46. Unveiling the Depths of Psychedelic Therapy and Feminine Healing with Annalise Oatman

Embark on a profound exploration of the human psyche with our renowned guest Annalise Oatman, whose work intertwines the realms of philosophy, spirituality, and mental health into a tapestry of healing. Best-selling author, poet, and licensed psychotherapist, Annalise brings her full self to the conversation, shedding light on her transformative practice at Deeper Well Therapy. Here, women and feminine-identified individuals discover a sanctuary for overcoming sexual and creative traumas through the innovative use of psychedelic therapy. With Annalise's guidance, we unravel the complexities of maintaining authenticity in a world where the mental health profession is contorted by the pressures of social media and the burgeoning coaching industry.

As we traverse the sacred grounds of psychedelic therapy, Annalise unveils its connection to feminine eroticism and the contrast it holds to conventional talk therapies. With a reverence for the sanctity of the therapist-client relationship, she leads us through an understanding of how this modern practice is deeply rooted in ancient indigenous medicine traditions. Our conversation with Annalise is not just a discussion, but a journey into the heart of what it means to connect with one's deepest truths, and how this connection can redefine healing and self-expression for those brave enough to embark on this path.

Connect with Annalise Oatman:
https://www.annaliseoatman.com/
https://deeperwelltherapy.com

Transcript

Marta Hamilton: 0:05

Hi, lovely listeners, welcome to another episode of The TeleWellness Hub Podcast. I am Marta Hamilton, your host, and today we get to dive into a conversation with Annalise ,Oatman who is the best-selling author and poet, an international TEDx speaker on the topics of erotic, dance and poetry, and is a licensed psychotherapist in private practice called Deeper Well Therapy, and she focuses on psychedelic therapy for women and feminine identified beings who want to overcome sexual trauma and creative trauma and flourish creatively and erotically. She has an experientially studied shamanism and indigenous plant medicine ceremony in Peru and considers these experiences and initiations to be her greatest foundation as a psychedelic medicine worker. Welcome, annalise, thank you so much for joining us. This, this I was going to say this morning. It's morning for us when we're recording. Thank you so much for joining. Thank you for having me.

Annalise Oatman: 1:06

It's wonderful to be here, so it's sort of weird to hear the intro. It's like I can't believe that's that's me.

Marta Hamilton: 1:13

I know it is kind of a trippy conversation, just to hear your background like that. I know I was so excited to talk to you and to hit record. Before we hit record I just dived in into a private conversation with her. I was just excited I had, I had seen some of your work and was so intrigued because I think you know we talked a little bit about sometimes as as clinicians, we we have a certain image, I think that gets portrayed in general audience about what therapy is supposed to look like, what clinical work is supposed to look like, and I love that. You are expressing creativity and freedom in the healing work that you're doing. So my first question for you is why do you do the long list work that you do?

Annalise Oatman: 2:03

Oh, my goodness. Okay, I'm trying to think should I give the short answer or the long answer? I think. I think there are mysterious forces that guide and pull all of our lives forward, and there's a way that it can kind of only be understood backwards. I'm already diving in deep with the mystery stuff, but okay, I studied philosophy for undergrad in. Ireland there for years and at that point it's kind of like can I say bad words on your part?

Marta Hamilton: 2:46

Oh yeah, I'll just give her a little E for this episode. It's all good.

Annalise Oatman: 2:51

It's like what the fuck do you do with a degree in philosophy, which is what I had, and my dad was a classic baby boomer flower child and I actually went back and stayed with my parents for a while after college because I was so lost and confused about my life and what to do and started pulling down old books from his bookshelf from the 60s and 70s. There was a lot of Alan Watts and Suzuki Roshi and people coming from that, I guess you could say the Eastern mystical paradigm, and there's even some Caroline Mace and some classic spiritual authors. And I really dove deep into that and I started to notice this thread that it seemed like all of these teachers were kind of saying the same thing in different ways. They were saying that the deepest, truest expression of spirituality is service, that that should be the heart and soul of your spirituality. Everything else is icing and the true way to know that someone is a very sincere practitioner of any one of the spiritual traditions is that they have a heart of service and they want to serve yeah, I love that, yeah and alleviate suffering.

Annalise Oatman: 4:33

So at the time I thought, okay, I either want to live somehow the life of an artist or a pure life of service, and I thought at the time that that was a big dichotomy, that the two couldn't be brought together, that I had to choose between a very sacred life of service on the one hand, or living my fully expressed, artist, wild self on the other hand.

Annalise Oatman: 5:06

And some of that was probably influenced by my Catholic upbringing, you know, where the feminine is always split between virgin and horror. Right, but the feminine has range. There's so much that we are here to express. So anyway, long story short, I ended up deciding that the delivery system through which my heart wanted to serve was through mental health and eventually becoming a therapist in private practice. So I set off on the path to do that. And here I am. And along the way I've always been asking myself how do I show up in this work in a way that doesn't feel like I'm wearing a mask or wearing a suit that isn't comfortable to my natural form? How can I do this in a way where I get to live that full expression that I'm helping clients live? And it's tough, because I realize I'm already going way down a rabbit hole with my no, it's okay.

Marta Hamilton: 6:32

Everything you're saying is speaking to me on so many levels. You might see me write some notes, but yeah, it's hard to to not play a role right In life. You know, not play a role but to allow yourself to live authentically as a clinician and you come across this in a lot of across a lot of people who say I have it's one or the other how do I? You know I have these roles, these obligations, these responsibilities, and I have to just put this person I wanna be, my authentic self or the person I desire or dream of expressing. I have to just kind of shove it down, put in a box for some time. So I think it's amazing to be so vulnerable, just to share from your own experience, you know, showing up for clients so that you can allow them to show up for themselves too.

Annalise Oatman: 7:25

Yes, that was an impressive, I mean I oh, there's so many things I could say about this, but I think that our profession is starting to be influenced in some ways by the coaching and mentorship world, where everyone is on social media or, for the most part, if you want to have your name out there and be attracting good fit clients, at a certain point, you kind of do have to be out there on social media at least a little bit, and so everyone is putting their stuff out there, and people who are in the coaching and mentorship world in a lot of ways have more freedom to kind of say whatever they want to say, to post nude photos of themselves. I've seen that, you know, and and there's a part of the fully wild artist, part of myself is like I want to do that. That's what I'm here to do too, but then I have to think okay, I'm also doing really, really deep trauma work and some of my clients have sexual trauma, and there are aspects of that classical training as a clinician that I do still hold, but that in and of itself is an art form. Yeah, oh yeah, you know, it's almost like.

Annalise Oatman: 8:50

I think we go through stages of development as clinicians where it's almost like being in art school, where you have to learn how to do life drawing and render things really beautifully and perfectly and get that kind of Apollonian part of your skill set down. And then, once you've mastered that, now you can do abstract painting. You have that foundation that you can allow more of the Dainese and wild element. But you have to master the basics on the foundation first, and I think sometimes in early stages of clinical clinician development you see people being very, very strict and gung-ho about no, you cannot express that opinion online and once you've been in the work for you know, nearing 10 years or more suddenly go.

Annalise Oatman: 9:48

Okay, I've been in this work for a while and I really trust my gut now about the art form of being a human, a real full human, who is also holding this sacred work with a lot of reverence. And I don't think I'm perfect at it all the time. I think it's messy. Sometimes I'll post something and then I'll think, okay, I need to reel that back. I'm having a weird regret feeling.

Marta Hamilton: 10:24

I need to go back.

Annalise Oatman: 10:30

But anyway, I'm getting lost in the paint again I'm.

Marta Hamilton: 10:34

No, I love that because you know you bring up so many things I wanna dive deeper into. Because you bring up the sacred. Talk to me about how studying sacred traditions and kind of intersect with therapy work and your poetry and the art that you do. I mean, I'm sure there's an intersection there, so I'm just curious about that.

Annalise Oatman: 11:03

Yeah, the sacred. What is the sacred? Sometimes it's hard to define, but if I have to come up with a definition now, I would say Anything that exudes an aura of the sacred is something that is coming across somehow as an intersection between the temporal realm and the realm of the eternal. So if you see a beautiful painting of the Virgin Mary or something a part of you recognizes this is a temporal object. It didn't always look like this. At some point something else might happen to it. It exists in time, but something is coming through, this object that my soul recognizes, or that mysterious part of me recognizes as existing outside of the realm of time, of history, as coming from the eternal realm, and you might call that the archetypes or whatever. But I think we have all had that experience of something emanating that aura of something coming from another realm, the realm of eternity, the realm of the city. And so how does the sacred connect to this work? I think there are the well, oh my goodness, there's so many different ways.

Annalise Oatman: 12:46

I could go with this, but it seems to me when two people come together with the intention of assisting, you know, the participant or the client with coming closer to who they really are, and a deep connection with their own heart and others and with Earth, and expressing more of their truth and their heart in the world. That is already, whether you're consciously aware of it or saying it out loud or not. That is already a sacred context. And it says, though both people recognize that at an unconscious level, and so now you have, you know, the conscious self of the clinician, the conscious self of the client, and then you have both of their unconsciouses that are totally recognizing the sacred context, and then you have the relational field that's created between you know, the unconscious of both people, and that field starts to almost become its own entity with its own agenda that can be trusted.

Annalise Oatman: 14:05

It's the relationship itself, and there is something sacred about that. There's something sacred about being trusted with someone's deepest pain, with their deepest vulnerability, and I don't know it's just my heart says, if I don't approach that with reverence, there's something wrong with me. And how that connects to poetry and creativity. I think when we have an urge to create and express, it's coming from that eternal part of ourselves, whatever that is that wants to express in the language of the heart and get out of you know, the busy mind and the protocol and go way down to that, to that level of our being. That is beyond all of that. So I think that's my, that's the short answer.

Marta Hamilton: 15:13

Oh, that's incredible because I'm picturing and imagining what therapy with you might look like, just hearing your response, just with reverence and connection and describing the relational field. How is psychedelic therapy working with women and especially those who have experienced trauma in the past? How is psychedelic therapy different than traditional therapy For those who have never experienced or looked into that? Well, there's listeners who are curious about it. How's it different or what stands out? Just to kind of share, Like even I love that you describe the definition of sacred right, Just saying just curious what it would look like, just to give paint, a picture for people.

Annalise Oatman: 16:02

Yeah, I mean I feel I should say in full transparency, my offering of psychedelic medicines to my clients is a newer offering, so I'm really just starting to step into these waters. But it feels like I've been. It feels like one of those faded things where now all of so many elements of my past are coming together in a way where everything kind of makes sense now, where I kind of see various aspects of my professional development story and I see, oh my God, okay, I see how that was preparing me for providing psychedelic medicine to people.

Marta Hamilton: 16:49

Okay, how does it differ, like psychedelic therapy or your work with specifically looking at maybe feminine and neurotic themes for women with trauma? How is that different? So maybe not even just the psychedelic portion, but just your work, like really diving into, tapping into, looking at, I guess, that deconstruction maybe of what we've had about femininity, like you're talking about religious sex, like Catholicism I grew up in Catholic school my whole life, so I heard what you were saying, you know so just looking at that. But how does it look like for someone compared to traditional talk therapy, someone who is really diving into looking at femininity, eroticism and maybe even just psychedelic therapy? How does that look different than traditional talk therapy, kind of like cognitive therapy for all therapy or motivational interviewing techniques or oh my God, yeah okay, there's so many different layers.

Marta Hamilton: 17:57

I figured I know that's a big question.

Annalise Oatman: 18:03

Okay, where will I start? Will I start with the differences between feminine erotic approaches and CBT or talk therapy? Or I just jotted down some notes so I don't lose my trail again. I do the same thing.

Marta Hamilton: 18:19

I do the same thing because I think there's just so much to talk about, which I always I love connecting with colleagues for those listening. I mean, this is just an incredible opportunity for me. So I feel like this conversation could probably continue in like A in stages and continue on and on, but yeah, whatever you're willing to share or can share, I mean it's all. So for someone like me who is not a clinician in those fields in that realm, I'm fascinated, so anything you're willing to share is great.

Annalise Oatman: 18:52

Yes, okay, so maybe the first place I'll start and then I'll get more into a feminine erotic approach. The first place I'll start is that the fascinating thing people seem to forget or not think about the psychotherapy profession is that it's not a very old profession. It hasn't been around for too long. It's only about maybe a century old, right. But then if you look at psychedelic medicine systems, I think it's really important to acknowledge and to know and be aware that these systems have been around for thousands of years. Indigenous medicine systems, beautiful traditions of sacred medicine have been practiced for thousands of years. And so I ended up kind of stumbling into that world experientially in 2022, in 2022, not knowing yet that I was going to then do a year-long training program at Integrative Psychiatry Institute in Psycho-Elic Assisted Therapy.

Annalise Oatman: 20:15

But looking at the foundations of the professions, I often think to myself okay, psychotherapy is almost like. Sometimes it almost seems like a weird secular priesthood to me. I was like what are we doing? What archetypal tradition are we carrying forward here? And sometimes it feels like an extension of the oracular traditions to me. But it's very much based in the Western materialist, dualist all those words the paradigm where things need to be rooted in science and empirical evidence. So it's kind of like a weird cousin of Western medicine in that way.

Marta Hamilton: 21:05

That's a good way to describe it, yeah.

Annalise Oatman: 21:08

Yeah, but it's rooted in these deeper human needs that are much more ancient than the profession of psychotherapy or psychology itself as we know it. And so I think it's really important for current practitioners of psychedelic assisted therapy to acknowledge the true roots of psychedelic medicine in various ways to actually go and consult with community leaders, medicine people, scholars of indigenous communities who know about these medicine systems and how can we practice this in a way that is effective and, yes, sacred, but also not culturally appropriating, that is respectful, and continue to consult and continue to practice reciprocity on multiple levels for that learning and that consultation. So it's interesting to me that so much language is used around psychedelic frontiers and pioneering. It's like wait, this isn't really a frontier. People have been doing this for a long time. So let's talk to the people who've been doing it for a long time and bring their voices in and their perspectives in. And then there's the feminine erotic piece.

Marta Hamilton: 22:50

I mean, I'll pause there because there are two big pieces to this, but in case you have any reflections about that, but no well, I love that you mentioned the systems that have been around for thousands of years and just recognizing that, because you're right, you do hear a lot about innovation pioneering Like this is new, you know, yeah, but are you right? It's their systems and they've been around for thousands of years and also bringing the reciprocity that is huge. I don't think that's talked a little about offense, something to definitely be considerate of and aware of when looking at that. I love that, yes.

Annalise Oatman: 23:39

Absolutely. Yeah, it's really important, especially because this is a whole other huge topic that we could get into. But but the Western paradigm, if you will, is coming from a whole other epistemology and approach to an understanding of being and what it means to know something. And so appropriating psychedelic medicine and putting it into that paradigm, which is very much you know, based on looking at material outside of yourself, how can I engineer this? What can I do with this? What can it do for me is, I think, poses a very real threat that the psychedelic space could be desold.

Marta Hamilton: 24:38

No, that makes perfect sense because it kind of goes back to what we talked about in the beginning about service and you know, because it's that opposite what you talked about, how does this serve me if I reconstruct this and and make this about me and what I offer and to take away the soul of the origins of this? Absolutely?

Annalise Oatman: 25:00

Yeah, yeah, and I think there's so much buzz around it right now, I really sense that, that danger that so many different people and forces are going to jump on it because it's trendy and turn it into a profit oriented, ego oriented endeavor. And and I'm not immune to the lures of ego inflation around this work do you know what I mean? And I I've noticed that in myself and I've kind of gone. Okay, I need to notice when my ego is starting to feel inflated around this, because it is really cool that I I think it's awesome that that we're able to help people in such a powerful way, but then I have these moments of, oh, my god, you need to have reverence for what you are holding, because these medicines are powerful. And just imagine if someone was approaching you with this powerful medicine in their hand coming from a place of ego inflation rather than from a play, because everything is amplified in the psychedelic space. Everything in the relational field is bigger. You're so sensitive and so there's almost a I might. Just my soul knows that there's a terrible danger in bringing this medicine to people from a place of a ego inflation or anything other than let me help people suffer less and focus on that part of service as the. You know the, the leader in my internal system, and then I don't know how much more time we have, but the, the feminine erotic peace, oh my god. So the differences between a cognitive behavioral or a talk therapy approach and a feminine erotic approach. I could say so much about this, but I mean, if you think about what cognitive behavioral therapy is, it's very disembodied, it's all up here. It's let's work with the cognitions, let's find out which cognitions are faulty. And now the onus is on you as the client to keep changing your thoughts and not take into account any of the broader systems that might be playing into your overall sense of meaninglessness and depression and disenfranchisement. It's on you. It's on you to just change your thoughts.

Annalise Oatman: 28:00

I don't want a bad mouth CBT. I think it can be a very helpful and powerful approach. I think it's a great foundation for clinicians and sometimes it's exactly what someone is looking for. And so I'm glad that that very crisp, just CBT approach is available to people, because sometimes that will be the thing that helps them and it might be the only thing they're open to at that point. They might not want to do a deep dive into their body and their heart they might just want. I'm having panic attacks. How do I stop this thought loop that keeps pushing me into a panic attack? Okay, so that person has been helped by CBT.

Annalise Oatman: 28:45

But having said that, I am so much more interested in approaches that go below that mind chatter surface, into the heart and into the body, into the wordless world of the body and the heart, because that's where, you know, in a lot of ways you could say, the body is the unconscious, it is the soul, as the mystic poet William Blake referred to it. So that's where the juice is. You know, even just doing a gentle, somatic inquiry approach of oh my God, I'm having this sensation right here now. Okay, let's deepen into that and broaden that out. What is that like for you? That is, it seems to me that whatever the body is offering moment by moment is exactly what the unconscious knows you're ready for now. So it's kind of taking the, the Royal Road into the deeper work, kind of like dreams. I mean, jung said dreams are the Royal Road to the unconscious.

Annalise Oatman: 30:00

But yeah, the unconscious speaks through emotion, body sensation, images. So if we can get into that layer of the person and work with that layer, that powerful layer, that's where real change and transformation happens, beyond the surface level and and. And it can't help but be erotic at a certain point, because when you go into the body I mean again the feminine has such range. We experience grief, rage, like the rage of, you know, a mother whose babies are threatened, fear, all of this, and our deep, tender, loving, sacred hearts and our, our sensuality and our sexuality, it all opens up once we get past the surface, you know, below the ego, into the body, into the heart and soul. It's just, it's all there. It can't help but open up. It's a part of our, our essence, and it it doesn't necessarily need to be sexual, it can be. But the erotic is, it's kind of that deep sense of longing for life and reaching out to life, to everything outside of our self, and that is. That's healthy. When you find that in your essence and you reclaim that.

Marta Hamilton: 31:48

So that was beautiful. I could definitely hear the like the poet in you. That was just such a beautiful way. I love the description of the range of the feminine. I love that and I would love to talk to you more and I know that listeners probably want to dive into all that you offer because I know that you they can read your work. You have a podcast coming out soon. How can people connect with you?

Annalise Oatman: 32:15

Oh, people can connect with me. Yeah, my podcast is coming out soon and I've changed the title so many times. I want to send a bouquet of roses to my editor. I just had her redo the intro six or seven times and now the working title is Femthiogenic and so that can be found in Apple podcasts Deeperwelltherapycom. I also have a writing and mentorship website. That's on EliseOatmancom. My most recent book, poetry chat book, is called Holy Blue. You can check that out. My first full length book was Heal your Witch Wound. That came out a couple years ago a few years ago now, my gosh. You can check out my TEDx talk on erotic dance. Just Google TEDx, annalise erotic dance. That should come up.

Marta Hamilton: 33:24

So yeah, lots of ways. Yes, I love that, annalise. Thank you so much for coming on and talking with us and for being a part of our wellness journey.

Annalise Oatman: 33:37

Thank you so much, Marta. It's been a pleasure. I'd love to stay connected Absolutely.

Marta Hamilton: 33:43

Thank you so much. Bye愛愛愛.