesting. It's really incredible actually. Tru truthfully, pastoring and planting the gathering, that's my church. Planting the gathering has been the honor of my life. It's been my biggest joy. It's the thing I have probably prayed the most about in a, in ministry, aside from.

Praying for family members for different things. It is the thing that I think has stretched me the most. And it has been the most rewarding. It's the best thing I've ever done. But it's not an easy road. So I planted it two year, two and a half years ago in the urban core of Minneapolis. So we're not downtown, but we're in what's called like a first ring suburb.

It's that slash neighborhood because we're right on the edge of Minneapolis and it's beautiful what God's done and what he's doing. And I've taken a lot of my cues from my family of again, thinking about how they prayed for the church and what they established. And it's been wonderful.

I'm lucky to be part of a denomination that believes in women theologically practically speaking. Minnesota, I've gotten so much support from my denomination when I decided to be a lead pastor the first female lead pastor I ever met was me. And the first female single lead pastor I ever met was me.

And those two things stayed true for too long. And they're no longer true. I have since met a few other female pastors. Minnesota actually has a few female lead pastors. I'm not the only one, and so they're incredible. But I've met one other single lead pastor and It was interesting 'cause I hadn't seen it before. I come from a family that believes in women in ministry. A lot of the women in my family have been licensed, but none of them have been the lead pastor. And so I really didn't have a paradigm for what that looked like. And so it was a lot of learning and taking steps.

But I'm so glad I did. It's been the best thing ever. Have you had pushback? Yeah. Oh yeah. I will say that I'm actually the part of the city I'm in. I think being in an urban context, there is a lot more openness to a matriarchal kind of leadership. And I found that to be true. And I didn't really think about that going into it.

I just wanted to be in the city because that's what my family does. I wanted to plant a church in the city. Here in Minneapolis, there's a lot of churches a lot of them are dying. I think the stat, but this is a pre covid stat. It's probably worse now I would guess, but only 38% of people in Minnesota attend a church of any kind.

Wow. And a lot of that is, older people that are going to liturgical which is, I love liturgical churches, but churches that aren't actually growing or advancing or really even thriving in their community, they're actually kinda on the downswing. So it's a. There's a lot of cultural understanding of Christianity, but there's also a lot of people here that don't.

I have a person in my church right now who like has never heard the story of the feeding of the 5,000. They're like, oh, I didn't know about this. And so I. it's an interesting dynamic, but I knew in the city I would have a little bit more likelihood to be accepted, and I think that's been true.

But I have had that from some people will come to the church and be like, I don't believe in women. I'm like, okay, that's great. You don't have to, but also you probably don't wanna be here. And I get comments on YouTube and things like that. But I don't really care about all of that.

Yeah. As far as. Difficulty or opposition. Actually, I think being single has been the harder part of that. People don't really know how to deal with a single female pastor. And I've had other pastors in my own denomination, in my own district say things to me like, how can you do this without being married?

Just like totally dumbfounded. Not even being mean, just totally yeah. I don't get it. How could you do this all alone? And I'm like I'm not all alone. I've got really great friends, I've got really great family. I've got a community. It's just very bizarre. Yeah. So actually, and then even I think what's hard is I think people don't know how to take me Always.

And, I feel like it's harder to get involved in some things I'd like to be involved in because it's we wanna welcome you, but when I'm there, it's, I'm definitely the different person. It's good and bad, right? Like I've gotten incredible support. Our district leaders are incredible.

There are pastors in our district that are phenomenal and have told me like, Hey, if anyone ever says anything to you about being a woman, come find me. 'cause I'm gonna go find them. They're incredible. But that's not right. Like we, I don't want that. I just wanna be another pa. I wanna be one of the pastors, right?

I'm not trying to be any other thing. But in general. It's not been as difficult as I imagined being a woman, but the single part has been the bigger factor. I think it's amazing, and I've said this before we are not meant to be acceptable to everyone. We're not meant to have the world.

That's true. Come to our church and if they don't like our church, they can walk right out. That is not what we're called to. We're called to minister to the people who get us. As well as, those who are willing to receive from us. 'cause we can't effectively reach those who are not willing to receive what God Is saying through us. That's right. So why try? Why try to be acceptable to everyone? Because only a limited amount of people will fit under our umbrella. And there's many other umbrellas out there. That's just it. And I tell people all the time you don't have to agree with my stance on, 

Secondary or tertiary theological issues. You don't have to agree with me that women should be lead pastors. I have friends that don't. I have a lot of people that I respect that don't. Minneapolis specifically. There's a few prolific pastors here from other denominations that are ardently against women in ministry, so there's a very strong kind of.

There's this battle I actually didn't even know it was a thing until I moved up here for college, and then I'm like, oh, some people think this isn't okay. Okay. But that's exactly it, right? Like it, as long as you're in a church that's preaching the Bible and is, trying to help people meet Jesus and grow deeper in their faith, I.

Great. It doesn't have to be mine. I remember when my mom told me, she's you need to learn how to keep a clean house because your husband is gonna expect that of you, and you're gonna get a divorce if you don't do that. And I said, I don't think I would marry that kind of man. Yeah, that was a philosophy. I get it. I get it. But Tammy, you. They say traditionally, we had talked a little bit earlier about were you ever desiring to have a husband? Is it hard for you? Would you date now as lead pastor? Okay, so I'll answer it in a couple parts.

I did, I always thought I would get married. In fact, my mom got married when she was 19, and I totally thought I would also get married when I was 19 or 20. I expected by 25 that I'd be done bearing children. And so I, my life did not turn out the way I expected, so no, I never expected to be single. and be single and 44.

And I never would've told myself that at 20 because I would've been really depressed. But what I have found is, I didn't wait. To get married, to build my life. And so I started building my life in my twenties. And I have incredible friends that are like family to me. I live away from my family and I love them so dearly, but I don't get to like really see them regularly.

And so I have friends that are my family. I have a very full life. I have some biological nieces and nephews that I love dearly, and I have some nieces and nephews from. Friendships that I love dearly and get to go to the kids' concerts and get to go to the sports games and get to do all of that stuff with I didn't expect it to be this way, but I'm very happy now.

Yes, I would be open to getting married. I. I think it would be really fun. I can totally see the appeal and I'd be open to it, but it is hard as a pastor to figure out how you do that. I'm also, I don't know if I've mentioned this yet, but I'm a bivocational pastor, so I actually have a full-time job and I am.

Working part-time for the churchI have two full-time jobs basically, is what that means. And there's not a lot of space in my life that's not already taken up and when I have space, I'm generally spending it with people that I love, doing things I love. And so I don't have a lot of space truly for dating, but I'd be open to it if I met someone.

But it's difficult, right? Because, do you date someone that comes to your church? I don't, that feels weird to me, but then like, how would it work for me to date someone that's not part of my church? That's also a little bit bizarre. So I don't really have a good paradigm for what that would be.

And honestly just to be really practical who you marry you guys know really matters. And I have seen so much in the last four to five years of pastors, spouses doing weird things. Sinful things that are pushing the edge and the pastor ends up paying for it too and having to give up their church, right?

I've seen this happen many times. I am very aware of that. Like anyone that I bring in, they're not just coming to date me. It would be like, Are you ready to be accountable for what you do? To the degree that it would cause me to lose my church if you messed up, right?

Yeah. That's a real thing. And I think if I get married it will definitely be the Lord because the Lord's gonna have to pretty much directly send him to me. But yeah, I'm open to it. I always thought I would be married and I thought I'd have children. I don't think I'll have children now.

I'm not, having, kids was never like top in my priority list. I actually, for a long time, even in my teens and twenties, didn't want kids. Then I had a season where I wanted kids and I've gone beyond that I'd be open, like my family has adopted. I have two adopted siblings.

My grandparents adopted two daughters when they were teenagers who lost their mom. So I love adoption. So I'm open to something like that, but it's definitely, I would wanna make sure my life could have the capacity to do it well. 'cause if I'm gonna do something like that, I wanna do it well. And right now I don't have the capacity to do much more.

So we talked about this a little Earlier as well. And it's a little topic, I wanna talk about just women in leadership in the church. Yeah. And not just now, but what it was like in early church because We know there are denominations that do not hold that women should be in leadership.

That will allow women to lead not underneath the umbrella of being a pastor. And yet there is evidence that there were women funding the church and leading church houses in their homes in the very beginning stages of Christianity. So with that in mind there's a lot of heaviness for women.

Yes. We've come a long way. You think about women's history just in the last 100 years. And again, the last 50 years. And yes, we've come a long way, but there's still this mindset, like you said, you get the kickback on the YouTube videos and stuff that women do not have. What it takes to be a pastor.

Not only do they not have the right, it's not biblical and yet we see that it's happened. When you see that, and I want you to talk to maybe women who have not yet stepped into leadership. Yeah. What do you say to that and what can you say to encourage them to walk in the fullness of what it means to lead in the church?

Do you need a title to lead? What do you say to help them understand that when these things come against you, that doesn't mean you stop. God still has a purpose for you. Yeah. I think it's a great question and unfortunately it's a conversation that needs to be had, right? I wish it didn't, but it does.

I would say a couple things. Number one, if you're called, whatever you're called to, everyone's called, right? And I have the firm belief that we're all called to ministry. Some of us that's vocational. Some of us that's working in the marketplace, some of us, it's being at home and whatever.

We're all called to ministry, like every follower of Jesus. And I say this to our church a lot when we talk about the Great Commission in Matthew 28, when Jesus says to go's not optional. Like he doesn't give you an option to say go if you're a man or go if you're a well-educated woman. Like he just says, go.

And so I would say this if you're gonna have the resilience to make it in ministry, then you cannot be swayed by external factors. Like you cannot be swayed by people's opinion. You actually have to have a real sense of who God is and who you are. 

Like in the garden, God establishes an order for the way that we do things. And the first thing that he establishes is the imago de like you're made in his image. All of us are made in his image. And then the next thing he establishes Is gender, like you're made in his image. You're a woman, you're a man.

Next thing he establishes is vocation. Like he gives Adam work to do. So it's like you have a job to do. God gives us a job from the very beginning. you do that job as a woman or as a man. And the core thing about all of us is we're made in his image. And so I think we as women have to really understand that you're not made in anyone else's image.

It's in God's. And so he's gifted you and called you. And if you're going to fulfill what he's called you to, if you're gonna move forward, if you're gonna walk into those promises, you do have to be eyes fixed on him. Not on everything around you. 'cause truthfully, if I sat and thought about.

Everybody that is against a woman pastor or even some of the things I've heard people say to me or things I hear people say on social media, like pastors I respect. If I just sat and stewed on that, I would be focused on that and not on the great commission. And the great commission is our call.

And so I think that's the first thing, we've gotta remember that we are all called God established our identity in the garden and it's continued since. And so that's part of it, I think is one. The second thing is I think understanding people don't have to agree with you.

We already hit on that. I am fully aware there are many people who don't think women should be a pastor whatsoever. There are many people who think women can be a pastor but cannot be a lead pastor 'cause she needs to be under male headship. But when I read Colossians one, it tells me that Christ is the head of the church.

So I would say we're all under male headship. And so it's an interesting thing, but I guess my encouragement would be know who you are. Know who God is and just move forward and don't listen to the chatter That's true. No matter what it is. Because we all have something.

Maybe we're insecure, maybe we feel like it's not about being a woman, it's just I don't feel like I've got what it takes to do what I am hoping to do or what God's called me to do. But we can't fixate on that stuff. 'cause if we fixate on that stuff, it becomes about that and it doesn't become about Jesus.

And I also say this a lot to my church, we are not the center of the gospel story. It's Jesus like Jesus is the, he's the main character. You're not the main character. And so if we have this idea that we're the main character, so it's gotta all align to me and everyone's gotta affirm me and it doesn't work.

And you really shouldn't be in ministry 'cause you're in it for maybe not the wrong reason, but you're not gonna make it long term because there's always gonna be someone that opposes you about something. So that would be one thing. And I think, Lisa, you hit it on the head. There's a lot in scripture.

women announced the resurrection. Women were pastors, women were deacons. They carried the word. I think it, I might be speaking outta turn here, but I think it was Junior who carried the book of Romans to. Roman, I might be missing that. I haven't looked at it lately. I did a series on it last summer.

But they were active. And this is, I'm not like a Hebrew scholar. I barely know Hebrew, but I do know this, the word that's used for Eve in Genesis. I believe Genesis two is Zer. It's EZER and that word means helper. And so it's often translated helper, but actually what that word means, it's not helper like servant like, I'm gonna go get you your tea.

It's helper like warrior, like that same word is actually used for God. Later in the Old Testament, right? So we're not calling God our servant or our, our slave our tea getter, coffee getter. We're calling God our warrior, our my, and so there's this really, that word is actually really packed with a lot of implication for Yeah.

Eve is a helper to Adam. Absolutely. She's a partner to Adam. Absolutely. But she's not coming in meekly and oh, I don't, I can't do anything. She's there to war with him. To fight with him to be next to him. And that's the standard that's set in scripture from the beginning. And so it's very bizarre to me when we get away from that standard.

A lot of people don't really haven't looked into it deeply. And one last thing I'll say is I would recommend Dr. Lynn Cohick. She's incredible. If you don't know her I believe she teaches at a couple seminaries, but she's done a lot of work. On women specifically in the New Testament. And it really brought light to, for me to some things like what you've referenced, Lisa, like some of the stuff that you're talking about, I didn't know about.

And I've learned a lot from her. So I would highly recommend she's got a podcast called The Alabaster Jar, I believe. And she's just incredible. So checking her out too. And in reference to that we talked a little bit before we went live just on how, because this has been, such a patriarchal.

Kind of society, especially in the early church, we've come a long way. there are these cigarettes called Mol, never smoked one, but their theme was Long way baby. We really have, in how we are viewed we're not just substandard anymore. Females are looked upon to be able to do things and be in leadership.

But back then. there are even cases where you brought up did you bring up Junior? I think I did. I believe she may be the one. in church we are not really talking about these things. There are women within the early church who we changed their names to.

Male names. She's the one, her name was changed. She just assumed that was a man in school. And then we find out it wasn't. not just within our denomination but thinking about Eastern Orthodoxy with the Orthodox Church. Catholic church. There are women that they place in history.

At the early church and they speak fully their names. Names I had never heard of until I started learning more about women in History of the church. I think I'm gonna have to look up dr. Lynn. because those kinds of things I think build my faith as a woman.

Yeah. It. I am, I have many daughters, the woman of many daughters. That's me. And I have an amazing son but I feel like we do a disservice for those who come after us if we do not. Help them understand. Maybe we haven't always had the full picture, but guess what? Our focus is a little better now.

And we can see a little bit more now. We live in this age where we have information. We gotta make sure it's the right information 'cause there's a lot of wrongs about there. But we have so much more that we can learn about now because we have the internet and ways to learn education without being in the class and things like that.

And so I think it's really important that we let young women know, you know what, we've been here all along. And take encouragement from that. A way to walk in leadership. I think it's interesting in Jesus' interactions that he was, there was the patriarchal.

But he was always challenging the system. With women. He was always pushing the, and it wasn't just, it wasn't, this is established. He was trying to say, yes, this is established, but this is God's view of what should be happening. So I see even Jesus as the greatest countercultural, women in ministry empowerment force that had come to this earth to challenge the system.

Jesus is the original emancipator of women, yeah he's the original woman supporter. He did it everywhere. It is. It's who he was. And what I find interesting is I don't see anywhere in the gospels where Jesus tells someone off because they're not respecting a woman. Like he's not telling the culture they gotta, but what he does is he just intentionally includes them and just like it's supposed to be.

And I think that's the important piece, right? Because one of the things I've never wanted to be as a female. Leader is like the one that's, I'm only about being a female leader. That's all you know about me. I actually want the thing that everybody knows about me to be like, that is someone who is not perfect, but man, she's obsessed with Jesus.

That's what I want people to know about me. I do that as a woman, just like I said in the garden, like we're established as, in his identity as a woman or a man with the work he's given us to do. And so I, I want that to be what's known about me. But having said that, we do need examples.

We do need women to speak up and to share, and I think that. I think that's where I want to be that for people. I remember when I was thinking about planting a church I considered a couple different denominations. And I met with the denominational leaders in Minnesota and I ended up with the denomination I went with.

I met with that leader and he was incredible. And like as soon as I sat down, I knew. That I was gonna move forward with this denomination, but he said to me, we, I think that there's things we can support you in and I think that we can learn from you, as a single female woman. And I said this is the thing.

I'm not trying to change a denomination. I'm trying to change a city. So like I don't really care about that. And I straight up told him that. And then I said, but you know what? I think. Both can happen. Because I think if I would have seen women as. Pastors, I saw a few, but it was always, they did a different kind of role.

But if I would've seen a woman in like a pastor teaching role, I think I would've done this when I was 20. And God's timing is right, I think it's good. I didn't do it at that age, but I would've probably the first time I saw a woman preach a sermon was when I was 17. And I think if I had seen that.

I would've had some different thoughts about my life. In fact, I even remember when I was 40, I was with my dad. I was in Kansas City, I was riding in the car with him and we were talking about pastors and stuff, and I was 40 years old and I said to him, I think if I had seen women pastors, I might have been a pastor.

And he said to me you could still be a pastor. And I said, I don't know. I don't think so. And then, jokes on me. But I think we do need more women to, to talk about we've always. Women have always carried the good news of Jesus. Women have always supported the church, and I find it so incredible that in a time when a woman's testimony was not permissible in court, Jesus had women announce his resurrection.

And women have been announcing the good news of Jesus ever since and even before that, right? We've got Deborah, we've got Miriam, we've got Esther and Ruth. We've got all kinds of examples, but it's just. It's something that I never wanted to be the main thing about me, but we can't, we do ourselves a disservice if we totally exclude it and pretend like it's not a component of who we are. Tabi Horn Horno as you're looking at someone facing this as a vocation choice or just really stepping into what they know God's really called them to do, What's the hardest thing you've had to deal with? Was it actually the church? Was it in your personal life, what is the hardest road you have walked since taking on the mantle?

The church? Yeah. I think the hardest thing is always wondering if the church would be better off if I was male. Ooh. And I think that is and Lisa, you know me, Amber, I don't really know you, but I'm a very confident person. It's like one I don't any personality test I take, like my personality, we're the confident.

We don't, we're confident. But that is a real concern that I have. I have wondered okay, can I appropriately disciple the men in our church? Do they even respect me as a pastor? And I would say. I've had really good experiences. The men in my church are incredible.

They probably wouldn't be a part of my church if they didn't, my church is interesting. We have about half of our people, at least, if not more, that are very new to faith or they have grown up in a certain way, like maybe culturally Christian. Or maybe they were confirmed.

There's a lot of Lutheran is very popular here, so maybe they went through confirmation and were Lutheran, but they didn't really ever Connect to the church. And so we have a lot of people where they're either brand new to faithOr they are making their faith their own for the first time as an adult. I was actually just thinking about it this morning with a certain person in my church, like, how am I gonna disciple this guy? What am I gonna do? And so I have had that fear. I've had the fear of when we have new people come, are they like.

This would be a good church except for that female pastor. So you know, I have those thoughts a lot and I think that's maybe one of the biggest things. 'cause I haven't faced a lot of external opposition. Again, I think it's different when you start the church. There's not a culture established, you established it, right?

I think it'd be harder if I walked into an established church. So that's one piece. The other piece is, like I said, I think in an urban context where there's much more comfort and even ease. With a matriarchal sense of leadership. And so I haven't experienced a lot of external, but that internal dialogue that I have, even as a person who's very confident and as a person who is in ministry because God told me to this wasn't my dream job.

Even as those things are true, I still have those constant questions of man, would the church grow faster if I was a male because guys would dive in or would we have more male leaders or would we have this? And so I think that is probably the biggest thing, honestly. And then I just remind myself like you know what maybe, yeah but God called me and I said yes.

And because I said yes, here I am. And In the little over two years we've been a church, we've seen over a hundred people say yes to Jesus. Oh, wow. And not all of those people stay at my church, so I don't get the opportunity to disciple all of them, some of them do. And my job is to preach the gospel.

And give them an opportunity to say yes. And then from there, if they stick around or if they don't. But if I can influence in any way, get involved in a church, a bible, believing church and grow in your faith and start to discover your purpose. And so I. Yeah, maybe it would be a little bit larger if I was a male, but I'm not, and I was called to do this and God's blessed it, so something has to be okay.

I was just thinking as you said that you were talking about how you said, would this church do better if it was led by a man? And then you follow it by saying, what do I have to offer men? Can I really lead them as a pastor? Can I do this? And I have to stop myself and say, I don't ever think I've heard a man say.

Will what Can women honestly glean anything from what I have to say? It's just a different way that our society has done things for so long. And even that thought for you is part of that still?

Yeah. How can I effectively do this? I really do have great appreciation and admiration for what you're doing. And I just want you to know that I think you're a great communicator. I love to Oh, thank you. Sermons get posted. I just love to listen in and I think you're doing a great job and I'm so thankful you said yes.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I am too. Yeah, I think there's days when I'm like, man, if I didn't have a church, I could go on a trip this weekend or I could do this. But you know what I tell our churches a lot, specifically our leadersThis is no game. This is life and death. And you just never know who is on the other side of your yes.

Wow. And that's why I keep going, right? Yeah. Because there's, I won't say their names, but there's another person that met Jesus in May of 2023. There's another person that met him in August of 2023. There's another one of those people out there. And I just dunno who's on the other side of my Yes.

So until there's no more fruit I'm gonna keep doing it. And God doesn't call us to the mega churches. He calls us to the individuals. He calls us to the one that's right. And there is people who have received Christ that you are the only way they would've been open to the gospel. And I think that's, at the end of the day, we all have to take ownership of that, as you said before, we all have the go.

Yeah. We all have that. And you never know. Who is on the other side of your Yes, and I just love that. I think that needs to be. Up on a billboard somewhere. One of the things I really wanted to mention is one of my friends Julie Zine Coleman has a book called On Purpose Understanding God's Freedom for Women Through Scripture.

It is an amazing book if you have ever had confusion. And it reveals some of these things that you guys have talked about of the women who have been, God has ordained. And really what the Bible says. Yeah. And I think we all need to come to that understanding every day.

Yeah. But thank you Tabi, for being with us. I appreciate All this is such a good helping of goodness and go that we've had this morning. Good. Thank you for having me. We've got two good book endorsements here this morning. Go out and get you some good reading and especially since we are still in the last days of Women's History Month, I want you to take the time to just really think about that, think about the women in your life that have impacted you and, think about how maybe there are more people on the other side of your yes. That you can impact. So yes, Tabi, would you pray for us? Would you pray for our. And just let the Lord lead you in that. Yeah, I'd love to. Thank you Lord. We thank you for this time together and God, I thank you for a community of women who are leading, who are saying yes to you.

Jesus. I know that sometimes for us, our. Our cultural influences play into our readiness to say yes to you. But Lord, I just ask for every woman listening right now and any man that's listening right now. Lord, I just ask that you would remind us that you are the main character and you are the one we follow.

We don't follow culture. We don't even follow theological tradition necessarily, even though that's fine. We follow you. And Lord, I pray that you'd speak to each of us. About how to continue to step forward into who you've called us to be, the fullness of who you've called us to be, because God, I believe that for each of us, you want each of us to impact the world.

Your word says that you're not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. And we need every single follower of Jesus to step in to their calling. And Lord, I just pray that every person that is struggling right now. To know if they are actually called. Lord, I just pray you'd confirm that call every person that is just maybe battling insecurity or feeling like they're not enough or whatever it may be.

Lord, would you just remind us that no, we're not enough, but through you, we have everything we need for life and godliness. Father, I thank you that you have been. Working through men and women throughout the entire history of this planet. Lord, I thank you that your word has gone forth from the mouths of men and women for centuries.

And Father, we ask that would continue. We ask that every single one of us would be the women that you've called us to be, that we would stand up and fight for whatever it is that you've put in our way. Lord, I thank you that there are conversations like this happening. I pray a blessing over Lisa and Amber and this whole podcast.

Lord, I just ask that this would be used to encourage your daughters and your sons, but mostly your daughters to, to step in to who you've called them to be and to step forward into the thing that you've called them to do. God, I thank you that you are always with us, that you always go before us, and that you are worthy of our trust and full OB obedience.

We love you Jesus. We thank you. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. That was wonderful and I'm so glad that we did that and I think we should have these conversations more often. We'll have to have Tabi. I agree. Yes. Anytime. Thank you guys for having me. This was so fun. Oh, thank you Tabi for being with us and I just as a closing for our podcast, I just want to remind you guys, we would love for this podcast to go further and to inspire and encourage I.

Your, you, your friends. So please get on our podcast channel. We're all over the place. We're on YouTube. We're on all of the podcast platforms. We'd like you to like, care and subscribe. And we will see you in a April. Oh my gosh. Buy those taxes, people.Tabi Horn ing up.

That's right. Okay. You guys have a wonderful weekend. Continue to enjoy your Saturday and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.Tabi Horn I think it's still looking live online, but okay. It's off here, so yes, it's ended. Perfect. Yay. Alright. Thank you so much, Tabi. Thank you, Tabi. Oh, you guys, thank you for having me. This was so fun. My very first podcast. Oh really? Oh my gosh. Yeah. I actually, I just started one, but it's mostly for a church where I'm like just going a little bit deeper in the sermon, but for a real podcast.

This is my first one, so thank you. For having me. So fun I am very honored that you've called us a real podcast. You are a real podcast. You are real. I'll say I've never been on a podcast with another person. My podcast is just me going deeper into some thoughts on this sermon.

So it's not like this, I feel like we are not the most conventional podcast, but we do have fun and we've had some conversations that. I just feel like every time somebody challenges us to neaten up a little bit, then we have these conversations with women. Yeah. That you wouldn't have had if you just would've done that and so it's awesome. I love it. We're just gonna keep pushing and I know it could get a whole lot more. Yeah, as far as just like what we talk about and how we talk about it but so far I don't feel like we've crossed any lines. Do you feel like No. Honestly, they say blasphemy. Shut them down.

Know. I think the thing about it is I can't believe we're 60 episodes into the podcast. That's incredible. You guys. I also, I didn't know you were on YouTube. I'm totally gonna subscribe to you. I'm a big time YouTuber. Oh, okay. Not going on YouTube, like watching YouTube. Yeah, I'm really dorky, so that's the kind of stuff I watch do.

Yeah, I like that. I like that. You guys take care. I'm on my way to KC tonightto go to a Coming to God city. Yeah. Yeah. Close to the Chiefs. I'm actually wearing my Mahomes jersey. Nice. And I'm wearing, because I consider that like KC formal, like I can.