Recovery Isn’t Linear: If Recovery Feels Hard Right Now, Listen to This

Healing can feel like you’re doing everything “right” and then one trigger knocks you sideways. We’re naming that experience for what it is: normal, common, and not proof you’re failing. Recovery isn’t linear, especially when you’re trying to rebuild your relationship with food and body image while real life keeps happening around you.

We talk about the difference between a relapse and what we jokingly call the “cha cha slide” moments, those slips and loops that feel awful but can still be part of progress. We share a clearer visual for eating disorder recovery: a spiral of healing where you may revisit the same themes, but with more tools, more awareness, and more ability to come back to center. We also dig into why people tend to focus on the hard parts and miss the quiet wins, and how learning to hold two truths at once can change everything.

Then we get practical about ambivalence: wanting recovery while still missing the eating disorder. We explain why the eating disorder often served a purpose, how the stages of change can help you understand where you are today, and why “I can’t” sometimes really means “I’m not willing right now.” We also break down what a real recovery toolbox looks like, why support teams matter, and how showing up with 30% can still be your 100%.

Sponsored by Hilltop Behavioral Health. If you want more honest conversations about eating disorder treatment, mental health, nutrition, and recovery, subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a rating and review.

Show notes:

Trigger warning: this show is not medical, nutrition, or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with a Registered Dietitian, Licensed Mental Health Provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider, as well as crisis resources, in the show notes. Listener discretion is advised.

Resource links:

Alliance for Eating Disorders: https://www.allianceforeatingdisorders.com/ 

ANAD: https://anad.org/

NEDA: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/

NAMI: https://nami.org/home

Action Alliance: https://theactionalliance.org/

NIH: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/

How to find a provider: 

https://map.nationaleatingdisorders.org/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us

https://www.healthprofs.com/us/nutritionists-dietitians?tr=Hdr_Brand

Suicide & crisis awareness hotline: call 988 (available 24/7)

Eating Disorder hotline: call or text 800-931-2237 (Phone line is available Monday-Thursday 11 am-9 pm ET and Friday 11 am-5 pm ET; text line is available Monday-Thursday 3-6 pm ET and Friday 1-5 pm ET)

If you are experiencing a psychiatric or medical emergency, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.

Transcript

Show Mission, Sponsor, Safety Notes

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Join us as we redefine, reclaim, and restore the true meaning of health.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Let's dive into the tough conversations about mental health, nutrition, eating disorders, diet culture, and body image. This is Nourish and Empower. This episode is brought to you by Hilltop Behavioral Health, specializing in eating disorder treatment.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Hilltop offers integrated therapy and nutrition care in one compassionate setting.com because healing happens here.

Why Recovery Is Not Linear

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Hi, everybody. Welcome to this week's episode. Today we are going to talk about how recovery isn't linear, the kind of honest and nuanced side of healing and recovery. So, trigger warning to get started. We are identifying the following triggers that will be discussed but are not limited to eating disorders, body image, and mental health. Listener discretion is advised. This show is not medical nutrition or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with a registered dietitian, licensed mental health provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider as well as crisis resources in the show notes. Do you ever does the does that trigger warning ever just come in your head? Like throughout your week?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

It does. I'm like, I always, it's always so funny to me because like when I'm reading it, I feel like I stumble over my words. Like I don't know it. But as you were saying it, I literally was like saying it also out loud or mouthing it. So yes, but it's also funny how like when I'm doing it, I'm like, oh my God, don't mess up, don't miss up, don't miss.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

No, I'm like, I could recite it in my sleep at this point. But it's important. But I was just saying, it's like it's, you know, since we say it so often. Ingrained in our brains now, 100%, yes. Exactly. So I'm glad we're talking about this because I was thinking back, and I don't actually feel like we've ever done an episode on this topic, or like there's been elements where this topic has come up, but I feel like it was very like a little piece here, a little piece there.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

And I think it's really important for us to highlight like how having an eating disorder is really hard and recovering from an eating disorder is really hard. And the entire process is incredibly hard and takes a lot of time and takes a lot of work. And I don't think people always realize that who have not gone through it themselves or don't have like a close kind of awareness of it the way we do as providers or the way like a very close support person would.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

I feel like too, we've had conversations like work-wise, where, like in general, like I'm just thinking, even me at like other jobs in the past, I feel like the conversation that recovery isn't linear is an ongoing one, even with support people and even with clients, because I feel like it can be very frustrating. And I want to validate the frustration of we've been doing, we've been doing, we've been doing, we've seen success, we've seen change, we've seen all this thing since something happens. And whether it's a relapse or what I like to call the cha-cha side, you know, it's just like a little bit of a slip or whatever have you. Like it is very frustrating and I get it. And I think sometimes support people and clients are like, okay, but why? Like, why isn't this happening? It's because recovery isn't linear. So I agree with you. I think it's so good that we're having this conversation because I think it's one of the most frustrating things about recovery that it can't just be like a straight positive correlation, if you will, on I'm going to recover and this is what it's going to look like. It's more so of an absolute cluster beep instead.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah. I love when you say the cha-cha slide thing because I think it it is such a good example. But when you hear recovery isn't linear, or when you have said to clients recovery isn't linear, what does that mean for you specifically as a clinician, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 4:13

That you're gonna have really good days and you're gonna have really bad days, and progress isn't based on like the ratio of good versus bad. Like it's just okay, you're going and you're doing really, really well, and then you learn something, you get triggered, you maybe go backwards. Like it's just people don't realize, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. Words and one thought at a time, Jessica. Recovery isn't linear, just means that it's not going to be a hundred percent getting better a hundred percent of the time. And that does not mean that you are not in recovery if you are struggling. And I think that that's the part that like I really want to emphasize for people is that like recovery isn't linear because you're going to struggle through recovery. And I don't think that's something that people are comfortable with. Number one. And number two, like I was saying before, like just because you have like really good weeks or really good days or really good months doesn't mean that then if we have that cha-cha slide or that relapse of a day, a week, a month, whatever, it doesn't mean that all of the progress you just made completely wipes out. It just means that whatever it is that we experienced in that moment was such a shock to the system or it wasn't something we experienced before, or whatever have you. Like it it was a learning experience we had to have because I don't think people recognize that you're not just learning how to recover, you're learning how to live simultaneously. And a lot of living experiences trigger the eating disorder. So you're figuring out how do I have a better relationship with food in my body while I'm also going to school, dating, getting married, having a kid, going to grad school, like whatever it is. And a lot of those things are just driving down the highway and ignoring a billboard, watching TV, and ignoring a GLP commercial, like recovery isn't linear because you're trying to figure out how to do so many different FN things at the same time, and it's overwhelming. So yeah, that was a lot. But that's those are my thoughts and my feelings.

The Spiral Model Of Healing

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Love it. You're here for all of it. And I think, too, to emphasize the last point that you were making, a lot of those different elements of life that come in throughout the recovery process might be things that people have experienced before, but might be things that people haven't experienced before. And so I think that's such an important piece of it too, which is why, again, like this is a process. Or I loved when Johanna has said like a healing journey, right? When we've talked to her. And I think that's such great language because it goes to show too, you know, yes, somebody can, you know, have made a lot of progress and feel really stable in their recovery process. And then something comes in that was unexpected, or there is a major life change or decision or something that happens. And it doesn't mean that it's a full relapse or it's even a lapse. It could just be exactly what we're saying, like the the isn't linear part. And I love the the visual too of like a spiral of healing where it's like, yes, it's like a progression and a trajectory moving up, but there's also like sometimes there's those loops that we feel like we get stuck in for a period of time. And it doesn't mean that there isn't still growth happening. It doesn't mean that it's a step back. It's just like we're kind of circling around a little bit in this same spot. And we have our tools and we have our people and we have our team and we move our way out of that loop and we keep up with the progression. And I think that's such a good way of seeing it. So it doesn't feel like a constant like back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

100%. And I think, right, that's part of the difficulty of recovery is that people, one, they want it to be easy, understandably so. And two, people just want it to be a like an experience that makes sense for them. And it's one of the most like non, like it doesn't make sense until it happens sometimes, right? You don't learn the lesson or you don't see the progression unless it like until it happens, right? Like working with clients, we see every day that like one instance is a huge trigger, and then like a few months later, they have a very similar experience, and then it's not a trigger. And then for us to be able to say, like, okay, you thought you were relapsing, or you thought you weren't going to be able to ever have that situation happen again. And now look at you. A month later, you did the same thing with the same triggers, and it didn't even affect you. You didn't have a thought, you didn't have whatever. And I think that's also part of things not being linear. It's not just you go from good to struggle, you also go from struggle to good in ways that you don't recognize it until maybe you have someone like a provider be like, you want to tap in there and see what you just did. And I feel like those are also the moments that are just so important for everybody to tap into, or as the kids say, clock it. Because you want, like you're always going to see something different. It's just allowing you to see that whether it was a positive or a negative or like a growth or a struggle, however you want to word it, that there's always a lesson learned in those moments. You're not just like, it's not a success or a failure. I mean, it is, but if we don't like that language, it's not success and failure is in the sense that like you're terrible. It's the sense that like it's a struggle or a growth. That's kind of like the the words that I like to use more because you are. You're either growing in your recovery or you're realizing a struggle that you didn't know that you had until that moment.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And I think, and I find too, which I think is is really interesting, and this is something we see with people in recovery, but also people outside of recovery too, is how more likely we are to focus on the challenges than the wins, or how much more time and effort we give to it. And and I think this is something that comes up again for people in recovery, right? Is you know, they might be reflecting on their week, kind of focusing more on the difficult times. Not that that isn't important to talk about and and think about and focus on, you know, what is my takeaway from this, but that there's also so many, you know, wonderful moments happening in between. And I think that's such an important piece of it too. And sometimes even when we think about how recovery isn't linear, I also think too, sometimes people focus, they hear that and they focus on the negative, right? Of like, oh, okay, so there's always gonna be, you know, those loops. There's always gonna be those difficult times. And it's like, yes, we're acknowledging that, but we're also saying, like, there's always gonna be the good stuff happening too. There's always gonna be the positive things happening too. And we can hold space for both, and both can exist at the same time in the same week, on the same day.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

And I think that's something that people, recovery-related or not, struggle with is two conflicting things living in the same space. And I see that a lot in my personal life of like, you know, I don't like to be therapist dressed with my friends and family, but sometimes she comes out and I can't help myself. But, you know, it is saying to people, like, you can feel two very conflicting things if for a certain scenario, you can experience, you know, anything can happen where there's something conflicting, and it doesn't make one less than the other, it doesn't make one right, one wrong. It's just like you're human, right? And so to even identify in recovery that you can have growth and you can have struggles, like it's just part of the process. And I love that you, oh my light, and I love that you brought up to I got so distracted, my light turned off.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

I'm so sorry. I'll just point out Jessica uses this light and it's amazing. And every single day that we see each other, this light goes out at some point while we're meeting without fail. And maybe this is a great example. I actually love this like metaphor of like the light is on, the light turns off, it all happens within like the same meeting every single time. And your light journey is not linear because I feel like this is such a good example, too, of like we're seeing the positive, we're seeing the negative, but this light, it's so beautiful and bright when it's on, but it's you know, it spends a lot of time off, too.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

It does, it does, and it's so funny because you bring that up, and every time it turns off, I go, Oh, my light, as if I'm like that it turns off. Like I know that one's going to die, but it doesn't stay like on for that long. Keep it plugged in, but then when it's plugged in, my battery drains like a whole thing. You know, you gotta very much like recovery. You have to figure out the system. You have to, wow, Mags. This is a good one. Kudos to you, girl. But it is right. You like you have to figure out what system works and you have to know going into something. I know my light's gonna die at some point. It doesn't necessarily have to affect anything unless I make it bigger than it needs to be. I can be annoyed and I can know that there is a very easy solution, plug it in and I will be fine, or we just don't have a light and it will be fine, which is very similar to recovery, right? And things existing in you can be annoyed something happens, and if it happens, we learn to go with the flow. And it is annoying when we feel like we've been putting so much work and so much effort into our recovery, and then all of a sudden, like something goes to poop. Like it is very annoying. And I get it, right? It's very, very normal. Part of life outside of recovery, part of life is going with the flow. Being able to experience the downfalls, being able to validate for ourselves, like, okay, this was terrible. I hate it that this happened. I didn't want, like, this is the outcome I was dreading. And how do we feel it and then move on? Because, you know, yes, we have to give ourselves time to process when appropriate, and we have to give ourselves time to feel when appropriate. We also have to give ourselves time to move to move on, to move forward, because we we can't just sit in that negative space because that's not gonna do us any good either. So it's like recovery is also allowing us to learn life skills. It's not just, oh, like this is what I'm doing for recovery. No, no, this is what we're doing for everything. We're just in a very like lens about doing it for recovery.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Such a good point. And I think too, kind of going off the topic of two things coexisting

Ambivalence And The Stages Of Change

SPEAKER_01 14:56

or holding space at the same time. Something that is really, really common theme is ambivalence and recovery. Like people wanting, wanting recovery and wanting to progress throughout their healing journey, and at the same time also not being ready to let go of their eating disorder. And I think we we see that so often. And as providers, we in a sense expect that to, you know, to be a part of somebody's journey. And yet it's really tough for clients to acknowledge. It's really tough for families to acknowledge. So I'm just curious on that topic to hear a little bit more about, you know, your experience with that and what you feel like helps clients kind of progress through that ambivalence.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

So, one of the things that I'd like to do with clients is like go through the stages of change and understand where they are within those five stages. And for those of you, I'm actually gonna pull up my cheat sheet because it's gonna make this a lot easier for my brain, also. Because look, therapists need cheat sheets too. We can't remember everything. However, so there are five stages of change, and they are pre-contemplation, where there is a denial, lack of awareness of a problem that could be occurring. There's the contemplative stage where there's the admission of an issue or a problem, but there is a fear of change, which I think would like cosign with ambivalence. There's the preparation stage, which is starting to set up a plan to address the problem and beginning to follow through with those stages or like with the plan. Then there's the action phase or stage where you are actively challenging any behaviors, implementing strategies. You have trust in others, trust in your team, trust in yourself, and you're really putting things, you know, again, into action. And then the last stage is maintenance. So it's maintaining progress, made, continuing with the action stage, consistently making recovery-oriented choices, and you're allowing yourself to have an identity outside of the eating disorder. And the reason why I like to go through that is to really understand and even to allow the client to see, because once again, right, this is for them. So I like them to be able to even acknowledge, like, okay, if I'm thinking about where I am naturally, this is where I would lie there. Like, this is where I would land. And I, for me, I think it's important because sometimes clients might be like, no, like I am ready, but then they recognize that they're not actually, like maybe they're in preparation, but they think they're in action. Or maybe they're in contemplation, but they think they're in preparation, right? Sometimes I think what we perceive and what the reality is, they don't always equate. So I like to do it not to be like, you're wrong, let's look at this, but it's to be like, okay, what are you feeling and what is happening? And then I think when we have the conversation and we recognize that we're in this contemplative, ambivalent stage, it's meeting the client where they're at while also finding the areas that I can challenge them. Because there are clients where they're like, I know what I will not do. Okay, why? And I know that within I will not, there is a I can or I could, right? And so it's kind of like sometimes building up to that space of right now, I know I'm not willing. But like it's almost, I wouldn't say it's like exposure therapy, but it's almost like creating those steps of like, where is it that are you struggling? And like, what are the baby steps that like I'm thinking about as a clinician, or is it collaboratively done and identified with the client? But I think it is just knowing that you can meet your client where they're at while also challenging them in little ways, whether in that specific challenge or in other ones outside of it, to then be able to allow them to see, like, okay, well, I can challenge myself here and how I built those skills so I could bring it into the place that I'm really avoidant of and know that I've got myself because I've seen myself do it somewhere else. I don't know if that made sense.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

I know I just said a lot, which is typical, but that's no, I love the I love the I can or I could. I wasn't sure what you were going to say there. When you said I can, I wasn't sure if you were going to say something with a negative connotation next, but I love the I can or I could. And I think the stages of change is great because as a dietitian, do that as well. And and I think it's also something too, and this is a to go off of today's topic with recovery not being linear, like there's so much re-evaluation with all of this for not just clinicians, but also for the the person and you know, and the supports too. Because I I hope that like the point that we're getting across is that like, you know, when we say recovery isn't linear, it's there's there's so much within this spectrum, right? Like there could be, you know, a week where it feels like there's been a lot of progression and things feel, you know, like they're going really well. And then there can be a really challenging week that follows it, and you know, and vice versa, right? And so I think it's important to see that. I also think too, there's kind of a self-acceptance piece coming in here that it's important for clients to acknowledge that maybe they do miss their eating disorder. And missing their eating disorder doesn't mean that they don't want recovery still. Like you can want recovery and still miss your eating disorder because something we always try and explain is like, and I think this is so important for support people, the eating disorder served a purpose. The eating disorder would not have been present had there not been a purpose served, whether it was a comfort zone or something to help with loneliness or a coping skill, even though we know it's a maladaptive coping skill and it's not a healthy or sustainable coping skill. It was certainty, like there's so many different aspects of roles that the eating disorder could have served. So it makes sense that somebody wants to progress towards recovery or is in recovery and may still have some of those elements of the eating disorder that they had felt comfort with for so long come into their mind too.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Yeah. I think that's such a hard thing for people to accept, is that the eating disorder served a purpose, right? And I but I think if we allow ourselves to recognize that an eating disorder is very similar to self-harm. Right. An eating disorder is very similar to, uh, and this might be like a hot take, but it's also very similar to being like in a very toxic abusive relationship. It's just with two sides of your brain, right? It's like an individual thing instead of you having a significant other that's putting you that in that place. And there just like you said, there's this comfort. In the negative, and you know what you know, right? And that's a conversation I have with clients all the time. You're comfortable with the devil you know, and not the devil you don't. So I'm going to stay in what's comfortable for me, even though I know it's bad, because I've no idea what lies on the other side. And a lot of times that thought within itself is why they're ambivalent, because that unknown forces them to go into like a panic. And then they're like, okay, well, why am I going to put myself into such an uncomfortable, like panic state that I sometimes I feel like I can't get out of? So why am I going to do that? I'll just stay in my eating disorder. So, like, I psychologically you can understand. However, psychologically, I know what's on the other side because I've seen it, right? Like we've seen clients recover in our time. I've I've seen clients go from severe to in remission, if we want to use that language, or like in recovery. And so, like, the reason why I said to before of like I can and I could, is because I always say to clients, it's not that you can't, it's that there's an unwillingness to in that moment. And that's okay. I just always want clients to know that like you have the capability of doing it, but if you're not willing to in that moment, there's a reason for that. So let's uncover it. And when clients are saying, like, I can and I could, that's a pause to me. We'll get to it later at another time. And I always feel like that's always important for clients to recognize too. Like if that's where you're seeking control of under you choosing like what we're gonna tackle and things of that nature. Okay, but we're also gonna recognize our capabilities and we're also going to see like the intention of not doing, doing and like things like that too.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah, I'm grad, I'm glad you brought capabilities into it too. Cause I think even with the like unwillingness part, I think recognizing that, like, are we able to? Do we have the tools? Do we have the supports? Like, there's so much more to that than you know, than just willingness and even looking at it in that lens of like, okay, you know, this feels like something. I I wouldn't say this is something I can do right now. Maybe this is something I could in the future. All right, well, what are the tools that we need? You know, you know, I love my recovery toolbox.

Building A Recovery Toolbox And Team

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Like, what are the tools that we need in order to be able to achieve this? Because I always give clients the example of like, yeah, like, you know, a hammer is great, but a hammer isn't the only tool in somebody's toolbox when they're going to work on a project. If they only have a hammer and they don't have a screwdriver and a ruler and a pencil and a level and all the other things that they need, like, what good is the hammer on its own? Like, same thing when we think about our recovery tools. It's like, yeah, it's great that we have, you know, maybe a specific coping skill, but what if we can't always access that in that moment? We also, you know, need a variety of tools. We need people, we need, you know, maybe tangible things. We need more of our kind of emotional tools. Like, we need a wide variety of those different tools. We don't always have the ability or the availability to use all of them in the moment. And I think that's such a big piece of it too.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

And it's also recognizing that some of our tools are leaning on other people who can do it that we can't, right? Because it's also recognizing that like it's not a limitation. It's just not, and maybe it is a limitation. Some people like that word, some people don't. But like, you know, I think it's they're like for me and you, for instance, I can't do the food piece. That is all that that that is my boundary, right? I can talk to people about how much I love food, but you, that's that's a you thing, Maggie. So to me, it's like, I don't think that I'm less of a team player or less of a provider because I can't, I don't have the capabilities of understanding the nutrition science and things of that nature. So that's why I tap you in. And I think sometimes clients struggle with understanding that like they don't need to know how to do everything, they don't need to be able to fit into every role. That's why we have support people, that's why we have treatment teams, that's why we understand our strengths and our however you want to word the opposite of strengths, like capabilities or incapabilities, whatever the word is you want to use. And that's okay. We're not meant to be able to do everything in life. That's not our purpose. It's not anybody's purpose. That'd be so much. Tap me out. I want to do everything.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

No, but that's that's a really good point, though, too. It's like we, and look, obviously, you know, sometimes people struggle with perfectionism. I know we've we've had episodes fully on that, and people hold themselves to, you know, really high standards or expectations that sometimes are, you know, so, so difficult. But it's such a good point of like, you wouldn't expect that you would have to be a hundred percent in every single role that you have in life. So why would it have to be a hundred percent on you solely when it came to your recovery? Like, that's the whole purpose of having supports and having a team and having skills and having resources like this, you know, to be able to, you know, help help get to that a hundred percent, right? And obviously, you know, a big majority of it comes from the individual person and that internal motivation, but that it doesn't have to be that a hundred percent all the time. Like that reminds me of the Brene Brown. I'm not gonna say it correctly, but I know you like her. And I she has something about like when you can't bring a hundred percent, you know, into her example is into a relationship. Do you know, do you know what it actually is? Okay, take it away, my dear.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

So I don't know what the name of it is, but I know that her and her husband do this, where it's like they'll come to the table and they'll say, I only have 10% in my toolbox, what do you got? But what I love about that, I'm so happy you brought this up, is that if they don't equate 100%, they're fine. And that's my biggest thing that I love like for clients to take away, oh, I got choos. Because you don't like if you cannot bring 100% to the table, one, you're not failing, but two, people are human. So if your partner, your treatment team, your significant other, your kid, whoever it is that is struggling, if they're saying I can only do this, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to fill the gap. Right? So, like if my client is saying to, or maybe not like clinician to client isn't the best example for that. But like, you know, if a parent is saying, like, okay, like I was also having a really tough day and my kid needed me to, you know, cook dinner, sit with them, give them praise, do X, Y, and Z, all these different things. My like as a clinician, I'm like, okay, but you're human too. So what are your capabilities in that moment? Because you also don't want to become so angry because you're extra tired, and then there's fights and resentment, and then recovery is 10 times harder than it needs to be for anybody. So I think, like to your point, Maggie, like 100%, it's you identifying, you come to that table saying, This is the percentage I have today, whether it is 100% or 10, 20, 30, 50, whatever, and also accepting what the other person on the other side also has. Cause maybe they can fit the other part of it to go 100%. But if they can't that day, everybody is allowed to be human.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Yeah. And also, too, if you're coming in and you're assessing and saying, I'm at 30% today, and you bring 30% then to the table, like that is a hundred percent. Like you brought a hundred percent of what you thought you were able to do. And I feel like that's a really important way of looking at it, too.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

I love that. There's a quote from a movie, and I've gotta butcher it, but it's like 60% of the time it works 100% of the time, or something like that. I also could have butchered that, but I feel like I've heard it. And I feel like it's I'm not a movie person. I have like five movies and that's about it. So this also I could have just completely made it up, but it makes sense in this context where it's like it's true, right? Like you when you put in the effort for whatever percentage that is, you're putting 100% of what you know you can do. And it's also important to acknowledge that you are able to have the insight, recognize it, vocalize it, and give to what it is that you have instead of like overly uh trying to extend when your cup isn't full. Because we can't also pour from an empty cup. Love that one.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

I know love that one.

What Full Recovery Can Mean

SPEAKER_01 30:34

So one last question for you. If someone is listening and they feel like they don't know if recovery, like true recovery exists, or they don't know if recovery exists for them, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Well, first and foremost, I would say it is. Because I truly am a firm believer that everybody can recover. I think the my main question or my two main questions would be like, what does full recovery look like for you? And what makes you think that it's not for you? Because I think you have to, once again, right, you have to understand where the client's coming from. And sometimes people like, when I say, okay, well, what does recovery look for like for you? They're like, I have no idea. So then that's even a conversation, right? To have of, well, if you don't know what full recovery looks like, why are you shutting yourself off? And why are you like cutting yourself short of having full recovery if you don't even have the picture? And is that why you feel like you can't recover fully because you don't even know what that life would look like, to then know what you're trying to achieve? So, like, that's like a whole conversation like you could have with a client. And I think it's important just to also understand that, like for the clinician, my definition of recovery and theirs might not also be the same. And sometimes that's uncomfortable for a provider to know that like that there is a difference, and then you have to again meet a client where they're at and allow the journey to be their journey. And obviously, that is to be taken, if like be taken while ensuring that they're safe, right? Because if a client is like, oh my behaviors, that's my recovery, it's like, no, honey, that's not. Like, you obviously have to make sure that you are that you are taking care of them, right? But my end goal and what a client's end goal might not look the same, and that's okay. So, what does that journey look like? I think change is really hard. Change is really scary. And so I, you know, supporting a client, and if a client is like, I just don't think I could ever recover, I would just want to like secure then in some way and foster that I hear you, I see you. I have a lot more faith than you might right now, and I and that's okay, but like how do we do this together without like while also not pushing my agenda?

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Right. Yeah, and I think this is such a you know, a good kind of segue into next week's episode, which is a harm reduction conversation with Johanna, because I feel like everything that you're describing there so brings in like the whole harm reduction approach, which we won't go into today because we have a whole episode about that next week.

Favorite Movies And Closing Message

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah. Okay, then last question, just since you you brought up movies, what's your favorite movie?

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Oh, Beauty and the Beast, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Because I'm like that's what I thought you were gonna say, but I wasn't sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

I guess because I'm five years old. However, I do have to say, my cousin Vinny and Moonstruck are probably two of my other favorite movies because they're just so good. And Marissa Tomei is one of my absolute favorite actresses, and her in my cousin Vinny is she's just a queen, a goddess. And I just like will always throw lines out there, like at family dinners and stuff. Like my biological clock is ticking like this, and at this rate, how you never get married. And I just love her, and I want to be her. I do, I love them. My mom's probably laughing in the other room hearing me think about this right now because I love Marissa Tomei in that movie.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

I don't know who that is, and I have never seen the only movie out of those three I've seen is Beauty. You never seen my cousin Vinny. No, and I just looked her up and I don't know who this actress is. I've never seen her in my whole life. Sorry. I'm so upset right now.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

But that's fine. I'm gonna force you to watch it.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

And I don't think I just reading the description of it, I can't watch this. I can't watch, I can't watch things that I think are gonna be scary, and this looks kind of scary.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Oh no, there's nothing scary about it.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Are you sure?

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Pinky promised because I can't do horror. Take me, I can't, nope, can't do it. I can't do horror. You don't see any of the you don't see anything. It's all of the stuff that happens in the courtroom. It's just about Vinny and how he like it took him six times to pass the bar, and he's like a real Italian New Yorker who literally just doesn't know what to do with himself, and how he's an attorney, but he's like not a very good one.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

All right, I'm not making a promise, but I'll I'll consider it.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

That's fine, that's fine. I'll just send you clips of my favorite parts, and then that's all you have to know. That's it. Oh, I love this so much. What's your favorite movie? The Parent Trap. No wonder you love my Oreos and peanut butter sandwich.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Yes, yeah. I love The Parent Trap. That's my my forever favorite movie, the Lindsay Lohan one. Oh, of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

We should learn that handshake and make it our handshake.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Yeah. I used to know it when I was a kid. I don't know it anymore. Same. Yeah. Could not tell you. Love that. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you everybody for listening. And make sure you tune in next week for an interview with Johanna again about harm reduction, kind of going off of this topic. And as always, we will catch you back here on the next one.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Thanks, guys. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Nourish and Empower Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

We hope this episode helped you redefine, reclaim, and restore what health means to you.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

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