Wasps! What are they good for? Absolutely Everything, (Say it again) with Seirian Sumner

In this episode of the Nature Recovery Podcast, Stephen Thomas speaks with Professor Seirian Sumner, one of the world’s leading experts on social insects and a passionate advocate for rethinking our relationship with wasps. Seirian reveals how a reluctant PhD choice turned into a 25-year research career uncovering the remarkable societies, behaviours and ecological roles of these misunderstood insects.

Together, they explore how social evolution unfolds inside a wasp colony, why wasps are essential apex predators, and how their potential in pollination and pest control has been overlooked. Seirian explains the cultural and scientific biases that favour bees over wasps, describes global efforts to understand their ecological value, and offers simple ways to coexist with the wasps at your picnic. The conversation ranges from Malaysian rainforests to Brazilian drone-released parasitoids, and from the evolution of altruism to the future of nature recovery.

This episode will change the way you see wasps — perhaps even help you appreciate them.

About Seirian Sumner

 Professor Seirian Sumner is a behavioural ecologist at University College London whose research combines field biology, behavioural experiments and genomics to understand how animal societies evolve. She is co-founder of the Big Wasp Survey and Soapbox Science, championing public engagement and women in STEM. Her award-winning book, Endless Forms, invites readers to rethink wasps entirely — from feared picnic pests to extraordinary, essential, and ecologically vital creatures.

Endless Forms by Seirian Sumner:
https://www.williamcollinsbooks.co.uk/products/endless-forms-the-secret-world-of-wasps-seirian-sumner-9780008394479/

The Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is interested in promoting a wide variety of views and opinions on nature recovery from researchers and practitioners.

The views, opinions and positions expressed within this podcast are those of the speakers alone, they do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery, or its researchers.

The work of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is made possible thanks to the support of the Leverhulme Trust.

Transcript

00:00:05 Stephen Thomas:
Welcome to the Nature Recovery Podcast. We’re going to take a closer look at some of the solutions to counter biodiversity decline, and we’ll find out more about the people behind these ideas.

00:00:26 Stephen Thomas:
Today I’m lucky to be joined by Seirian Sumner, Professor of Behavioural Ecology at UCL and one of the world’s leading experts on social insects, especially wasps. Her research combines fieldwork, behavioural studies and genomics to understand how and why animal societies evolve. She’s also a passionate science communicator and co-founder of both the Big Wasp Survey and Soapbox Science. Seirian is the author of Endless Forms, which invites us to rethink wasps — their complexity, ecological importance and surprising beauty. Welcome to the podcast, Seirian.

00:01:20 Seirian Sumner:
Thank you for having me.

00:01:23 Stephen Thomas:
Before I read your book I thought “doing PR for wasps — that’s a tough gig.” Now I’m converted: if you like bees and ants, you’ll love wasps. How did you end up studying them — did you pick wasps or did wasps pick you?

00:02:28 Seirian Sumner:
I certainly did not pick wasps. I used to hate creepy crawlies and preferred charismatic vertebrates. My path to wasps was accidental. I studied zoology at UCL and loved animal behaviour; a PhD opportunity came up on social evolution using wasps as a model system. I didn’t expect to enjoy it, but the questions gripped me. I began working with wasps in Southeast Asia — the stynogastrine wasps — which have very mild stings, and lying on the rainforest floor watching nests was a revelation. Knowing the life histories of individual wasps made their societies feel like soap operas. That’s how I fell in love with them.

00:04:01 Seirian Sumner:
Those gateway wasps were perfect for me — delicate stings and fascinating social dynamics. Over 25 years, my work has broadened, but wasps remain central because they raise such rich biological questions across disciplines.

00:05:46 Stephen Thomas:
Is it harder to get funding for wasp research compared to bees? Does charisma affect what gets studied and protected?

00:06:54 Seirian Sumner:
Yes — human bias matters. I don’t pitch grants as “study wasps for wasps’ sake”; I frame them around questions with broader relevance. When I pitched a review about wasps’ ecosystem roles, it was initially dismissed as a niche organism paper; reframed as ecosystem services, it was accepted. Funders follow perceived usefulness and existing evidence — and because bees have been studied so extensively, they attract more funding. I’ve pursued small grants to build baseline evidence for wasps’ roles, for instance in pest control, which will hopefully lead to larger grants.

00:09:07 Seirian Sumner:
There is established biocontrol work with parasitoid wasps (widely used in places like Brazil), but social wasps as pest control are almost unstudied. I’m building that evidence base now.

00:11:31 Stephen Thomas:
That’s fascinating — drone release of parasitoids, wasp factories — incredible.

00:12:00 Seirian Sumner:
Yes, parasitoid wasps are used at scale. Social wasps’ potential as regulators and pollinators is under-researched, but they could be valuable.

00:14:04 Stephen Thomas:
You’ve convinced me. Your work reframes wasps from pests to important ecosystem players.

00:14:18 Stephen Thomas:
Reading your book changed my perspective. One thing I found striking is how social insects challenge our ideas of individuality versus the collective. Can you speak to that?

00:15:27 Seirian Sumner:
Vespine wasps (yellowjackets, hornets) form superorganisms — colonies operate like bodies, with queens as reproductive centres and workers as non-reproductive labour. Selection acts at the colony level as well as on individuals. Different wasp species display varying social complexity — some societies are small and flexible (workers can become queens), while others have sterile workers. These contrasts are excellent models for studying the evolution of altruism and major evolutionary transitions.

00:19:26 Seirian Sumner:
Polistes paper wasps were influential historically (Leo Pardi’s work) in developing ideas about social evolution. Wasps helped shape Hamilton’s thinking on altruism — workers help raise related brood, passing on genes indirectly.

00:20:06 Stephen Thomas:
It’s almost like a community more than a colony: individuals can sometimes leave, yet communal living benefits all.

00:21:45 Stephen Thomas:
If funding were unlimited, what would you explore next?

00:22:03 Seirian Sumner:
I’d fund a major centre for wasp research. My lab focuses on behavioural evolution and gene expression in brains, but the biggest planetary impact would come from demonstrating how wasps contribute to pollination, pest control, decomposition and ecosystem regulation — and showing how farmers might use wasps as part of sustainable pest management. I’d build large-scale experimental evidence to put wasps on the map, comparable to the research base for bees.

00:24:02 Seirian Sumner:
Indigenous communities often have constructive relationships with wasps, sometimes even using them as food or incorporating them into belief systems. There’s much to learn from that local knowledge.

00:25:06 Seirian Sumner:
Wasps can be apex arthropod predators, regulating prey populations. Removing them can destabilise ecosystems. Rather than reflexively removing wasp colonies in gardens, we should consider their ecological role.

00:26:56 Stephen Thomas:
You’d like public attitudes to be kinder to wasps, similar to bees.

00:27:03 Seirian Sumner:
Exactly. We don’t yet have the research base to advocate as strongly as we do for bees, but that can change with a decisive research investment.

00:28:03 Stephen Thomas:
I’m converted. On that note, I’ve always found social insects slightly unsettling; your reframing helps. Practically, people worry about wasps at picnics — are there simple behavioural tips to coexist?

00:32:17 Seirian Sumner:
Yes. Wasps are very visual and olfactory. They will be attracted to sugary drinks and protein (depending on colony needs). If a wasp approaches your picnic, stay still — don’t flap or shout, as those are predator cues. Offer a small “wasp offering” away from people (sugar or a bit of meat) and they’ll take it. Observing them quietly often changes people’s attitudes.

00:34:37 Seirian Sumner:
Wasps are seasonal. Weather influences abundance — a warm dry spring boosts populations. Workers hunt prey for larvae during most of the season and switch to sugar late in summer, which is why we notice them more at that time.

00:36:50 Seirian Sumner:
We ran a citizen science “ham or jam” survey to record whether wasps took protein or sugar — over 500 people took part and many reported that watching wasps changed their perspective.

00:38:07 Seirian Sumner:
Citizen engagement helps improve relationships with wasps; observation fosters understanding.

00:39:26 Stephen Thomas:
What does “nature recovery” mean to you?

00:39:28 Seirian Sumner:
Nature recovery is more than preventing habitat loss. It’s about recovering our relationship with nature. If we value all parts of nature — including wasps — and give nature space, it will bounce back. The problem is our relationship with nature; fixing how we value and respond to it will enable recovery.

00:40:17 Stephen Thomas:
Thank you, Seirian. Your book is fantastic and it’s been a joy speaking to you.

00:40:30 Seirian Sumner:
Thanks for having me.

00:40:30 Stephen Thomas (close):
You’ve been listening to the Nature Recovery Podcast with me, Stephen Thomas. Please subscribe and consider leaving a review — and share this episode with someone who might enjoy it.