In this espisode we speak to Nat Duffus to find out the good and the bad about Biodiversity Net Gain which is a major driver of the UK's policy to improve the state of biodiversity whilst still allowing for development. Some of the things mentioned in this podcast include: Kidbrooke Village: https://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/news-and-insights/news-and-features/2020/kidbrooke-village-wins-attenborough-awards
Lye Valley http://www.friendsoflyevalley.org.uk/about/index.html
and of course the bombadier beetle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3sxJNt8CYw&ab_channel=BBCEarth
The Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is interested in promoting a wide variety of views and opinions on nature recovery from researchers and practitioners.
The views, opinions and positions expressed within this podcast are those of the speakers alone, they do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery, or its researchers.
The work of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is made possible thanks to the support of the Leverhulme Trust.
In this espisode we speak to Nat Duffus to find out the good and the bad about Biodiversity Net Gain which is a major driver of the UK's policy to improve the state of biodiversity whilst still allowing for development. Some of the things mentioned in this podcast include: Kidbrooke Village: https://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/news-and-insights/news-and-features/2020/kidbrooke-village-wins-attenborough-awards
Lye Valley http://www.friendsoflyevalley.org.uk/about/index.html
and of course the bombadier beetle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3sxJNt8CYw&ab_channel=BBCEarth
The Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is interested in promoting a wide variety of views and opinions on nature recovery from researchers and practitioners.
The views, opinions and positions expressed within this podcast are those of the speakers alone, they do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery, or its researchers.
The work of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is made possible thanks to the support of the Leverhulme Trust.
stephen thomas:
Welcome to the nature recovery podcast, we're going to take a closer look at some of the solutions to Hello, and thank you for downloading the nature recovery going to be learning about biodiversity net gain, with Nat just one of these things, especially if you're based in of like, it's kind of that situation for me where whether you forgot their name. And you kind of keep having a of too embarrassed to ask. So it was really awesome that I could knew there was some challenges with it, but now explains it in asking the questions, so you don't have to. Anyway, enough I'm joined by NAT dufus, who is a PhD student at the School of
Nat Duffus:
Nat. Hello, thank you for having me. Okay.
stephen thomas:
You want just tell us a bit about yourself
Nat Duffus:
Yeah, so I am primarily a conservation And I'd like them to stick around a bit longer. And kind of So how do we reconcile the need for affordable housing or down the road of biodiversity net gain, and how that's
stephen thomas:
Okay. So, I mean, you mentioned that kind of planning and housing. And obviously, it's a big part eliminate a bit kind of so what is what is biodiversity net
Nat Duffus:
Yeah, so biodiversity net gain has some biodiversity offsetting pilots to see how biodiversity Framework mentioned net gains and biodiversity, but nobody foot on the gas with biodiversity net gain. And from development in a way that leaves biodiversity in a measurably a measurably better state, so more biodiversity than before,
stephen thomas:
Okay. So on the surface, that sounds awesome. So how is the measure of B, biodiversity net gain? How is
Nat Duffus:
Yeah. So biodiversity is obviously an So measuring it is incredibly challenging. So England has a site we take into account the size, the location, the the condition? So is it a good condition, habitat, a poor worth? And then you project what it will look like in the future. look at the current biodiversity, and then the So that is a very rough proxy of biodiversity using habitat facet of biodiversity.
stephen thomas:
Yeah, I mean, there's sort of something there algorithm. It is a model that is approximate is never going to be net gain score high, but versie metric based on based on what research found any issues with that?
Nat Duffus:
Yeah, so this is the crazy thing, we have very little work coming from Oxford. So Isabel Hawkins his paper, which units that the biodiversity metric gives and species which been collecting invertebrate data, so beetles, butterflies, and see if there is a relationship there. And I think scoring system probably does give them the units that they and modify grasslands, they get very low units, but they can farm. And it appeared to be this quite sterile Wheatfield. But species. So one was the bombardier beetle, which is a mechanism, which now that I say it doesn't sound that
stephen thomas:
If you're into tech. That sounds awesome. Yeah,
Nat Duffus:
but the biodiversity metric, because that's a compensate for. So things like that, I think the metric is very estimating the biodiversity of some of these habitats. Yeah.
stephen thomas:
I mean, I come from a bit of a forestry ancient woodland, you know, and actually, if you look at them in of organic soil. But, you know, the seed layer is deep in the you would measure on the site, isn't there. And I guess there's if it hasn't been sprayed to an inch of its life, it could have obviously, it's not going to look as attractive score wise to that there seems to be a financial incentives from what I Because obviously, if you've got, if you say this site is in lower than if you've got a really high scoring, Fenland, offset it by building a building on it. And I don't know if I've system. But I mean, III, from what you've seen, Does, does ecologists that are out there doing the world and and is it paid to do this big is coming from housing developers who they financial point of view? Maybe not? I'm not trying to judge
Nat Duffus:
Yeah, so there are many brilliant ecologists who ethical holdfast. And what they think habitats value is, but biodiversity. And there are examples of kind of a biodiversity units and it's going to be too expensive. To you see the unit's kind of start to trickle down to a point where the the kind of standard. But it's very hard to know, we have There, I think less than a third of local planning authorities in consult on these plans. And to get somebody to thoroughly look that there will be more support for local planning authorities that it's not enough, and that monitoring and governance will developers to over promise, what they're going to do. So you practical? Is it feasible, you know, is are these large scale making sure that they they happen. And I think this is also So if they go above their 10%, they can then sell that. So the
stephen thomas:
Yeah, that's interesting. I guess, whenever really interesting to hear that I didn't know about that they a lot, and that's the same with carbon is whenever you have it actually a true measure? So we talked about, I guess, some know, creating, you know, wherever there is any kind of development seems like a really, really positive statement and process metric has worked really well, and create something it get improved over time? You know, in light of some of the ecologist. But yeah, to get back to that. So has it? Have you time?
Nat Duffus:
Yeah. So at its heart, absolutely. We need, we recovery as well. So finding a way to embed nature and nature so many ecologists who are working really hard on creating And with all the support possible, so that it does work. southeast London. And it is a wonderful, wonderful over 100% net gain, which is they wanted this to be like a they've got this wonderful landscape architect who's been that is a really amazing example of what like creativity can do I do wonder if every development will have the time, the
stephen thomas:
Yeah, no, I need to I need to look at that. But is, so there are good examples. And this kind of metric, the way
Nat Duffus:
Yeah, so we have seen some changes in the metric metric that is used from November between between now and So I am hopeful that work from the Agile initiative and other into something that functions better as a proxy for putting numbers on nature, those kind of things don't necessarily alongside the metric.
stephen thomas:
Yeah, but we might get higher scores for this, this is a meadow. This is a federal and it's brilliant, to looking at nature is everywhere. And actually, some from bng. And we kind of ask this question to lots of people recovery, what does that mean to you?
Nat Duffus:
Yeah, so I think what I think of nature recovery, all we have. And I think we need to kind of completely turn the nature for nature, recovery is about how can we actively benefits both our ourselves and our nature. Obviously, I love want like our kids and grandkids and their grandkids to play with think that's a really important way of getting people on board be lost. So I think it's really important just to start thinking
stephen thomas:
Yeah, you made me think there of the, it was an insects and worms in it, and one didn't. And basically, you know, those nutrients had been broken down and turned into the soil. of static and sterile and, and not moving. And I think that's a what you do, are you do you feel optimistic? Do you feel nature, and our ability to turn the car around, as you say?
Nat Duffus:
Yeah, so honestly, it's a bit of a pendulum, I kind decline, and the way we're treating the natural world, I academia, and being surrounded by so many people who are think, gives me so much optimism. So listening to to lot more confidence. Also, coming back to sites of nature Oxford is live Valley, which is a Cal carious fan. And is vision, they go out and they're trying to create and restore of their time to that are so passionate about seeing it work. things like that. So they spend a lot of time kind of thinking together to protect their local patch of nature, I think as well
stephen thomas:
Yeah, yeah, that's a great attitude. I were in place in Atlantic and then to two scrolls later, there we're all we're all in trouble.
Nat Duffus:
I have so much Arctic sea ice anxiety. Every palpitation. Yeah.
stephen thomas:
I mean, the the interesting thing I found speak aren't as humans as a species. It's just about kind of giving work. It's just what you say we really need to take our foot off thing that I love about nature recovery is, it doesn't often amazing things like valleys absolutely beautiful. And I love another thing for me is about the unless we get people into you're like, well, for housing development is better than a get people digging in it and seeing the worms that final question, then. Thank you so much for explaining Where are your favourite places of nature that you would escape
Nat Duffus:
Oh, that's a that's a really hard question anywhere brilliant coastal habitats there, especially the cliffs. puffins also seeing like things from the terrestrial side. So really, really brilliant. But I've also I also kind of have a visited, and they were just lovely places to be. And you is brilliant.
stephen thomas:
Great. And on that note, I think we should end thank you for all you're doing to promote and protect insects thank you so much again.
Nat Duffus:
Yeah, thank you so much. Great.
stephen thomas:
So that was this week's episode. I hope you any questions, thoughts, comments, or if you disagree week, we're going to be talking to Patrick Greenfield from The journalists this year about phantom carbon credits, exposing companies such as Disney and major corporations to to claim deeper, sometimes the truth is a bit murkier. But yeah, thanks so You've been listening to the Mater recovery podcast with me can, please consider leaving us a review, as it will really help you never know. You might get them interested in the wonderful for nature recovery, you can find us on Twitter at nature recovery.ox.ac.uk Thanks so much for listening