For Those on the Long Journey: A Recovery Story for ED Awareness Week

What if recovery didn’t have to be perfect to be real? We’re joined by author Johanna Scoglio, whose new memoir, When the Water Still Holds Me: Letters Through the Tides of a Long-Term Eating Disorder, opens a candid window into life with a long-term eating disorder and the everyday courage it takes to heal. Johanna shares how shame kept her silent for years, how harm reduction and values-based choices gave her traction, and why support that sits beside you beats pressure that pushes. The story of Friday pizza nights leading to pizza in Italy reveals a practical, compassionate path: small exposures, steady presence, and a focus on what matters most.We dig into the myths that stall progress, like the idea that recovery must be symptom-free to count, and talk about creating definitions that fit real lives. Johanna speaks directly to loved ones about grieving the recovery story they imagined, then walking alongside with patience and flexibility. She also offers a thoughtful guide for teachers and coaches whose words shape how young people see food, bodies, and effort. From ditching “healthy vs unhealthy” lessons to normalizing rest and fueling, her advice shows how small shifts in language and modeling can change trajectories.For clinicians, Johanna highlights collaboration, autonomy, and the power of slowing down with clients on long journeys. She reflects on the unconditional hope that kept her moving and introduces A Dragonfly’s Dream, her peer-led nonprofit for adults navigating recurring or long-term eating disorders. The dragonfly, born in the dark, transformed in light, honors her grandmother and the quiet resilience many carry. If you’ve ever felt “too late” to heal, this conversation offers a different compass: define your why, take kinder steps, and let community hold you steady. Liked what you heard? Subscribe, share with a friend who needs hope today, and leave a review to help others find the show.

Show notes:

Trigger warning: this show is not medical, nutrition, or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with a Registered Dietitian, Licensed Mental Health Provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider, as well as crisis resources, in the show notes. Listener discretion is advised.

Resource links:

ANAD: https://anad.org/

NEDA: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/

NAMI: https://nami.org/home

Action Alliance: https://theactionalliance.org/

NIH: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/

How to find a provider: 

https://map.nationaleatingdisorders.org/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us

https://www.healthprofs.com/us/nutritionists-dietitians?tr=Hdr_Brand

Suicide & crisis awareness hotline: call 988 (available 24/7)

Eating Disorder hotline: call or text 800-931-2237 (Phone line is available Monday-Thursday 11 am-9 pm ET and Friday 11 am-5 pm ET; text line is available Monday-Thursday 3-6 pm ET and Friday 1-5 pm ET)

If you are experiencing a psychiatric or medical emergency, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.

Transcript

Opening & Trigger Warning

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Join us as we redefine, reclaim, and restore the true meaning of health.

Sponsor & Resources

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Let's dive into the tough conversations about mental health, nutrition, eating disorders, diet culture, and body image. This is Nourish and Empower. This episode is brought to you by Hilltop Behavioral Health, specializing in eating disorder treatment.

Guest Introduction & Memoir Overview

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Hilltop offers integrated therapy and nutrition care in one compassionate setting.com because healing happens here. Hi, everybody. Welcome to this week's episode of the Nourish and Empower Podcast. We have a special guest with us today, Johanna Scolio. She is publishing a memoir that actually comes out today, the first day of eating disorders awareness week. It's entitled When the Water Still Holds Me: Letters Through the Tides of a Long-Term Eating Disorder. It is a lyrical personal memoir about living with a long-term eating disorder and finding a gentler path to healing, written as a series of letters to people, parts of herself, and systems that shaped her life. It explores grief, harm reduction, recovery, and the quiet resilience of choosing compassion over perfection. She is also in the process of launching a nonprofit, a dragonfly's dream for individuals with long-term or recurring eating disorders focused on a harm reduction, mind-body-spirit approach. Trigger warning: we will be discussing eating disorders, body image, and mental health. Listener discretion is advised. This show is not medical, nutrition, or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with a registered dietitian, licensed mental health provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider as well as crisis resources in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

I got emotional with your bio, so I'm really excited to see how I do during today's episode. But thank you so, so much for being here. It's always like, I feel like it's always an honor to have someone who's so that is so willing to be so vulnerable and like share their story with recovery. So we really do just thank you from like the bottom of our hearts for not only writing your book, but for it being able to, you know, come on our podcast and share it again.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Well, I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Yeah. We always say Jess and I are like the definition of opposites attract, and she is the more emotional, like out of the two of us. But your memoir got me when I was reading it the other night, and I am not the most emotional person with like things that I read or watch, but I yeah, I just thought it was so, so beautifully written and could tell that you put so much time and care into it. So just so grateful for the eating disorder community that this is coming out and people will be able to have access to it.

unknown 3:05

Yeah.

Why Share The Story Now

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Thank you for sharing that feedback. It definitely was a project from the heart. A lot of time and energy went into it, but I'm so excited for it to launch and release and for hopefully, you know, individuals to maybe hear parts of their own story in it, you know, those that are on the long journey, and then just for others to maybe just get a little bit of a glimpse into an illness and struggle that is often misunderstood.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

So misunderstood. And I like to, you know, with your whole book, how you have the pieces after each chapter for like reflection. Because I feel like you're all of your chapters are very, very heartfelt. So to be able to have something that's not clinical or like textbook and it's right, because if clients have something that's textbook, it's like, sure, let me do a reflection. But I feel like you give such specific and I mean it is real life, but like things I think clients can actually connect to. So the fact that they then have that reflection piece after each chapter, to me, I think will actually be helpful for people more so than like a workbook.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah, and that was really my intention. Is within each chapter, I feel like there's themes that can resonate with those that whether you're on the long journey or you support someone who does, or you just struggle with your own inner tides of life. That I really wanted something that people could carry forward with them. And whether that's, you know, right when they read it, they reflect upon it and sit down and jot some things down or just think about it, or it's something that's always there that they can come back to.

unknown 4:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah. And vulnerability was such a a big theme throughout the memoir. And obviously, it's incredibly vulnerable to share your story. So, how did you reach the point where you felt ready to share your story so openly?

Rethinking Recovery & Harm Reduction

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah, thanks for asking that. It was definitely a slow progression. If you had asked me 25 years ago if I would one day write a book and pour everything into it, I would without hesitation have said no. I left, I lived a lot of those early years in denial and then decades in shame. And both of those kept me quite trapped on that silence, you know, they say eating disorders thrive in isolation, and that was the truth. And, you know, I got bogged down by the shame and the shame of struggling and struggling for so long. And it wasn't necessarily one thing that, you know, made me think, oh, I'm gonna write write this memoir and put it out into the world and be vulnerable. I think a few years ago, when I started to shift my perspective on what recovery means to me, what healing means to me, and it not fitting kind of some of the traditional definitions, recognizing the nuance and complexity and personalization of what the meaning of recovery is. I had left the classroom and I had decided to pursue a master's in clinical mental health counseling. And at that time, I was in a course called Addictions Counseling, and we were talking one week about substance use and harm reduction. And I was also trying to find my internship and came across a local program that's very much peer support focused, again in the substance use, you know, arena of mental health. And I realized, you know, both of those things. I thought, why are these not more prevalent in eating disorder care? And something just sparked in me. My husband came home from work that afternoon. This was just about a year ago, and I said, I'm pausing grad school. I may go back to it, I may not, but I'm going to write a book and I'm going to launch a nonprofit, and I'm going to do both for Eating Disorder Awareness Week next year. And I just kind of hit the ground running. And, you know, I think being on the long journey, crossing paths with so many individuals, I think there's not really a voice for those on the long journey. And I really wanted to, you know, share my story in the hope that others don't feel so isolated and aren't full of that shame. And so the vulnerability came through the writing in a lot of ways. I had an amazing editor who continually encouraged me to dive deeper here. You know, what was happening in your body? What were your emotions? And so I credit her to really making this memoir what it was. She really challenged me to, you know, unlock things that had been hidden for a long time or things that, you know, I wasn't thinking that I was going to share. And yet there was a lot of power and a lot of healing for myself in writing this.

Defining Healing On Your Own Terms

SPEAKER_02 7:33

It sounds very therapeutic within it. And I like give credit, just like you said to your editor, because she sounded like she would like to take the seat of a therapist for a hot second, of like go deeper and like asking these questions. So kudos to her. But for you, you know, what made so a multi-part question that I'm going to try to stay streamlined with because I have issues with that. But so, like, I'm just curious for you. What made you find your definition of recovery, right? Because Maggie and I always find as clinicians that like parents and support systems always have these like specific expectations of recovery and like what it should look like. And you know, at one point in your memoir, you said, I am learning to let go of the shame around needing like a meal plan. So, like, secondary to that of like your definition with recovery, how are you also working towards like your path and accepting that as well?

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah, great question. So, with regard to definition of recovery, you know, for a long time I did have kind of that narrow view of what recovery should look like, whether it was something that I had internalized, something that I heard from loved ones over the years, providers over the years, my own reading of others' work over the years. And I did think of it as, you know, I kind of use in my book, standing on the shoreline. So no eating disorder thoughts, no behaviors, no, you know, hard days, no struggle. And every time I couldn't, you know, dip my toes in the sand and find myself on the shore, it was this internal message constantly that I was failing, that I wasn't good enough, that I wasn't strong enough. And it was really defeating to have that internal message for years, honestly, for decades, to just feel like, you know, I was weak, that this was something, you know, that I was choosing. You know, I had I got those messages as well. And so it took really, again, it's not like one specific thing, I think, that shifted my perspective. I think eventually I realized that I needed to turn more compassion towards myself. And I think some of that just came from, you know, wisdom and life and growing up. I started to redefine recovery for me. And sometimes I like to use the word healing and kind of almost separating it from recovery, but to be personalized and to be values-based. I'm a firm believer I always, you know, really resonated with acceptance and commitment therapy and what my values are. I started years ago a morning gratitude journal that turned into adding values and intention and kind of focus for the day. And it's just a grounding way to start the day. And I really just started to view recovery as something that I defined. And I think that for a lot of individuals, and again, especially those on the long journey, but anyone where they are is, you know, we can get very trapped in kind of that one size fits all and that narrow definition of what it means to be recovered. And yet I think it's meaning and definition is different for every person, and what brings you purpose in your day, joy in your day. And it's not to say every day's perfect, but again, I think that you know, again, it's dependent on each person what recovery truly means.

Guiding Parents To Let Go

SPEAKER_02 10:51

How would you uh because I'm thinking of like the role of a parent, right? And putting myself in like that parent's shoes of okay, well, this is my definition. So how would you like guide a parent, if that's the right way of wording that, to have their own self-acceptance with what their child's recovery definition is to allow the kid to lead in that definition and not have the parents try and steamroll that their definition of recovery is where the client needs to go. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, it does. And that's a great question. It was kind of the second part when you were speaking to even to the meal plan. But I think uh in my chapter on harm reduction, I touch upon this quite a bit of again, kind of shifting what individuals think of when they think of recovery. And I think when you're supporting a loved one, sometimes it's allowing yourself to grieve what you thought your loved one's recovery was going to look like, and to kind of let go of again what what views and vision you had for that, and then stepping from that, recognizing and listening to the one that you're supporting, whether it's a child, a spouse, a friend, but being there to walk alongside them rather than ahead of them and trying to lead them, creating that safe environment for them, but it is really slowing down and it's letting go of what you expect it to look like and accepting it for what it is. And I think a lot of it also is patience. You know, I think a lot of times loved ones want it to be that quote unquote quick fix, or you know, you just all of a sudden it should just be easier, and it's something to do with willpower. And I think recognizing that there has to be a lot of grace and empathy and patience in where your loved one is at the time, not saying that they're gonna be there forever. You know, I talk a lot in my book about kind of the tides of you know, the journey and the ebb and flow. And so recognizing that your support has to change as well. You have to be flexible and adaptable. Um, but it's really that that slowing down and meeting them where they are. I, from my own experience, loved ones and providers that did that for me was a lot more effective than kind of that that push per se.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Now I see why you wrote a memoir. That was so beautifully said. And I love that you use the word grieving, right? Because then I never not that clinicians always have the answers, but I never thought that the parents were grieving their own idea of what recovery is. And I feel like that's such like a light bulb moment because it is, right? It is it is a loss of this is what I'm expecting it to be, and maybe it is, maybe it won't, but I have to be okay with it not being there, and that is a loss, so that is a form of grieving. So I love that. Hi, thanks for teaching me. I appreciate that.

Pizza Practice To Italy: Support In Action

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Thank you. It also makes me think, too, there was a part of the memoir where you wrote a bit about these Friday pizza nights and like the progression of your experience eating pizza and then leading you to like a trip to Italy. And I always talk about as a dietitian, whether it's like with clients or with parents, about like nutrition is like so much in this process about stepping stones. And I think again, it speaks to what we're talking about with like the different expectations of recovery that sometimes you know supports parents, whoever it might be, they may have different expectations than you know, the the pace that we are currently moving at. So I'm just curious, kind of thinking with that example of like the progression, you know, that you experienced with the pizza, what motivated you during those tough times and also for supports as well. Like what was the impact of your family support at that time, too?

Finding Motivation & Your Why

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Yeah, it's such a wonderful question. And I love how you honed in on the progression. I hadn't really thought of it that way because I speak early on about pizza nights in childhood was whether it was unlimited pizza after a soccer practice that we would all, you know, land on the local pizza joint as a team and just the laughter and the fun that we had, or Friday nights as a family when we met at a local place with our cousins and we played for hours in the arcade in the back. And it really was a time where food had freedom and it was associated with ease and pleasure and connection. And then as I got kind of into the throes of my eating disorder, you know, I lost that connection and relationship with others and food within that. I mean, I talked about some different examples when you know the struggle was really hard and it was hard to eat a piece of pizza, whether it was when I was in a season of denial and the person across from me didn't know the struggle and the thoughts that were going on in my mind and how you know I would compensate and punish myself for days after because of it. You know, the slice of pizza that kind of brought me to my knees at one point and really, you know, wanted me to just kind of disappear into the bottom of the ocean because of how hard the struggle was. And so, you know, again, kind of that progression when I started to again shift my perspective about what recovery meant for me, what healing meant, what I wanted my life to be. Um, at that time I had recently gotten married, and that was a huge part in my recovery, just you know, my husband and how much of a rock and an anchor he has been in the support. But we had planned a trip for kind of slash honeymoon slash trip with the kids before they were heading off to college. And I wanted to enjoy pizza in Italy. I wanted that connection. I wanted to, you know, be able to stop in at the cafe and sit around a table and talk about what we had seen that morning, touring around and be present and be involved. And I knew that, you know, going from 10 years of not eating pizza to then all of a sudden throwing myself in cafe in Italy was not going to allow me to be successful. And so it was probably almost six months to eight months before we started at home Friday night pizza night. And it was a way for me to kind of practice in a safe space eating pizza, you know, and again, every week it wasn't perfect. Some weeks were harder than other weeks. Some weeks it was I can only eat a slice tonight and I'm gonna nourish myself in other ways with things that feel doable. Other nights it was, you know, I can have enough pizza that meets the needs that I have. But I think the biggest piece that made it successful is it wasn't always easy. Some of the thoughts were still there, but it's I wasn't facing them alone. And I had somebody sitting next to me to whether it was, you know, hold my hand, distract me, you know, just recognize that this was hard, but be present with me was a huge piece. And so I think that's one of the biggest takeaways for loved ones, again, of not the pressure, not the pushing, not it looking a certain way, but the progression and being present. That's a big piece, I think, for loved ones is you know, being present. Whether your loved one is sitting there with tears streaming down their face, you can't fix that, but you sitting next to them is a lot better than them facing it on their own.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Absolutely. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

And then we got to Italy and I enjoyed some amazing Italian pizza. And we don't do it, we don't do pizza night quite as often anymore, although we did just do it for Valentine's Day this last weekend, so it was fun to do again.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

I love that. I love pizza in Italy. It's the best kind of I know, I know I just want to go back. It's so beautiful there. I love, okay. So, my question for you what kept you motivated? Like, even on the nights when you were like, I like where you were like, I can't, like, I can just do a slice, or I don't know if I can do this. And just like you said, and recovery isn't perfect, right? Like we always say to clients, like, practice makes permanence, nothing is perfect. So if you can allow yourself to keep moving, regardless of what it looked like, how did you do that for yourself?

It’s Not Too Late For Healing

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yeah, it's a great question. I think a lot of it had to do with wanting to override the fear. Fear had ruled my life for so long. And it was, I don't want to say easy to fall back into that, but that's what I knew. And so it got to a place where I didn't want fear to control the decisions I had around food and the way I was living my life. The motivation also, again, going back to values, it's something I really go back to often, but wanting to be able to travel and experience travel and wanting to be able to, you know, be present at a dinner and engaged with my husband or friends or you know, the kiddos around me. And so that was motivating to me. It's, you know, kind of always remembering what my why is in recovery, and those are some of the key things, and then also just for myself, you know, being able to, I don't say like proof to myself, but you know, it takes a lot of strength, I always say, to keep showing up every day and choosing to do the hard things, and it can be exhausting, mentally and physically exhausting. But I wanted to show myself some of that kindness and love that I could do it and I could make it through and make it through a meal or whatever the situation might be. But the motivation really goes back to the continual why. Why am I on this journey and what do I want moving forward? Because I know for a long time how much my eating disorder stole from me. Um, and so I want it to look different.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Beautiful, yeah. And something we were curious to ask you more about too is you know, sometimes people who like to use your words, have been on the long journey and struggle to believe that healing or recovery is possible. And so, what would you say to somebody who's listening who maybe feels like it's like quote unquote like too late for them to find recovery or to find healing?

From Disorder As Identity To Purpose

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah, I love this question, especially because for a long time that's the message I told myself. You know, there was no hope. I was never gonna be quote unquote recovered. And again, it was very much others' definitions or what I thought recovery looked like. And so I think for those that have been on the long journey, whether it's years or decades, there's always hope. But I would encourage individuals to define for themselves what recovery is. I think we can get trapped in a box of what recovery is, and we're not, and when we're not, you know, meeting that expectation, we can get really disappointed with ourselves, frustrated, and it can create kind of a cycle. And I know for myself, those were the seasons when I didn't think I was, you know, fitting that definition of recovery where there Was a lot of inward anger, and then you know, then the cycle kind of of slipping into the eating disorder behaviors from the thoughts really did keep me trapped. And I would encourage individuals to maybe, you know, journal, write out, think about, write it on their mirror. But what does recovery healing, I'd like to say, mean to them? And they might be surprised that they're farther along than they thought when they really sit back to think about what creates a meaningful, values-aligned life for them. And I always go back to it doesn't mean that there's not struggle and complexity. I think all of us as humans, whether we struggle with an eating disorder or not, we're all a work in progress. We all have areas, you know, that we can continue to challenge ourselves on. And it really comes back to starting every day with, you know, what am I gonna do today that's gonna allow me to live my life?

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah. At what point too, or at a point in your memoir, in your memoir, page 13 to be exact, because I was I had Maggie when Maggie and I were talking about this, I was like, I have a question. And of course, my questions are always so long-winded because I am never concise about anything. It's the Italian in me. And I was like, okay, how are we gonna condense this? I was like, Max, I hand it to you. I have no idea. So that's why I like I want to reference the page. But there was a point where you were recognizing that like it's not uh like there was a shift in your uh mindset that it wasn't the eating disorder that was your strength anymore, it was your recovery. Right? So, like at what point did you recognize that the mindset shifted from strength in your eating disorder to strength is within your recovery?

Perfectionism, Flexibility, And Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah, a great question. Glad that you kind of found that within within the memoir there and were able to identify the page number. But yeah, I mean, for a long time, I feel like my eating disorder was my identity, and I, you know, found a lot of strength in, you know, meeting all the rules and expectations that my eating disorder imposed on me and really adhering to that. And it wasn't a single moment again. I think it was small, subtle things in recent years. Again, one, I think, you know, choosing a life of purpose and meaning was a big thing. I think again, meeting my husband working with a treatment provider, my registered dietitian, who I've worked with for almost a decade now, and her perspective on again, healing recovery, what strength is. I started to really use kind of the strength that had always been within me and direct it towards something positive and towards recovery and again that strength every day to wake up and to do the hard thing. And so it was. It was kind of small shifts over the years. I had another provider who said to me, you know, there's a reason you're still here, and that really stuck with me, and it's something that I still think of often. And, you know, I think you can think of it on the surface level for just what it is. But underneath that is, you know, again, what what is my purpose? And to find strength within whether it's, you know, starting this nonprofit, which I'm really, you know, passionate about, pouring into my family, friendships, and what's important to me.

Guidance For Teachers And Coaches

SPEAKER_02 25:39

I love that you brought purpose up because I mean, I love everything that you said, but that last part really just stuck out to me because I feel like that's one of the things, identity and purpose what keeps people in their eating disorder, right? Because you do see yourself as this thing, right? Because even if, you know, I work with clients and we go backwards and we're like, okay, who's the first person that you heard this phrase from, right? If their narrative in their head is like, I'm just not good enough because of my body or I always have to lose weight, whatever it might be, they're like, okay, well, that was from a doctor. But then for so long it went from doctor to themselves. So it sounds like it all of a sudden transitioned to their own words. They do then say, Well, that's me. So then it's hard to differentiate that. And so then figuring out how to make that separation, uh finding your purpose helps that because then you recognize that you're not just good enough in my air quotes for an eat like because of your eating disorder. There's so much more for you in you to provide to people. And so, like, I love uh that you brought that up and that you also identified the different purposes that you hold, right? A good friend, like all the different pieces there, because I think people also rec like believe uh you can only have like one purpose, and like a friendship or a significant other or a family member can't be a purpose for them or like an identity for them. So I just thank you for that. Because I think that's really like so crucial for people to hear.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Yeah, the identity piece definitely. I think for me, a lot of it was the perfectionism, you know. In some ways, perfectionism has served me well, but in a lot of ways, it kept me very trapped in the identity that I associated with my eating disorder because movement had to be perfect, eating had to be perfect, you know, kind of how I moved through my day was very rigid because I had this vision of what perfection was, and it bogged me down. And so being able to recognize the imperfections and not being hard on myself was a big shift in my identity as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Yeah, absolutely. There was another part of your memoir that really stuck out to me, and and for context, so my dad coached high school basketball, my old high school for many years. And throughout that time, I and I still do, but I was volunteering through the high school and would attend a religious retreat a couple times a year, and would like support the high school students and everything. And so, even though it was like a religious retreat in nature, there was a lot of like therapeutic elements that came up with it. And so him and I would have conversations about I'm like, you know, you have to give these student athletes grace, like you don't know what they're going through. Everybody's going through hard things, like we said, you know, and I'm like, and people around us are so impactful to us, right? And we don't realize, especially at young ages. So the part in the memoir where you wrote like some guidance for coaches, I absolutely loved that. I was, you know, so floored when I saw that. And then, you know, I know you included in some more for teachers as well. So I'm just curious of like what encouraged you to include that in, and then any, you know, additional advice that you would have for some of these people who are, you know, in these different roles.

Language, Influence, And Red Flags

Advice For Clinicians On Long Journeys

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah, thank you. So I'm gonna preface it by saying, you know, I was an educator for 15 plus years before stepping away. Some of my fondest and greatest joys from a professional standpoint came from my time in the classroom. Also did a lot of coaching. I've coached youth all the way through college athletes. And so, you know, those were two areas where I wanted to bring attention to in the memoir. Um, and so I did, you know, have a whole chapter specific to them. I want to start by saying both teachers and coaches have such an incredible impact on youth. It's such a sacred field and position. Um, it's also a unique position because oftentimes, you know, you spend so much time with students or your athletes, sometimes more than you know, the parent. And so you really you get to see kind of all the different parts. And, you know, I've had, you know, the opportunity to really, when I was in a school, kind of the the part of the memoir where I identified teachers, it wasn't from my experience, like as a child, and you know, teachers that taught me, but really my time in the classroom, and just some of the observations I had. And again, so much respect for teachers, they pour so much time, energy, love, dedication into the profession and what they do. And sometimes unintentionally, um, not wanting to cause harm, some of the messages, whether they are within the classroom itself or just you know, between coworkers in the hallway, can be absorbed by the students around them. And I observed that, you know, quite a bit my time in different schools over the years. And so, you know, just some of the key takeaways I had was recognizing that you're a role model. And, you know, uh my experiences with elementary, but they're very literal, they're very concrete, tend to be. And so, you know, what you model, what you say, they take to heart. And I used one example of picking my kids up from a PE class and seeing them doing a relay race where they were bringing back food items and placing them under healthy and unhealthy categories. And then a couple hours later, listening to students, you know, flipping over and talking about the food in front of them. And so, again, you know, not an ill-intended activity, but just what the students took from that really has a lasting impact. And so, you know, to teachers, it really was, you know, the language that you use providing an inclusive classroom, allowing students to have, you know, opportunities to eat if they're hungry. That was another thing, is that, you know, I know schools are very scheduled, but sometimes students are rushed through meals, teachers make comments about, you know, you shouldn't have that in your lunchbox. And so just little things like that, of just being really aware of your role as an influencer in these children's lives. And then kind of shifting from there to coaches, you know, I did have some examples of the messages I received as an athlete. You know, I was an athlete, and that was a huge part of who I was as a child, and was so grateful for all the opportunities I had as an athlete, but it also was very enmeshed in my eating disorder, that compulsive need to move. And, you know, one example I had was a college coach popping his head in and calling me a gym rat when I was in college, and didn't realize, you know, on the surface, it looked like I was just dedicated and committed and not recognizing that that was really a compulsive behavior I was engaging in. And so a lot of my messages that I shared to coaches, very similar kind of to teachers. I think the overarching theme is to know your athlete as a whole person, not just as an academic student or just not as an athlete, but who they are as a person, asking questions, being really aware. Again, coaches, you serve as role models as well. So what you do, what you say makes a huge difference. Again, kind of that no pain, no gain mindset, I think can be really dangerous as well. You know, allowing rest days, making sure your athletes are fueling, all of those different pieces, not ignoring red flags. And it doesn't mean maybe as a coach or teacher, you feel like, you know, you aren't equipped with, you know, how to start those conversations, but not ignoring them. So whether you use a school supports, you know, service or as a coach, you know, you reach out to their caregiver. But I just think that again, I kind of use teachers and coaches as a sandbar. I mean, they allow our youth to thrive and to grow and they have that strong foundation, and yet it's a role that, you know, is quite a privilege. And there's a lot kind of within it that they can help students and athletes.

The Dragonfly Symbol & Grief

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for including that because I think, yeah, it's it stuck out to me so much, and I think that's something just overall about your memoir. And I know you had kind of mentioned this earlier, but that there's just so many different aspects where people can take things away, whether they're seeing themselves within your journey at different parts, or you know, whether they're kind of connecting with, well, you know, I do have influence when it comes to other people, and I can take this, you know, guidance and and impact somebody else with it.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Yeah, that's that's my hope. Again, it's not only for those that, you know, struggle, it's for those that support them and those, like you said, that are in different different roles. And I think, you know, sometimes as coaches and teachers, you know, your your job is so busy and there's so many different plates you have up in the air, but at the core, again, really being in tune with those that are in your care is so imperative.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Yeah. And I I don't think people always realize how impactful their words can be. Or like just like you're saying, like that one gym activity or like that relay, you might not realize what you're doing or like how someone's going to take that, but that uh made me really sad to hear that like that was happening. So like it is also just you know, language and Maggie and I like always I harp on language all the time, and like Maggie and I are always talking about it, but it it is important, right? Because once again, kids are sponges, and so if you're not really paying attention to that, and if you're not taking into consideration, you know, like how is this going to affect people, you know, it something with good intent can become very negative.

unknown 35:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

And even when it's indirect, like I said, if you're not even directly talking to a student, but you're having a conversation with a coworker about the diet you started last week. I mean, students are around and they hear those messages and then they start to question, you know, because they look up to you. I mean, students and athletes look up to their coaches and teachers, and so it really is a role that is an honor to be in, but just makes you have to be extra hyper-aware of the language you use.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

I wanted to ask you too, because we're both clinicians who've been in the field for almost 10 years each, and always open to learning and and growing too. And so I'm curious any advice you would have for clinicians working with clients today based on your experiences.

Building A Peer-Led Nonprofit

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yeah, thank you. I've had the privilege of working with some incredibly gifted clinicians over the years, and I say, you know, the privilege because I know for a lot of individuals who struggle, you know, getting care, there's a lot of barriers to that. And so I feel very fortunate that I've had the ability to work with providers and seasoned providers in eating disorder spaces who, you know, have a lot of knowledge and a lot of experience. I think some of my, you know, kind of what comes to mind when I think of, you know, things to consider. One is kind of that continual growth. So, you know, never to become stagnant, but to continually learn, whether that's listening to podcasts, reading books, doing research, the field is always growing and expanding. And so I think, you know, always learning is a huge piece of it. I think my answer is going to be a little bit specific to kind of those on the long journey and supporting those on the long journey, because again, I feel like sometimes that's where some of that growth can happen for clinicians. I think whether it's from their own schooling or just, you know, from their experience, they kind of have one way maybe of supporting somebody. And when you're supporting somebody on a long journey, sometimes it looks very different. And so what's been helpful for me with providers are those providers that include me. That's a big piece. You know, I think for a long time I didn't feel like I could trust myself or had wisdom because it felt more like I was being talked to versus kind of included in conversations. And so, some more of that like collaborative approach with those you're working with, some autonomy as well. And so recognizing that you may have kind of a vision for what the next goal should be or for what should be being worked on at this time or where you know this client should be, but turning some of that over to what do you want to be working on right now? What feels important to you are really questions that have been valuable to me. The slowing down piece is another huge piece. Um, you know, I've had fantastic providers who are willing to work at a slow pace. And I think when you're on the long journey, sometimes, you know, it feels like you're never gonna get near the shore, but it keeps, you know, it has kept me from being at the bottom of the ocean. And so sometimes it's being able to slow down with somebody and recognize that you might have a goal and you, you know, with a client who maybe has not been struggling so long, it might be a goal that you have for a couple weeks. With somebody that's been on the long journey, it might be a goal that you work on for months. And being okay with that, that's a big piece as well. And then I feel like I always come back to kind of Carl Rogers and just that empathy, that unconditional positive regard, that genuineness, and always holding hope. I think that was a big piece along the way is the providers, whether they outright said it or I just knew from their words and actions that they had endless hope, not necessarily in, you know, whatever recovery might be, but they had hope in me as a person, meant more than I think they knew at that time. So those are just some things that kind of initially come to mind. Thank you. Really helpful. Yeah, thank you so much for that.

Where To Find The Book & Connect

SPEAKER_02 39:32

I know we have so many like questions to ask, and I know that we're gonna need you back. I know we've already asked, but we're gonna need you back because we have more questions. But one question I really wanted to make sure that we got in today's episode, and I know I kind of like hijacked to start talking about your nonprofit, and then I completely hijacked and started talking about other things about your memoir. So I do want to circle back to that, and I just wanted, you know, two things the dragonfly, and I know like I'm a big believer in symbols. So, like for your nonprofit, you know, what inspired that name? Like, is dragonfly like a a symbol for you in any way? And like what uh uh what made you go down that path a little deeper? Because I know you like kind of highlighted on that in the beginning, but I wanted to hear more about it.

Closing & Calls To Action

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Yeah. So a dragonfly is dream. So yes, I also love symbolism, uh, hence why my whole book is full of metaphors and symbolism. But the dragonfly really has, you know, kind of two meanings for me. Initially, it has to do with my grams. So my grandma was such a significant part of my life forever. She was always present, involved, um, just an incredible person. And so when she developed cancer and was kind of on a slow progression, when I went to say goodbye to her, kind of in her final weeks, me and my siblings, we kind of each got a time alone with her. And she said to me, you know, she obviously had seen my struggle from the beginning. I still was not in a great place at that time. And, you know, she never outright spoke kind of the word eating disorder over all the years. That just wasn't her nature, even though I knew her support was always there. But in that moment when I was saying goodbye to her, she said to me, you know, I know you can overcome this, Johanna. You're strong enough. I really hope, you know, my dream for you is that you find joy and love in this lifetime. And, you know, that was the last conversation we had. And then, you know, I'm gonna get emotional. This is the one chapter, a dragonfly dream that comes near the end of the book. And every time I read it, I end up crying. Um, and you know, in the months that followed, I just caught dragonflies, you know, whether it was, you know, across the window of my car, when I stepped outside, when I was on a walk. And I just happened to mention it to my sister one day, and she said the same. And it was always kind of when I wanted to pick up the phone to call my grams. And so we both, you know, kind of associated her spirit of being the dragonfly, and it made sense. She loved being outdoors, she loved gardening, she was, you know, strong but yet graceful, you know, resilient. So it made sense that that was what we associated with my grandma. My sister actually, she got married after my grandma had passed, and she had a dragonfly that she wove into the bottom of her wedding dress. And so when I decided to start a nonprofit, I wanted to tie in the dragonfly symbol. And then the other symbolism meaning that comes with it, not personal, but dragonflies really represent transformation and change. They spend most of their lives underwater, kind of in darkness, growing, but in quiet ways, unseen ways, until they come towards the light, come towards the surface, and then kind of skim across the surface. And so they repres represent that unseen, quiet resilience. And so it seemed fitting that not only did it honor my grandma, but it also, you know, really was empowering of what I wanted the nonprofit to symbolize and represent of the strength within everybody and the light within everybody. So kind of merged those two together to create the name Dragonfly's Dream.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

I love it. My my grandma, we see as a butterfly. So, and it was like very similar. Where it was like my aunt started seeing butterflies. We start like my sister and I started seeing them, and then it was like super Italian, but like we all like one night, my cousins, my dad, and her sisters, like we all got together and we started making zeppelies, and one of them literally turned out looking like a butterfly, like it had the like a little center and like two like bigger parts on the sides, and my sister was like, Oh my god, this looks like a butterfly, and like all the females started crying, which like a shocker, and we were like, Why is everyone crying? And but and it all came to us that like everyone has been seeing butterflies, but no one talked about it. So, like the that yes, that's why I started crying. So I was like, I understand it. Yeah, it's yeah, it's so promise is always nearby. Exactly, a hundred percent. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

What would you say the kind of hope for the nonprofit is?

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Yeah, I love that. So initially, so the vision and mission is to create a peer-led harbor. So really peer-led, not a replacement for clinical support, but I think there is a lot of value in peer-led spaces. So a peer-led harbor grounded in harm reduction, kind of the key theme, mind, body, spirit connection, and kind of that pursuit of hope and freedom. And so initially we're starting with support groups. So one in-person peer-led support group here in the Raleigh area where I am. And then hoping within, you know, let that kind of settle for a month or two, and then starting a virtual support group as well so that we can reach more individuals. Very specific for adults who identify as being on the long journey. You know, I'm not putting like a time frame on that. I think you know everyone knows themselves well enough. But a space that is, again, often overlooked, but really needed. Um, I've done a lot of support groups over the years and a lot of value within coming together, but sometimes, you know, feeling like I was either the oldest one there or the one that had struggled the longest, not being able to, you know, identify to a lot of the conversation. So I wanted to create a space where people feel seen that have been on the long journey. Um, so that's kind of the anchor right now of the nonprofit. It being a little bit structured, I think that's the teacher in me, but I want it to be a space that integrates, whether it's like a gentle stretch mindfulness at the beginning, some you know, creative aspects, whether it's reflections on poetry or art, and then kind of what you would expect in a typical support group of being able to come together. But I want people to leave each week really feeling like they've had the hour of grounding and then something positive to take with them in the week ahead. And then long term, my intention is to provide need bade need-based scholarships for individuals. Again, I feel like you know, I've had such a gift of being able to work with incredible providers, and I wanted to give that back to those who may not have access. And so being able to provide scholarships is another piece of the nonprofit. And then really my long-term vision, I'm not sure the time frame on this, would be to start a peer-led harm reduction-based day program. So for you know, myself who has done, you know, kind of traditional treatment numerous times, again, the gift in that, but recognizing, you know, the kind of clinical one size fits all approach to treatment didn't necessarily I don't want to say work, but you know, I was I want to create a space that just looks different. And so that's long-term vision for the nonprofit as well.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Well, when all these really hit the ground running, especially that virtual support group, let a girl know I'm sending it.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

I will.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

I love that. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Amazing. Yeah, and so this episode is coming out on the day that your memoir is also being published, which is so exciting. Like hopefully, listeners can tell. Jessica and I, you know, really loved it and found it to be so beautiful and and well written. So, can you tell our listeners how they can get a copy? Can you tell us where we can connect with you and find you?

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Yeah, wonderful. So it's gonna be available on Amazon initially, so that will be the main place. So you can search for When the Water Still Holds Me, and it will come up on Amazon. Um, and there is a paperback that releases on Monday, and then the ebook releases on Tuesday. And so both options there are available. And then I have social media, so you can find me on Facebook and Instagram. I have one for the nonprofit, so a dragonfliesdream kind of is the handle for both of those. And then shimmering seaglass is what I use for the book. And when you read the book, you'll understand the seaglass metaphor. But the shimmering seaglass is where you can find me on Instagram and Facebook as well. And then I do have websites for both, so a dragonfliesdream.com for the nonprofit, and then shimmeringseaglass.com for the book and for you know, kind of events and conferences.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time, your insights, and we will be posting and reposting all that information as well. So listeners will be able to get connected with you too. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Thank you so much, Jessica and Maggie. It really was a delight to be here today with both of you. I appreciate your time and what you do with this podcast in this community.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? Thank you for coming. Like, you know, Maggie and I, you know, we were so excited to start this, but if if it if it's not for, you know, individuals like you who actually say, like, yeah, let me come on, we wouldn't be able to do what we do. So thank you for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Yeah, no, it was a pleasure. Awesome. And get ready for round two because we've got more questions for you. So get ready. We're coming back.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Love it. I'll be back. Ready.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Oh, well, thank you everyone for tuning in today. Um, and go to Amazon. Please go and purchase the book, and we will catch you in the next one. Bye, guys. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Nourish and Empower Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

We hope this episode helped you redefine, reclaim, and restore what health means to you.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe, leave a rating, and comment and share with anyone else you may feel will benefit.