#74 The Myth of Productivity with Erin Whalen

How many lies a day do you tell yourself that connect your productivity to your worth? Do you even realize that you are doing it?

Perhaps the voice in your head sounds like...
"Don't let them see you sitting down."
"You can't even provide for your own family"
"You know you shouldn't take a break. You don't have time."
"They'll be so disappointed you didn't finish that on time."
"You definitely didn't do that well."

In this episode, host, Kylie Hein, and Compassionate Coaching founder, Erin Whalen, dive deep into the myths behind productivity and where they come from. Erin vulnerably shares what she has learned from the life and death of her sister Gina, and why you need to learn it too!

In this episode you will also find conversation on the power of restorative conversations, how to navigate anticipatory grief,  and spiritual insights for listeners striving for a balanced life. Don't miss this episode filled with wisdom, empathy, and a call to lean into trusting God's plan. Tune in for an enriching conversation that will inspire you to cultivate deeper relationships and grow in faith.

Connect with Erin

• Compassionate Coaching
• Connect on LinkedIn  
• Book Waitlist 

Connect with Kylie

• Book a free Confidence and Clarity Call HERE
• FREE Download - Daily Examen for Every Temperament
• Follow along on IG for live prayer, reflection, coaching, and inspiration. @kyliemhein
• https://www.kyliemhein.com

Transcript

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Do you ever have those conversations with a friend? Or even a stranger. And by the time you leave, you just feel so rejuvenated and so much more peaceful. And like you have clarity on life. This recording is one of those conversations. And as we wrapped up, I kept thinking the rest of the week, what is it that we can bring to the table to help cultivate. Restorative conversation. And three things came to mind. Number one, creating space and time. And what I mean by that is. Setting aside a time where. You're not looking at your clock. You're not rushing to the next appointment. You just have a significant amount of time where you can sit down with that other individual. And hold space for them. And they are holding space for you. Number two. Coming to the conversation without an agenda. This is not about you going to the other person to get something. Although, ultimately you probably will. It's just. Going to conversation to build relationship and number three, allowing yourself to be seen by the other person. Exactly. As you are. This vulnerability. Can take the conversation to a new depth and it gives the other person permission. To do the same. I think all of these things are true when we go to our prayer life as well. If we can create a time and space for the Lord every single day. Where we're not going to be interrupted and we're not going to be rushing away or thinking about all the other things that we have to do. If we can come to the Lord without an agenda, we're not. Coming to him because we want him to. Take away all of her pains and. Because we want him to be the, give me God. To just fix everything instantaneously. And it's not that you can't ask for those things, but just going to him again to build that relationship. And number three. The last one was allowing yourself to be seen and be vulnerable. As you are allowing the Lord to see you. And all of your brokenness and to love you and all of that brokenness. To not hide away the places of you where you feel shame. To not block yourself from the graces that he wants to offer you. Because you're afraid that he might not like what he sees. Because ultimately he already sees us anyway, but. Our Lord is a gentleman and he's not going to push his way in. He wants you to invite him into those places. Restorative conversation is truly what this episode was for me. And I pray that you will get as much out of it as I did.

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As Aaron and I discussed the lies behind the idea that stillness equals illness. And the myth behind productivity.

3:09

Hello, beautiful souls, and welcome to the Persistence in Prayer podcast hosted by Catholic Mindset coach, wife, mother, educator, and speaker, Kylie Hine. Kylie is passionate about helping you deepen your relationship with God through the power of prayer. This podcast is a space for high achievers who want to do it all, but also want to prioritize their spiritual life and grow in faith. Join us as we explore the beauty of persistence in prayer and the transformative impact it can have on our lives. Get ready to discover practical tips, insights, and inspiration to help you develop a daily prayer practice and cultivate a deeper sense of trust in God's plan for your life. Let's journey together towards a more fulfilled and faithful life as we invite the Holy Spirit in. Let's begin. Hello, everyone. And welcome back today. I'm joined by Erin Whalen. She is the founder of Compassionate Coaching, whose mission is to restore dignity to the grieving, the dying, and to help them feel seen and heard. By filling the cups of and providing communication skills to those who serve them before founding compassionate coaching in the fall of 2020, Erin spent 14 years as a professional actress and role player, particularly in medical education. She uses that background as an actor, trainer, facilitator, and playback. Theater practitioner to develop highly interactive, cathartic and memorable programming that centers around giving and receiving empathy for professionals and volunteers and the end of life and bereavement field. Erin uses her own experience with grief, particularly her sister Gina's death in 2016 and her lifelong relationship with anticipatory grief to infuse her work with empathy and compassion. Her debut book about her 40 years with anticipatory grief and what to do now that her sister has died will be published this year. Erin, I'm so glad you are here. You have such an incredible story about productivity and worthiness that you have walked through, and this is a topic that I talk about a lot on the podcast, but I think it's something we just really need to hear again and again and again, is this truth that our worth comes from who we are and not what we are doing, not the outcome of our productivity. Because even though we know it intellectually, believing that internally is something that is very different. So thank you so much for being here to just share your experience and your wisdom. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I think what you're doing is awesome. And as soon as I, we were, you know, talking offline in preparation for today. And as soon as I heard exactly who you serve, I'm like, Oh, that's me. I should be listening to your podcast every day because you have such. Wisdom to share with, uh, perfectionists, recovering perfectionists like myself. Yes. Amen. Thank you so much for that. And Erin and I actually, before we jumped on and started recording, found out that we actually grew up in the same area. So this is just a total God moment where things come full circle. And, What a great gift. It's wild. I know. I can't believe that hadn't come up at all until it's just a casual, like, we're zooming in from. And yeah, that was, that was wild. I think that's, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So to anyone listening from the Omaha area, shout out from Erin and I. That's right. I'm no longer there, but I was there for a visit over the summer. That's where my roots are. Good old Omaha, Nebraska. Yeah. So speaking of your roots, tell us just a little bit about you. So I am the youngest of four. I grew up in Omaha and, have now lived on the East Coast for a number of years. I guess since 2000, oh gosh, um, it's hard to say, I've been in Northern Virginia since 2000. 2001, which is right outside of Washington, D. C., and I live out here with my husband, and we have one son who's 10. He just started fifth grade. I'm gonna cry the whole year, maybe, maybe not, because I'm like, he's gonna be in middle school next year, and that just feels It's wild and crazy and I'm already feeling nostalgic for all of the things, all of the lasts of elementary school that are happening this year. Yeah, I have a kindergartner this year, so that's always kind of sad too. I think everyone says that, you know, when they have the senior, it's sad when you have the kindergartner, it's sad when you have the middle schooler. So much sadness. Yes. Watching your babies grow. Oh my gosh. That actually told me just yesterday. I had to leave him at soccer practice. I couldn't stay because my daughter had something at the same time and I picked him up and I said, how did it go having me leave and you were there by yourself? And he's like, I was fine, mom. Next time you can just leave me and go hang out with Abilene. I'm like, okay. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And then like, there's a little stab in your heart and you're like, okay, that's great. You're so independent. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. So you had shared with me that it took you a while to come to terms that your accomplishments and your productivity did not equal your worth, that you could be unproductive and still be worthy and holy and healthy. Tell us how you came to those conclusions. Yeah, that's, uh, and it's, I'm still a work in progress. I'm still working on it. It's a daily challenge, right? I think two things come to mind for me. One that I didn't share with you, is that about a year ago, I started experiencing migraines out of the blue. And I think it's due to perimenopause. I'm of a certain age and I think the hormones just shifted and I just started getting migraines. And so I went through this season of shedding, like shedding so many things. I shed a lot of jobs. I work, not only do I have my business, but I also do a lot of freelance work. And you know, for my business as an entrepreneur, there are just so many hats that you wear. And So many things that you do and I just had to take a hard look at my life and my calendar and I had to say I've got to cut back most of this and it was so hard, I stopped even making like my daily to do list, which I thought I would just live and die by like I couldn't imagine not having my daily to do list because hello, how do you get through your day without your to do list? It just. Seemed like something I would always do. And I just had to shed so many things because when my migraines started, they were bad and constant, and so I literally couldn't function. And then they got less bad, but they were still constant. I was still having these symptoms. Literally 24 hours a day. And it was just. You know, nightmarish and, and I just have so much, compassion for people who have chronic pain because I just, I, I thought I would always feel that way. I thought I would forever be the person who just had constant migraine symptoms and I thought I was, well, I definitely thought I was going to die. I thought I had a brain tumor and I didn't, but all that to say, like, I had to just shed, shed, shed, shed, shed things in my life and purge and just let God just, Take care of me and I had to start resting and I had to start, watching my diet I had to change my diet. I had to I mean I spent most of December just on the couch or on the loveseat, you know It was it was pretty it was a pretty crazy experience. So that that came to mind when you asked the question Kylie because You know, I was forced to and I and I do believe that You know, it all, we're all, our body, soul, everything's connected, right? We know that, and I think that I was just trying to function at such, a high level for so long that my body just said, no, like, enough is enough, and yeah. And that's when, that's when I started having some, health concerns that forced me to stop, like literally forced me to stop doing that. So, had I not had that experience, I don't think I would have stepped back and looked at my life and said, hmm, like what, what can I shed, what can I change, what can I let go of, what can I say no to? I think saying no is really hard, for me and maybe a lot of people. Because you don't want to, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm covering people pleaser too, like you don't want to turn people down, you don't want to hurt their feelings, you don't want, you're afraid of what they're going to think of you, like all these things that don't matter, you know, it really doesn't matter. And so that's, that's the first step. the first bucket. I just talked for like a long time. So let me pause. No, I just want to say you said you had to change and as human beings, we don't like change. We can say we're go with the flow, but we're really not. We really don't like change. And having gone through similar health experiences, you were I had to stop and I'm still working through it. I mean, I had to change my career. I had to change a lot of things for me. One of the hardest things was learning how to rely on other people. Yeah, because I had this ungodly self reliance. It's so many things that I still work through daily, but it's so humbling when you can't take care of your own kid and you have to ask for help, or you can't keep up with the dishes and the laundry and you have to ask your spouse to do those things that you feel like you should be able to take care of, or you have to call in to work sick or whatever it is. And just, again, it's so humbling. It's such a gift because God is giving you the opportunity to grow in so much virtue, but it is so incredibly difficult when you are in the midst of it. And I relate so much to what you said of, I felt like I was going to be here forever and I'm hearing more and more women saying the same thing or who are in that season and coming to me and saying like, I am losing hope. It feels like I've been to every doctor or I've done everything I'm supposed to. I've tried to make these changes and it. It's not changing. And when you're in the midst of that struggle of carrying that cross, it can feel so very heavy. Yes. But like you said, you shed so many things and you will come out on the other side of it. And your story also just reminds me, I want to share this, Heather Mackiewicz. Did a presentation yesterday that I was listening to on restorative rest and she said, if you don't choose rest, rest will take what it needs. So I'll say that again. If you don't choose rest, rest will take what it needs. And it is so true. If we keep pushing and pushing and pushing, your body is going to say enough is enough. Yeah, and then you're going to have to let go of those things. So why not do it now before you're in that place? It's easier to do it, before you have to. Yes, in a lot of ways. And then just that consistency of maintaining it, because I know for me, I would get sick, I'd take a step back. But as soon as I was healthy, I'd go right back to the same pattern. Yeah, I'd get sick again. And it was just a repetitive cycle. And I think that's where a coach is so helpful to help you kind of break that cycle. And just taking that to prayer as well and asking the Lord to help you break that cycle and just be aware of it. And noticing. What is the thing that triggers me to reset this cycle and start it all over again? Yeah, that's so, yeah, I resonate with so much that you said. I'm sure the people who work with you are just so grateful because you have your own personal experience, but then you're able to take a step back and say like, okay, like this is, this is a pattern. I think that's really key, right, is recognizing it as a pattern. And I'm right there with you, like, my migraines are way better now, and so I'm like, back to my daily to do list, which, granted, I write on a dry erase board, I don't like, I don't do the whole paper thing, because then I would always just I would have all these papers by the end of the week, and I would be like, well, I never got Monday's, you know, 4 p. m. thing that I was supposed to do done, so I'm just, and it would just be this overwhelming mess, right, so at least I'm able to just At the end of the day, kind of swipe it clean, and Yeah, it is hard once you get that energy back or that, health back, how easy it is to go back to the old, the old way of doing things. And it's like a constant fight of like, no, like, I'm just going to end up, It may not be migraines, but I'll just end up in the same kind of spot again, where my body won't let me continue at that pace. And so I think for me, it's about, intentionally incorporating rest into my day. And I'm not great at it, but I'm getting better, I'm getting better at it. And it's about releasing a lot of the, um, the pressure, the pressure of, you know, do I really need to do that? The Surrender Novena is like my favorite thing ever. I say it. Every day, once I hit day 9, the next day is day 1, I just, every day, for like, 15 months now, I've been going, because I need that, and then, I'm still finding that, even as my day goes on, I'm just forgetting, I'm still compartmentalizing a little bit, right? I'm like, compartmentalizing morning prayer, great, Jesus take care of it all, and then I'm like, okay, goodbye, bye! Goodbye, Jesus. I'm gonna go work now. Like, thank you. And, you know, I'm, I'm trying little systems, little things on my, on my computer or things to just Let go throughout the day and surrender because we literally can't do anything like we literally we have no rights. We have no right to the next breath. Everything is a gift and it's just humbling when something you know when he gives us an experience to see how powerless we are. Yeah. Amen. I love that. And I love that you can just be so honest about, you know what, I go, I do my prayer time and I'm like, Lord, take care of it. What do you want me to do today? But the reality is you step out of your prayer time, we fall right back. I know. So something happens. There's, there's a crisis, a quote unquote crisis or an emergency. And then we're automatically frantic again. I know. And for me, it's just like, I love. my company. I love what I do. I get up every morning and I am so excited. And granted, I go through spells of everything's horrible. I can't do this. It's not working. I definitely go through those spells. But generally speaking, I am so excited about the work that I do that I'm just excited to get to work. You know, for me, it's not like a crisis hits for me. It's just like, okay, God, I'm glad we had this time together. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go do other things now. And It's just, it's hard to, you know, incorporate him into those decisions and into, into the day and, listening more clearly to his voice as he's guiding me in my work. That for me is the biggest challenge now is like, yes, I have dedicated prayer time in the morning. Yes. I'm, trying to listen to his voice throughout the day. And yet I think I need to be much more intentional about, really asking him, like, I, I think I'm going to do this now, sound good, what do you think? And being more intentional about that communication throughout the day, throughout my work. Yeah. That discernment throughout and paying attention though, I think is really great. One of the things you said is energizing about your work. And that's something that we do have to notice is what is the work that does give us life? Because that is very likely, or quite likely, the work that God is asking you to do. And you're filling your bucket with Him in the morning, and then He's saying, okay, go out. And He's giving you that energy, that life giving energy, through the work that you're doing, which I think is a great sign that you're probably where you're supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that was bucket number one was the season of shedding and then you said you had another what was the second the second one? And in the intro when you introduced me, you alluded to you talked about my sister's death So my sister Gina, I'm the youngest of four so Gina was second oldest and she had really severe cerebral palsy and When I say severe, I mean that you know, she You How do she was in a wheelchair? she needed care for all of her activities of daily living. she couldn't walk. She couldn't talk. She, um, you know, couldn't move herself from one place to another. She wasn't able to transport herself into her wheelchair. She needed to be carried into the wheelchair, pushed around in the wheelchair. She couldn't use it on her own. She had to be fed. She had, my parents had to take care of her toileting needs. I mean, it just literal every need had to be, you know, someone else had to provide for her every need. And since she was older than me, I was born into this family where, her illness was a parent. And it was also just like, Normal, right? Like I, I didn't know, it's not like she was well, and then she, got sick or, was diagnosed with something, or it's not as though I was older and I had an experience of having, a quote unquote healthy family, and then my sister Gina was born. No, like I was literally born into a family where my older sister had this really severe disability, and yeah, It just, the cloud of anticipatory grief just kind of hung in the air, right? And the funny thing is, is that I didn't even have that term, anticipatory grief. I just lived it, right? I didn't, I didn't know that I was living under this cloud. And part of all of that, part of You know, that experience and I'm still, grappling with it, wrestling with it, making sense of it all, processing it all. Part of that was, Gina had such great need and Gina was sick and Gina was also not able to, make things be productive and have output, she was, she was beautiful, right? And of course, you know, we have respect for every person because their dignity comes from God and that everyone's made in the image and likeness of God. She's the daughter of the king, like, yes, all the things. And she had no quote unquote, um, nothing to offer the world as the world might see it. Right. Right. And. She was very, passive, so to speak, as far as, if we looked at her output, if we looked at, what she did in the world, if you're looking at it from, from kind of the worldly, utilitarian, everyone has a purpose, everyone needs to do something, she was Not doing anything. Now, we know from our faith that that's not true, but from just the worldly lens, and so the kind of message that came that wasn't ever articulated was stillness equals illness, right? Being still like Gina meant that something was wrong being having someone take care of you. Must be because you are something's wrong because you're sick. Rest is Not for people who are healthy, right? That's the subliminal if you will messages And so I'm still unraveling that right like how can I rest? When I have this this subconscious messaging that says like no no No, keep going you don't want to that's not Healthy Right. Um, so stillness equals illness. That's, that's what I'm working on unraveling in my own life now. Yeah. That's such a belief that so many of us have, I think. And I can't imagine what it was like growing up in your situation. My only experience with cerebral palsy is in high school, we did a one act play called inside out, and it was about. a woman with cerebral palsy and what it was like to be inside of her brain. And I just remember I was the stage manager for that play and how emotional I got. And just as we were learning, our one act instructor was so incredible about helping us to understand what that was like for that person or just to meet people who had that experience. And so I can 'timagine what that was like for you or for her or your parents. And what a beautiful gift to the world that Gina was. And also just the witness of you as a family and your parents as a family as you cared for her all of those years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's true. I my parents did an incredible job. Gina lived to be 45 years old. So, um, I remember, I don't know where I heard this, but I remember being probably Eighth grade ish. And I wrote in my diary that Gina's life expectancy was 18 years old. And who knows where I heard that, right? Like it, it seems kind of random now that I think about it. And she was, you know, not that she was just shy of 18 at the time. If I'm remembering correctly that this happened when I was in like eighth grade or so, and, whatever it was, whatever her life expectancy was, it definitely wasn't 45, like her disability was so severe that, had my parents not cared for her and especially my mom, my mom stayed home and, took care of Gina and the rest of us and my dad, worked outside the home. So the caregiving really fell mostly to my mom. And without their superb care of Gina. I know she wouldn't have lived to see 45. I know that. I know that. And so, you know, there's this sense of, wow, like they, yeah, a total witness of like, this is love and this is true love. Parenting, right? And like taking care of your child who, um, you know, special needs does not even not to not to disparage any, anyone who has, a special needs child, but like special needs couldn't even define or explain the severity of Gina's disabilities, right? And so it was just a lot. It was just a lot. And, it, it really was. beautiful that she lived as long as she did, due to my parents, excellent care of her. I'm just thinking of the saintliness of your parents. Gina wasn't the last child. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Right. I know. I know. It's a lot. It's a lot to think about. Like. Wow. Well, just looking at all of the fruits that have come from her life, that was quote unquote unproductive in terms of the world, that was a burden in terms of the world. I think that's another belief that I catch myself thinking sometimes that I really have to recognize, like, this is not truth and renounce it. Is that. when I'm sick, I'm a burden to my family. Yes. Like the medical expenses or just the not being able to help out and all the extras that fall on my husband because of that. Yeah. And so just recognizing those little things that creep in, like we're a burden if we rest because we didn't get everything done. Yes. And just yesterday, again, talking about that restorative rest, I was so, I was actually really proud of myself because I was beating myself up a little bit because yesterday morning I took a nap. I had scheduled it out to work on a very specific project and I was not feeling well. You can probably tell I'm not my normal voice. I have a ton of allergy stuff going on. I think it's turning into a sinus infection. You look beautiful. Oh, thank you. And I was like, I just, my body needs to rest. And so I lay down. For what I thought would be a half hour turned into an hour and a half. Nice. But I, we were talking about what do you need for rest? What kind of rest do you need? And I was like, well, actually I already took a nap today and now I have this mountain of work that has not dwindled. I was like, that's amazing. I have a mountain of work because I chose to rest. And 10 years ago, even five years ago, probably even three years ago, I would have just been so mad at myself that, and I wouldn't have even thought of taking a nap. I would have been like, nope, find some caffeine, push through it and get it done. Isn't that wild? The, the way we talk to ourselves and the way we, yeah, the way we, we just justify, right? Like I still fight this, this urge of you can rest when you're done with that thing. Like you can take a break when you finish X, Y, and Z. And it's usually like really unrealistic. It's like, you can rest tonight, like while your husband's doing the dishes, you know, cause by that point you should be done with all of your work. And it's Ridiculous, like of course I'm gonna rest sooner than that and it's so hard like it I think I can't remember the exact terminology you used but the unholy, you said unholy self reliance. Is that what you said? Yes Yeah. Ungodly self reliance. Yeah. Ungodly self reliance. Yeah. Like that really resonated with me because we have this silly notion that like the world would fall apart without us, like we are so good and we are so, we're the only ones who can do that. We are the only ones who can do this thing or that thing or that thing. And it's like, actually, no, that's not true. And I'm learning to let go because my husband is a wonderful. Wonderful man. And we really, and we both are freelancers. And so our schedules are like, we're home a lot together. we're both really like, he's, he's very good at, doing a lot of the things around the house. Like we have a deal where whoever makes dinner, the other person does the dishes. Like it doesn't just naturally fall on me. Which is great. And it's also. Like there is this sense of, Oh, but maybe I should do it. It's just interesting. It's interesting to think of like, whether or not we quote unquote deserve to rest, whether or not we quote unquote, have earned it. And it's like, no, no, like we, we can rest and we need to rest. We need to rest. And. I think that the best rest is like you said, what kind of rest do I need? I love that. Like, really checking in. I'm also a huge nap fan, naps are my favorite thing. And really, truly listening to what we need. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, really allowing ourselves the freedom to do that and like back to the surrender and being like, and he will take care of things. Like I am a quote unquote allowed to rest. Yes. And rest doesn't have to be sleeping. I mean, restorative rest could be, for you, maybe it's exercise. It's just a break away from the other things. Yes. Or going to adoration, or painting a picture. I mean, it could be many things, but I really think of it as just stepping away from the busyness. Yeah. So just be. Yeah. And be filled. And what we have to remember is that when we do that, we get so much more done. Yes. The things that need done are still going to get done. My to do list is still going to get done. And I have to remind myself that a million times a day. Yeah. The things that need done are still going to get done or they are going to be taken off my plate. Yeah. Many times that has helped me as well. I've prayed in the morning. Lord, I. I don't know how these two conflicting things that have to get done today are going to get done and someone will call and reschedule their appointment. I, he just takes care of it. Yeah. And does that mean I don't still worry or have anxiety? Sometimes no, but the more it happens, I'm like, okay, this is going to work out. It always works out. Yeah, it always does. Yes. Yes, I find too, it sounds like you are very skilled at this and it's something that I'm still learning is like what really needs to be done like, you know, my, my idea of what needs to be done isn't always filled with a good perspective. It's more of that like ungodly self reliance, like, well, I need to do all of this, all 17 things. need to be done by me today by the time I pick my son up from the bus stop, and that's not true, right? So I'm curious if you have tips for me on like, how do you know what needs to be done versus what actually doesn't need to be done and what doesn't need to be done, whether it's delegated or just can be done a different day or doesn't need to be done, like doesn't need to be done or done to a, like a, a level that is less than my quote unquote best. Yeah, I think I always go back to why does this need done? And am I trying to please anyone by getting it done? What? That's amazing! Okay, you gotta say that again because I am like, this is good. Why does it need done? And who am I trying to please by getting it done? So so many times there will be something like, oh my gosh, I have to respond to this email immediately. And my kids are like, mom, you're on your phone again. I'm like, okay, does this actually have to be done? No, it really doesn't. It would make me feel better if I sent it. Because in my mind, I'm like, well, if I don't respond, this person's going to think I'm unreliable or that I don't care about what they have to say. And I've grown so much over this in the last year of saying, you know what? It's okay. If they really need a response, they will message me again. Hmm. I love that. And that has helped me a lot, a lot, a lot. And just not getting wrapped up in it. So wrapped up in that. And I think the ultimate question is, is anyone going to die if it doesn't get done? Or what are the repercussions if it doesn't get done? And sometimes it might be, you know what, if I don't follow up on this person, maybe they won't become a client. And you know what? That's okay. That's okay. Yeah, because maybe I don't have the capacity for that right now anyway, right? I love it so much It's reminding me of what you said earlier about like sometimes you look at the more at the day and you're like Lord Like I don't know how you I'm supposed to do these two conflicting things I don't know how it's all gonna be done. And then someone will cancel like just in that example We can even go to that person's Possible perspective and say like, Oh, I don't want to let Kylie down. I don't want to, you know, cancel my appointment today. Oh, I said, I'd be there. And you know, I don't want her to think I'm not committed or whatever it is. When in reality, her canceling is actually a gift to you, right? And so it's the same thing. It's like, you don't know, like with that example with the email and your phone, and the kids are like, Mom, you don't know if not answering her then is actually gonna help later, right? Yeah. You're actually practicing what you preach by doing that. That's one thing, right? And letting go of false beliefs, like, Oh no, I have to respond to this right now or else blah, blah, blah. And you're practicing what you preach, like having more balance and intention about how you're spending your time and what you're choosing to do when. And we don't have to work from this sense of pressure like, I've got to do it or else, that's usually not from God, maybe never from God where we have this, like, urgency of, you know, or else, like, what is the or else, what is it? And, and this notion of it's okay, if, if me not responding to this person within 30 minutes of getting the email leads to them not being my client, then. They weren't meant to be my client. Like that's, you've also got to make sure that you're setting up realistic expectations of I don't always answer emails with the, you know, X amount of time of receiving them. That's not who I am. I'm more balanced. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm more intentional about like, this is the time where I'm answering emails. This is the time where I'm doing this. And so I think that there's a lot at play at that example that you gave. Yeah, I love that you brought up urgency. This is something I've been praying with a lot. And I did an Instagram post on this, I don't know, couple years ago. I got some hate on it, but I talked about nothing is, nothing is an emergency. If we look at scripture, Lazarus was dying and Jesus waits two days, he waits two days before he goes, right? And he gets there and he's weeping and he's sad. He's sad that his friend is gone. He's sad to see Mary and Martha. But God takes care of it. And you can look at when he, um, it's Jairus daughter and Jairus comes to Jesus and says, my daughter is sick. Come heal her. And Jesus is going. But again, it's not urgent. The woman with the hemorrhages that is in between where Jairus comes to Jesus and he's walking to the house. The woman touches his cloak. And she's healed, and he stops and has a conversation with her. Wow. And then he goes to the house, and then the people who are not believing, you know, he, he says, stay here, and he takes his disciples, his selected disciples up, and the parents, and he says, little girl, I tell you now, get up. And she does. But he doesn't run there. No, he's not pushing through the crowds in a sense of urgency. He's walking through the crowd. He stops and he still heals on his way. And I think I've just been sitting with that, that Talitha Cum phrase has been in my head all year. And I've been praying with it this week again. Like, I don't know why you keep bringing me back to this Lord. I don't, I think I'm going to write a book someday about what happens to the little girl when she wakes up. I want to know what's the rest of the story. Yes. She's asleep, and then what? I think that's what I've been fighting with this, then what? But in the meantime, I keep going back to, it wasn't urgent. It wasn't that it wasn't important. It was very important. But he didn't rush. Yes. Because he knew that God would take care of it. That's amazing. That puts everything in perspective, doesn't it? Yeah. That's so huge. Wow. That is everything. That is so good. Drop the mic. That was so good. You can take that with you. All the God, that's just what's been coming up in prayer. So I love it. Like it, it isn't just like, Oh no, he like, goes like he doesn't run like that's it's so layered right it's not only that he doesn't run there but he like stops and heals on the way like has a conversation like gyrus is probably like dude like come on did you hear me like i told you yeah and the lazarus thing is just yeah i mean there's so much to unpack there and then i can't remember it must have been mary who was like if you'd been here he wouldn't have died right yeah yes Or not, like, if it was God's will, it was God's will, and, he's, it's okay. Like, yeah, there's a lot to unpack. And surprise, I'm gonna raise him from the dead. I know, right? They were like, what? This is new. Did you know that human formation is the foundation to your spiritual castle? That is just one of the many reasons why Catholic coaching is on the rise. In a world where you find yourself placing your worth in perfection, praise, and productivity, God wants you to know that you are worthy simply because he has created you. In the words of Joshua Metcalf, my value comes from who I am, not what I do. And yours does too. If you're ready for a foundation that is free of overwhelm, self criticism, and lashing out at your loved ones while you're chasing your dreams, come join me for a free one on one confidence and clarity call. You'll see transformation in just 20 minutes. Click the link in the show notes to schedule. Okay, I want to go back to productivity. This is a question that I have been Trying to incorporate into my prayer as well. And I haven't ever asked anyone. So I'm curious, why do you think it is that you had this belief and maybe you can recognize it started at a young age. Maybe it started when you were older about productivity equals worth. Is it a cultural thing or do you think that you had? An experience at some point, like someone said something, someone did something and it was like, Oh, I'm going to latch on to that. Yeah, I think I'm trying to remember if there was a specific moment. I think that part of it is just like I shared like in my family, like I just witnessed the message of like stillness is illness. I think part of it is like growing up in the Midwest. There's this like work ethic that it's not a bad thing, but it can be misconstrued into like working hard is virtuous. Resting is not virtuous, you know? And My mom's parents both grew up on farms. So it's like that is like extra ingrained. If you grew up on a farm, right? It literally is just constant work and you can't take a day off. Like there's no days off with farming there. You don't not feed the pigs one day or whatever you have on the farm, like you just do it. And so I think that generationally, that kind of messaging and that kind of, you know, Um, work ethic gets instilled into families and I think that as our society, it's clear, you know, when I was talking about Gina I, I, I hope it was clear that I know her life was worthwhile and of value. And of course, through our faith, like we see that, but the world could easily say she doesn't produce, she doesn't. Contribute. And so I think that I think we could all agree and say yeah, I could see the world, you know, society, having that kind of sense. And so I think that even if we can't pinpoint it, I think that that is just the flavor of the society that we live in. Is that got to produce, got to do stuff, got to output, got to, you know, um, you got to, you got to produce, you got to produce. Otherwise, what good are you? Yeah, I think it's everywhere. I'm trying to think if there's like a specific moment. There was one moment later in life, but I was, I was already, probably in my 30s and my grandmother, my mom's mom, she died when She was just shy of a hundred, in 2020, she died, in the hospital, she had COVID and you know, just shy of turning a hundred years old. And I can't even remember how many kids, 11, I don't even know, like a lot of kids farming, lived a very healthy life, very active. And I remember she was living in her, she was living alone in a three story house. When this conversation occurred, and she was in her 90s. And I said, Granny, what's your secret? What's your secret to living a really long life? And she said, Well, you just keep going. And it's like, Oh. Okay, like, I guess, I guess I gotta keep going, you know, and as she's telling me that, like, it's not like we're sitting down, having a cup of tea or anything, she's like doing stuff. Yeah. So it's like the words and then the actions of you just keep going. That's how you live long. That's how you're healthy. And she's a very faithful woman, right? Like, that's holy. And it is. Like, I'm not saying it's not holy to work. Of course, we all have our, our work that needs to get done and, our vocation and if we're called to business, then our business is. And of course, we gotta do stuff. And yet, there's a lot of messaging that says, like, or else. You know? And that, I'm just curious about that or else. What is this big bad monster, this or else monster? Yeah. That's such a great question to ask ourselves when we feel like we're rushing. And as soon as you said Midwest work ethic, I thought of farm life. Yes. It is so true. And I was thinking about my own parents, my dad grew up on a hog farm. He ran a hog farm, not when he moved to Nebraska from Missouri. And so it didn't have that when I was growing up, he was a teacher. And I remember him telling me. Probably when I was about 13. Hey, do you think you need to drop some activities? You just seem like you're so stressed out. I was like, no. I have to do all, like, I wanted to do them all. Cause I thought, the world would stop if I stopped doing any of them. You know, I needed to be in all of them, and I needed to do them all well. But, that's what he said. What I saw, was a guy who couldn't sleep at night because he had so many things going on in his brain. He would get up at three or four a. m. because he couldn't sleep because he had so much to do and he would go to work and he'd go prep for his day of teaching and he would teach in the He'd have to drive about 50 minutes to work. He'd teach all day and then he'd come home and then as I got older, we had a farm. We had 68 acres and so there was all of the farm work. And also as our family, we decided we had this great idea because my dad was a shop teacher that we were going to build our own house. And by build our own house, I don't mean design our own house. I mean like we were going to build it all in the summers when my parents were off. Oh my gosh. And this was going to be, this was going to be our childhood. Oh my gosh. Growing up, and I hated it, I cried all the time. And looking back at some of my best memories, like the bonding that I had and the ridiculous unsafe things that we did as a family to get that house together. And now I own some of that land, my parents have both passed and my sister gets to live in that house with her family. And it's still a lot of work. It's still a lot of work. Yes. Um, but it is. It's what we see. It's not even just what we hear. It's what we see. And my mom was the same way. She was always giving. She was staying up till 2, 3 a. m. I think sometimes she would go days without sleeping just because she was trying to keep up with the needs of everyone else. And she would make herself so sick. And she died at 48 from a pulmonary embolism. But I always just. In my mind, it was like, she just gave so much of her heart to everyone else that there was nothing left because that was her. And it took me a while to really recognize, like, that's beautiful and saintly. That's not healthy either. And there has to be a balance in terms of the rest and the work. Yes. I'm so sorry. I didn't realize both your parents had died and it sounds like your mom died very suddenly. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting when we talked about anticipatory grief, because I had never heard that term either. My dad had cancer. And so we've always talked in our family just about what's harder when it comes suddenly and you don't get to ask all those questions or like you said, anticipating what will come. Yeah. And it's just slow and kind of agonizing. Yeah. I'm curious. If you have any tips on when you're going through anticipatory grief, and it could be grief of a loved one, like losing, but also I think we grieve so many other things. This came up recently, someone was talking about motherhood and it's like, they're grieving the freedom, the loss of freedom, or I just took on a new job opportunity and I was grieving the change in my schedule, you know, even those little griefs. How do you navigate that when you know it's coming, like the end of something is coming, the change is coming? Yeah. I think that's a beautiful question and I'm still figuring it out myself. One of my biggest grief lessons is that, you're not broken, like you're not broken. And everyone's, I've heard it said before, everyone's grief is as unique as a fingerprint, like as our fingerprints. And so, you know, for me, my grief for my sister, who died, You know in 2016, so it's been it's been several years now, but i'm still processing her death for me the grief has looked so different from what I hear other people's experiences of grief is and For a long time and I still battle with this like I was making that mean something I was making that mean that I was broken Oh, i'm not crying for gina. Therefore. I must not have loved her all of these things that we think that aren't true, and I think that, number one, just know that your grief is just normal, and you're not broken, you're not quote unquote doing it wrong, like, that's definitely a story I was telling myself. I'm grieving wrong. Like, I am grieving wrong. Um, and, like, seek help, you know, whether it's professional help or just a friend you can talk to, I think that the more, the more we can talk about grief, everyone grieves. Right. And like you said, it's, it's, yes, it's about the death of a loved one, but it's about all of these other things. And if no one talks about it, you think you're the only one. And then the cycle continues. And then you're like, well, great, I'm doing this wrong. I'm broken. I can't believe I'm crying about, my kid entering fifth grade when I should be grateful I have a kid or, you know, like it's, we spin these things in our minds. And I think that grief needs to get out of our minds. And like, worked through with people, it's something that, you know, you can create art through your grief. You can find a way to channel that grief into here we go, like produce something full circle here. Um, but, grief is so connected to creativity, I think. And so there's opportunity there to write about your grief or, do something artistic with your grief, paint or, draw or just take a walk. Like just take a walk. And for me, yeah, anticipate, anticipating Gina's death was just such a lifelong thing that it's hard for me to know what was anticipatory grief. What was me in my struggle with depression and anxiety? What was me as an introverted, highly sensitive person? I can't tell, you know, it's just all me. And I can't really tell what a particular experience was kind of rooted in. And so, I think just, Finding other people to talk with is a great place to start, and just knowing you're not alone in it, and it's, it's totally normal, and it doesn't make you a bad person, and, just the relief, like, I was, I had a sense of relief when Gina died, just because I saw how greatly she suffered, um, and that is hard to admit out loud, yeah. But it goes with the, it's part of the grief. Right. And so grief is just so complex that if you never talk about it, you'll never know how normal it is. And so I think we just need to start talking about it more. Finding a safe person to talk to, like not everyone is gonna get it and be compassionate, but finding a good friend or family member that you can talk through things with is super important. Yeah, so I heard just recognizing that you're not alone in anticipating grief, whatever kind of grief that may be, that everyone is different. And so we don't have to beat ourselves up or be harsh to ourselves because what we're experiencing doesn't look like what someone else is experiencing, or it may not be expressed in the same way. I heard surround yourself with people and talk about it. I think this is so important. And I think also that It is so invaluable to find people who can understand. I know you've talked about empathy a lot and compassion. So finding someone that can empathize, not sympathize necessarily. Yes. Yeah. That's so important. I have a memory. It was a very distinct memory about that happened when my sister died, Gina died and we were at the wake. And one of the dearest people on the planet, is my cousin who flew in from California. At the time, she had maybe four kids and, still managed to like, her husband's a cardiologist. She found a way to like, wrap things up quickly at home and fly in for Gina's wake and funeral. And At the wake, she, we were talking and she said, she may have even prefaced it by being like, I don't know how to say this, but, or maybe that's just like my retelling of it because I'm like, it, the way I talk about it might sound kind of weird, but it's absolutely true. She said, I think that, growing up in a family with your sister being so disabled and so, dependent on your family, like, that made you who you are. And, I had my own moment of pride and I was like, no, no, no. I am just naturally so empathetic and such a good listener. Like that is just all me. Um, but I've really spent a long time thinking about that comment and thinking Oh, she is absolutely right. Had I not had Gina as a sister or had Gina been healthy and not had cerebral palsy, I would be a completely different person, right? Because I would not have had, the experience of being so close to suffering, being so close to caregiving, being so close to anticipatory grief, and Like I just, I would be a completely different person. I have a group of friends who like are in this, like death and grief and dying space. And they're just the most wonderful people on the planet. And I had lunch with two of them recently. And, one is a funeral director and one is a grief coach. And just the laughter at our table at Panera was just it just seems so counterintuitive, but then it makes total sense because people in that space just know how to live and they appreciate life because they've seen so much death and grief. So anyway, I was telling them, about, the book that I'm writing and about my experience with Gina and anticipatory grief and one of them said, well, yeah. And she said, She's a very spiritual woman too. And she's like, yeah, Gina's the co founder of your business. And she said it like so nonchalant. And I was like, Oh, you're absolutely right. Like, like, dang, that's true. So to also know that compassionate coaching wouldn't exist. Had I not had the experience I had of growing up with my sister, Tina. Yeah, that's so beautiful. I actually was recently getting coached because coaches get coached. We need to get coached. And we also know the value of it and how important it is to stay consistent, but I was getting coached and it was just having a rough day. It was very much my melancholic temperament because I just had not felt well in weeks and. And the coach is like, okay, so what virtue are you being offered to grow in here? And also like, why does that make you a better entrepreneur? Why does that make you a better coach? And like, oh, yeah, because if you don't go through it, just like you said, if you hadn't been through all of that, you would not be the person that you are. You wouldn't be able to offer this beautiful gift to all of the people that are going to work with you in the way that you are able. And it just like, yep, you're right. God uses it all for good. I don't know why I'm complaining. I should be thanking him, like, just really thanking him for all of this because I wouldn't be where I am right now without it. And the same with you and Gina. Yeah, it's so beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And I talk to her all the time. That's the cool thing too, is that, I don't know if you have this experience with your parents, but I feel so much closer to her now, and just talk to her all the time, and just feel her, like, Looking down on me and just smiling and you know, I cannot wait like there's a there's an experience when people Die like a natural death and they you know, whether they're on hospice or but they you know Don't die suddenly or traumatically but you know Just as birth is a natural process like death is a natural process and so oftentimes when people are dying I'm learning so much They will see people who have passed away, right? And, they will, hear their voice or see them in the room or whatever. And I heard one chaplain call that the welcoming committee of like when you're about ready to die. And you have, um, you know, you see people and it could be Jesus. Like some people see Jesus before they die. And I remember telling my husband, I'm like, Oh my gosh, John, I'm so excited. I'm going to ask Gina to be the, like the head of my welcoming. And he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I am great. Like sometimes I'm also like, I can get like all into these things. And I'm just so excited. I can't wait to go to heaven and like dance with Gina. I just envisioned her just like dancing and laughing and just having a And I just, I can't wait to go be with her and enjoy that experience with her and like have her show me around. And it's just so exciting, to think of, think of death in that way and think of Gina's life now in that way of like, she is good, she's doing great. And I get to, I get to work with her while she's. In heaven and I'm here and you know, she's advising me on my business and my work and then we get to celebrate together when I get there. Oh my gosh, you just made me so happy. My parents died in the same room and I just hadn't thought of that. My mom passed away very suddenly. She got up out of bed and went to the bathroom and then kind of fell. But my dad was on hospice and so he was in his bedroom when he passed as well. And just thinking of that welcoming committee, like I just can imagine my mom being there to greet him and being with him every step of the way and how beautiful that is gorgeous. Thank you for that gift. We're so welcome. Where can everyone find you before we get to our closing prayer tip and scripture verse? Yeah. So my. My company is Compassionate Coaching and so the website will be in the show notes I'm assuming and it's CompassionateCoaching. org. And then I'm also starting a new branch, of my work because I'm writing that book about anticipatory grief and Gina. And so, if you don't see anything at CompassionateCoaching. org about, about that, I don't have my new, my new site or anything up yet, but, You can always reach out to me on the website and ask if you're curious about my work with anticipatory grief and my book. And Erin, you're also on LinkedIn and Instagram too as well, is that right? That's right. That's right. Yeah. I'm most active on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn and I'm not active, but present on Instagram. I will link those for anyone who is looking to get in contact with Erin as well. And to close, I always ask for a prayer tip or a scripture verse. And I love that you gave me kind of just wisdom of the saints, and our blessed mothers. So you said you love what Our Lady of Guadalupe said to St. Juan Diego? Never let anything discourage you, nor depress you. Let nothing alter your heart, nor your behavior. Am I not here? Your mother? I wish people could see your face right now. Just even hearing that back, what's. What's come into mind? Oh my gosh. Like, I'm going back to the moment where that, that verse first hit me, or the, the excerpt first hit me. I was, um, right after 9 11, no, let me back up. I have a friend who was in the community of St. John, which is a religious order. The, the United States mother house is in Illinois, and I had met her in Illinois, and was in the van with a bunch of nuns and driving down to Mexico for their North American conference. And while we're there, 9 11 happens. And so here I am, like, staying with a bunch of sisters in Mexico. Um, you know, I, trying to figure out what the heck is happening, not having access to the internet and things like that. And we had, a trip scheduled to Mexico city to the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe. And the sisters and the brothers had put together like a little booklet of, you know, here's, here's some information about Juan Diego. He wasn't a saint at the time and Our Lady of Guadalupe. And I was reading on the bus ride there when just like literally and I like I was in a season of transition. I was. I had planned on moving to the DC area without having a job. And then here I am like, Oh my gosh, like I'm in a different country. I don't know how it's going to be getting back into the country that I live in. And then do I really want to go live right outside of DC? Like it just, it just felt like a really crazy time personally and globally. And I read that excerpt, that exact excerpt that you just read aloud. And I just was. Flooded. And I mean, flooded with peace, absolutely peaceful. And every time I try and remember it, and thank you for this. Cause now I'm going to, I'm going to have to put it like on my computer or something, every time I talk through that verse, it just is so calming to me. And we really, we don't need to worry about anything, anything. And just her words are so loving. And am I not here? Your mother, like. She is everything and to know that she is there here with us taking care of everything is just the sweetest balm I could ever ask for. That is such an incredible and amazing story. I don't, I need better words than incredible and amazing, but I just, hearing you talk about it, it just gives me the chills. God is so good and our blessed mother. I just. I mean, I know how she's impacted my life, particularly since my mom has passed away and even more so since my dad has passed. Um, just really, I felt like when my dad passed, I woke up one morning and it was just like, you have no mother but me, you have no father but me, just like thinking of the Blessed Mother and the Lord, and not that my parents aren't still very much a part of my life, but I just felt like I can let that go. My attention doesn't have to be divided. I can really just rest in the arms of the Blessed Mother and our Lord. And so often, as I'm doing these interviews, women are just bringing up how Mary has really just transformed, transformed their life and brought them peace. And it just It's incredible. I don't have any other words for it. Yeah. That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. You have no mother but me. You have no father but me. Thank you for sharing that. That's Wow. You have been such a gift. This has just been the easiest conversation and such a joy. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. And this has been, you're right, it's just been easy and lovely. And I'm just, I'm so glad to be connected to you and hear about all the wonderful things you're doing. And I'm, I'm honored to be here today. Thank you. Absolutely. And I will make sure to put all of your links in the show notes. Thanks. Beautiful souls, thank you again for journeying with me. If you have been blessed by this episode, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review. Be sure to screenshot it, share it on your social media stories, and don't forget to tag me on Instagram or Facebook at Kylie M. Hine. Stay persistent in prayer, protect your peace, and as always, share the light of Christ with everyone around you.