The Germany Expat Business Show
A podcast that shares knowledge, stories and inspiration for anyone starting, running or growing a business as a non-German in Germany.
The Germany Expat Business Show
From Montreal to Frankfurt (and an E-Residency Hack) with Afshan Shamani
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Afshan Samani's journey from Iran to becoming the CEO and co-founder of PinoSell is a masterclass in resilience and innovation. After navigating cultural challenges and personal setbacks, including a broken engagement during her PhD in Canada, Afshan pivoted from academia to a dynamic career in tech and startups. Her relentless pursuit of new opportunities led her to Rocket Internet and eventually to the creation of PinoSell, a company inspired by the burgeoning potential of social media selling. Through her story, Afshan provides a fascinating look at how personal perseverance can drive professional success.
From identifying an unexpected e-commerce trend in the Middle East and Africa to launching a platform that transforms Instagram feeds into shoppable storefronts, Afshan's insights are invaluable for anyone interested in the future of retail and entrepreneurship. She shares her experiences working on a pilot project with L'Oreal and explores how her platform empowers micro-businesses to harness the power of social media effectively. With examples like a Munich-based cake business and a California-based letterpress hobbyist, Afshan demonstrates the platform's versatility and its potential to revolutionize how small businesses connect with their customers.
For those intrigued by the intricacies of setting up a business in Europe, Afshan's discussion of the logistical and financial hurdles in Germany, compared to the advantages of Estonia's e-residency program, offers eye-opening insights. Her experiences highlight the broader trends and challenges within the European startup ecosystem, including the increasing focus on innovation and international collaboration. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business owner, there's much to learn from Afshan's experiences and the ever-evolving landscape of startups and investment in Europe.
[👆The above description was spit out by hosting AI — We're a two woman operation here! Human show notes on the website.]
You can find this episode and all episodes as well as show notes for each at https://thegermanylist.de/the-germany-expat-business-show-podcast/
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Entrepreneurial Journey From Expat to CEO
Speaker 1Hi , I'm Eleanor Meyerhofer , a native Californian designer and digital strategist . In October of 1999 , a few years after graduating from design school , I flew from San Francisco to Munich with a fistful of Deutschmarks , a dial-up connection and an extremely vague plan . Twenty-plus years later , after a 10-year stint at a global agency freelancing and launching two online businesses , I'm still here . Now I'm talking to other expat business owners to share knowledge , stories and inspiration for other non-Germans running businesses in Germany . I am here and I am talking to Afshan Samani , and I'm going to kick off with a question I ask everybody , which is who are you ? Where are you from ? What is the two-minute story of how you ended up in Germany ? Absolutely .
Speaker 2So my name is Afshan Samani and I'm a CEO and co-founder at PinoSell . This story for me to come to Germany was kind of like a comeback to Europe for me . I'm Canadian but I also am originally Iranian , and so I was like 23 something when I left the country , and the first country that I left that I went was Sweden and I started my master's degree in Chalmers and then I went to Tuklarna and I started working there and it was one of my fantastic kind of experiences in my career and so on . It was the fastest growing company at the time in Europe and in Sweden . But at that time I was really passionate about cloud computing and stuff like that .
Speaker 2That was still a new topic , but me being me , at that time I was not mature enough to understand that there are other ways also to learn things . I was thinking that I have to do my PhD to be able to learn that . So then the whole kind of thing for me was okay , now I have to get my PhD and so on . But at that time I also was in a relationship . I was in a relationship with a kind of a partner at the time and later ex-fiance , at the time that he was in Canada and things was very complicated this way and eventually we decided that , okay , I go to Canada and I get my PhD there . So , fast forward , I went to Canada for my PhD and it was a huge cultural shock for me . I was living in Sweden for some time and I didn't know that I'd really had become that Swedish .
Speaker 1I mean Sweden and Canada are different countries , but I'm surprised there was so much culture shock .
Speaker 2Okay , yeah but I'm surprised there was so much culture shock . Okay , yeah , but I mean , swedes are a little bit like everything was . Sweden is extremely digitized and still Canada was like , yeah , a lot of things were different processes , towns in particular . I was just . I had a shock when I was coming from a European city to Toronto . It was a complete different architecture and it was remembering that the Swedes are a little bit conservative , to have small talks and talking to strangers .
Speaker 2They don't like it that much . And then I was just walking by the river and then one Canadian lady came to me Wow , I love your coat , you look amazing . And I was just for a second . What just happened ? But anyhow , I mean Canada and I started my program and so on , but life didn't actually happen the way I wished it to happen . Just a few weeks before our wedding , my fiance decided to broke up the engagement and he left to . He left to US , and it was just a few months after my arrival to Canada . So it was just boom at the beginning . Oh my God .
Speaker 2Yeah , but yeah , that's life . And at that time I was actually in my PhD program and basically I realized in my second year that you know what ? I'm not going to stay in academia , I definitely will go to industry and academia is I'm going to finish my PhD because I have to do it , but I'm not going to continue here . And I started working at the same time . So I had two startups . It was also a failed story there , so they didn't work out . Also a failed story there , so they didn't work out . And then I joined another startup which was the first kind of social e-learning platform that we were basically selling it to some universities and so on . I was there for four years and then Rocket Internet from Germany reached out and they wanted me for their operation in Middle East . So I became the chief product officer for their operation of marketplace in Middle East Once my mandate was done , and during this time I also married .
Speaker 1And once my mandate was done , I actually when you were doing this like rocket , what was the ?
Speaker 2company called Rocket Rocket Internet . Rocket Internet is actually a venture capitalist in Germany . They are the owner of Zalando , as an example . Okay , got it . Yeah , exactly . So what they do is that they basically run different operations across the world for the business models that work somewhere else . So this is basically the way that it works .
Speaker 1And when you were working for them , was that from Germany or from Canada ?
Speaker 2No , no , no , no . They wanted me in Middle East , so I actually had to go to oh , okay .
Speaker 2Okay , yeah , I had to go to Middle East . I went to Dubai , I went to Iran and then so on . Okay so , and once my mandate was finished , I went back to Canada , this time also carrying a little bit of divorce story there . And then I went to , this time I went to montreal and I started working at essence . Essence is actually one of the leading companies in fashion , e-commerce , luxury and fantastic place . Great , great experience for me there , a great team , but at that time I was actually senior director of product management , but still , I was like I want . I was like I want to have my own business . I want to have my own business . And then we had an idea with a business partner of mine , and that's why I quit my job and I basically went back again for the idea that we had , which basically we were seeing it more suitable for Middle East .
Speaker 2And during this time also again , good things also happens in life I met the love of my life and and basically he was german and we decided to to get married . That's a long story . That's how we got married , but maybe for another time . And then he wanted to to go to germany to stay next to his family and basically be there for them . And for me it was , wow , why not ?
Speaker 2I mean , majority of my bosses were German , I had a lot of German colleagues , I hired a lot of Germans , my best friends are German , my husband is German why not ? What could go wrong ? But yeah , that's basically how I ended up in Germany and at the beginning I was not really thinking that , what I want to do , and so on . The first year was a roller coaster for me in Germany with so many things that happened , and I'm happy that I'm sitting here right now and I'm saying that , okay , it's good that we passed them all . And then I started my companies . I started doing more research and getting some kind of original ideas and developing it , testing and discovery , while not knowing German and along the side of selecting German .
Speaker 1Okay , and you are in Frankfurt , correct ? Mm-hmm , okay , I am in Frankfurt . Yes , okay , so just help me again . That was a little longer than two minutes , but it's fine because there were a lot of drinks in there . Yes , exactly , and so you have been in frankfurt for how long now ? It's like two years and a half now . Two years , and that's germany . Two , two and a half . Yeah , yeah , exactly , okay . So you started to talk a little bit about your company . I do want to ask a little bit like , since you kind of went on this journey Iran , sweden , canada , back to the Middle East , to Germany what did it feel like ? I mean , so you kind of had this European background from your time in Sweden , yeah , did that help in Germany , or was like totally not related , totally different , or was it ? Did it make it a little bit more of a soft landing ?
Speaker 2Well , to be honest . So I had the support from my husband . That was a much better support in a softer landing from my husband . That was a much better support in a softer landing . But I would say my experience in Sweden as much as yeah , I mean I love European cities , I love going and I mean the culture there is amazing . These are the things that I like , but I cannot say that , in particular , my experience in Sweden was a help for me in Germany per se . Okay , it's , yeah , it's , it's a complete , like a different culture , and I cannot say that okay , I carried something with me in Sweden that I could actually use in Germany .
Speaker 1Okay , okay , yeah , all right , so let's jump into you starting your
From E-Commerce to Social Selling
Speaker 1company . So you started saying you were doing some research , like what prompted this ?
Speaker 2Yeah , so everything started from the time that I was with Rocket Internet . So I came from Canada and all I knew was about e-commerce was Amazon , was Walmart , ebay , shopify . These were the things that I knew about e-commerce and when we were basically doing our marketplace operation . One of the biggest kind of milestones in a marketplace is that you have to basically have a lot of products , a lot of assortments per se , and in order to do that , there is a huge difference when it comes to the market in Middle Eastern and African market with , let's say , eastern market , with East Asia and so on , the supply side is extremely fragmented . So you go to China and then you will find a wholesaler and then they have these hectares and hectares of warehouses that they have products and they can actually bring it into your marketplace . It wasn't the case there and they can actually bring it into your marketplace . It wasn't the case there .
Speaker 2So our mandate was to introduce as many suppliers , as many sellers as we could . So that was one of the challenges that we had and we were working on that , and then I was hearing from my team that somebody is saying that oh , I bought this from Instagram . And I was just ignoring it . At the beginning , I bought this from Telegram . And then I started realizing that this is happening a lot . So what's going on ? And I started asking people what do you mean ? You bought this from Instagram or you bought this from Telegram ? And then they basically said , yeah , people are coming , they show their products , they have the service and so on , and it's so beautiful . And then we basically text them that we like whatever they do , we exchange bank accounts and they basically deliver the product for us . And I was so surprised . And you do that and you basically trust the person that's just selling over social media to you yeah , why not ? They basically care a lot , and so on .
Speaker 2I became curious and then I went to my current business partner and that time he was the ceo . I said , listen , we need to investigate what is happening . I , at least , I need to get some sense . Um , so we started basically looking at the logistic data from okay , the parses that are getting delivered , and it was shocking what we understood .
Speaker 2The amount of transactions that was coming from these little , little little guys were seven times bigger than the entire e-commerce of the region . Oh , wow , it was shocking for us and because nobody was paying attention to them . Nobody even cared to study them them nobody even cared to study them . And so we said , yeah , we hit the jackpot here . I mean , they are extremely underserved and we are going to give them logistic , we are going to give them now traffic and whatever . I mean we are perfect for them . And we terribly failed in this operation . We tried to basically bring them on board , into , but it didn't work out for two primary reasons . One was that the commission , that Marketplace charges , was some of the entire kind of margin that they had , so they were not able to compete .
Speaker 2And the second was that they were social sellers . They were the people that they wanted to talk to . People show off their product and they talk and so they were selling to the community . So in marketplace they didn't have that . So that became an idea and then we started basically investigating the region . We had actually a project with Karim Uber of the region and we basically did a study for UAE , kuwait , saudi , qatar , turkey and we noticed that , okay , it seems that the pattern is repeating everywhere . That became an idea for us and we started basically looking onto that .
Speaker 2Back in the time I was still in Canada and then once we saw that , okay , there is an opportunity and we need to do that , we got the funding for it and we started the company . We started our company with series of suites of services for , like logistic , because logistic providers didn't even look at these little guys because they were saying , yeah , you guys are just so small , I don't want to basically look at you . So we became a kind of a hub here to connect all this kind of little ones and basically get the service for these people . We introduced pickup services and suits of services from catalog management , from payment , from store management , crm and so on , and we customized it and we tailored it for social media selling and the operation actually went well . We had 7x kind of year-over-year growth . We basically had more than 70 000 instagram sellers , and then in a few months ago we had also the conversations for series b investment . So it was actually good .
Speaker 2But the point was that for me it wasn't possible anymore to be on daily day-to-day business because , okay , my husband is in germany and I I it was not possible for me and I also didn't want to repeat the long distance , to be honest .
Speaker 2So then I came here and I had a hypothesis that , okay , this market is entirely different . The marketing channels are much bigger here , so we will see a different phenomenon here . But to my surprise , when I started digging a little bit , then I noticed that , oh my God , so the small businesses , micro businesses here in Europe , here in US , they basically struggle a lot to compete in digital space . Right now , majority of marketing channels are very much favored and as basically more towards people that have a large body of budget and body of people to work on it , and these people didn't have that and the only channel that was accessible for them to be able to work a little bit was social media , which they were trying it , but they didn't know how to sell over social media and that was what we actually have seen a lot in our previous company how do people sell over social media ? So that became the idea for PinaSell .
Speaker 1One question where do platforms like Etsy fit into all of this ?
Speaker 2Etsy actually is a very good example that how , over the time , it changed . At the beginning , it was a place for people that making like handmade products and so on , art and so on , but then it got bombarded with a lot of like , print and apply , with a lot of like . These big suppliers joined the game and started communication Exactly . So then you could actually see that a lot of people are no longer happy with Etsy . Yeah , yeah , and they all want to basically be able to grow in their social media and have their own community , but at the same time , they don't know how to . Okay .
Speaker 1So tell me about your product yeah , like I'm five what it does .
Speaker 2So , first of all , the product that we have is basically had two modules one is the instant shop and one is digital mentor and instant shop . What it does is basically , we see that a lot of people are already on social media and they don't have technical they are not like a technical guru or something . What we do , we collect social media content , we convert it into a we call it personal shop , that basically all the posts that you have can actually become shoppable if you want to , and you'll have your shop in less than three minutes . All the functions that you really need for selling over your communities , functions that you need to generate leads , functions that you need to create promotions and what you can actually need to update your shop Everything is tailored for selling over social media . So you will have it in less than three minutes .
Speaker 2And then the other function that we have is the digital mentor , which basically provides daily actions on what you need to do to position yourself in social media and sell over social media . It includes content that you need to publish , it includes emails that you need to do , it includes campaigns that you need to run and also how you optimize your
Social Selling Platform and Digital Mentor
Speaker 2shop . So these two components we basically started it with Instant Shop , which got us into a kind of a pilot project with L'Oreal , because L'Oreal actually has a lot of Sorry .
Speaker 1The Instashop , the Instagram commerce function .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's . Basically it works similar to Instagram Shop , but for us , you don't need any Facebook business , you don't need anything . You just need your Instagram page to be public , okay , and then we collect all the information and your shop becomes a mirror of your Instagram feed . Okay , okay , yeah , exactly . And L'Oreal , as an example , saw an opportunity with this product because they had a lot of hairdressers and these hairdressers were selling L'Oreal's product in their stores and they were missing an opportunity because all of these hairdressers were so active in social media . So once they actually saw that , okay , there is something that can actually help them .
Speaker 2So it was so difficult to say to a header start a Shopify store , start managing all of this kind of thing and add-ons and so on . It's difficult for them to do that . Woocommerce , forget about it . It's even more difficult . Oh , my God , yeah .
Speaker 2So then they saw that they don't need content creation here , so they just can use the content that they have in instagram . So we got into a pilot project with them . But it also brings another benefit for them , in addition to a new sales channel for l'oreal . Also , these hairdressers , like are many of them have like 20 000 followers , 10 000 , 30 000 and so on , and because it basically converts the post of the instagram to shoppable products , they have more motivation to create promotional content , so it becomes like a free marketing content for L'Oreal , as an example , and that's basically how we started .
Speaker 2And then our digital mentor came after . When I saw that how much these micro-bus , micro businesses , solopreneurs they actually need support to position themselves , and at the beginning I started giving services for free , but I realized that , okay , I'm repeating myself . I go on this channel and just repeat myself . So how about creating a tool out of that which , basically this digital mentor , is still in our pipeline to be built , but right now we have the prototype and we are basically sharing it with few people and we collect people into our rating list for that okay , let me just like give you a couple of examples that to help me understand this .
Speaker 1So there is a woman here in munich . I'll put it in the show notes Tasneem Cakes , I think , is her name .
Speaker 1She makes amazing , amazing cakes , good big cakes like a mermaid's , all kinds of stuff . Yes , it wasn't , and it's exactly like you said . When I discovered her , you know , I dm'd her and said like I need , you know , 30 cupcakes and my exactly here's day . So it's always like everybody's clothes , it's always a big hassle . So I was like I need all these cupcakes and she just says yes , and either her husband will drop them off at our apartment or I send my husband to pick them up , so she she could in theory , and her feed is just these beautiful cakes . You don't really need it . You could just in three minutes turn that into some kind of shop , exactly , even though , like a lot of it is in-person pickup and stuff like that .
Speaker 2That's okay . I mean and that's a platform is basically supporting selling services selling physical products or selling digital objects , so it doesn't matter for us . And in particular , in the case that you have , which basically is a service that they're delivering to you , there is a QR code that gets generated . When they come and then give it to you , you show them the QR code , they scan it and the service is getting delivered . So it basically supports that .
Speaker 1Yeah , okay . And then the other thing that I think is interesting about this and this is not a Germany-based example , but it's my father is that I think people selling on these platforms . I used to actually be kind of active , I used to have an e-commerce store I won't go into that long story but and I was active in Etsy for a while but my dad and he's in California . He sells letterpress printer and he sells . It's a hobby . He calls it his e-tirement . He sells like hot metal type and there are a lot of hobby printers all over the world .
Speaker 1This was years ago , but I made him a new website and he sells on eBay and this is his comfort zone . Cause I was , you know , dad , you could really kind of install a whole e-commerce thing and he just didn't . It was like I like it , I understand this , this is my way , and I was like , okay , it's probably better , like no optimizations I could make or , you know , are gonna make everything worse for him . That's how he sells . I think , if I understand , your product kind of meets people where they are , if that's like their jam , and they like to be on whatever Instagram . Is it only Instagram or is it TikTok Right now ?
Speaker 2we basically are focusing on Instagram , but for us , in later stages , we are looking into LinkedIn as well as the TikTok . Oh , linkedin , really , yeah . So we see some coaches are actually coming and they get interested , especially by looking at our prototype . So we see that there is actually a line that we can customize for LinkedIn , for consultants and coaches , so that they create their courses , their services and so on , but our digital mentor actually helps them to . Okay , now for LinkedIn . If you want to do that , you need to develop these strategies for your content and so on . However , that is different strategy and a different product .
Speaker 2That we do , but then that's back to your question . We see that people are coming and they're asking questions , so this is for me a little bit kind of understanding that . Okay , it seems that we are touching something .
Speaker 1Okay , but the main gist is that the person doesn't have to like stand up their whole own e-commerce or join a marketplace .
Speaker 2They can just take what they already have and sell . Yeah , exactly , okay , exactly , and our digital mentor helps them to do that . How to sell it ? Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1Because it's not like you just throw up your products and people start buying , Exactly In case you didn't say what is the name of this product .
Speaker 2So the company is PinoCell and it has two products it has Instant Shop and it has Digital Mentor . So Instant Shop is available for public , but Digital Mentor , no at the moment .
Speaker 1Okay , that's in the works , okay for public , but just on my channel at the moment . Okay
Navigating Business in Germany and Estonia
Speaker 1, that's in in the works . Okay , what I want to talk about ? So you and I met at what was it called expat finn con . Yeah , I expect finn con something like that yeah , exactly .
Speaker 1no , it really is just a great example of just show up to places and start chatting . And then we got into a really interesting conversation . Sitting in the next table , you heard me talk and you're like you know , and like , well , come over here , let's talk . And that's how we got talking . And you were telling me about your Estonian e-resident business . Exactly , this is going to be interesting to all of us who have had the fun experience of setting up a Germany business . So why don't you talk a little bit about what that is and what your experience is ?
Speaker 2Yeah , okay , remember I told you that , okay , germany was a roller coaster .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think a business in Germany also was one of them .
Speaker 2When I started here , with the help of a friend also , we basically established a gambaha and we got the entity and using that entity we were trying to basically establish the business , create business accounts and bank accounts and so on and then establish the whole thing At a time . So it seemed that some of the banks were not comfortable with newly immigrants and so on and it was taking a whole kind of cycle for us to even start an account here , to have our business here , and it was just going to a rabbit hole and we really wanted to have the business running . So , long story short , we were not able at that time , especially that I was new in Germany , I didn't have a history in Germany and so on . At that time we were not able to start the business and I had to basically have a European entity business . I had actually one entity in the US that I could actually work with , but for European companies they needed European entity to work with , so I had to have something in here .
Speaker 1And by entity you entity like a gmbh or or something .
Speaker 2Is it just ? What do they have in ?
Speaker 1the uk limited some some exactly exactly that .
Speaker 2so we we needed to have those , and then they didn't accept our gmbh in germany , so we had to also again shut it down and it was just a matter of like a couple of thousand euros .
Speaker 2We just completely wasted , and time was an asset . So I heard about a friend of mine that he did actually something in estonia . So I did actually check in and I realized the whole process seems to be easy . I immediately applied for something that they actually call it e-residency . It's not like real physical residency in estonia , but it's a process that they basically review who you are , what you really want to do , and give you an identity within Estonian state and basically using that electronic identity that you get . So the e-residency that you get , you are allowed to open companies in Estonia a variety of different companies , yes , and the process for me to get my e-residency I think it took like six weeks or something and you pick up your e-residency card and after that , in under a week , I was able to have my company running . I have my bank account running , everything was ready , all the documents and everything was ready , and the process was completely digital .
Speaker 2I even didn't need to put my feet in estonia , even for banks , even for banks , and so we got the entity and that's why how we actually could manage the contract with our partner in poland , with l'oreal and the . The process was extremely startup friendly . So , for instance , regulations there are in favor of Laboke startups that's just started . They don't have like that much attraction , so let's not to bother them a lot with taxing . So , even so , I think in the range was about 40,000 .
Speaker 2So if your startup is actually generating less than 40,000 euro , you're not obliged for having a VAT Exactly , or supporting a lot of supports . And if your company is making profit and you're reinvesting it in your country , you are not paying taxes on that . So you're only paying taxes for the dividends that you actually have for the company services . All are available for doing all your taxes and super easy . I couldn't believe that . But then I was actually putting it in comparison with germany and for a game . But how you even need to , how much you need to pay for the notary , how much you need to basically go on quarterly basis , at least 35 000 euros just to have a gambi heart .
Speaker 2Yes , it's basically it is possible that you basically use . There are actually few ways that you can even do it with less money , but it's still a capital of the company . For people that have the money , then they can actually use that money for the work of the company . But yes , they , you need to have it . But I was actually talking to a friend of mine in in the same expat finco . He was sharing that it's possible also to use a particular policy that they have I'm not an , so don't take my word for that . He was actually saying that it's possible to start it with like two , three , three thousand euros as a gambit , but then , whenever that you actually get the revenue , you need to put it back again and make sure that , ok , you are fulfilling the necessary capital for the company . But again , this is something that you need to check with them . But , yeah , you need to have a bigger capital . But even for me , for instance , my capital was very low when I started a company in Estonia , so from that angle also , they were supporting it .
Speaker 1And while you have this , you don't have to deal with the German finance or tax authorities at all .
Speaker 2So that's another thing For the Estonians . So it's basically it's absolutely okay . But Estonia is part of European Union and it's accepted . However , when it comes to Germany , as a German you have to , we're reporting everything , everything there , and for the companies that become profitable then it becomes a challenge if they are not proving that they have residence as an executive or something like that there . But for me , it's not the point at this point . So because we are basically still at the earliest stages , later on we are going to bring our people to offices in Estonia , so that's not a problem . So for me it was a very good , easy to start solution .
Speaker 1And you'll cross all that bridge when you get to it Exactly , Okay , okay , Wow , that is really fascinating . Okay , I want to also just quickly ask you I am not obviously involved you still started the business here in Germany , even like the entity , and all that was done in Estonia Exactly , and you're so I assume you're kind of in the startup scene a bit . Can you tell me what that's like here ?
Speaker 2like here I have to say , yeah , yeah , exactly so I was . I was coming from from , from Canada , and I had the same expectations , to be honest , to to see similar ecosystem and it was not the same at all . It was not the same at all . Especially , everything was in Berlin , munich , berlin , munich , Berlin , not nothing , nothing else . I mean you are in Munich right now and you have a much stronger ecosystem of startup in comparison with Hessen that I live right now .
Speaker 1It's all banking right Because of Frankfurt .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's quite interesting . Frankfurt is actually the heart of banking , but you don't see majority of investments to fintech as an example here happening .
Speaker 1Yeah , okay .
Speaker 2But I compare the first year to the second year . First year for me was and I'm not saying that okay . Yes , obviously there is a kind of learning care for me , also to to understand what's going on around me . But a major shift happened . Last year almost there was nothing . This year , there are a lot of things are coming up and Hessen is actually pushing towards okay , making more events , bringing more experts , bringing more investments and so on . Still has a long way to go , but they have realized that this ecosystem needs to catch up , so they are now trying to bring as much as you know , different accelerators trying to have also presence here , different investment firms try to have events here as well . But there's still a long way in comparison with Munich and Berlin in Germany , a long , long , long way in comparison with Germany and , let's say , uk , yeah , and obviously forget about US .
Speaker 1Are there any technical universities in Frankfurt ?
Speaker 2I have no idea , I believe so I believe so , and there is one , a very strong one , in Darmstadt that they're doing robotics and then they're doing fantastic job there as well . Yeah , one of them actually attended the AI week that was happening in Frankfurt a few weeks ago . That's so fantastic . Even the people were coming here and they basically shared their journey and they had made kind of a dog robot and then the dog was running around and kind of saying hi to people .
Speaker 1And it was cute , it was very cute , okay , okay , interesting , and is is the whole scene .
European Startup Ecosystem and Investment Trends
Speaker 1Is it largely english-speaking or german-speaking ?
Speaker 2for some time it was majorly only german , uh , but , as I said , the change is happening . They are basically opening it up not for only German startups , but also becoming seen to attract from other , especially European countries here as well . So they have started to a little bit more having German English conversations and run the programs in English and so on . But , as I said , it's a shift .
Speaker 1It's a shift that is happening Okay and I can clearly see that Okay Interesting , so would you say it's also just part of that is that it's becoming more international .
Speaker 2Yeah , they have realized that they have to become more international and then be open from both sides , from innovation and from investments so this is basically a lot of work that is going to that they are doing .
Speaker 2I was in berlin , I was in I don't know if you know encourage ventures . They basically are a kind of a non-profit organization that they are trying to bring more awareness to female founders and create communities of business angels and so on , that they invest in female founders , and I was part of their annual gathering in berlin and one of the lady I'm unfortunately forgot her name , she was coming from european innovation center and she shared okay , how much plans is there ? First of all , what is the degree of problem for Europe Not just Germany , for the entire Europe and how much they're actually working to bring more support and more programs for the startups and so on . They have realized it , so it's basically a matter of okay , really focusing it and then solving it .
Speaker 1What kind of like ? What are the criteria ? These people , the angel investors and all these and what is this ? Like 20 billion sunrise , but like the EU has some massive funds for grants , like what are they ? What kind of businesses are they ? I mean , I'm sure it's all the sectors like deep tech , green tech . I noticed like people just started putting tech on the end of everything .
Speaker 1Wellness tech , ed tech , just like I'm like , okay , everybody's like trying to get some money , but like what are they ? Is it all industries ? Are they like looking for things that are going to disrupt ? Like what are they , is it ?
Speaker 2all industries ? Are they like looking for things that are going to disrupt , like , what are they trying to do ? A variety of different types of companies . Some of the grants are a little bit for more established companies , which they have the resources that they can connect with universities and so on to do deep , deep research , if you will , or something that is extra . For instance , right now , especially at this age that such technology like an AI could actually define the future of a country , of a continent , if you will . So they basically have grants supporting research , supporting companies that are actually working on deep tech , artificial intelligence and so on and so forth at a global scale .
Speaker 2There are some schemes that they basically define that within these areas if it's actually energy , if it's AI , if it's this and this and that they define some budgets and then they specify what type of companies they're looking for so that they can actually leverage from these grants . And then , in some of these areas also , they make it available for companies that are just starting . They just want to understand a little bit of kind of test and try . The budgets typically are much smaller in comparison with other ones , but there are some available kind of areas that especially startups that are working on untrained topics Right now . Climate is very untrained . Sustainability , let's say more health , these are the topics . And AI these are the topics that are very interesting .
Speaker 1I feel like if anybody wants to do anything right now in Europe , it's got to be like climate or defense . Be real . Yeah , that's good . We're recording this on the 13th November . What is this about ? A week after the US elections ? Well , yeah , have you heard anything like that ? I mean , I do know a friend who's working at an agency and they're already working for the German Bundeswehr and stuff like that .
Speaker 2I just feel going to be a lot of money slushing around there . I think we are living in a space where I don't know if it's a good thing or if it's a bad thing , but technology right now is a political discussion . It's , at certain points , scientists and technologists were doing whatever they wanted to do , and so on , but now it really can define the future of a nation and and how it's actually getting positioned . So technology is a political comment , is a political discussion , and for that sense , european union also is not an exception . They have realized that their their the rocket programs , their their aerospace programs and so on and so on . They basically have realized it , but it requires a little bit . Also , when I'm talking to some German friends of mine , they basically say that European Union is still , as a union , is young , and in order to really be able to move as a union and do certain sort of things , they still are struggling to some extent . But yeah , I mean defense could be one of them . In general , technologies that are going to define the shift of power . This is something that they will definitely look into . That and they should . I mean , it's not like it's a must . They have to work on it , yeah , but then it comes to from European Union , then it comes to countries . They also define certain set of grants and so on .
Speaker 2But if your question is about , okay , what business angels are looking for , that's a completely different story . That's a completely different criteria . That some angels , all of the angels they have some preferences , that , okay , what type of topics they wish to invest and what are the kind of big dreams that they have , and so on , and they also have criteria . Some of them are easier to take larger risk . Some of them are no , they want to see more and more and more of what is happening , so they need to be completely sure that something is going to deliver back to the money . It really varies between the and there are individuals . So VCs , you get some sense . Okay , vcs in US are like that . Vcs in Paris is like that . Vcs in in in Paris is like that . This is in Germany , I like that . You get that . But non-business angels is , yeah , it's a little bit like everyone has a taste . Yeah , okay .
Speaker 1All right . Well , just to wrap up , I do want to ask you , now that you've got a couple of years under your belt of starting and bringing a startup into the world in Germany , what would you , if anything , would you have done differently , or what are some lessons learned that people might find helpful ?
Speaker 2Yeah , the point is that when it comes to Germany in particular , a lot of things were different than what I had imagined and I have been living in different than what I had imagined and I have been living in different parts of the world . It was not like the first time for me to start in something new and start from scratch . I have pushed myself . All's also part of the part of the culture and then how trust is actually formed in communities in Germany . So even if , as a even let's say that I am an investor and I want to support you , I really like what you're doing , eleanor , I really like what you are actually doing . But when I'm actually looking into Eleanor's alone in this space and I also understand that how communities are formed , how business connections are formed , how this and this and this is formed , I see that okay , hair chances of success are very much lower and therefore it becomes a little bit kind of a different conversation . The risk for an outsider to come and start something here is much higher that someone that is already here knows the , the network and pick up the phone call to people . I can actually see their perspective . But at the same time , as I said again , these are the topics that have also been picked up by by the ecosystem , by the community here .
Speaker 2It's not something that , oh , okay , I am just saying it . No , this is something that the community is saying also , and they are working . And then , okay , how can we solve these problems ? And how can we , as an example , bring more awareness to female founders , because , statistically , they get less success in fundraising in comparison with a male equivalent male founder ? So there are a lot of activities that are happening to help out . It's just we are talking about the timing . It's a matter of timing , but if I want to start again , I would start building the network first , gaining the trust of people first , before starting the business , and maybe I would have basically found someone that I could start the business with .
Speaker 2So , these are the same things that ? Yeah , if I wanted to do it from the beginning , maybe I would have done it this way .
Speaker 1Well , that's great advice to end on . Can you just tell us again where everybody can find you ?
Speaker 2Absolutely , so they can reach out to me in my LinkedIn . They also can reach out to Pinocelle and we also have an Instagram Pinocell underscore shop that they can also reach out to me on my team there . So , and my email also is available in case that you want to reach out to me personally . Afshansamani at pinocellbio . So remember that is dot bio , so it's not .
Speaker 1Okay , we'll put that all . Thanks so much for coming on the show . It was great talking to you again .
Speaker 2Thank you so much , Eleanor . I really didn't understand how the time passed . I really enjoyed talking to you .
Speaker 1I was like let's try and keep it to half an hour . It never happened .
Speaker 2I really enjoyed the conversation and you should come to Frankfurt .
Speaker 1We should grab a coffee and definitely we'll do one of these days , all right , thanks .
Speaker 2Thank you so much , I appreciate it .
Speaker 1Thanks for listening . You can find this and all other Germany Expat Business Show podcasts at thegermanylistde Bye .