Didn't Read It
A guided tour through the stories that have shaped our culture and the world we live in.
Whether you’re a literature nerd, a romance aficionado, or just Not That Into Books, there’s no denying that the “great works” of literature have played a part in influencing everything from public policy to superhero movies. If you’ve ever wanted to know whether that pretentious guy on Twitter is correct in referring to news stories as “Orwellian,” wondered what stories inspired shows like Bridgerton, or just been curious about why, exactly, your high school English teacher was so insistent about assigning books by Dead White Guys, Didn’t Read It is the podcast for you.
Didn't Read It
True Crime and Spouse Disposal: Anthony Shaffer's "Murderer"
Infidelity! True crime obsessions! Mistaken identities! David Timberline joins us to discuss Anthony Shaffer's "Murderer," the consequences of getting too into true crime, and more!
If you enjoyed David, you can find him on his podcast, "Chasing Phantom," about the longest running Broadway shows in history.
As always, we are:
-Asking with all the love in our hearts that you leave us a review or tell a friend about the show <3
-Accepting friends @didntreadit on Instagram
-Accepting nemesis applications at didntreaditpod@gmail.com
-Thankful to Black Iris Social Club for use of their beautiful space
-Thankful to William Albritton for our incredible theme song, "Books 2.0"
-Thankful to CJ-O dot org for our closing music, "The Skeptic."
as Taylor Swift says, it's me.
>> Grace Todd:It's m. Me. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me.
>> David Timberline:Books, books, books, books. Bugs. Bugs.
>> Grace Todd:Hello, and welcome to Didn't Read it, the podcast about fictional crime.
>> David Timberline:Sure, sure. But is it truly fictional?
>> Grace Todd:I am your host, Grace Todd, Writer, editor, book Gremlin. And joining me again this week is a beloved pal of the pod.
>> David Timberline:Aw.
>> Grace Todd:Beloved David Timberline.
>> David Timberline:You know David means beloved. Did you know that?
>> Grace Todd:I did not know that. Did I just accidentally make, like, a deep cut Bible joke?
>> David Timberline:You did well. Or you did the chai tea thing where you just called me beloved. Beloved. I don'.
>> Grace Todd:That works too. You are beloved. Beloved.
>> David Timberline:Oh, gee, thanks.
>> Grace Todd:You're so nice. We had to say it twice. David.
>> David Timberline:Yes, ma'am.
>> Grace Todd:How are you? And who are you?
>> David Timberline:Who the are you? I am doing well. I'm recovering from a cold, so there's a little bit of gravel in my voice, which hopefully lends character. I don't know.
>> Grace Todd:Sure, yeah, absolutely.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. or irritates those who's like, clear your damn throat. I am a writer, not editor like you. I am a freelance writer for Style Weekly magazine. That is not a magazine anymore. Anyway, I will get to the point, really. and I also do a podcast called Chasing Phantom, which you have been on.
>> Grace Todd:Have.
>> David Timberline:Episode just came out recently about Sleuth. which dovetails nicely with what we're going to talk about today, I guess.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah. Well, so that episode directly caused this episode.
>> David Timberline:Oh, okay.
>> Grace Todd:Because when you and I were doing our episode about Sleuth, I, being the person that I am, went and checked out a printed copy of it from the library because I wanted to see it in print.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:I am a book person.
>> David Timberline:Right. Does it really exist in the firmament of the universe?
>> Grace Todd:and then I derailed your podcast in part by talking about all of the differences between the printed version and the movie version.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Which I could cut all the Call that shit out. So that was great.
>> Grace Todd:but right next to the copy of Sleuth that they had at the library was another play by the same playwright, Anthony Shaffer, called Murderer. And I, you know, I was standing there in the stacks. It was suitably atmospheric. And I picked up Murderer and started flipping through it and was like, what the am I reading?
>> David Timberline:And did somebody in a trench coat, like, peer around the corner, like, what is she reading?
>> Grace Todd:I wish. no, there are no flashers at my library that I'm aware of, but I went ahead and checked this one out, too. And sat down and read it because I was partly just curious about what else Anthony Shaffer had done. And what I discovered was a very strange, very interesting little play that despite being originally performed for the first time In, I believe, 1975, and the copyright of this is 1979, I guess that's when it was published in bound form.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Is weirdly relevant to kind of the true crime craze that I believe is kind of currently post peak, maybe. Yeah. Like trailing off culturally.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:Because this is in part a play about a true crime. Obsessive.
>> David Timberline:Wow.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:This is so intriguing. when you said that you had found this, I was intrigued just because Anthony Shaffer is not. He's kind of a one trick pony in the whole theater world. I mean, he wrote Sleuth, which was this big hit.
>> Grace Todd:Right.
>> David Timberline:And then kind of disappeared. Well, he didn't disappear. He went and did screenplays more. That was more his thing after this.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:And he wrote, I guess, other plays, but none of them really did anything. So the fact that there's one out there that is intriguing is like, oh, fascinating.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah. So I don't think this was terribly successful.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And it was funny because I was trying to find reviews of this play. Couldn't find much. Stumbled on reviews for another play that I think he did even later, Whodunit, that was being panned pretty aggressively.
>> David Timberline:Yeah, I think that was Whodunit, which. Yeah, I also heard about, which is kind of like, you know, the one hit wonder bands that you hear their songs later and you're like, but didn't they do that really good thing once? I think that was the tone of the reviews I read about Whodunit, at least.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah. Well, and he, he did write the Wicker man, like the original Wicker Man.
>> David Timberline:Hm.
>> Grace Todd:Which many consider to be like a phenomenal sort of cult classic film. And he did a Hitchcock movie.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. He did Frenzy.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah. Which I have not. I'm not familiar with.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:Is it any good?
>> David Timberline:Oh, yeah, it's really. It's a. It's a freaky one. It's. Yeah, it's cool.
>> Grace Todd:And then as we mentioned, for anyone who might have listened to our episode about Sleuth, he had a significantly more successful brother who wrote Amadeus and Equus M and had a significantly sort of higher profile career.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:So bummer for Anthony. He got a little bit. He got a little bit eclipsed.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. And this, I don't know, this is when I was also investigating or looking into Peter Shaffer. One of the weird things About Anthony Shaffer is that he ended up marrying. He was married like three times. Three or four times. He ended up marrying Sean Connery's ex wife. Actually, that was his third wife who he then cheated on. And then there was a big custody bail or a big, estate battle when he died. I don't know. He seemed like he had some pretty up things going on with the women in his life. I don't know. I don't know a whole lot of details, but from the little bit that I found out, you know, you get married three times, maybe you're president, but still in general, it seems like maybe you're not working your relationships really well.
>> Grace Todd:Well, and that, that's. I'm glad you bring that up because one of the sort of central questions at the heart of this play for me is whether or not the play itself hates women.
>> David Timberline:Ooh. Ouch. Okay.
>> Grace Todd:I think that you could argue either way.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And. And with pretty good evidence on both sides.
>> David Timberline:Oh, wow. And so, yeah, bring me in.
>> Grace Todd:Let's. Let's dive in.
>> David Timberline:Yes, please.
>> Grace Todd:Act one. And now here. So this is part of what made me bring this play home. Okay, listen to this. 30 minutes should elapse between the start of the play and the first spoken words. Open up. Police.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:So the first 30 minutes of this play happen in complete silence.
>> David Timberline:Wow.
>> Grace Todd:And it opens on a studio living room. The studio living room of Norman Bartholomew, which is in a small village in Dorset, England. And it notes that it is, you know, littered with painters, paraphernalia, canvases, a gas stove.
>> David Timberline:I'm getting Dr. Seuss at this point.
>> Grace Todd:But just from the name, I wish. And you know, it sort of outlines the. The layout of you. There's a bathroom, there's a living room, there's a sort of sofa and Norman Bartholomew. As the curtain rises, it says, Norman Bartholomew, a good looking, smooth man dressed casually in slacks and jumper, is standing in an easel, painting. Standing behind him, watching him paint, is an attractive girl in her early 20s. She leaves him and gets a magazine from the sofa, sits in the armchair, facing towards Norman. He stops painting, pours two drinks. The bottle is empty. He gets another one from the cellar, pours the drinks and goes to the kitchen to put water in them. He gives the girl her drink and returns to his easel. He regards her slyly from time to time as she starts to sip her drink. Finally, m. She drains it and after a pause, there is a crash as the glass slips from her fingers and she slumps unconscious. He crosses rapidly to the chair takes a scarf from the back of it. This he puts carefully around the girl's throat and pulls it tight. With much grunting and straining. He maintains the pressure for a full minute. And so he strangles her. Takes her pulse. And then he burns the scarf, carries her to the sofa, takes all of her clothes off, wraps her in a blanket.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And then. And this is interesting, cause there's, Somewhere in here is a hat trick, I will tell you that much. And it's really hard to tell where exactly in the stage directions it's supposed to happen. But anyway, and again, keeping in mind there's an audience.
>> David Timberline:Yes.
>> Grace Todd:Just watching this happening in total silence, he pulls the teeth out of her head and puts them in a dish and pours acid on them.
>> David Timberline:Excuse me. Huh?
>> Grace Todd:Uh-huh. He carries her up to the bathroom and puts her in the tub. And then there's this whole long sequence where he is dismembering the body using a saw.
>> David Timberline:Oh my God.
>> Grace Todd:And a kitchen knife.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And he, like, completely takes her body apart, puts it into bags, takes her head, kisses it playfully on the nose.
>> David Timberline:Oh my God.
>> Grace Todd:Puts it in the gas stove. I mean, it's like a very, very thorough and grisly dismemberment.
>> David Timberline:Yikes.
>> Grace Todd:and in the middle of it all, he stops and takes a roast beef out of the oven, makes himself a sandwich, and carries the sandwich back up to the bathroom where he is doing all the work dismembering her. And the sandwich at one point falls in the bath and he, like, picks it up and it's covered with blood and he, like, almost takes a bite of it and then puts it back on the plate and like, slides it under the tub. Oh, man, there's an electric drill. It's gruesome. Oh, my God. So he. And again, 30 solid minutes of this.
>> David Timberline:Sure, yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And he finishes dismembering her. He puts all of the pieces in the wood in the. In the gas stove.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:He clean, like, scrubs the tub. Clean, like, strips down, burns his clothes, like, does the whole thing, right.
>> David Timberline:Uh-huh. While we're all watching.
>> Grace Todd:Uh-huh. And it says. Suddenly the doorbell sounds. Norman emerges from the bedroom wearing a sweater and slacks and looks anxiously towards the front door. And then at the stove, he stands indecisively, doing nothing. The doorbell sounds again. Impatiently, slowly, he goes towards the front door and is about to open it when he checks himself and looks round to examine the room for any signs of his recent Activity. As the doorbell sounds again, he sees the blood stained apron hanging over the banisters. M. And then the first actual spoken lines in the play after 30 minutes are as noted. Open up, police.
>> David Timberline:Oh, wow.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:Okay. You know, you're going through all that, and I am. I've never directed a play myself, but I've talked to a lot of directors and I am thinking about a director reading through that, being like, how do. What the f. I can't. You're asking me. I'm gonna. What? You need me to.
>> Grace Todd:Are you serious?
>> David Timberline:I'm just imagining. That is a cavalcade of directorial problems all listed in a, you know, a, very. A very extended list.
>> Grace Todd:It seems like it would be really complicated to stage.
>> David Timberline:Absolutely. Yeah. From the very beginning. I mean, asking somebody, you know, obviously a live person to go through the emotions of drinking something and then having to choke them believably on stage for a minute. I mean, that step one is hard enough before you even get into the electric drill and kitchen knife and other things that you're going to. Oh, man, I'm sorry. I can imagine Shaffer taking this. This to one of his director friends saying, hey, I got this great idea. And him being like, get the hell out of my office.
>> Grace Todd:And yet it has been, you know, it continues to be staged. I think it was produced not that long ago, I'm sure.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. There's somebody on ketamine somewhere going, like, I know what I'm gonna do. This is gonna be great.
>> Grace Todd:And so Bartholomew opens the door for Sergeant Stenning.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And Sergeant Stenning asks if he can come in and establish, you know, asks for Norman. Bartholomew's name. And they sort of start chatting in the way that you do when cops show up, you know.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Casual, really nonchalant.
>> Grace Todd:And Norman, you know, obviously is like, what are you doing here? What can I do for you?
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:And, Sergeant Stunning says, it's a little difficult to explain, sir, and I trust you won't take offense, but, well, you see, we've got to investigate all complaints, even if they are. And he sort of trails off. Bartholomew says, yes. And he says, well, fanciful, like barmy. M. A bit out to lunch.
>> David Timberline:It's important to realize that this is a British writer.
>> Grace Todd:Yes.
>> David Timberline:And this is a British setting. Right?
>> Grace Todd:Yes.
>> David Timberline:So they're barmy over there. yes.
>> Grace Todd:And immediately it is obvious that Bartholomew is being sort of barbed and condescending to this sergeant. Right. And there's some. Like he's giving him a hard time.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:So he starts. You know, he's like, oh, have I been pissing on the neighbor's sunflowers again? That kind of thing. The vicar found the fly buttons I put in the plate last Sunday. You know, perhaps it's the vicar you should be interrogating. I'm absolutely convinced he spends his afternoons on the common disguised as a tramp, flashing the secondary school girls.
>> David Timberline:Jeez.
>> Grace Todd:But Stedding ultimately explains that Mrs. Ramage, the neighbor, has.
>> David Timberline:I'm just. I'm chuckling over the name. I'm going to get past that.
>> Grace Todd:I am always tickled by how tickled Americans are at English names. So Norman has a big picture window, and it turns out that his neighbor, his nosy English old lady neighbor, of course, has called the police to be like, I just watched my neighbor strangle and dismember his wife through the window. I mean, well, obviously she didn't see the dismemberment because that was in the bathroom, but she saw him strangle his wife, and there was blood and.
>> David Timberline:Okay, so we're to assume that not only was this act open to us, the audience, but to the entire English countryside.
>> Grace Todd:Yes, exactly.
>> David Timberline:Nice. There's a good murderer for you.
>> Grace Todd:Uh-huh. And Bartholomew responds by saying, my God, who'd have thought old Mrs. Ramage was a peeping Tom? And at one point, he breaks into. He breaks quietly into song to himself, saying, I'll dismember you in all the old familiar places.
>> David Timberline:Okay?
>> Grace Todd:And so he's being very, like, jaunty about this whole thing. And Stenning is deeply unamused and asks him not to sing. And this is where we get the sort of first pivot of, like, what Bartholomew's deal is, because he says, why not? Both Wood and Billings were recorded as having sung mightily after they were apprehended for hewing up John Hayes. And Stenning asks what the hell he's talking about.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And he says, the pawnbroker John Hayes killed with a coal hatchet under the Bronze Head Inn, New Bond street, at the instigation of his wife. It was all a bit before your time, I expect. 1725, his wife Catherine boiled the flesh off the decapitated head to make it unrecognizable. And Messrs. Wood and Billings carried it in a bucket to the Thames near Lambeth Bridge, where they threw it in. It was all to no avail. However, the head was recognized and they were caught. Which only goes to show, Sergeant, that if you want to get away with spouse disposal, you've simply got to make the body unrecognizable.
>> David Timberline:So he's a fanboy. Is that what we're, that's what we're getting out of this. He's a little murder fanboy.
>> Grace Todd:He's like a big. He's a true crime nut.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:There's, you know, there's more back and forth. The play is dryly pretty funny.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. That is one thing that I guess Shaffer was known for is insert that he was brought on to some of those, some of the mysteries that he wrote the screenplays for was to like insert a little contemporary humor, you know, make it a little hipper, tee hee in the 70s 80s kind of way.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah. So they have, they have a sort of a. Ah. Back and forth.
>> David Timberline:And I'm assuming that the cop's having nothing of it at this point.
>> Grace Todd:Absolutely not. Yeah. He's trying to get him to like focus, basically. And essentially, you know, concludes with, I'd like to take a look around. Let's see if we can't find a boiled head or two.
>> David Timberline:Ooh. Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Uh-huh. And that's when Bartholomew kind of bridles and is like you, you know, you can't believe all this rubbish. Like, do I look like the sort of man who'd carve up his misses.
>> David Timberline:And Stenning, you're a white man, dude. Come on.
>> Grace Todd:Right, well. And Stenning says, in my opinion, there's no one who couldn't answer to that description.
>> David Timberline:Hm.
>> Grace Todd:Right. And so this is the sort of Stenning thinks anyone can be a murderer.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:And Bartholomew, of course, is obsessed with murderers. And so this is sort of our first dichotomy. Right. Is that Bartholomew doesn't think anyone can be a murderer because true crime obsessives. One of the sort of implications of being a true crime obsessive, whether you like it or not, is that murderers are exceptional.
>> David Timberline:Right. They're worthy of your note.
>> Grace Todd:They're special, they're different. They're not. They couldn't be just anybody.
>> David Timberline:Right. That's why the stories are all about them instead of the victims. And that's why we're at
>> Grace Todd:And so Stenning starts asking questions about where exactly Bartholomew's wife is. And Bartholomew says that she's out of town and we learn that she is a gynecological surgeon. So she does like caesarean sections and things of that nature.
>> David Timberline:Wow. Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And she is currently off at a hospital somewhere else, which is why we.
>> David Timberline:Have all these sharp implements Around. Watch out there, Detective. Ooh. Oops.
>> Grace Todd:And Stunning asks when she's coming back. And Bartholomew says that he's not sure he's expecting her back at all.
>> David Timberline:Ooh.
>> Grace Todd:Because they've been having marital trouble.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Mm What M he says is, well, I suppose it's no secret in the village that my wife and I don't particularly get on recently. She's been hinting that she's found another feller and is thinking of leaving me.
>> David Timberline:I love the idea of everybody, you know, everyone in the town is talking about this guy.
>> Grace Todd:Everyone in the village knows that my wife and I hate each other. And Stenning asks, of course, how he reacted to this news. And Bartholomew again, who reminds me very much of the older man in Sleuth. It's that same kind of wavelength of humor and that same kind of wavelength of like, the way it's written. You can tell he's supposed to be like, slipping in and out of like little voices and impressions and singing little snatches of music to himself. Very much the way that the guy in Sleuth does.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:And so this one, you know, it says simulated passion. And he says, blind brute jealousy. I'd rather cut her up in the bath than let another man possess her.
>> David Timberline:M. And he's just playing. He's just playing. Not understanding the severity of the situation here.
>> Grace Todd:He's just doing a tee. Cause he definitely didn't cut anybody up.
>> David Timberline:That's right.
>> Grace Todd:And Stenning insists on going to the bathroom because this is where Mrs. Ramage said, you know, she carried a dead body sort of off. Off stage left.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:From her perspective. And when he goes into the bathroom, he finds the sandwich.
>> David Timberline:Ooh. Oh, the bloody sandwich.
>> Grace Todd:The blood soaked sandwich.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And Bartholomew tries to sort of, he tries to kind of tough through it by taking a bite of the sandwich.
>> David Timberline:Oh, yum.
>> Grace Todd:which, he gags on. And then Stunning takes it from him and bags it.
>> David Timberline:Okay, you can tell me to shut up at this point, but we're supposed to believe that everything that has happened up to this point is legitimate or not. Okay, well, I will keep my modern day sensibilities to myself at this point because I feel I'm being tricked here. I think there's something on here going. Something a little tricky.
>> Grace Todd:What is that voice?
>> David Timberline:It's my deputy dog or something. I don't know.
>> Grace Todd:Where did that come from? Why is your internal skeptic like a, befuddled Gold. Gold binder. Like, I don't know, there's golden in there hills. And there's a trick in this here play.
>> David Timberline:That's right. You can't pull this one over on me.
>> Grace Todd:What's wrong with you? Oh, my God.
>> David Timberline:Because I'm just like Norman, I guess, doing one of my funny little voices.
>> Grace Todd:So Bartholomew tries to tough it out by taking a bite of the sandwich. But he gags and stunning takes it from him and bags it up. And then Stunning, essentially, like, brushes past him, strides over to the stove, opens the stove, oh. Gasps. And then he grabs a pair of fire tongs standing up against the wall with these, he drags out the head and lets it fall on the floor, where it rolls about, smoking horribly. He manages to beat out the sparks and the hair, which are causing the smoke, then drags out a partially burnt leg. Bartholomew watches him, horror struck, backed up against a wall, apparently incapable of speech. But suddenly he starts babbling wildly. I had to do it, Sergeant. Can't you see that? She was always on at me, nagging, never leaving me alone, insanely jealous of everybody I might happen to speak to night after night, never any sleep. Who was I with? Who was my lover? Creating scenes in public, hounding me wherever I went, making me a laughingstock. You do see, don't you? I had no choice. Bartholomew falls on his knees, sobbing. Stenning, who has been examining the head and Legal, regards him curiously, then turns back to the task of removing parts of the body from the furnace. Eventually, he picks up the head by the hair and holds it aloft, very deliberately. He takes a palette knife from a side table and knocks the skull with gives off a dull, hollow sound. Alternatively, he can pop out a glass eye so that it rolls across the floor. And Stenning says, is this some sort of sick joke? This isn't a body. It's some kind of dummy or waxwork.
>> David Timberline:See, I knew there was something tricky going on here.
>> Grace Todd:And Bartholomew explains that it is a dummy that he made himself and filled with fake blood and gore, viscera, because he is reenacting famous murders, okay? And this is his hobby.
>> David Timberline:And. And for whose benefit? Because there's nobody there, right? Except for us in the audience.
>> Grace Todd:uh-huh.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:So he explains that he was playing Buck Ruxton, the Parsi doctor who in 1935, murdered his mistress and spent a whole night carefully cutting her up in a bath, draining her of blood and making her up into neat little bundles for disposal. And stunning is like. So you're play acting a, murder? Why?
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And Bartholomew says, it's very simple. I Wanted to know what it felt like actually doing it. You know, the fear of a sudden collar, of telltale blood on clothes, of identification through teeth or jewelry.
>> David Timberline:Mm Relatable, Very relatable. You know? I gotta say, just to interject, I'm having this visions in my head again of the director talking to his props master. Okay. It's gotta look like our head. Like a real head with hair. Charred. A little charred. Maybe a glass eye or two. Needs to roll. We need a little rolling action. Like props master being like, get the out of my eyes.
>> Grace Todd:It does seem like it would be a real challenge. it does make me wonder. Not wonder. It seems to me that even before he was writing for the screen, maybe Anthony was writing for the screen.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Yep, I think so.
>> Grace Todd:Like this, this would be very easy to film on. Film sure would be very hard to stage on a stage.
>> David Timberline:Practical, I mean, it's all practical effects on the stage, fellas. Ooh.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah. And so Bartholomew explains that this is a hobby he's had for quite a while. M. It says, I like to play famous murderers. So far I've been Frederick Henry Seddon, the Tollington park killer, who disposed of his tenant with arsenic. And George Chapman, who poisoned three of his so called wives with strychnine. And Henry Wainwright, the Whitechapel Road murderer.
>> David Timberline:Wow. And this is 75, huh? Uh-huh. Wow. That is like. Yeah. That is a big jump on the whole true crime like bonanza.
>> Grace Todd:Ah, yeah. Well, and it's interesting because it's, you know, the British love their murder fiction.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:And that is what Sleuth is playing on.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:That is what this is playing on. And this is when you and I got together to do the Sleuth episode. I was like, these, these are companion pieces. And they really are.
>> David Timberline:Yeah, yeah.
>> Grace Todd:But this is so much more. It's not cozy, it's not genteel. This is not Agatha Christie he's obsessed with.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. It's the actual killers. Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And like pretty gruesomely.
>> David Timberline:Oh yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And so, you know, he's explaining how like, you know, the Henry Wainwright, the Whitechapel Road Murderer, who, you know, his, his big mistake was using chloride of lime instead of quick lime, which had the effect of preserving the body of his mistress rather than destroying it. And Stenning is like, and you're reconstructing this? And he says, indeed I did. But that wasn't the best bit that came when, like him, I took a cab across London with the disinterred remains Wrapped in brown paper in the company of an unsuspecting ballet dancer smoking a cigar to disguise the smell. Well, in my case, I actually used five pounds of ancient bloaters to simulate the odor of human putrefaction. And the ballet dancer was really more of a soho stripper, but the effect was much the same.
>> David Timberline:Oh, man. This is a sick dude.
>> Grace Todd:Yes. And it goes on like this. I won't read you all of it, but, like, Stenning is horrified.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:He's like, this is I. What is wrong with you? And the more that stanning objects, the more Bartholomew kind of like, he's just going on and on and on and on. And you can tell that he's got this, like, encyclopedic knowledge of all of these murders.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And stunning. Finally interjects enough to be like, I deal with real murder, and it's not fun and it's not cute. And Bartholomew sort of bridles again, and stenning finally cuts him off and says, do not continue to play with death. Mr. Bartholomew, I know beyond a shadow of doubt that most murder victims spend all their lives searching for their murderers. Be warned. You do not know the game you play at all. Well, stop in time.
>> David Timberline:Murder victims spend their whole lives looking for murderers.
>> Grace Todd:That so? Yeah, that's what he says. And that line is gonna come up again, and I am not entirely sure what to make of it.
>> David Timberline:That's. Yeah, it does. I mean, does it just flat out make sense? Not make sense. Or is it referring to people wanting to be murdered on some subconscious level?
>> Grace Todd:I don't think that's what it's saying. I think it has. And I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, But I think what he is getting at or the thread that he's pulling on Is that you can set things into motion that I think. And, I wonder if part of what he is saying is that people who are murdered often wind up before they are actually murdered in a position that they should not be in.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:And could maybe get themselves out of.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:And again, I'm not saying that's what I believe. I think. But I think maybe that is one of the kind of quieter theses of the play is like, if anyone can be a murderer, then anyone can be murdered.
>> David Timberline:Right. yeah.
>> Grace Todd:Which, does lead to the conclusion that there are many, many little factors that go into a murder.
>> David Timberline:Right. And that it's like a murder is a rube goldberg machine, that the victim, just as well as the murderer, is setting off that first Marble or pebble or something that starts the whole contraction into motion that ends up with the murder happening.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah, I think that might be part of the thesis here.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And, we'll check back in about that when we get to the end of the play.
>> David Timberline:Okay. It's also interesting. Another interesting companion to Sleuth is that bit about, police officer, somebody from law enforcement saying, I deal with the real thing, because I remember from Sleuth, the detective who's actually being played by.
>> Grace Todd:The detective who's not a detective.
>> David Timberline:But at the time he says, oh, yeah, in your books. To wike in. Sleuth is basically saying, you know, your books, detectives are idiots all the time, and they can't figure out the stories. And actually, it's, you know, we're a lot smarter than you think. It's that. That reality irreality or, you know, unreality that people who are making things up don't realize what's actually happening and how things actually work in the real world.
>> Grace Todd:Right.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:So Stenning, sort of gives him this lecture, and Bartholomew says something irreverent, and Stenning's like, well, it's clear you won't be told. I'm gonna go tell your neighbor who you scared half to death, that everything is fine.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And he basically slams the door and he's gone. All right, now, here's the thing. If you remember, we have now proven that the body in the stove was a dummy, Right? But there was a real living woman right there exactly at the beginning of that.
>> David Timberline:So unresolved is whether that was a real person in his mind, that he was projected. He was, because he wants to be in the m. In the, He wants to relive these cases and be as these murderers. He made that that was his reality. That he killed her and deconstructed her, or that it was a real person. And that somewhere, like you said, there's some hat trick that happens where there's a shift or a switch. So, okay.
>> Grace Todd:Stenning storms off. Norman steps into the unseen bedroom and returns with the naked and still unconscious body of his mistress. Okay, Millie.
>> David Timberline:All right. Okay. You're gonna have to be naked in this scene. you have no lines. You're just dead.
>> Grace Todd:Okay, well, Millie wakes up.
>> David Timberline:Oh, hello.
>> Grace Todd:Hello, Millie.
>> David Timberline:Hey. That whole choking thing. Nah, not a big deal.
>> Grace Todd:And she is like, what happened? And she's like, what? You know, what happened? What the hell's been going on? And he says quite a lot, actually. A whole rather touching charade. In fact, I must say, your performance, though lacking somewhat in animation, was most convincing. And what we discover is that he drugged her. Okay. as part of this game that he was playing. And that he is convinced that he has now set into motion what will be the perfect murder.
>> David Timberline:Oh.
>> Grace Todd:Because what he has done is he staged all of that with the intention of his neighbor seeing it. So now he thinks that when he kills his wife for real m. That if his neighbor sees anything, when she calls the cops, they'll be like, oh, that's just.
>> David Timberline:That's just his funny hobby.
>> Grace Todd:That's just Norman the murder weirdo.
>> David Timberline:Oh, geez. And also, this is his girlfriend. Did you say girlfriend?
>> Grace Todd:This is his mistress.
>> David Timberline:Okay. Cause we're in England and everybody's got one of those. Right?
>> Grace Todd:So Norman's a, Norman's not a good dude.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Okay. Do we have any idea of his 9 to 5? Is he, like an, accountant or something?
>> Grace Todd:He's a painter.
>> David Timberline:Oh, okay.
>> Grace Todd:He is an actor. That is. That is his. He is a painter.
>> David Timberline:All right. Okay.
>> Grace Todd:An artistic type.
>> David Timberline:I see.
>> Grace Todd:And we find out that Millie has been sort of waiting impatiently for him to murder Mrs. Bartholomew.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:So that the two of them can be together.
>> David Timberline:All right.
>> Grace Todd:Because Mrs. Bartholomew doesn't believe in divorce.
>> David Timberline:Jesus, Millie, you can do better. Come on.
>> Grace Todd:Well, and one of the things that I'm wondering is, did. When did the UK get no fault divorce?
>> David Timberline:Oh, I have no idea.
>> Grace Todd:Good Lord. Did they not? Okay, this might be wrong, but it looks like they might not have gotten full no fault divorce until the 2000s.
>> David Timberline:Really?
>> Grace Todd:So.
>> David Timberline:Whoa. Okay.
>> Grace Todd:It is important to remember in all of these works of fiction, when people are being murdered all willy nilly because they refuse to get a divorce, that part of the problem is that the.
>> David Timberline:Legal system had him fucked over a little bit.
>> Grace Todd:Well, because one of you had to. The thing about not having no fault divorce is you have to prove a cause for divorce, and then one person is at fault, and it becomes a whole. It's a scandal, and it ruins your public reputation. You have to be publicly established to be an adulterer or whatever.
>> David Timberline:An abuser, a philanderer. Yes.
>> Grace Todd:And so a lot of the time in works of fiction like this, when you've got a husband being like, she won't consent to a divorce, there is an extent to which you are supposed to read that as possibly being a lie because he doesn't want to make himself at fault for the divorce.
>> David Timberline:Gotcha.
>> Grace Todd:And somebody has to be at fault for the divorce. Does that make sense?
>> David Timberline:Oh, yeah. Yep. Because things can't just not work out. I mean, come on, people. It took us centuries to figure that out.
>> Grace Todd:And now we're trying to get rid of it again.
>> David Timberline:But then again, women were property, so, you know, I guess I forget that part too.
>> Grace Todd:Yes. And Norman wants to dispose of his property.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:So that he can get younger, hotter property.
>> David Timberline:Oh, God. we've gotten so much better.
>> Grace Todd:At least temporarily.
>> David Timberline:That was meant totally ironically.
>> Grace Todd:And so we find out that while this is all been, you know, set into motion with the ultimate goal of murdering his wife, the thing about him, like, dressing up and play acting these murders is very real.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And Millie has been a sort of half willing cast member in these little productions he's putting on for the benefit of just himself.
>> David Timberline:Oh, boy.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:There's funner kinks. I, promise you. There really is.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah. And so they go back and forth. And basically Millie is upset because he has been promising to murder his wife for quite a while and he is not doing it quickly enough.
>> David Timberline:I know. You just can't count on a British man to get his wife into the stove quick enough.
>> Grace Todd:He's a failure. He's disappointing her. And they have a, back and forth. And Millie is trying to get him to explain to her how he's going to do it. And he is being cagey because he says he doesn't want to make her an accessory. she doesn't believe that he's actually going to do it. And there's a farcical little bit where they're talking about different methods. And he almost murders her by accident.
>> David Timberline:Hello.
>> Grace Todd:With a, like, He basically turns the gas on and has like a piece of tubing. And he's showing her how it's going to happen, but he gets distracted and she can't get away from it fast enough. And she actually loses consciousness.
>> David Timberline:Oh, good. That, you know, always a problem when you're playing around with murders. Sometimes accidentally murders happen.
>> Grace Todd:Yes, exactly. He revives her and she's like, I seem to be spending a lot of this evening unconscious.
>> David Timberline:That's a good line.
>> Grace Todd:And so they go back and forth and ultimately he shoos her off. He's like, I'm going to do it for real this time. It's definitely gonna happen. Everything is in motion. And she's like, I don't believe you. And I especially don't believe you. Cause you won't tell me how you're gonna do it. M And he's like, well, tonight is the annual Watercolorists dinner. So I need you to leave.
>> David Timberline:Dang. I didn't get my invite this year.
>> Grace Todd:The Dorchester Watercolor Society. It's their big do.
>> David Timberline:Oh. Famously.
>> Grace Todd:And so he's gonna go out and get wasted.
>> David Timberline:Cool.
>> Grace Todd:They get into a bit of a fight, you know.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Because she's disappointed in him, so she storms off and he leaves. And that is the end of the first scene.
>> David Timberline:Wow. Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:Is that Act 1? It sounds like a good pivot. No, just the first scene.
>> Grace Todd:That is just the first scene.
>> David Timberline:Wow.
>> Grace Todd:But the second scene is very brief.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:So it's later, the same evening, Bartholomew comes back from his Watercolor Society thing. he's quite drunk.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And his wife is home and she's not supposed to be back yet.
>> David Timberline:Oh.
>> Grace Todd:And it says the stage is in darkness except for the bathroom, which is lit. Through the semi opaque glass of the door, we can see the distorted shadow of Elizabeth moving around inside. The taps are running and she walks from the wash basin to the bath carrying a bottle. She shakes the contents into the bath and stirs the contents around violently before turning off the taps. The radio is playing My Way. Bartholomew comes in and he sees his wife's fur coat and suitcase sitting in the hall.
>> David Timberline:Fur coat. Those are the days.
>> Grace Todd:I know. And Elizabeth calls, you know, he makes a noise and she calls down and says, is that you, Norman? And asks him to bring her a brandy. Then it says, he says, of course. That's it. George Joseph Smith. The Brides in the Bath. Murder. Perfect. Bessie Mundy at Herne Bay. Alice Burnham at Blackpool. He crept up behind them and slid their heads down under the water and held them there. Afterwards, he played the harmonium. Nearer My God to thee. What could have been more tasteful?
>> David Timberline:This guy. Like a Wikipedia entry on killers.
>> Grace Todd:He starts to take his clothes off.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:So he undresses just down to his shorts with his kitties. Yep, exactly. He tosses back the brandy himself and starts to go up the staircase, flexing his fingertips.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Curtain.
>> David Timberline:End of scene.
>> Grace Todd:Act two.
>> David Timberline:Ooh. Well, I don't know. I'm on the edge of my seat. I still think this sounds impossible to stage, but, as a work of fiction, it is pulling me along.
>> Grace Todd:All right. You ready for Act 2?
>> David Timberline:Absolutely.
>> Grace Todd:Act 2 continues. Where Act 1 stopped, Norman stands outside the bathroom door, irresolute. With sudden resolve, he cautiously opens the bathroom door. To its full extent, we see him approach the bath, capped head almost overlapped by bubbles. And through the swirling clouds of steam, we watch the whole murder. The head pushed under the wildly threshing legs, the water slopped over in the struggle, and then, after an appreciable time, the cessation of all movement.
>> David Timberline:Yet another murder. We have to stage on, produce. On stage.
>> Grace Todd:I love how much the staging is stressing you out.
>> David Timberline:I can't help it.
>> Grace Todd:So he leaves the bathroom, he's satisfied she's dead. He leaves the bathroom and he says, I've done it. I've actually done it. I felt the life force slip away under my hands. I'm a murderer. I've joined the alien clan and set my face against the world. Norman Bartholomew, are you really one of those very special intrepid men who are prepared to be damned?
>> David Timberline:Oof.
>> Grace Todd:Have you, in fact, achieved the most abandoned guilt, which is the last and most irresistible challenge to everlasting goodness? I wonder. Perhaps shame will come seeping in as the days pass to erode my belief in the impossibility of forgiveness and truly damn me. I shall have to wait and see.
>> David Timberline:This is his soliloquy here that he's just saying to the. To the audience.
>> Grace Todd:Uh-huh.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:It says he's in a champagne mood. He's bubbly, he's excitable.
>> David Timberline:Oh, yeah, okay.
>> Grace Todd:And he starts, you know, he says, now, let's see how to affect the disappearing trick. The remote moorland grave, the weighted corpse in the canal, the unclaimed trunk at Victoria station. And he finally concludes that the cellar is still the safest option.
>> David Timberline:Okay. Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And so he goes down into the cellar, which we cannot see. It says that you just. You sort of hear him offstage. He's talking to himself the whole time. And he's doing the thing again where he's, like, slipping into accents, so he's, like, having a dialogue with himself.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Where he's in a parody voice. Now, Inspector do, perhaps you would be kind enough to tell the members of the jury exactly what it was you found in the cellar of number 39 Hilltop Crescent. And then he switches to the inspector's voice. We found portions of a woman's body wrapped in a piece of pajama jacket. The head was missing, and to the best of my knowledge, still is. And he's going back and he's, you know. Have you been able to form any opinion as to the cause of death? Death. And the doorbell starts to ring.
>> David Timberline:oh, hello, Detective.
>> Grace Todd:And he doesn't hear it. And so Sergeant Stenning lets himself into the house. Uh-huh
>> David Timberline:Okay. I thought we'd. I thought he'd be back again.
>> Grace Todd:I'm shocked.
>> David Timberline:Is Michael Caine playing him? That would be the best.
>> Grace Todd:That would be great. And he's still in the base. He's still in the cellar, like, talking to himself about killing his wife.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Because he's. He's clearly doing, like, a little radio drama for himself, you know, as you do. And, he's coming back up the stairs and he's. Bartholomew is saying, I killed my wife because of my great love for the lady who honored me by consenting to become my mistress. I expect no mercy and deserve none. I am guilty and now have no recourse other than to accept my fate. So he's. He's reciting speeches that other murderers made.
>> David Timberline:Oh, okay.
>> Grace Todd:When they were tried. He's like reciting a trial.
>> David Timberline:Wow.
>> Grace Todd:and he walks past Staining without seeing him at first. And Stunning says, what are you guilty of, Mr. Bartholomew? Oops.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Hello.
>> Grace Todd:And so what follows is an admirably tense scene.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:Where the body is still in the bathtub. Stenning has apparently, it seems, turned up just to,
>> David Timberline:See what murder we're doing today.
>> Grace Todd:Just to say, hey.
>> David Timberline:Right. Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And kind of coaxes Bartholomew into, like, giving him a beer.
>> David Timberline:Oh.
>> Grace Todd:And essentially it seems that Stenning has come back now that he's off the clock to be like, I would really like to try and convince you that these m. Murder games that you're playing are not going to end well. Something bad is going to happen if you keep doing this.
>> David Timberline:Right. This is the modern day commentary on true crime through Sergeant Stenning.
>> Grace Todd:Very much so. Yeah. And it's implied that Bartholomew drove home drunk. They, have a back and forth, which again, Bartholomew is like reeling off all of these different true crime cases and all of these details. And. And the central tension, of course, is that he is drinking a beer and Bartholomew is terrified that he's going to ask to use the bathroom.
>> David Timberline:Of course.
>> Grace Todd:And he finally does. Bartholomew's like, it's broken. Sure, it's broken. You can't use it.
>> David Timberline:But with the template that he's already sent, could he just be like, oh, yeah, that's just another one of my props in there. Don't mind the corpse in the bathroom. That's just another, you know, crazy model.
>> Grace Todd:That's a good question. Clearly he wasn't bold enough, you know? Uh-huh. It's very tense. There's some good humor to it. For sake of time, we're gonna kind of yada yada. Right through it. But he manages to convince Stenning that the bathroom is broken and sort of get rid of him.
>> David Timberline:Okay. Because the police sergeant would not find that a little suspicious at all.
>> Grace Todd:No, not at all. But there's nothing, you know, it's. He's. He's bluffed his way through it.
>> David Timberline:Sure. All that fake blood I've been using, it just clogs up the toilet. I don't know. You know, you can't go in there.
>> Grace Todd:And Stenning's kind of last thought on the matter is, everything's a big laugh to you, isn't it? But you'll see it all quite differently one of these days, believe me. Stenning leaves, and Bartholomew immediately goes back to sort of staging his perfect crime.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And he types a farewell note from his wife that says, my darling Norman, I am going away with the man I love and will never trouble you again. Please try to understand that when love commands, I have no choice but to obey. Even if it means hurting the one man who has shown more gentleness, kindness and understanding to me than anyone else in the world. Farewell, and try to forget me quickly, your faithless Elizabeth.
>> David Timberline:Obviously a clueless dude writing that, note. Come on.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah. You don't think that's the work of a criminal mastermind?
>> David Timberline:Really? Because the woman who's leaving me is gonna compliment me all the way out the door.
>> Grace Todd:Yep, absolutely. That is.
>> David Timberline:You're the best thing that ever happened to me. See you later, buddy.
>> Grace Todd:My wife, who notoriously hates me, Right?
>> David Timberline:Oh, great.
>> Grace Todd:And he, you know, he finishes the note. He stages it. He's. He's about to head back to the cellar. He's reciting or. And. Or making up a limerick. There was an old doctor called Crippen whose ways were really quite rippin. He took ticket of leave with Ethel Le Neve, but fell foul of Canadian shipping.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:I don't know.
>> David Timberline:I don't get it.
>> Grace Todd:And he's, you know, very jaunty, very excited. He's headed to the cellar to keep digging a grave, and his wife walks in.
>> David Timberline:Hey, wait, what? Come on now. But she was. The bath, the whole. The struggle, the, you know, thrashing, all that. We had to stage all that. Come on.
>> Grace Todd:His wife has just walked in the front door.
>> David Timberline:Jeez. Okay.
>> Grace Todd:He is flabbergasted.
>> David Timberline:I would expect so. Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And he's like, elizabeth? And she's like, yes, your dear wife, Elizabeth. I didn't expect a rapturous welcome, but at least you might seem, Hm. A bit more pleased to See me home. The way the stage directions are written, we're supposed to sort of watch him piece together that his wife has just come in the front door. There's a corpse in the bathtub still.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:They only have the one bathroom.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:What do we do?
>> David Timberline:Right. yeah. I picture the. The camera panning, bathroom door Elizabeth. Bathroom door Elizabeth.
>> Grace Todd:And of course, one of the first. And they're not being very nice to each other.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:But pretty quickly, she's. She says she's had a terrible day. She had to cancel cesarean. That's why she's back. And she was just. All she wants is a nice hot bath.
>> David Timberline:Of course.
>> Grace Todd:and it says that she tried. You know, she said she tried to call, but there wasn't an answer.
>> David Timberline:and this is not. This is way before a multiverse. So this is not like a time loop that we're in here.
>> Grace Todd:They're going back and forth, and he's. He basically starts trying to pick a fight with her to buy himself time to keep her out of the bathroom. And she's giving him a hard time for living like a tramp when she's not there to clean up after him. And they're clearly kind of falling into these, like, age old fights that aren't even new.
>> David Timberline:Right? staging all these murders with all this stuff all over the place. Glass eyes rolling all over the place. Come on.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah, you know. So she accuses him of living like a tramp, and he says, if you say so. Personally, I think it's better than living like a Prussian factory inspector. And she says, why don't you save your wit for that pneumatic little slut who I expect you've been seeing every day I've been gone.
>> David Timberline:Boom. Whoa, okay.
>> Grace Todd:And he says, you know, don't be ridiculous. And she goes, oh, then has she finally become as bored with your nonsensical games as I did?
>> David Timberline:Ooh, man, she's been talking to the people in the village, too.
>> Grace Todd:And she. And he's like, he, you know, he feigns confusion. And she says, oh, yes, that's it, or she'd be here now, wouldn't she? Since neither of you expected me home tonight, the only thing I can't understand is why it took her so long. I was catatonically disinterested in your homicide capers. Within a month, it's taken her three.
>> David Timberline:Oh, man. Okay, I like Elizabeth.
>> Grace Todd:Elizabeth is going for the throat. Elizabeth is tired of his shit.
>> David Timberline:No kidding. And she. Yeah, she's not dead in the bath. She is very much alive in her head.
>> Grace Todd:Correct. And the fight sort of. The fight intensifies. They get. They get really nasty with each other, and then they have kind of a funny moment. And I do think that this is a fairly accurate portrayal of what it's like to be in a shitty marriage, but one that you've been in for so long that there's a kind of a companionability even in the shit of it. And so they. They do this funny thing where they kind of fight all the way around in a circle.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And for a moment, they, like, almost click again, and they're almost nice to each other.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And then he ruins it. M. He undercuts it almost immediately because she starts heading up to go take a bath. And he is desperately bargaining for time, and he's like, what, did you put your car in the garage? And she's like, can't you put my car in the garage? Like, I am exhausted. And he does that thing where he throws her words back at her, like, oh, I'm sorry. Do you want me to constantly be tidying up after you?
>> David Timberline:Oh, boy.
>> Grace Todd:And she's like, it, fine. I will move the car. Which is, of course, a gambit to get her to go outside.
>> David Timberline:Right. Yeah. It's probably circling back on the context of his life. How many wives did he have again? Maybe he was pulling some material from real life.
>> Grace Todd:She goes outside, he runs up the stairs. It's Millie.
>> David Timberline:Oh, poor Millie. I liked Millie.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah. I mean, Millie was very enthusiastically advocating for the murder of Elizabeth.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:So.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:I'm not saying Millie deserved to die necessarily, but Millie was, you know, romantically involved with a man who was actively planning on murdering his wife.
>> David Timberline:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's still that. So I guess the murder happened behind the bathroom door. So we don't quite know how Elizabeth made this work. Right.
>> Grace Todd:How Elizabeth made this work.
>> David Timberline:Because it's Millie's in the one. Millie's the one that's dead. Right.
>> Grace Todd:Yes. He accidentally drowned Millie.
>> David Timberline:Right. But at what. At some point, Elizabeth was in the bathroom. No, she was never in the bathroom.
>> Grace Todd:She was never in the bathroom. It was always Millie. It was.
>> David Timberline:Oh. From the very beginning.
>> Grace Todd:From the beginning, it was Millie.
>> David Timberline:But Norman didn't know that.
>> Grace Todd:Correct.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Norman thought it was Elizabeth.
>> David Timberline:Oh. Cause they never made eye contact.
>> Grace Todd:He snuck up behind her.
>> David Timberline:Oh.
>> Grace Todd:And she had the bath cap on.
>> David Timberline:Right. Okay. That. See, it comes back to that staging piece, I was thinking. Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And it is specified that Elizabeth and Millie are meant to be. You Know, kind of roughly the same height, roughly the same build.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Although Millie is much younger, obviously.
>> David Timberline:Right. So very important that they. Okay. Nice. You know, okay, I'm back in my director's chair. I understand what's going on.
>> Grace Todd:So he runs up the stairs as soon as she goes outside and like, picks up Millie's body and is gonna like, try and run to the cellar with it, but she comes back in because she forgot her keys and he has to run back and dump it in the bath again. It's getting farcical. Right? But ultimately she figures out something is wrong and sort of pushes him aside and storms into the bathroom. She screams, yeah. Then she comes out and we watch her and Bartholomew kind of come face to face. And there's a long silence. And Bartholomew says, it was an accident. an accident? Yes. You mean she slipped and struck her head? Something like that. He kind of tries to get away with that lie for a little while. You know, that must have been what happened. And she's like, well, you weren't in the bathroom, M when it happened. He's like, no, I was downstairs and I heard a crash and I couldn't see her for the bubbles and I, you know, there was a lot of steam. And Elizabeth is like, why didn't you call the police? M. And he's like, I don't know why I didn't call the police. And Elizabeth finally says, it wasn't an accident, was it? And he's like, no, it's definitely an accident. And she says, you killed her. And then she says, what was it? Some little wretched sex romp that went wrong? And then we see it dawn on her and she says, was it one of your stupid murder games? that is it. You were playing brides in the bath. Which means this is a thing that he does.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Ugh. Yeesh. Gah.
>> Grace Todd:He sort of is continuing to try and maintain that it was an accident. And she says. He says, I didn't mean to. And she says, no, I don't suppose you did. But that's what happens if you don't grow up. You kill people, but you don't mean to. In my book, that's worse almost than killing people. And actually meaning to at least one is the act of a man who has taken a conscious decision, while the other is just the work of a lunatic child. They'll find out she was your mistress. Of course, they have a back and forth about how all of this is going to play out.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:he Comes around and he's. He says, you know, you were right. I was playing George Joseph Smith, the brides in the bath murder. And I must have gone too far. One minute we were laughing and joking, and the next, well, she was just lying there under the water, dead. She goes back and forth. She's basically like, you need to call the police. Like, this is you up.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:His sort of counterpoint is, what if you covered for me?
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:What if we pretended together that it was an accident?
>> David Timberline:She, of course, hasn't seen the note that he's written about for her. Right.
>> Grace Todd:oh, yeah.
>> David Timberline:Did I go, oh, I figured something out.
>> Grace Todd:You did. So they have this whole back and forth, and basically he half bullies and half cajoles her into covering for him because he's like, the news will get out and you will be the wife of the man with the dead mistress.
>> David Timberline:Okay? The worst thing ever. Oh, boy.
>> Grace Todd:And none of you're gonna have to close your practice, right? Because this is because she's a surgeon. And the scandal. And none of your patients will want to come see you if you're tied to this notorious murder. And he has her pretty well convinced.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And she's like, all right, fine, but no more mistresses, no more murder games. You're going to be the perfect husband. like you are going to behave yourself.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. That's what all women really want. Right. Is the one who was such an incredible creep saying, nah, I'm not gonna. I'm putting that all behind me.
>> Grace Todd:I'm gonna be someone different now.
>> David Timberline:Totally different.
>> Grace Todd:So over the course of rises and falls, and for the sake of time, we kind of need to hop through it, but basically, she gets a little suspicious. And then the suspicion fades. But then ultimately she finds the note. Yeah, okay, she finds the note. He almost pulls it off, sure. But he left the note out. And she picks it up and she reads it. Bartholomew freezes and she starts to laugh, uncontrollably.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:She says, well, well, well, if this isn't the best thing ever. The great murder expert plots and plans his first actual crime with fiendish cunning and can't even get the victim right.
>> David Timberline:Oh, that's a good line. That's a great line.
>> Grace Todd:And just so I can stop reading it, she's laughing for, like, most of this next chunk, on and off. He tells her to shut up. And she says, oh, my dear, it's far too late to tell me to shut up. Everyone's going to hear about this. You'll get Your precious notoriety, all right. As a laughingstock. They'll probably have a wax effigy of you in the Chamber of Horrors at Madame Tussauds. Norman Bartholomew, the bubble bath murderer, drowned his lover in mistake for his wife. And he snaps and he grabs her by the throat and is, like, throttling her and screaming like, shut up, shut up, shut up. And she loses consciousness.
>> David Timberline:oh.
>> Grace Todd:He drags her over to the gas stove. He decides, sort of in the moment that he's going to stage her suicide. He's gonna be like, oh, my wife killed my mistress and then killed herself.
>> David Timberline:Oh, okay.
>> Grace Todd:And so he's got the gas stove open, he's turned the gas on, he's put her head in the stove. And when his back is turned, she revives and grabs the meat fork that was in the beef roast.
>> David Timberline:Ooh, okay.
>> Grace Todd:And stabs him in the stomach with it.
>> David Timberline:Ooh. All right, now we got some full on gore going on. Gotta love it.
>> Grace Todd:So she stabs the shit out of him, and this is sort of the big, thrilling conclusion of the play.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:So he's been stabbed in the stomach, he's bleeding everywhere.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:He stumbles over to the window and starts, like, waving frantically to their neighbor, right?
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And we don't get, like, what the neighbor does, but what we do get is that he, like, is waving frantically. And then we see him, like, register.
>> David Timberline:Disappointment because the neighbor's like, oh, yeah, playing again.
>> Grace Todd:Uh-huh.
>> David Timberline:Silly neighbor. Silly Norman.
>> Grace Todd:And he calls her a bloody cow. And then Elizabeth walks over and closes the curtains, and she says, wouldn't she listen to you, Norman? Well, it's hardly surprising, is it? A man wholly obsessed with negative forces like murder and murderers must eventually forfeit all protection and put himself in the way of harm. And he's, you know, begging for help. And she opens her suitcase and gets out her surgeon's case.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And her scalpels. And he asks what she's doing. And she says, I'm doing you a favor, Norman. I'm showing you what the murder game is really all about. M. She slashes him four times with the scalpel across the chest and arms. He screams and tries to protect himself as blood spurts out through the torn shirt. Well, darling, tell me, does it represent a mirror image of man's potential to realize bliss? M she slashes him again. He screams again. Is it truly our most daring challenge to God? Another slash, another scream. Is this really a way to salvation? Is it, Norman? Is it? Is it? Is it? She cuts away at him. In a, ah, frenzy. Finally, he collapses on the floor, and she moves away in a daze to sit on the stairs. There is a long silence. She says, norman, listen to me. It's worth listening to, because, you see, you finally made a convert. She laughs hysterically. Do you know what story I'll tell the police when they get here? I'll say, I came in and found your mistress in my bath. In a sudden, uncontrollable burst of passion, I drowned her and then killed you. It will be my murder. M. In terrible pain, Bartholomew somehow realizes the significance of what she's saying, and he says, you can't do that. I killed. It was my murder.
>> David Timberline:Oh, God.
>> Grace Todd:And then it says, and this little description is one of those crux points where I. I'm like, does this play hate women? Unclear. Because it says. Elizabeth smiles a wicked smile at him and slowly shakes her head as she takes away from him all he has left. No, I think not. Did you really think that an inept little man like you could challenge the great moral laws of this universe? Mediocrity, my darling, has no theological status. M. And he says, I had my vision. And she says, vision? The eye of the heroic murderer does not fall on the wrong person. You know, this could really be the creme passionnelle of the century. I can see myself in the witness box now. Proud, aloof, mysterious. All eyes will be upon me as I weave my bloody tale of wronged womanhood, omitting no ghastly detail of the drowning of my rival and the slaughter of my husband. Believe me, my own dearest Norman, I will have what you always wanted. A, true and abiding notoriety. And Bartholomew's last words are, no, it's mine. And then he collapses. Sergeant Stenning turns up on the scene.
>> David Timberline:Oh, hello.
>> Grace Todd:He walks up to Bartholomew and is like, I told you to stop playing these stupid games. And it says, still, playing games, eh, Mr. Bartholomew? Well, this time you've gone too far. You frightened Mrs. Ramage half to death, showing yourself to her all covered in blood. She just called me in a fair old state, I can tell you. You may know the difference between Kensington Gore, as you call it, and the real stuff. Old ladies don't. I warned you twice today, and that's enough. Do you hear me? Good God, man. Look at me when I'm talking to you. I'm arresting you for a breach of the peace. And then he realizes he's dead, right? Then he sees Elizabeth on the stairs with the scalpel. And these are the last Lines of the play.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Stenning looks at her and it says slowly. I told him to stop in time. I told him he didn't know the game he was playing. I told him it was the victim who looked for the murderer. And Elizabeth says, you were right, Sergeant. But he didn't have to look very far. We made the appointment years ago. And the curtain falls.
>> David Timberline:Wow. Dang. That's some good stuff.
>> Grace Todd:Right?
>> David Timberline:That's, I'm surprised I've never heard of this before because that's. That's some intensity.
>> Grace Todd:Very intense. Asking big questions.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:I still don't know if the play hates women or not. Like, I don't know. And it's funny. Cause I think this is one of those things where plays separate themselves from novels. Because either Norman is a, perv and a creep, but like a perv and a creep who has been driven into these things. Things by all of these shrewish women he's surrounded by.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:Or Elizabeth is a justifiable, murderous.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:And Bartholomew is just a pathetic, creepy, pervy little child.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. I, mean, and you.
>> Grace Todd:I think you could make that decision. I think a director could make either decision.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:Like, you could do it either way.
>> David Timberline:Well, and. And so much of it would be in the performance too, like.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:How. How does he come across as a. I mean, like. Like Wike in Sleuth, for instance, is such a pompous asshole. And you get a sense of pompous asshole here too. But is he. Is he. Is he like. Who was the actor in, Anthony. Anthony Perkins.
>> Grace Todd:Yes.
>> David Timberline:Is he like a, ah, like a wiry, like almost frantic, maybe like m. You know, you can imagine like an overbearing mother kind of. That kind of murderer? Or is he a Andrew Wyke, robust, British, overly, you know, chummy, like, stooge.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:Who. Who hates women or. I mean, I don't know. There's so many different ways that. Or is he just a true obsessive. And the woman. I mean, if the woman is played. If Elizabeth is played as like, straightforward and sensical in a way that is just that. Where she's been driven a little around the bend by him.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:Then it's not. It's not necessarily that it hates women. It's like. It more like. It's almost like the women are just the plot devices, you know?
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:That he's stuck between in some way.
>> Grace Todd:Well, and that's one of the other reasons that I think this is such an interesting companion piece to Sleuth. Because in Sleuth, none of the women are ever on screen at all.
>> David Timberline:Right, Right.
>> Grace Todd:But it all hinges around a woman. It all hinges around infidelity.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:Just like this one does. But this time it's, it's two women and one man. Whereas Sleuth is two men and one woman and the woman is never there.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And it, it does feel like there's an interesting. Like these are two sides of a coin.
>> David Timberline:Absolutely. Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And I think that that is especially when you factor in that Sleuth hinges around a writer of like Agatha Christie style, old world, cozy English murder mysteries.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:And that this guy is obsessed with the sort of more contemporary feeling, like grimy, gritty, 70s true crime kind of stuff.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:it. That really kind of cements like these are the two faces of crime culture in a way.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And they're both pretty depraved.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:Like there's nothing really redeemable about either of them.
>> David Timberline:Right. And I also like one of the questions I have about the question, does it hate women? I just wonder, given his background and his profile, whether he just doesn't think of them as human at all.
>> Grace Todd:No, I don't think he does. Yeah, they're props.
>> David Timberline:They're props. Exactly.
>> Grace Todd:And they're titillating props. Right. I mean, I do think that like one of the points, one of the arguments that can be made using the text of this play is that true crime obsession, especially because it's almost always the, the crimes that true crime obsessives, obsess over, tend to be played out on the bodies of women.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Right.
>> Grace Todd:And that this is kind, the obsession with women being murdered and dismembered is kind of the logical endpoint of where thinking of women as objects ends.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:Always like that is where it's always going to escalate to if you are in a society that thinks of women as like commodities.
>> David Timberline:Yep. Used up, disposed.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:And that's, that's, that's Norman.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Right. But yeah. I think also though I can, I can. I mean, I think that all makes sense to me. But I also wonder given, given the nexus of the seventies in some way, like he's trying to take a modern take and I'm using scare quotes there, a modern take like, no, but I'll make the murderer woman. So that will make it modern without necessarily dismantling any of the misogyny or built in objectification of the women in the play, but saying no, but see, no, no, no, it's modern because you see, the Woman does the murdering.
>> Grace Todd:I. I don't know about that. I don't think it's quite that trite. And what makes me think that it is not quite that trite is her monologue at the end where she's not buying into the true crime obsession. She's realizing that this is the way that she can make sure that she really completely dismantles his worldview. Right, right. Is that she will take the wrap for this murder not just to deprive him of the satisfaction, but I think there is an extent to which maybe one of the quiet points being made here is that, like, it won't be as titillating when it's a woman who's done it. Right. Like by taking the rap for it, she's kind of disassembling some of the sexiness of it.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:Although, you know, or at least making it her own.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:I don't know. It's interesting. I would love to see it staged. Like, I would love to see someone put it on.
>> David Timberline:Oh, my God. And so many challenges. I mean, I could see, like I said at the beginning, a director just treating the first page and being like, no, no, thank you. But also, you know, particularly one, a director who is fascinated with practical effects or magic or sleight of hand. Getting into this, being like, oh, this would be so cool to like. Yeah. And, there are so many fun twists. It would be really hard to do.
>> Grace Todd:Well, yeah.
>> David Timberline:Because, I mean, I think about the staging of the killing of Millie. You need to believe that's Elizabeth and Norman. needs to believe that. And you need to make it so that you can't really tell. I don't know. That's a hard thing to do on stage, to give it, you know, make it visible enough. but not too visible.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:So many challenges here.
>> Grace Todd:Twists on twists on twists.
>> David Timberline:I know, but I mean, it could be a great movie too.
>> Grace Todd:It would be a great. I. Yeah. Someone needs to do an adaptation of it.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:Especially because you could so easily update it.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:Like you could make it contemporary so easily.
>> David Timberline:Absolutely. Yeah. I. It just. To me, there's particularly the Norman character. I mean, Millie is a little bit of a cipher in this. So unfortunately you don't really get a whole. A big sense of her.
>> Grace Todd:I will say you get more of her than we had time for. Like, I had to kind of yada yada through most of Millie's best scenes.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Because it's just kind of the two of them riffing and her pretty enthusiastically advocating for Elizabeth to get murdered. Although it's. It is also a little unclear if Millie is genuinely advocating for Elizabeth's death or if Millie is just trying to kind of call him on his bluff.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. right.
>> Grace Todd:like, there's a whole thing where she very much doesn't. She very clearly doesn't think he has it in him.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And could be argued that she never really thought he was going to kill Elizabeth at all and that maybe if she, like, pushed him on it enough, he would give up on some of this weird.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:Crime play acting stuff.
>> David Timberline:Sure. Yeah. What. What do you think it would play? Because there's been such a true crime craze in the years since. Would it play as weird as it does or, as it would have back then? Do you think that part would still be as effective?
>> Grace Todd:I don't know. And so I was. I. I ran out of time a little bit. I was trying to do some research onto kind of what the true crime climate of the seventies was like.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And it was apparently pretty intense because this, it was sort of peak serial killer M. And in the UK, there, there were sort of like, throughout the 70s, there were a bunch of different, like, very high profile, like, breathlessly reported on, like, up murders, like, weird ones.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:And so I think. I think that they were in a big true crime moment very much the way we are now.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:Obviously there were differences to it, but, like, it was very much m. Like, it was very much an era in which you were kind of constantly being bombarded with true crime content.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:Much like the Victorian era. And that's one of the things that I find so interesting about this is Norman is obsessed with Victorian, like with all of these Victorian murders.
>> David Timberline:Right. The Jack the Ripper styles, which was.
>> Grace Todd:A big true crime moment.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:it's set in the 70s, which was a big true crime moment. And then stumbling on it from now, it's just like, wow, everything old is new again.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:Nothing ever changes.
>> David Timberline:We're just up in new ways. Oh, man. Well, for one, I want to read it now, but I just imagined. I don't know if you did this. I do it all the time. Anytime I read something like this is picturing different actors and the way that that would either dial up or dial down what that, you know, particularly like the Norman character or the Elizabeth character. In my mind, whichever actor you pick would dial up or dial down different aspects that are built into that character.
>> Grace Todd:All right, so to wrap up the episode then, what is your fan casting for?
>> David Timberline:I Mean, I am a. This is not new for me, but with a couplin unknown just coming out, Ed Norton to me is like from the beginning of, what is Primal Fear, I think was his first movie. Where have, you ever seen that?
>> Grace Todd:Not in a long time, but.
>> David Timberline:Yeah, but I mean, he just is. He's so good, and he's really good in a complete unknown in a totally different way. But I, feel like he could be amazing in a movie like this. I also think that you could have a younger, dumber actor. what's it, Channing Tatum, somebody like that in this role, who I think would be. Because Channing Tatum has done some fun stuff. Some interesting stuff.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:And I could see him being more of a, like, stay at home, lunkhead painter dude who is into true crime, who has this wife who goes out and this is his obsession, and he's got this piece on the side, and it's more of a. There's, less intellect in somebody like that.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:but I think that could also be interesting. Really fun.
>> Grace Todd:I think Tom Hardy.
>> David Timberline:Oh, wow. Okay.
>> Grace Todd:I think Tom Hardy would be a phenomenal Norman. I think he would be able to sell just enough charisma that you can understand how these women slept with him to begin with.
>> David Timberline:Okay.
>> Grace Todd:But would also be able to make it creepy enough that you would understand why they both tired of it pretty quickly. you know what I mean? And he loves a weird little voice.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:Like Tom Hardy loves a weird little voice.
>> David Timberline:Yes.
>> Grace Todd:And what do we know about Norman?
>> David Timberline:Oh, he loves the little voices.
>> Grace Todd:He's big into his weird little voices. Can you imagine Tom Hardy talking to himself in a panoply of accents?
>> David Timberline:Oh, yeah.
>> Grace Todd:And, like, I feel like you can schlub up Tom Hardy pretty good.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:You know, that's my. Like Tom Hardy with, like, thinning hair. Like Tom Hardy with a comb over.
>> David Timberline:There's always a, Even in his non menacing roles, there's just a little bit of menace in Tom Hardy that I think never goes away.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:And I feel like, I don't know, there's other actors who could just. You could. You don't. You wouldn't know from the outset that there's something a little off about this guy. what about Elizabeth? Who would you want there?
>> Grace Todd:That is an excellent question. I don't watch that many movies. Who's out there?
>> David Timberline:How? I mean.
>> Grace Todd:All right, so assuming we stick with, like, the Channing Tatum, Tom Hart, like, they're. They're roughly the same age.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:So like, who would. Who's in the right age bracket?
>> David Timberline:Ah. man. See, I would want somebody substantial. I want, like a. I want a Glenn Close, but younger.
>> Grace Todd:Sure.
>> David Timberline:who. Who. Yeah, who is that? Who would that be?
>> Grace Todd:Hilariously, I think Charlize Theron could do it, but she and Tom Hardy apparently hate each other and have since they did Furiosa, so. It's off the table.
>> David Timberline:That's a great. I would see that. That would be great because she's so good.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:It's weird because I know, Whole other conversation, but I know she's gotten. You know, people say she's too pretty for some of the things that she's done. I could almost see her as being too pretty for something like this, but she's. She'd be awesome. That's a good. That's a good pick. I like that.
>> Grace Todd:I mean, I'm kind of cheating because Furiosa is, like, right there.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:But right.
>> David Timberline:There you go.
>> Grace Todd:Or. Sorry. Fury. Furious Fury Road. Not Furiosa. Furiosa had Anna Taylor.
>> David Timberline:Right. Well, there you go. Anna Taylor. Joy could be Millie, you know.
>> Grace Todd:Oh, my God. That'd be great, actually.
>> David Timberline:Yeah. Ah.
>> Grace Todd:Watch the shit out of that movie.
>> David Timberline:All right. We got a cast. Producers, out there. Just call, us up.
>> Grace Todd:Yep, sounds good.
>> David Timberline:We have no rights or any power whatsoever in this, but we want it. Damn it.
>> Grace Todd:Well, any final thoughts on Murderer?
>> David Timberline:you know, this is, We don't have to digress too long along these lines, but I do feel I'm curious about how this sets in the crime, on Broadway or crime on stage trajectory, because, as when we talked about Sleuth, there is this weird point where, you know, even coming from, like, the gaslights and shows like that, where crime on stage was pretty popular.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:And you had Death Trap and Mousetrap and shows like that, and then it kind of fell off and it became just like. If you had crime on stage, it was farce. And it wasn't like this even pseudo serious, you know, satire kind of stuff. It was like. No, it's just farce. So this feels like it might be happening at the cutting edge of, At the falling edge, I guess, of crime on stage happening.
>> Grace Todd:I found a review from when it was really a really short paragraph, not even really a review, but it basically said that verbatim, almost was basically that the English crime play was. Was no longer in fashion.
>> David Timberline:Yeah, we're done with that.
>> Grace Todd:It was interesting because the argument that they were making was basically that, like, between Mousetrap and Sleuth. It had been done.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:Like, it was.
>> David Timberline:We've got it all.
>> Grace Todd:It had been perfected.
>> David Timberline:Sure.
>> Grace Todd:And was no longer necessary.
>> David Timberline:Right.
>> Grace Todd:And they kind of explicitly pinned this as being kind of one of like, it's on the way out. and this is probably one of the last ones.
>> David Timberline:Interesting.
>> Grace Todd:Which I think. I don't know. I. I really, really want someone to do this and Sleuth as, like, companion pieces.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:I think it would be really, really cool to be able to watch them kind of back to back.
>> David Timberline:Sure. Well, and with the, you know, with the popularity of Knives out and Glass Onion, I could see people looking. I mean, because that a lot. When that came out, a lot of the conversation was, oh, it's throwback to Agatha Christie. It's an update of those kind of old English murders. Yeah, yeah, sure. Let's do it.
>> Grace Todd:Why not?
>> David Timberline:you know, all the producers I've got on speed dial, I'm just. I'm gonna hit them up tonight, man. Got a hot property.
>> Grace Todd:Woo. All right, well, well, that was Murderer.
>> David Timberline:Thank you for sharing that with me. I'm so delighted to. To know about that play. So weird.
>> Grace Todd:Thank you for coming on an adventure with me. I, you know, think twice about your true crime obsession, y'all.
>> David Timberline:That's right. And don't pick your murderer.
>> Grace Todd:Just don't do it.
>> David Timberline:Just don't do. Is not necessary. Nobody needs a murderer.
>> Grace Todd:Have you considered just not exactly. Well, thanks so much for being here with me today, David.
>> David Timberline:As always, it was a joyride all along the way.
>> Grace Todd:And if you enjoyed hanging out with David and would like more of him, his podcast is called Chasing Phantom. It's about the longest running shows on Broadway.
>> David Timberline:Yay.
>> Grace Todd:And I was on it, a couple, a few weeks ago.
>> David Timberline:Yeah.
>> Grace Todd:Yeah.
>> David Timberline:And I was just today recording an episode about Amadeus. Oh, another Shaffer brother.
>> Grace Todd:Those Shaffer brothers, I tell you, they're crazy. And thank all of you for being here with us today. I very much appreciate it if I could ask you, all of you out there, a favor. you know, if you have the time or the inclination, consider telling a friend about us, because word of mouth is. Is the most effective way that podcasts get to grow. And we would like to keep doing this and to do that. We need, we need, we need your ears. Yeah. Lend me your friends, Romans podcast listeners, lend me your ears. But as always, thank you so much for being here. And if you can, this week, this month, this pay period, consider supporting a living author because they could really use the love.
>> David Timberline:Bye Bye.
>> Grace Todd:Didn't read. It was created, written, researched and recorded by me, Grace Todd. Maddie Wood is our co producer and social media maven, editing by Tally, a true podcasting professional, and Grace Todd. Our theme song is books 2.0. Written, performed and recorded by William Albritton. Special thanks to blackiris Social Club in Richmond, Virginia. reach out to us with questions, concerns or academic scrutiny@didn't readititpodmail dot.