The Nature Recovery Podcast
The Nature Recovery Podcast looks at some of the major challenges we face to global biodiversity. It takes a look at the various ways we are trying to halt the decline in biodiversity and the challenges inherent in these approaches. We also talk to a number of leading figures in the field of Nature Recovery and find out more about their work.
The Nature Recovery Podcast
Who gets a say and who doesn't? with Dr Alix Dietzel and Dr. Caitlin Hafferty
In this episode Dr Alix Dietzel and Dr. Caitlin Hafferty discuss 'Just Transitions' and discuss different approaches to societal change whether it be decarbonization or recovering nature. If we only focus on the technical aspects we will eliminate the voices of those who are directly impacted. For change to be effective and purposeful, it's essential that people get a say and participate from every sector of society.
You can find out more about their work here:
https://www.bristol.ac.uk/people/person/Alix-Dietzel-de568c8f-8312-4465-a8e3-be4d44d607dc/
https://caitlinhafferty.co.uk/
And the papers and blog posts referenced are here
The Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is interested in promoting a wide variety of views and opinions on nature recovery from researchers and practitioners.
The views, opinions and positions expressed within this podcast are those of the speakers alone, they do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery, or its researchers.
The work of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is made possible thanks to the support of the Leverhulme Trust.
Welcome to the nature recovery podcast. We're going to take a closer look at some of the solutions to And we'll find out more about the people behind these ideas. Hello, and welcome to the nature coverage podcast with me, Steve
Caitlin Hafferty:Hi, Caitlin. I'm a postdoc in the Lincoln nature. And unfortunately, who doesn't as well. And we're here you tell us a bit about yourself? Yes, thank you both space, which is politics and sociology and non outerspace. Bristol, where I'm in charge of impact and innovation, kind of work? So you published a paper out as an accompanying blog post you sort of tell us a bit more about that, and what you worked And I used to just be interested in questions of like, much, and maybe you know how much climate finance we should including the UK, I've become more interested in this idea of climate change. But it's about much more, it's about kind of society. And beyond that, do it in a way that's fair for be involved in deciding what just transition might mean. And it in a way that's fair. And what does that just mean? So justice and participation and inclusion in environmental and initially, it was all about workers rights and unions. So it what rights do workers have, who suddenly are completely out of and bigger and bigger and started to encompass questions retrofit houses to have heat pumps, for example? Or how do city and another, and that just became bigger and bigger and the global scale at the local scale, and it's now a very kind of different ways to define it. For me, you know, it's all about focus on decision making. So it's not like you define just that it's the kind of process where you check in with the off, and then run with it. So for me, I really just tradition transition. Yeah, I think that's a really important point that I just transitions just being used as a checkbox without any real making and evaluate to actually cause change. The kind of going about inclusion and diversity in the environment sector. So for also who gets to speak? So could you talk a bit about maybe decisions about environments? Yeah, so the environmental side
Alix Dietzel:In the UK, so that's like what I did my the UK. And the environment sector is one of them, like who work in the environment sector are people of colour, and like people of colour in the general population, which I Also, when you talk about climate change or environment, criticisms of extinction rebellion, it's seen as a group you look at research on eco anxiety, so fear around classes, lower classes are just as scared as each other. So therefore who kind of has a say in decisions around things like so for me, that is a context that matters. Because if you're check out, and people can come in and have their say, and be you know, the sector that doesn't allow that, that that is
Caitlin Hafferty:I imagine is that similar for not just distributed fairly as well? Or do you think there are those
Alix Dietzel:Oh, yeah, that's what really got me interested in there's like, serious injustice, you know, you could say, I'm a supervisor, you know, I'm so interested in global justice and write about it. You know, in an abstract sense, I need know, you could work on poverty, or refugees or climate change, actually care about climate change. I grew up in Austria, I question of like, how do we protect the environment for the know, when I thought about the injustice of it all, because most, you know, it's people in poor countries with very low course, it's future people or young people who have done industries, like the fossil fuel industry, rich countries, who perfect, dark twisty injustice problem. And that's what's drawn
Caitlin Hafferty:with regards to these themes around sort of study that you focused on with some of this recent work is the challenges and opportunities that you found around suggest
Alix Dietzel:So the backstory is that I live in Bristol, and going to go anywhere. And then, kind of as we were entering into Climate Change plan, where they promised just transition. And I around, like should we really be in a room together, you know transition and that it would be an opportunity for everyone in good for everyone. And I was really fascinated by that And then this idea of like, everybody will have a say. So I actually happens once a city does that, what does that look had lots of experience with watching meetings and doing change policymakers from across the sector, you know, some like green ambassadors, and just sit in and watch as they discuss, vulnerabilities, climate justice, and then we tend to interviews. So this was kind of like a pilot study, I would call who has a saying, and who doesn't, we were open to looking were all on Zoom, by the way, so chuffed Imagine me and Alice in although the gender split in the room was quite even, men seem to But I just made a little sheet for myself in front of me where which never got a single tick, because there weren't any And I think Alice wasn't able to be there. So I just sent her a white women than almost none and people of colour. And I said, you should. So that's how that became a focus of our project openly, like the city has promised just transition, what
Caitlin Hafferty:Yeah, I think these are really crucial points, recovery, and land use decision making as well. I think what almost exactly what you're saying, I've noticed in the kind everything that we do, it's at the very heart of what we're rigorous and embedded process of engagement or participation or because you certainly this focus on that everybody is having a worsening of those issues that we were talking about the darker
Alix Dietzel:And I think like both Alice and I had studied the negotiations. And mine was on like, looking to the global development of that, and we had seen those patterns of exclusion something different at the local scale. So it was a little bit able to make those observations at the local level as well.
Caitlin Hafferty:Yeah, no, definitely. Just a sort of very reflections of Did you get any kind of indications from your I was reading a blog post earlier about sort of powerful sort of frontman, you know, there to change the world like that with these you touching on the men spoke a lot
Alix Dietzel:Yeah, I'm not sure. I think it's more a ego driven person, and sometimes they can be men. But I think it's not pointed out and people are not very self reflective of have you noticed these dynamics in the room, you know, that it's would say, Yeah, we're really aware of that. But we don't know awareness. But because of these embedded inequalities in the
Caitlin Hafferty:Yeah. And you touched on that sort of the institutions to ask those critical and difficult questions quo. Can you tell us a bit more about that, and why it's
Alix Dietzel:so I should say in the study, we found that the through the meeting in the set time. And often, these another type of expertise. And they're volunteering. So for boards, its volunteers. So it's very busy, you know, people have Is this the right chat that we're having here, or like is justice or vulnerability, or even just transition don't talking about retrofitting housing stock, or you're talking usual. And the space to have critical discussion is missing. transformation. You know, it's not a no joke, it's every sector prepare for climate change, we really have to change our be critical. And it emerged in our interviews that, you know, have spoken more. But when the schedule is really packed, you maybe I'm doing something else in the background? Because
Caitlin Hafferty:Yeah, my mom's or if just thinking about the a political policy and said tariffs and finance and also resources, that critical reflection is in part, due to climate issues. So I've read a lot on the fact that, you know, ecological ways as quick, you know, not quick fixes, but as aspects are often undermined, overlooked, misunderstood as an they come at the end of the project, you know, we're going the start sort of what are your views embeddedness of social
Alix Dietzel:there's two main like problems I play. The first easier to think, Okay, here's like a few graphs. And this is down by at this point of time, it's very clinical, you know, intense inequality. And that is a lot harder to discuss, like to way we treat each other is terrible. And we really need to that is really, really hard to bring to the table to sit with way to discuss and look at data is more comfortable for people. bother with justice, or ethics? Like, we just need to do what's that we have a new technology developed before we phase out time. But for me, it's like if you're gonna transition your take the time to do that well, and to really listen to the going to have to do it again when the next Problem emerges, global scale as well, it would be completely disingenuous to ludicrous to tell the poorer countries Oh, don't worry about have destroyed, you know, we have destroyed, the richer disappearing. So I think it would be very difficult to have it's easier to talk about technology, it's harder to
Caitlin Hafferty:Yeah, sort of leading from that. And then and steps for your research and Bristow, and farther afield but working in an environmental space, is whether these more fast paced, urgent need to tackle environmental issues? Or down? What would you say to that?
Unknown:I think it's worth it to slow it down. And like, you have produced more and more detailed technical planning. But beautiful IPCC report, and they'll go, okay, thing, I've how social the social world operates. Not at all. And there power hierarchies, there's historical things that have the way. Like, it's not this neutral space, where you can you address it or not. So I don't think it's a waste of otherwise, you're being disingenuous, you're ignoring you're having the same discussions again, you know, taken the time to have this these chance, what happens next? and we have to come together to resolve it. If you don't have problems.
Caitlin Hafferty:Yeah. So much better to take a more adaptive qualities to the fore, rather than proceed great stuff, and
Alix Dietzel:That is not even saying the obvious, which is have a say in the society that they live in, you know, that's run into the next big global problem. If you don't do it.
Caitlin Hafferty:human entities as well, I'm seeing more in you're outlining a range of kind of very practical, pragmatic initiate and also embed more just sustainable, equitable and about it kind of on and off throughout our conversation. But making viewed as a one off or tick box activity is added on to that mean in practice, sort of why is it important to embed
Alix Dietzel:Yeah, so you could technically take one moment in assembly that takes six months, everyone's views are accounted would be really a lot easier. But the way that transition is year plan, things are going to move and there's going to be technology, the weather patterns could be You know, worse than we in time, are just like representative of that moment, transition a whole society or city or community, you need to and say, okay, that means bike lanes for everyone, and we're might still want to check in what has happened now that we've affecting day to day life? hasn't had the, you know, because you're talking about the shift that is so colossal, it's can compare it to, it's like the end of slavery. I mean, it's a shift is being managed in a way that's, that's good for your
Caitlin Hafferty:Yeah. So I think we've covered many, many, messages. What are the takeaway messages? And then what's next?
Alix Dietzel:Yeah, I wish I had my paper in front of me now, have to open up space for critique. So conduct meetings in be creative about how you set up meetings, so that there's space of colour into your meeting, and then everything's fine. It needs from a particular community and expecting them to have all the should we do about disabled people in the city, I mean, that get into your meeting spaces. And there's lots of different advertise meetings and public gatherings. There's lots of know, don't do though, like, there's an agenda. Let's take through, you know, trying to think about more creative little bit, so that it's not so stilted. And it leaves a bit
stephen thomas:Just to show that point, just the question, know, I think for a lot of men, you don't even notice that way you're brought up or that have you provided you actually, that was getting a lot of the things right, or is this
Alix Dietzel:No, we definitely observed that practice. So the a scheme where they have three or four ambassadors a year in communities into environmental spaces in the city. So decision wouldn't usually be in. And we went to public engagement event audience felt like there was a flat hierarchy. And everyone was non threatening way. Like, they were like, Oh, we're gonna start here's the facts, like, get into that. So there are definitely sector for 20 years, to change your practices as a meeting engage with the public about your findings, or whatever it don't think it's an impossible task. But yes, there are real opportunity because we have to transition anyway to really
Caitlin Hafferty:Scotland, the Scottish Government had been all the way across their government across forms of lot of work in other sectors. As well, the role of the rationale decision making spaces for the reason of onboarding, and more empowered approaches, actually hand over power and uncomfortable and vulnerable is crucial, because people need to the deliberative spaces and get ready to have your assumptions
Alix Dietzel:And just to say, you can still be evidence based, these discussions then based on if it's not the data or the want. So for example, in a deliberative process, you could discussion starts, for example. But I would also say like the like lived experience that's relevant, like, what is it like Because it's too hot? You know, what is it like experiencing a lived experience that can be really valid, and it doesn't you know, like, the vegan diet, for example, is like very trendy have always had a vegan lifestyle. And it was never lots of like, indigenous knowledge, community knowledge,
stephen thomas:Yeah. All right. Well, that was fascinating. It meetings or how the business world that can include to B. But no one really looked at the the invitees list. And, this way, this is what I'm going to do. And I know I can speak they're chaired by non white kind of organisers that there's, these different types of communication methods, I think comfortable. If we look back, we've been doing that for 5060 people that have done that, I think just a shout would recovery means. We'll be delighted to hear that. Which podcast, what does nature recovery mean to them? So far, mean to you? Yeah, it
Alix Dietzel:sounds quite like sciency. But I think for me, like, the direction that we're kind of heading in, like, how would it be like to lose something that's really waterfall that's really beautiful, or a beach that you save that. But if it's not possible to save it completely, some things you cannot compensate people for when lose our natural world, whether that's like species dying, or what is it going to look like to emerge from this and to recover emotionality of it and how you recover from that. So not to be
stephen thomas:it. That was very interesting. So The final have a special meaning for people. If, if you were to get a to you, where would you be sent to?
Alix Dietzel:I think probably the Alps. Because growing up and sitting in saunas, and like, you know, looking out the window would happily go in summer, because I like to jump in alpine summer and things like that. So definitely the Alps. For me it change. So getting to soak that in for a while before it looks
Stephen Thomas:Alex, thank you very much. Thank you you've been listening to the nature recovery podcast with me can, please consider leaving us a review as it will really help you never know. You might get them interested in the wonderful Centre for nature recovery, you can find us on Twitter at nature recovery.ox.ac.uk Thanks so much for listening.
