Reflections on the First Year of Podcasting

In this special edition of the Awakening Doctor podcast, join host Dr. Maria Christodoulou and producer Amy Kaye, as we reflect on the podcast journey of 2023. 

With more than 1200 downloads, 8 episodes, and listeners in over 30 countries and 137 cities around the world, we are grateful for the meaningful connections we have forged and the budding community we are building. Each episode has provided us an opportunity to weave our love of storytelling into a transformative experience of authenticity, vulnerability, and shared humanity.

As this inaugural year draws to a close, we delve into our motivation for starting the podcast, explore the evolution of its unfolding, and reveal some of the struggles and triumphs we've encountered along the way. Join us as we celebrate the milestones we've achieved and articulate our hopes for what the year ahead may hold.  

Chapters

• 0:00 Reflections on the Awakening Doctor Podcast
• 3:18 Podcasting as a New Creative Venture
• 12:40 Podcast Impact and Growth
• 24:24 Reflections on Podcasting and Personal Growth
• 33:21 Reflections on Starting a Podcast

Transcript

Amy Kaye: 0:00

I never thought, having conversations with people in the medical field, that I'd feel an affinity to them. I just thought I was going to be sitting back going, Oh, look at all these very smart people that are very good at the things that I'm not very good at. They're brilliant at math, science and biology. Not my forte at all. And instead, kind of felt, oh, there's a commonality here and struggling, with very similar kind of things.

Maria Christodoulou: 0:25

With being human.

Amy Kaye: 0:00

With being human, exactly.

 Maria Christodoulou: 

And to be fair to my audience and my guests, I do think that we're a self-selected bunch. I think that the kind of person who would seek out coaching... That in and of itself says something about who they are, and certainly, I'm choosing people at the moment that I know and have an affinity to, and because I know their stories. I know that there's something powerful in the story, but it's also a reflection of the things I value. I value relationship. I value vulnerability. I value people who are passionate about what they do. So it may not be a 100% accurate representation of the profession as a whole, but I do think it shows a side of the profession that is seldom seen, and that's what I was hoping to do with this podcast. That was my wish.

 Welcome, I'm Dr Maria Christodoulou, and this is the Awakening Doctor podcast, a space where we discover the personal stories of those who work in the medical and health professions. Join me as I explore the hopes, the fears, the aspirations and the real-life challenges of those who carry the title, responsibility and privilege of being a doctor. 

 In the room today is Amy Kaye, writer and narrative coach, who is also producer and editor of the Awakening Doctor podcast.

 I'd really like for us to spend some time reflecting on the year and where we started and what we were hoping for when we began this journey, and to talk a little bit about how far we've come and what we've learned, and what we're still learning and what we're hoping we might accomplish for next year. It feels like this is a good time of the year to just pause and reflect on all of those things, and I guess I'm curious to hear your side of the story too, in the sense of, what did you think we were going to do when we started, and how has it been for you to be involved with this project?

Amy Kaye: 2:20

Well, maybe we should start with how the podcast came about. So, how did the podcast come about?

 Maria Christodoulou: 2:25

I was trying to remember last night, when I met you, when I did the writing course with you, because that's how it began. I signed up for your Writing Scared course, and I remember signing up for that because I knew I wanted to write. I knew that I had stories I wanted to share. I'd had so many conversations with colleagues that felt to me like they revealed a different side of medicine and I felt for a very long time that there's a book I need to write. But I wasn't able to write and in fact, even just writing the copy for my website a year or two ago was an arduous task. And then we met on the course, which I think was really valuable for me, and by the time it was done I knew that I wanted you to support me to keep writing. And then we did a couple of one-on-one sessions and I actually distinctly remember sitting at my desk… We had a Zoom conversation one of our sessions, and I said I'm not writing. And you said well, why don't you just do a podcast? And my first thought was that would be a great idea. But oh god, another whole new learning curve. I’m going to have to learn about podcasting and who's going to edit... And then you said, I can do all of that. And I was like, what? Because I had no idea what your background was.

Amy Kaye: 3:42

I run Write On, which is therapeutic writing to help people tell their stories and express themselves. But my background is in documentary making for film and radio, and I did that quite a long time ago. I used to work in radio, I used to work in film. I've done a lot of different things, but it's always come back to storytelling for me, and it's always been about other people's stories, helping other people tell their stories. So for me, you were telling me about all these people that you'd spoken to and you'd spoken to hundreds of people, if not thousands of people and the fact that you'd archived all these sessions and you had all these details and you could remember so many things, and the fact that you weren't particularly enthusiastic about writing. You were really not enjoying the writing process, and for me it's, well, if you don't want to write, then you shouldn't write. I'm not going to push you to do something you don't want to do. You were telling me about all these people that you had spoken to, and it seemed like you really enjoyed speaking to people. So my thought, having studied documentary making, was well, why don't you make a podcast? Not really thinking that I was going to be involved in any way. And then you were like, oh, but how am I going to do a podcast? And then I was like, well, I’ll just do it. But not again, not really thinking it was going to turn into anything. Because I think, especially in Cape Town, people talk a lot of things and they talk about oh, let's do a podcast and let's meet for coffee and let's do a project, and then it never turns into anything. So I very flippantly said oh, I’ll produce and edit the podcast, why not?

Maria Christodoulou: 5:06

Did you think it would be like my writing? It would just not happen?

Amy Kaye: 5:09

Not at all, not at all. I just I don't even. It just sounded like such an interesting thing and I'm always keen to hear people's stories. I mean, that's why I do the work that I do. I love hearing people's stories. I don't really love radio anymore because radio has changed so much, but I remember when I was studying in Dublin I would always listen to BBC Radio and RTÉ, which is very much talk radio. It was podcasting before it was podcasting. You'd listen to these little documentaries and have insights into people's lives from around the world. And radio is the theatre of the mind. It's so visceral and it's such an amazing format for storytelling because take away the visual, you have to rely on a completely different way of storytelling. And I also didn't really think that you would say yes. I think I said it like, oh, I'll do it and let's see where it goes, and here we are.

Maria Christodoulou: 5:56

And here we are. I think pretty soon after that we scheduled our first conversation.

Amy Kaye: 6:01

Yes, well, I discovered, Maria, that you really have your act together and that you know, I didn't know you were... I mean, obviously, you're professional and everything. We didn't know each other very well at that point, but you were like, right, so when are we doing the podcast, and when are the dates and when are the thing, and then you'd organised everything. And I went, this is perfect, because the last thing I want to do is be running after somebody going, do you want to do the podcast? Who are you going to speak to? You already kind of started lining everything up, and that's great, because a lot of the time when people want to do creative things or start projects, then they suddenly become very apathetic or they get scared.

Maria Christodoulou: 6:38

Well, for me, I think there was an element of… There was something about the suggestion, like, I'd never considered doing a podcast, but when you said it, it resonated. It made sense. My work is so much about conversations and about creating spaces for people to share their stories, and the motivation to write was about I've been taking those stories in for many, many, many years and holding them confidential, and I wondered how it would feel to create a space for other people to hear some of those stories, because they are such profound stories most of the time.

 And I think there was something really beautiful in the idea that… one, I know you had created, certainly for me, even in the short time we knew each other, a space where I could get real and vulnerable about my personal story in the writing in a group, and the idea that I could actually hand over some of the technical side of doing this project and really just immerse myself in having conversations with people that I like, was quite liberating actually. I liked that idea and what I've really enjoyed about how I've gone about this, which is new for me in terms of creativity, is really just letting it unfold. I don't always know in advance who I'm going to speak to and like an email will arrive and I'll go oh yeah, that's who I want on my podcast next, and I've just been so grateful that people have been so willing to share their stories and some of our episodes, people have got really vulnerable in the sharing, and each episode… I remember coming out of the first conversation we had with Rod. People probably won't know that we recorded the first conversation with Rod before we released that episode and then we did a couple of others and decided to release the one with Keith first. But I remember coming away from both of those, Rod’s in November last year, and Keith's in January and going, yes, I want to do more of this. I want to do lots of this.

Maria Christodoulou: 8:24

I just love that people could tell their stories in that way. It's been quite amazing how it's all unfolded and the organic nature of it really speaks to me. It's been a lovely creative project and it speaks to my strengths on many different levels. You know, on the one hand it's the creating spaces for the conversations, but on the other, it's the structure and setting things up and getting people to come along and.. and it's also been a reminder of, I have built long-term connections over many years with people who trust and respect me enough to want to be a part of this and give up their time to come and talk to us, and it's been great. It's also been lovely to have your feedback in the conversations. Most of you don't know, but at the end of every conversation, pretty much until now, Amy has always gone, wow, that was amazing, like mind blown, and then sometimes I'm like looking at you and thinking, really? I have conversations like this all the time. And for you?

 Amy Kaye: 9:30

I just love how surprised I am after every conversation. I just love how… I mean, I think I mentioned it in Irene's conversation, if I can remember correctly. How I consider myself a cynical realist and I think it is one of the… Just, the world that we live in is so curated now. It's curated and highly edited and filtered and everything you see on social media is not authentic. It's been very planned and thought out. I really don't believe that you can do anything spontaneously when there's a camera there, knowing that the camera is there. It's all fake.

Maria Christodoulou: 10:04

Well, first, if the camera had to be set up. 

Amy Kaye: 10:10

Exactly, the camera to be set up for spontaneous reaction. And with reality TV and all of this and now with everybody and their dog having a social media account, I think it's more difficult now to get people to open up and be authentic, and that's why I love the medium of the podcast. Specifically because there is no camera. And I really believe, having done documentary films and done talk radio, there is a huge difference between when a camera is turned on somebody and when there is no camera in the room. People just express themselves very differently and the minute the camera goes on, whether it's on your phone or whether it's a highly technical camera crew sitting there, the mask goes on. The minute you know you're being watched, people just… those walls go up. When there's nobody watching you other than the other person in the room, people get a lot more real and you do forget that you're being recorded, which is always a little bit interesting.

 I love how surprised I am with every conversation. I love how I have absolutely no idea where the conversations are going to go. I pretty much don't know who the guests are. I mean, even if you give me their name, I don't do a Google search. I don't want to know who we're talking to, because it's so much more fresh. I kind of feel like, this format specifically, I've always loved that idea of you're sitting next to a stranger and then you tell them all your deep, dark secrets and then you never see them again. Strangers can be more open and honest with each other because you can be real with that person and knowing that the two ships have passed in the night and are never going to pass again.

Maria Christodoulou: 11:38

There’s nothing at stake.

Amy Kaye: 11:39

There's nothing at stake, exactly. I love how I feel like we've grown through the process as well. I mean, I feel like, even initially, when we first started and you were like, well, if you want to add in your feedback or you want to say anything, jump in whenever. I was like, no, no, I'm the producer and the editor. I'll just be the quiet one sitting there. I'll just record everything. I'll do everything technical. And then it felt a bit strange that I wasn't saying anything, because I had questions and we were having a conversation and it did feel a bit odd me just sitting there. Then I felt like the camera crew kind of well, here I am. We're ready to record. It's been very interesting and, like you said, every time we do one, I'm like oh we've got to do more. We've got to do more. And then, even though the conversations are mind-blowing, the most mind-blowing thing is, we'll record it beforehand and then I will edit it and when we have a few of them stacked in a row, I will go back to podcasts for a few months previously and then I listen to the podcast and I'm going wait, we spoke about what and we spoke about that, and I said that and you said that. There are moments and details that come through, because if you listen to a podcast, from an editing point of view, it's very different to just having a conversation. Or, when I'm recording, I'm listening in one way and when I'm editing, I'm listening in a different way, and re-listening to those conversations and picking up on stuff that I didn't pick up on the day. Having a conversation for the first time face to face, you're just trying to take in the information and you're trying to get your bearing. But when you're listening to it a second time, you're not in the conversation anymore, so you're accessing different levels. So that's also been fascinating and would I have said something different, with the insight now. So that's been pretty cool. It's incredibly layered and it keeps kind of, like you said, it keeps unfolding, which I like.

Maria Christodoulou: 13:22

Yeah. I think the other thing that's been good for me is the really just letting go, you know. In the past, my perfectionism would have wanted to be involved in every detail, and one of the decisions I made consciously at the beginning was to hand over the recording and trust you to do your thing with it. And I also then listen to the final version and I can't remember what else we talked about that you've cut out. So it feels like you've done a really great job of summarizing without losing the essence of the conversations. I mean, some of our conversations were like three hours long and you've narrowed them down to maybe an hour, hour and a half, and I'm sometimes left wondering what did we talk about for three hours? So that's also been really good for me, surrendering to this process and just let it happen organically. And I think then there's also been the excitement of people's response to the podcast. I had not a lot, but the little bit of direct feedback that I've received has been very positive and very encouraging, and certainly quite a few colleagues coming back to say how necessary this platform is, how needed it is for people to be able to tell these stories in a safe space, and I think that's what I was feeling all along. So it's been really great that I've been able to create that for people and I have to watch, I guess, the playful part of me that kind of knows a lot of interesting and eccentric and diverse people and wants to just make it all about the outliers because I’ve often felt like an outlier. And then I see the struggle between that part of me and the other part that goes, even within mainstream medicine there's a lot of really powerful and interesting stories to tell.

 I feel quite willing to let it have its own life, this podcast. Almost as though I'm just a conduit for these conversations to happen. We provide the structure and the space. I trust my instincts about who to invite and then we see where it goes. And certainly until now, and anyone who's listened to the episodes will know, that the guests have all been people that I know and, for the most part, have coached. So I have a relationship with them. I think there was certainly an initial thing of, I can showcase my work, my coaching, and I can get people to talk about the benefit of coaching. But I also think that there's something about the kind of storytelling that becomes possible when there is a pre-existing relationship of trust and safety and rapport, and I do think that some of our guests have gone to really vulnerable places because they trust me, and that means a hell of a lot to me. It's been really powerful actually.

Amy Kaye: 16:05

Something you touched on now. I just love that idea of letting the podcast have a life of its own. I just love the idea of any art form, but specifically storytelling, is not knowing where it's going to end up and not knowing who is going to hear this podcast. We were actually looking at the statistics earlier and seeing that the podcast has been listened to in 26 countries around the world in only seven episodes, which is not very long at all, and that our top three cities are, I think, Cape Town, Pretoria and Los Angeles, which makes absolutely no sense, but hey. Hello La, whoever’s listening!

 Maria Christodoulou: 

Thank you for listening.

 Amy Kaye: 

Thank you for listening Los Angeles. It’s wonderful. I just, I love that idea of somebody is driving in their car or is doing the dishes or is - wherever they are - is listening to this podcast and is somehow connecting or resonating or having that aha moment where they're going wow, it's not just me. I thought I was the only one feeling these things. So, to those of you who are listening, we would love to hear from you. We would love it if you contacted us via email or via social media. Let us know where you are listening from, what you've loved about these episodes, who stood out for you, what's resonated for you. We would really like to make that real connection and, who knows, maybe we'll speak to you at some point. If you are an awakening doctor somewhere in the world, we can set up a Zoom call in 2024 and who knows who we're going to speak to next. So, please, if you're listening and you want to speak to us, we are very open to speaking to you.

Maria Christodoulou: 17:42

Absolutely. I find it so beautiful to have my mother in her small village in Cyprus eagerly waiting for the next episode. For a while I thought maybe she'd be the only one who would listen, but the things that she said about it and what she's learned from listening to these conversations, and my friend in Australia that I haven't seen for many years sends me a private message to say how touched she was by an episode, or receiving a WhatsApp or an email or… I think we never really know how we touch people's lives with what we do in the world. And again, for me there's something also about the willingness to put yourself out there, and I thought long and hard about that, certainly after we started getting some feedback along the way. And, as one does, when you put yourself out there, not everybody's going to like what you do and people will have their criticisms and their comments. You know, for a time I was like, do I really want to do this? Do I really want to put myself out there? And then, yes, I do actually. I've spent years gathering this kind of experience and I feel like I have a voice and I have a platform and I can still be behind the scenes because I'm telling the stories through other people's stories, but the stories are universal. They're not unique to one individual.

Amy Kaye: 18:52

I think you'll be telling more of your story in 2024. But maybe me too, who knows? But I think this has been a learning journey and trying to figure out how much of us comes in and people have questions or suggestions or anything like that. We are open to it. I would love this to be more kind of a conversation with both the listeners and the people that we're speaking to our guests. Not just whoever’s in the room on the day. I think that's the whole idea, to awaken people, and whether they are doctors or whether they are not doctors.

Maria Christodoulou: 19:19

We’ve already touched on it, but I think we've done really well this year, Amy.

Amy Kaye: 19:23

Not too shabby, considering it was a flippant suggestion on my part. I just can't believe that it's just over a year now. We recorded the first episode in November of 2022. Now it's December 2023 and it feels like that was two, three years ago. It has been a very strange year and I think I say that every year since the pandemic now, but it feels like we've covered so much and also I think, because, even though we haven't had hundreds of conversations, we've dived so deep so quickly with people and, like you said, you have that ability because you know these people and they trust you. If they didn't trust you they wouldn't go there.

 Maria Christodoulou: 

Exactly.

 Amy Kaye: 

It's not like anybody is prepped beforehand, and these are the questions we're going to ask you and this is where we're going to go, and even though it is edited, what comes up is what you get, and it's been amazing. I mean, I'm effectively the stranger in the room and here I am sitting and now tell me your trauma, tell me your deepest darkest secret. Like I said, I've been completely surprised and it's been wonderful to again have those authentic, vulnerable moments, because it's not an everyday thing.

Maria Christodoulou: 20:30

So, when you think back to our conversations we met with Rod, we met with Keith, we met with Liana, Lisa, Irene, Patrick and Sheron, what surprises you or what stood out for you about all those conversations?

Amy Kaye: 20:46

Hmm, I'm a little bit embarrassed to say that I had prejudice about doctors. I think I had an idea in my head of who a doctor was, what kind of personality people who study medicine. I don't think people appreciate doctors for how hard that job is. They learn the training. It's not like you do the training and then that's it. It's relentless. The fact that you survive the training and then have to go on and try and help people on a daily basis. It really is a calling, I think. More than anything, I think you really have to have a feeling for people, have a feeling to heal people.

 I've definitely encountered people in the medical world who should not be in the medical world and do not have a calling and do not even like people, let alone should not be trying to help people, heal people, and are doing it from an egotistical place or because they got the right marks, or because everybody expected them to, and they’re not doing it because they have a feeling for it. This is what we do or this is who my family is. I think, with medical school especially, you don't have time to do any introspection. You spend your whole life at school trying to get the top marks to get into the right university and then you don't have time to take a gap year. You go straight into university because you know you've got seven years to get through and then you're barely an adult. When do you have time to stop and go, Who am I? What do I want? What do I feel? What do I need? And yet people's lives are in your hands. And I've had a few friends also, who were in the medical field, and I would ask them, so what are you doing or what's it like? And it was always quite negative and what would happen is they'd go well, I'm here now, so I might as well just keep specializing and studying. They didn't actually want to be a doctor, but I've spent all this money and time, so what else am I supposed to do? But you can see their hearts not in it, which is really sad, because you want somebody who really loves and is passionate about what they're doing.

 So then, when we have these conversations with people who love and are passionate about what they're doing, it's a reminder of OK, these are the doctors that have awakened, that are self aware, that know what their limits are, that know where their strengths and their weaknesses lie. As opposed to well, this is the system and I'm just going to be a good employee or good whatever. My perception has definitely changed. I feel a lot more empathy for anybody that works in medicine. I guess, for me personally, I think we had a conversation about this where I realized I'm a healer. I haven't studied medicine but I'm a healer and it's what I do. I heal through storytelling. I mean, I've always said my writing workshops and courses, it's writing therapy, and I've always been a little bit insecure about the fact I'm not a doctor in writing therapy, so I can't call it that, but it's still therapeutic and it's more based on life experience and intuition and research and years and years of studying this stuff.

 But I'm somebody who's never really felt connected to any sort of group or tribe and yet, even though I've not been involved in medicine at all other than going to a lot of medical experts because of my own stuff, I feel connected in that healing world. So whether you are a surgeon or whether you are a coach or whether you are a nurse or whether you are a doctor, it's all the same thing. It's all this feeling to help people, to heal people, in whatever capacity you do that. So that was surprising. I never thought, having conversations with people in the medical field, that I'd feel an affinity to them. I just thought I was going to be sitting back going. Oh, look at all these very smart people that are very good at the things that I'm not very good at. They're brilliant at math, science and biology. Not my forte at all. And instead, kind of felt oh, there's a commonality here and struggling with very similar kind of things.

 Maria Christodoulou: 

With being human.

 Amy Kaye: 

With being human, exactly.

Maria Christodoulou: 24:59

And to be fair to my audience and my guests, I do think that we're a self-selected bunch. I think that the kind of person who would seek out coaching… That, in and of itself, says something about who they are. And certainly, I'm choosing people, at the moment, that I know and have an affinity to. And because I know their stories, I know that there's something powerful in the story, but it's also a reflection of the things I value. I value relationship. I value vulnerability. I value people who are passionate about what they do. So, it may not be a 100% accurate representation of the profession as a whole, but I do think it shows a side of the profession that is seldom seen, and that's what I was hoping to do with this podcast. That was my wish because, as a doctor myself, I've often struggled with the idea people have about who I am, or the minute they find out that I'm a doctor, their relationship to me changes.

It started early in medical school, I think in my very first year at university, we’d go out to socials in Stellenbosch and they'd ask me what I was studying and I'd say medicine. My friends and I learned very quickly to lie and to say something else, because immediately, it would be like, “O, jy’s een van die slim meisies”. (Oh, you’re one of the clever girls). Later, I'd facilitate workshops and things and at mealtimes everybody would watch to see if I had… I'm the integrative medicine expert, am I eating junk or am I eating chocolate? Or if I say I'm struggling or I have depression or I'm burnt out, there’s confusion and, why? How? So, I often felt that I had to hide in order to maintain other people's facade of who I was supposed to be.

So, getting to a place where I can actually just talk quite openly about who I am and what I believe and what I've been through, feels like quite an important milestone. In a way, maybe the podcast represents a… You can do it through other people's stories and every now and again throw in my little bit, which appeals to the introvert in me. But I have also been surprised by how willing my colleagues and friends and guests have been to share their stories and how… I think initially I thought, okay, so I know these people, I'm going to just go in there, we're going to talk about what they've shared with me and we're going to tell their story and how moved I've been in each encounter and I've learned something new about each guest in every conversation and also, kind of, the vulnerability of putting myself out there in this sort of forum and the naive sort of excitement. Some of the feedback we've got, which all feels constructive, but it's been hard to take in at times. Things like, when we had the conversation with Rod, we were speaking about traditional healers, and in my mind, I had selected Rod because he kind of represented a bridge between Western medicine and traditional African medicine. An aspect of medicine that is marginalized by the mainstream. And then the feedback we received that actually we didn't talk about the colonizing of Traditional African Medicine and here was a white man, sangoma, whose training was somewhat unconventional, talking about what it was like, and then the race stuff came in in a different way. So I think I was a little naive in how the intersectionality of race, gender, diversity, all of these other things would come into the conversation. I thought, well, we could just tell doctors stories, but you can never tell a story without telling a whole lot of different stories. So there were times, where it was, oh, gosh. So how do we keep everybody happy?

Amy Kaye: 

You don't.

Maria Christodoulou: 

Well, that's been the learning. There were times where I’d get feedback that, oh, we want to hear more of your story, tell us more of your story. And then the feedback that said well, we felt like your story intervened too much in the guest’s story and you kept telling your things and maybe you should have given the guest more space, and whew. And it was really helpful when you said, remember Brené Brown's thing about, if you're not in the arena, keep quiet.

Amy Kaye: 28:39

Mmm hmm. Well, I think it's also, everybody has an opinion and it's very easy to say, well, if I had edited it, and it’s like, well, you’re welcome to start your own podcast. Go for it. If you want to talk about that particular subject, with those particular kinds of people. Go for it. This is what we're trying to do and I think podcasting is an art form. It is storytelling. And I think great art is supposed to get a reaction. It's not going to all be positive, and I think once people start reacting, however they're reacting, the reaction is a good thing. It means that people are feeling things, and if people are feeling things, it means that something is being, for lack of a better word, triggered, and it's making them think and feel very deeply, which I think is a positive thing. Uncomfortable, and might bruise the ego a little bit. Both of us are healers, so we want everybody to be happy and we don't want to offend anybody and we don't want anybody to feel like, oh, we said the wrong thing and did the wrong thing.

 But I think also, when it comes to people telling their stories, which is what all the guests have been doing, the truth is their truth. So for people to come and then say, oh well, you should have done this or you should have said that. Well, it's not your story to tell, it's their story and I think owning your story is an incredibly brave thing to do. So to come tell your story openly and honestly, in this format, knowing that people are going to potentially go, how dare you? How could you say that? Or, you're so embarrassing. I'm sure there are those conversations going on as well that we have no idea about. Where they're getting feedback from friends and family. Everybody's got an opinion. Again, with the Brené Brown thing. If it's so easy, go do it.

Maria Christodoulou: 30:15

Initially, my ego was a little shaken and then there was a moment of well, hang on. This is exactly what you wanted the podcast to achieve, in the sense of my own humanity. I'm not perfect. I do my best to be a conscious person and certainly not going to please everybody. Again, coming to a place of well, that's also okay. If people think I'm not perfect or that I'm messed up, that's the whole point of the podcast. I, too, mess up and I've fought a long time within myself to be okay with the fact that I'm not perfect and that I mess up, and so to continue with the podcast actually feels quite important and to be imperfectly imperfect in the doing of it, because I also don't want the conversations to be scripted and I don't want to give guests the questions up front. And sometimes after our conversations I will go like, why did I say that in that moment? Or when I listen again, I'm thinking, god, why did you jump to that from there? What made you ask that question after they said that? And I can't always tell you why, so I also have to trust that there's something happening in the room in the moment that's directing the flow of the conversation and that what needs to be said needs to be said. And what's also been interesting is that, even though we've allowed some of the conversations to go on quite long, there does come a point where it feels like it's done.

 Amy Kaye: 

Yes.

 Maria Christodoulou: 

What needed to be said has been said and we can stop. There's always more that could be said, but we can stop there. On the whole, I'm really glad we've done this and I'm quite excited about what the next year will bring and, much like you said, Amy, I really invite people to connect and let us know what you want more of and what it's been like for you to engage if you have been listening. We've made seven podcasts so far. Eight if you count the one we had to scrap because of the audio quality.

Amy Kaye: 32:01

There are a lot of mistakes. It's very, very imperfect.

Maria Christodoulou: 32:04

In fact, we haven't even touched on all the dilemmas of getting the right space and the sound and the recording equipment and having to move locations because of noise and vacuum cleaners. What a journey. But at this stage, in my mind, we are aiming to get to podcast number 20. That's the first big milestone. And then let's see where it goes.

Amy Kaye: 32:33

So anybody that's listening to this that has a feeling to start their own podcast, what advice would you give them, Maria?

Maria Christodoulou: 32:43

Find an Amy. Find someone to help with the technical stuff, because I think a mistake I've made in the past when starting something new is feeling like I needed to learn all the different parts so that I could do it. And obviously collaboration is important, but there's been something quite organic in this collaboration that I've loved, and having someone take care of the bits that I don't know how to do has been great. It's kind of really freed me up to think about who I want to talk to and where I want to go with this, which has been lovely.

It would be nice to have a sponsor of some sorts or someone to cover the costs, because those are more than I anticipated, so that would be quite nice. But for the most part, just do it. Schedule the first conversation. Use your phone to record it. See where it goes, put it out there, take the risk. I'm not sorry that we've done that. It feels like a lot of things have fallen into place for me and it has also helped me grow my coaching business because people who have heard about the podcast or have heard who some of my guests on the podcast were, have been more inclined to reach out. And also, I think it's given people who didn't know me at all an opportunity to engage with me indirectly and get a sense of how I am and who I am, so that makes them feel safer about reaching out.

So in that sense it's been really great, and each and every one of our guests has in some way or another come back to say that in some way they were changed by the conversation. I'm not going to remember all the examples now, but if I think about Lisa going back and finishing a piece of art that she hadn't been able to finish for a couple of years and Irene being inspired to do the same. Keith sharing his episode with so many of his colleagues that his episode has 500 and something downloads. I've had feedback from others who would say things like, gosh, you know, I've known Keith for 20 years and I learned things about him in this podcast that I didn't know. So in many ways it feels like it's healing work for me, for my guests, for you and, hopefully, for our listeners.

So if you're thinking of starting a podcast, reach out to Amy and go for it. What do you have to lose? A little bit of ego bruising here and there, but also lots of affirmation and hope. I think that's a word that's also been relevant to most of our conversations. I leave them feeling hopeful about humanity and about the people that we've talked to, what they are doing in the world.

Amy Kaye: 35:09

It makes me feel a little less cynical, actually. A little safer knowing that these people are in the world doing the work that they're doing. Knowing that if you had a problem with this illness or whatever it is, that’s somebody you could call or they would suggest somebody that you could call if they can't help you directly. Just knowing that there are people that care this deeply, working in these fields. It's nice to know that they're out there doing their thing and that we could be a form of support to them in some way. I just love the ripple effect. You just don't know what's, what's going to come of it, which is exciting.

Maria Christodoulou: 35:45

Is there anything you would do differently? Knowing what we know now, is there anything you would change?

Amy Kaye: 35:48

Ideally, find a soundproof studio. If anybody knows of one in Cape Town… A soundproof studio…

Maria Christodoulou: 

Because the podcast studios are not all soundproof.

Amy Kaye: 

We've hired different studios and we have yet to find a soundproof studio that is podcast friendly. Find one space that we could permanently do this from, that would be amazing. Other than that, I'm kind of happy with everything so far. I'm proud of the work that we've done. I don't think that I would have edited in a completely different way, or… I think as long as we're still having our minds blown at the end of every conversation, that's a good sign. I think if it ever gets to a point where I'm left going, ugh, I've got to do another podcast this month, the time is done. But I'm actually really happy with the way it's gone, because it is real and because it is authentic and because it is whatever happens in the moment happens. Because none of it's scripted, you can't redo it. It's art. It's what happened on the night. It’s a performance in a way. You get what you get.

I mean, this is the documentary maker in me, but I like the fact that we have recorded moments in time that will never be able to be recaptured in the exact same way. I mean, even… We have had an episode where, because of sound issues, we've had to scrap it and we're going to be redoing the episode next month actually. It's going to be very interesting doing the conversation a second time around, because how are we going to keep it fresh? Because I know what I've said previously. I feel it's very inauthentic to act surprised when now I know the story.

Maria Christodoulou: 37:24

No, please don't. I want us to have the conversation as though it's a new conversation, which it will be a new conversation.

Amy Kaye: 37:30

Absolutely. That's why I think I don't ever want to know anything about the guests, because I want to be as surprised as I genuinely am when I find things out about these people Not knowing really much at all. So if I had to do it all over again, I don't think I'd do much differently other than make sure that the place that you’re in doesn’t have a lawnmower outside or motorbikes driving by or whatever it is that Cape Town has to offer. The list goes on. The amount of stuff that is actually going on in the world. And it's not even like we're on the street. You're in a soundproof studio and you still have somebody loudly talking about what they did on the weekend outside. No do-overs for me. What about you?

Maria Christodoulou: 38:12

No, I'm also really happy. I think the sound issue has been a stress with each episode. Will it be quiet, won't it? Even when we've spent money on podcast studios and then, as you say, we can hear the people talking outside. From a purely… not business perspective, but if I look at the stats and then I look at what the average podcast is doing, they're certainly putting out a lot more episodes than we’re doing. We could have done more, but I really like that we're only doing one a month. It feels spacious.

It feels like I've got time to kind of really enjoy it and it doesn't feel like it's this thing I have to do all the time. It feels like there's something leisurely about the pace. The only stress has been the audio. Can we get the audio quality right? And somebody said to me recently, well just buy the right equipment, and it's not even about the right equipment. It's about the space. What we haven't tried yet is sort of music recording studios, so that might be something to look at. 

I would do it again. I would maybe be less concerned about what people think, but I don't think that's possible. It's new and it's like putting your new creation out into the world and hoping everyone's going to think your baby's beautiful. But it feels like it's a platform that can grow and that we can grow, keep growing in it, and that's something that's important to me, and whilst people are still willing to talk to us, I'm excited to keep going.

Amy Kaye: 

Me too.

 Maria Christodoulou: 

Thank you, Amy. It's been quite a year. So, if we stay with the podcast, a question I always ask my clients at this time of year is, if you look back on this year what has the theme of 2023 been for you? And if we sort of narrow it to, what has the theme of working on this podcast been for you, what would you say?

Amy Kaye: 39:53

Hmm. Surprising connections. Making connections where I didn't think there would be connections. That's it. I think I'll leave it at that, and you?

Maria Christodoulou: 40:03

The word that popped into my head when I asked you was discovery, self-discovery and quite practical technical discovery, but also, I think I'm touched each time by the depth of the connections that I have with the people that we speak to. That's been really beautiful. So if a year from now we're sitting doing the same thing and I say, gosh, Amy, what was 2024 about, what do you want to say?

Amy Kaye: 40:24

Well, I'm so glad that we have a fully sponsored studio and we're being flown around the world to speak to medical experts on our private jet in business class.

Maria Christodoulou: 40:37

Okay, alright. Woah. Rein it in.

Amy Kaye: 40:39

One million downloads an episode. No, that's actually too much pressure to think of it. End of 2024, I hope that we've had more surprising, stimulating conversations. I'm looking forward to having my mind blown more, and the thing is, I don't even actually have any expectations. I haven't had any expectations. That's why it's been so mind blowing. Okay, to be honest, when the cynic comes out, then the cynic part of me, before we have the conversation, I go, I'm sure this will be fine and I'm sure this conversation will be fine. It's not going to be anything spectacular, it's just another person talking about their story, yeah, okay. And then at the end of it, I’m like what, what was that? What? It's so incredible and they were so good. Oh, I want more of that. So it's weird, because a lot of other situations in my life, I have really high standards and really high expectations and I'm left incredibly disappointed. And this has been the total opposite. I mean, Maria can't know that many fascinating, interesting people Come on, she's going to run out. There's going to come a point where you're going to talk to somebody and I'm going to go, eh, wasn’t that great.

Maria Christodoulou: 41:52

I'm sure that day is going to come, but I do know lots of interesting people.

Amy Kaye: 41:55

I actually don't think it will. I mean, that's also not giving credit to people. People are so fascinating if you just ask them the right questions and you really listen. That's what I love about this format. It's just you think you know someone and then you open a door that hasn't been opened and then suddenly you're down the rabbit hole going, wow, I didn't know that about you. I had no idea. So surprises, mind blown. Maybe we'll start getting messages from people in faraway lands. That could be very interesting. Maybe we'll have some more guests that you haven't actually coached or spoken to before. That would be great, because then you will just be as in the dark as I am.

Maria Christodoulou: 42:36

Right. That makes me nervous, I’ll be honest.

Amy Kaye: 42:36

I think that might be a good thing. Let's see what happens. What about you? At the end of 2024, what are you hoping for?

Maria Christodoulou: 42:43

I want to say that the foundations we've established this year, that we've really grounded those and been able to expand. That it's grown, that we've consistently been able to bring out an episode, that our audience has grown, that there is more interaction with our audience, that I'm still enjoying it as much as I was, or am. That it still surprises me and that it still feels fresh and relevant, and that it still feels like it's all unfolding quite organically, without having to force things. Obviously there's been times where deadlines and getting the social media stuff ready and things like that, but for the most part there's been a grace and an ease about how this has happened. So this year has been about discovery, I'd like next year to be about expansion. 

 Amy Kaye: 

Sounds good to me. 

 Maria Christodoulou: 

Me too. I look forward to working with you.

Amy Kaye: 43:31

Me too. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for trusting me when I said, well, why don't you make a podcast? And I offered to do it and you went… I think it was the next week that you said, okay, so when is this happening? We both kind of just dove into the deep end. Thank you for trusting me with the episodes and trusting that I could edit them and produce them and record them, and that you've been happy with what I've done and thank you for opening up this world that I had no access to before. It's been so cool. It's not anything I know anything about and it's so fascinating, and I love being a little fly on the wall. I suppose, like some of the listeners to, where - that's the beauty of podcasting -  you get access to people and stories you wouldn't normally have access to. So, to 2023. And thank you to all of our guests that we've spoken to. We really appreciate you all being so giving of your time and giving of your stories and your hearts and your minds, and I think the ripple effects go a lot further than you will ever know. And thank you to all the listeners. Thank you to everybody in all the 26 countries. It's wild that we have listeners all over the world. Even if you've just listened to one episode, I hope you got something out of it and thank you for connecting with us.

Maria Christodoulou: 44:44

You reminded me when you said we both dived in. I remember my motivation kind of being, who's going to listen? We’ll do one episode or two, see how it goes. The first few episodes we’ll maybe have one… my mother will listen. And then Keith shared his episode so broadly it has the most downloads. I think that's when it really sunk in that maybe the reach was going to be bigger than I thought, but then that was also exciting. I'm glad that we didn't know that when we started.

I am very grateful to our guests for the way they showed up and for telling their stories and for being willing to put themselves out there, and to all our listeners and to all those of you who have sent me WhatsApp messages, emails and Facebook messenger messages. Really grateful, really touched by your feedback and really grateful that you're making time to listen. And to all those people kind of scattered around the globe, the majority of our listeners are still in South Africa, but there are some countries that I don't even know where they are on the map and you guys have listened and so I'm very, very touched by that and it would be awesome to hear from you. So stay tuned and see where this journey takes us. Thank you, Amy. Thank you for suggesting this, thank you for diving in with me, for your skilful editing, for your authentic presence in the conversations. I think it was after Lisa's conversation, I got quite a few messages from Lisa to say her friends who were listening in were like, Amy's awesome, we want to hear more about Amy. Because you were just sort of spontaneous in the moment with your reaction. I think it was to her story about treating a gangster. It's been really great. It's been a real support to have you there. I think it's made it easier for me to be me in the space, that you've held the space in the way that you have, so I'm really grateful to you for that.

Amy Kaye: 46:31

Thank you. The Awakening Doctor podcast would not be anything without you, so thank you for taking the idea and running with it, and allowing so many people to tell their stories. It's very important. We need more of this definitely, so thank you.

Maria Christodoulou: 46:45

Thank you too. Onwards and upwards. to 2024.

Amy Kaye: 46:49

To 2024. Here we go.

Maria Christodoulou: 46:51

I'm Dr Maria Christodoulou and you've been listening to the Awakening Doctor podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with your friends, follow Awakening Doctor on Instagram, Facebook and Spotify, and go to Apple podcasts to subscribe, rate and give us a good review. Thank you so much for listening.