Of Darkness and Light by Ryan Cahill: Episode One

ODAL Chapters 1-19. 

My dragon's bigger than your dragon! Calen, despite some badass skill with the spark, is quickly outmatched at the battle of Helm's Deep. Our merry band of misfits flees on subterranean sailboats through the wind tunnels, only to find a thousand miles south after fleeing creepy stone spiders through a magic dwarven portal (this is peak fantasy, btw). 

Meanwhile, Ella is workshopping plausible fake last names, Rist is getting spanked at mage academy, and Kallinvar is still trying to figure out how to get the taint out of his rift. Oh, and we have a whole new storyline: Valtaran Wyvern Riders. Ladies, it's your time to shine! 

We're off to a hot start in Book Two. Thanks for listening, and please feel free to reach out at booktwoisbetter@gmail.com or on Discord/Reddit @booktwoisbetter! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Book two is better, reporting live from the red carpet. Travis, give us your top three favorite looks from the Met Gala. No, no. No.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

No.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

She's secretly film. Anna Winter had to make a statement decrying uh Jeff Bezos' involvement in the Met Gala.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Disgusting.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

She said it was never meant to be a display of wealth and entitlement. God no. No, of course not. So she, you know, she's very upset about all the Amazon money flowing into it, and she promises to fix it, which is good. I've always thought of it as an event of the people.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Me too. I mean, personally, I boycotted this year just to go to the after parties, but that's pretty typical for me.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah, I went because I wanted the swag bag. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I did like a whole uh Chili Peppers uh sock on cock thing for the per outfit.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Oh, excellent.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Excellent choice. Really good glam bot too. Look that up from me. Um I went as Fat Mac from Always Sunny. So yeah, people were talking about that. Um hot take. I think a lot of our museums are overfunded.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Oh boy, yeah. Let's get into the the nonprofit industrial complex.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

I think here's my here's my deal. I love museums. I love art. Ryan Cahill's making art. I think rich people are giving a little too much money to the ballet and the opera in MoMA, and maybe they should like I don't know, build housing for people or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

That's cool. Yeah, I I tend to agree. I think also like something like um MoMA, which has its own for-profit design store and for-profit like consulting arm, is dangerously close to not being a nonprofit in many ways. But that's a classic museum, big museum and big art uh institution.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

You gotta take down Zoran, take down big museum.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah. Don't get don't let me get into the nonprofit hospital industrial complex because that's a that's a whole bag of worms. Don't don't you dare.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Don't you dare talk shit on Sloan Kettering.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

I did a yeah, back when I smoked, we have Sloan Kettering and Johnny Hopkins.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Why are you, dude? What's up with like Presbyterian hospitals? I don't need my hospital to have an affiliation with the church.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Well, they used to they used to be alms houses back in the day. And uh and then our boy Ben Franklin invented the first public hospital in 17.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Such a surprising knowledge drop for me right there.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

I'm I'm studying this. That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Wow, that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Uh we didn't know. I think they should. We did a case study on the Fellowship Bible Church out of Little Rock, Arkansas last night in class. Is that one of the crazy ones? It's an example where a a white church tried to fix a black neighborhood and it didn't go very well. Yeah. That sentence never ends with, and they did it. And everybody was happy.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

It's perfectly integrated and wealthy.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah. Turns out they knew exactly what they were doing, and you know, it wasn't paternalistic at all.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Yeah. The Fellowship Community Church is now invited to the cookout. Um okay. So we are covering uh Odil Ryan Cahill, Book Two, Bound of the Broken, of Darkness and Light. Is that the title? It is Odal. I don't I don't know why these titles kind of don't mean anything to me. I'm just like book two, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, I I will say I haven't overanalyzed them much. Um of darkness and light. Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty middle of the road for me. Odal's good. Odal is good. I used Odal in my email to Kaco, and I felt proud. He knows we're real fans. We are real fans.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Having a great time. We're actually legitimately big fans. This is awesome. Um okay. Before we get into this, I told you I was gonna surprise you with a uh topic. Let's get pseudo-intellectual. No, this isn't even that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

I was watching an interview as creatives. We deserve to have this platform. So um I think it's important. Does this feel like a creative outlet to you? I was watching an Instagram reel today of a woman who started like as a creative. I was like, are we technically creatives? I think we are.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

I think the summaries are no, they're not. It doesn't scratch that itch for me. I think we're creating beautiful art together. Doing a terrible cover cover of tweezer with Golden Hasem, that's creative, my friend. That's art. Yeah. Okay. I so I guess I slightly previewed this with you. I was watching an interview with uh one Philip Pullman, author of Golden Compass, His Dark Materials, etc. etc. And uh one, that boy's old. Two, he is like what you picture, just like picture an old kooky Cambridge professor with a dusty office. Oh yeah. That's a little bit of tweed, he's got a little bit of tweed in there. Yeah. What hair he has has not been combed in many decades. Tweed jacket on. Wonderful voice, honestly. Beautiful speaking voice. Um saw an interview with him, and in his very polite academic way, this guy was dropping bombs. One suggested that A.A. Milne, author of Winnie the Pooh, was a pedophile. Then was talking about how shitty C.S. Lewis is. Um, which I guess makes sense because he's sort of a he's the Christian children's author, Philip Pullman, famously the uh not Christian children's author.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Well Rocchio's the new children Christian's author.

unknown 6:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Catholic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Don't you dare wait, was C. S. Lewis Catholic?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

I don't know what he was, but he wrote some good annotations of the Bible that I've actually read.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Um who do you think we're more likely to get on the show, Rocchio or C.S. Lewis, who is dead? C.S. Lewis. Yeah, somehow. Um There's something. Oh, and then Philip Pullman went on this really bizarre tangent about how he would rewrite the story of Jesus' death to make it more narratively interesting. And his proposal was to have Judas kiss him and then spirit him away magically somewhere far from the Romans so he didn't die. I was like, I've never heard Jesus fanfic like that before. Or it just approached purely from a narrative structure standpoint.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

I've also never been dissatisfied with the electricity electricity of the downfall and resurrection. Like it's it's pretty spicy. Like it's got mystery and intrigue and betrayal. That's never been my complaint with that piece of literature.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

It's just like beyond complaint for me. It's like a story that's so familiar, I can't even it's just iconic. It's like I'm not gonna rewrite fucking Paul Bunyan and make him have a red ox. Like um, shout out Minnesota. They love Paul Paul Paul Bunyan up there. Um okay. All that to say, I think the older generation, represented by Philip Pullman, who's 900, I feel like they're more content to drop bombs and be like C.S. Lewis's ass. That guy couldn't write his way out of a paper bag.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

And then not to compare us to Philip Pullman, but I think a lot of people our age we don't like dropping bombs like that. And are very scared scared of confrontation. And I'm just I'm personally like h hesitant to say, maybe to say to other people what is definitively good and bad. Like I have my opinions about it, but I know that I could, you know, I could come up with arguments about why things that I hate are good. And it just all falls apart to me.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah. I mean, who are we to be the arbiters of good or bad? It's it's more of our personal enjoyment. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

With art, you know? Like, you know, you can do it loosey-goosey and point to like characteristics of things that are good or bad. But here's my question. Are we cowards, our generation? Are we making shit worse by like our inability or unwillingness to just drop bombs and be like, imagine dragons is straight booty?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Um, sorry, I thought of something else with Imagine Dragons. Spoilers for uh a future episode. Uh okay, yeah, I I think you're on to something because one of my favorite books that I've always cherished is like The Selected Literary Criticisms of DH Lawrence, where he basically just I think he's a good author. Like I've enjoyed his literary works, but I think he's a better critic. And he actually just like rips people to shreds, but then also like is very good at praising other people. And I think there is something to be said about taking a stand that is backed up with reason and logic and evidence, right? So it's like it's not just I like this or I don't like this, but why and how it fits into the current culture or like the the tradition of its genre. Um, I do I think it's weird. I'm kind of split on current generation or like Gen Z because on one hand, like the the like TikTok take is so popular. The like this thing good, this thing bad, or like this thing these are my five-star read, this is my one-star read, this was trash.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Like, yeah, it's almost like we're caught in the middle. I think like millennials would be this sort of polite to a fault generation. Yeah. Um, with the DH Lawrence thing, like that. I mean, so many people were doing that. I know it's like way later in time, but like Nabokov was like came across like a straight psychopath talking about other artists. It sounded like he like actually wanted to fight other people whose work he didn't like. Yeah, they got stirring up in arms. I wonder if like to some extent it's it's just like a casualty of war. And it's you know, it's like, well, I'm gonna take a massive shit on Debalzac, but like it's because I think the genre like the medium should be moving this way. And if someone has to get killed, so be it, you know? Yeah. Um I feel like you can do the same thing without calling someone out very specifically, but maybe it does lose a loses some teeth.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Well, I mean, I think there's something that you're on where I I kind of am of the opinion that like an a good artist should be selfish, like you should be so self-centered that you are producing your own personal vision onto like a page or onto a you know one of your works. And so, like uh on one hand, like, yeah, you need to be able to argue that like this is my perspective. Um, on the other, like, yeah, you should probably be a little respectful of other people are seeing something a different way. Yeah, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

I think there's something cool about a passionate artist that's like Yeah, there's the sick part of me that that loves that. Like and I could easily imagine a version of this show where I talk about how bad Fourth Wing is, just as an example. It's a great book, of course. You know that you know how much I love it. But there could be a version of this show where I say that. I think part of the part of the reason I don't do it is because like I used to. I think you knew me in high school and I did like to drop bombs. And what I found is um it's really socially off-putting to tell someone that their favorite band is terrible.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yeah. It's not a nice party conversation, and you're probably not going to be friends with that person.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Yeah, it makes you seem like a huge dick.

unknown 12:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Turns out I really don't like those people in real life. Yeah. So my position is less about the advancement of art and more about uh not seeming crazy and mean to people I'm just meeting.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

I'm also imagining like saying that to an author's face and just be like, hey, what you worked really hard on sucks.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

It's not that I didn't like it. It's that it's bad and you don't have talent and you wasted your five years of your life writing this slop. Yeah, I also written a book.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

I also think I'm hopefully a little bit more mature than back in those days, where it's like I can appreciate when something is just fun and it doesn't have to be so serious, it doesn't have to be perfectly well written. Like, you know, I can read some literary criticism and I can read Matt Dinnerman and like I'm pretty comfortable enjoying both. Who's perfect?

SPEAKER_02 12:58

I've also found that like as you know, I've tried to be creative in some ways. Like I've made some music, I've written a little bit. And the more that I do it, the less I want to shit on other things because I think when you get into the craft, it's easier to respect what someone else has done, even if it's not to your taste. But it's like it's hard to make anything that's even remotely good. Like especially with music, like when I got into producing music, like I kind of I stopped hating music as much, and I also stopped loving music as much. It just sort of became like a thing that I was staring at under a microscope. But it I think the net result was like I could always find something I liked about music. There's something interesting about it. And it and it's sort of that way with writing too. Like I'm using it as a punching bag because she has terrible politics, but like I I do understand why Fourth Wing was successful and there are good elements of that book. Um, and I don't know if I would have felt that way if I hadn't tried to make things myself. Right. Um, but it's in other art, like obviously like DH Lawrence and Philip Pullman don't feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

No, like it's made them less appreciative of other art. They're like, stop stop trying to build things that suck. Like get out of our, get out of our you don't have any God-given talent. To be an accountant, motherfucker. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Yeah. Okay. Well, um, I don't know where to go with that, but it was something I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

I mean, bringing it okay, I'll bring it back around to Kahel in this current series. Like, I was doing some research into his previous interviews, and well, first of all, I like him. I think we would ultimately like having a conversation with him. Top lad. Um Top Lad. And somebody on one of whose Reddit AMAs was like, or actually, it was just like a Reddit post. Um, it was basically like, This book is lazy, it's plagiarized, and like it sucks. And he like he clearly didn't work very hard because he ripped off like Lord of the Rings and he ripped off Wheel of Time. And first of all, bad take, but second of all, it's a wild take. Yeah, second of all, it uh Kyle actually wrote like a very nice response, which was like, You can say you hate my books, but like do not call them lazy because like I've spent thousands of hours building maps and character like diagrams and writing backstories, and like and just basically giving us thinking of like, here's how hard I worked to put all this together, and like you cannot read it, but like, do not call me lazy and do not call it plagiarized. Like, I've built a language system on my own. Yeah, for like it was fair, it's a great response.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

I think I would respond the same way. Yeah, because I don't think anyone makes something with the expectation that everyone's gonna like it. Like, if you're a reasonable person, not a complete narcissist, like it's it's all subjective. But yeah, if someone is like, you didn't even fucking try. This is like, how dare you even make me read this? Like, I would probably be pretty annoyed with that.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I was like, please, you try to write 300,000 words that are cohesive. Yeah, Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yeah, this does not strike me as a lazy effort by Kyle by any means. Jesus. Um Okay. All that in mind, is book two better thus far? Because I know last time I asked that, you wouldn't answer until we finished the book.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Book two is pretty solid so far. I don't know if it's I don't know if it's better or not. It's interesting. It's way different. We really opened up the world, and we are really multi-POV.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Talk about a book I don't feel comfortable weighing in on yet. Like this is a lot of setup, a lot of introduction of new people and places, and I'm excited to see where it goes, but this feels like tip of the iceberg right now.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Um yeah. I kind of went back and forth a bit, being like, oh, it's a little too fractured, like I miss my guys, Dan and Wrist, and kind of the the comfort that I got in in the first two-thirds of book one. And on the other hand, like we're getting villain POVs, we're meeting crazy new dragon societies, like it's it's pretty, it's pretty fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

What I will say is one, very bold to not basically have Dan and Wrist in this story. Um, two, he keeps introducing new people and they keep being interesting. Yeah. You know? It's always that initial reaction. I was like, who the fuck is Dane? Um, but we're like, well, Dane's I kind of like Dane. I'd like to hear more about Dane. So um rates pretty high with these people.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Oh hate to the you know, the god of our craft, Brandon Sanderson, but um, we didn't have like a Shalin introduction where you're just groaning over the jokes of a character. Yeah, I'm glad that we have no witty characters. There's a there's a pretty funny, there's like a little, oh, who was it with Eric and Fallman? They have a little comedy hour in the middle of the session.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yeah. Um Dan is not intentionally funny. No, he's funny, you know. There's more like book one asking if elves can grow beards. That's good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah, I miss Dan. I miss comedy Dan.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Okay, the other thing that I just want to call out, character-wise, before we get into what actually happens in this section. It I appreciate Kyle writing rational and logical characters. At most turns of this book, characters like listen to reason, they pay attention to their surroundings, they adapt, they have like emotions, but they don't like go on crazy side quests to follow.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

They're generally respectful of their allies and friends.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

They follow cultural norms and try to learn them.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Why is this so hard, people?

SPEAKER_01 18:48

I I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Not to DH Lawrence it up, but god damn are fucking a lot of fantasy authors not making characters act rationally.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

I know, but it feels really consistent. Like obviously, there are some crazy things like dragons, but like for example, Dwagans. Like Dwagans. Um but that being said, suspending disbelief. I think it's a pretty pretty rational set of characters, and I like that.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

How is this such a mean thing to say? Say it, DH. I uh listen, fantasy fans, fantasy authors don't have a reputation for being that cool or maybe that socially well adjusted. However, Cahill seems like an incredibly normal guy. You think there's any chance that he writes more rational, normal characters because he himself is a little more grounded?

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yeah, I mean, I think there's something to be said for How about just having empathy? You know, having some empathy, having some life experience before you dive into a series. I mean, he was a little bit older and a professional when he started writing and had, you know, lived in different parts of the world. And I think that's there's something to be said for that versus like pinning your first novel at 18. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

You know what? I'm gonna come that's not a theory I'm actually putting forward. It was more of a it was an invasive thought I was having. And uh now that I've thought about it, there's some incredibly normal seeming authors who write infuriating, irrational characters. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

I was just saying, and then there's Stephen King who lives in a cabin and snorts coke. Writes two good novels every three days.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

He writes perfectly rational, well-adjusted, evil clowns.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

I love reading his writing schedule.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

5 a.m. below. Wait, who is um Michael Moorcock? Who wrote like 400 novels in his life and did a ton of coke?

SPEAKER_01 21:00

I mean, you're prolific. It's in the spirit of the great authors of of ye olden times.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah, that was that was James Joyce's approach.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Um just a cool 22 minutes in.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Should we talk about the book? This is by far the worst we've ever been. But we had a topic that no one is gonna enjoy. Um fish review? No, no, no, we're saving that for the end. No, we that has to be at the end. Um, I think we do plot summary. Yeah. Um and crazy that we keep lining up sponsors. Um, so I just sent you uh our latest advertisement. If you could read that out, then I will do the um I'll do the plot summary.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

All right, excellent. So as always, thanks for supporting the show. This plot summary is brought to you by Palantir and Project Hail Mary.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Palantir, you sleep, we watch plot summary of chapters one through eighteen of darkness and light. Ryan Cahill. Woo! After a year of complaining about single POV epics, Ryan Cahill's finally made our dreams come true. Unfortunately, some dreams are actually nightmares, and now we've got a series with more characters than one piece in the Bible combined. Let's hope the people who have to color code the strength of the few don't get a hold of this book because they're going to need a full-ass masterclass to keep all of this straight. Book 2 of The Bound and the Broken picks up after a 15-minute time skip, and the free city of Belduvoir is under attack. Turns out the city that has never been taken isn't actually that hard to take if you've got dragon fire and internal sabotage on your side. Kaelin, Eric, and a bunch of nobodies are sent fleeing through the windsurfing tunnels where they find a letter from Creole Dragon Rider Alvira, a portal to the middle of the woods, and 10 billion spiders. Fun. Their flight sequence ends with the moment we're all waiting for the reintroduction the reintroduction of the other dude from the axe throwing bar in Book One. Finally. Elsewhere, Wrist has gone from Operation Honeypot to Operation Beachune to submission. He gets to learn magic, but he also gets spanked and has to recite propaganda, which honestly seems like a fine trade-off. Fresh off getting widowed, Ella, her pet wolf, and her hot friend are on a boat to Italy, and they're sharing the seas with our favorite 900-year-old coin flipping freak. Don't laugh, Farda. For reasons I won't pretend to understand, Farta decides to subject Hot Friend to a little bit of high-stakes coin flipping. Heads, nothing. Tails, she gets ripped apart like a croissant, and croissant it is. We're treated to a reintroduction of our favorite group of incompetent Marvel heroes, the Knights of Acheron. Contrary to our prediction that the Knights are just a bunch of vigilante cosplayers, we learn that the knights are still in service and blessed by God. Two of the knights are dispatched to deal with an Urak problem in some faraway village, and the pair stumbles into a nightmare beyond even their wildest dreaming. An Urak with a stick. God damn, if that blood moon ain't coming quick, hula would. Since we were running a little short on the character on POV front, Cahill introduces Dane, an exiled noble with a hot sister, a shitty brother, and an inside line to the gender discriminatory wyvern militia. Come on, guys, it's almost 3,000 years after the breaking. Let's get some fellas on those wyvern. And finally, Dan is alive. The end. I'm glad you recognized that that was a joke.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

I was thinking this was one of my least funny, but it got me. But yeah, but I it got good. Good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. The Creole Alvira was the beginning of my talk. I actually had a couple that I should have bolded because um I wrote them with an accent in mind. And you know what? I'm gonna be honest. The line, God damn, if that blood moon ain't coming quick, hullo, was supposed to be all an accent. And as I sort of saw it coming, I chickened out. You didn't do the man justice. God damn if that blood moon ain't coming quick, hulload. Red mane mud. Well, where do we begin, my friend?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Uh pick a plot line. Let's just get into it. They're they're non-consequential or non-sequential.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Do we want to start with the chat for the wheat? Do we want to save Kaitlin for the end or just bang him out?

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Let's bang out Kaelin. I mean, he's the main of it. Let's he's 18. Okay. I mean, yeah, he's he's the main character. Let's let's do him.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

This is like a this is this is becoming a familiar start to a book. A sequel. The Battle of Helm's Deep. Or just starting straight in fight, no foreplay, nothing. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. Well, logically, it makes sense given where the last book ended.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Exactly. Um, I did really like the just opening of like dwarves, elves, and Kalen just back to back fighting people off the walls. Um, it was pretty sweet.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

It's cool, good fight scene. Yeah, um, dragons getting bigger. We've got a dragon the size of the sun. Um, yeah, this just doesn't go well, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

You know, they're actually doing well, and we're introduced to the King's Guard who are absolute badasses.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Um has a comment about that. Like, I thought these are just some fuckers in purple capes. Actually, kind of badass.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Again, this is huge props to a well-defended keep, in my opinion. Like anthological world building, right? Every novel has like a tiny room that's like where the king hides. Yeah, and it's very easy to rush when you break through the outer walls, and you have like four dudes at the walls who's just like, oh, it's the king's guard.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

And yeah, why would the king's guard be like a bunch of losers? If I were the king, I I would probably be searching for the most uh PTSD'd out freaks I could that's that's mean of me. I'm looking for strong fighters, my friends. Thank you. That's much better in purple capes.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

In purple capes, but yeah, they rock. And I what's the what's the leader's name? Uh Tarman? Torman Giant Spain. Yeah, he's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Yeah, gotta keep him alive. Or Damon's gonna get you. That's a promise. He promises him. You promised me to keep that's an insane.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

That was the only silly part. That was the only silly part.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Because the promise is gonna get broken. He's like, Well, you did promise to keep also okay. Well, he got blown up by Helios. Like, what do you want him to see?

SPEAKER_01 27:28

I'm waiting for this to be a plot point three books from now where he like reunites with the king and it's like, you didn't protect my king's guard.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Dude, we are so card by illogical character writing that we're like looking at we're like looking at Dalin and Damon and be like, well, so when are they gonna have a completely pointless grudge against Kalen?

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Yeah, if Dalin comes all the way back around and doesn't become a villain, I'll I'll eat my socks, man. You know?

SPEAKER_02 27:55

In but like as a good thing, like Kalen or Kyle, you did it. I'm eating my socks, like you want me probably to do. I mean, that's not a real phrase. Is that how we open the interview? I'll eat my socks. Kyle, can you mute your mic? Travis is gonna eat a full pair of socks right now. Nom nom nom.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Nom nom nom. Um dragon fire, pretty elite, pretty scary.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Not normal fire. I know. Yeah. It's nuts there are only nine, man. I know I'm sort of cutting. Was that surprising to you? Yes, it really was surprising. Same. Well, I mean, just that there were so many. Where'd the rest go?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Well, I mean, first of all, they killed they killed half their army during the fall. Yeah. So you think I mean a couple hundred, you know, now you're down to a hundred, and then it's been four hundred years. Yeah, I guess how many dragon defectors were there? Yeah. I mean, I thought it was interesting that they're fragmented even within the nine.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Yeah, there's some who are just like out being hermits, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yeah, and then this group is just three. It's like the the last three. Fascinating. And even then, I you know, I did think it was interesting. We're skipping ahead, obviously, but like they're more they seem more interested in just figuring out who this new dragon is than necessarily killing everybody in the name of the Empire.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Yeah, that's I think going back to something we I think we actually didn't talk about it in Bound of the Broken or Blood and Fire, but we talked about it in the fall. Like, why did that fade kill Kalen and his dragon? And I think now it makes a little more sense. I yeah, but I guess you were you were on this theory that like maybe just killing a dragon isn't probably the smartest thing to do. We're in a dragon short, it's the strait is still blockaded. Um yeah, this is very interesting. And I I really want to know why that bad boy hatched. Me too. And it does seem like can we infer that there are other eggs, but they haven't hatched?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Well, there must be, right? It's safe to infer that there's got to be at least a couple more out there that haven't that haven't hatched.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Like Well, El Towar couldn't say none have hatched if there are no exactly. But I don't I don't know how many. Yeah. Have we made a dragon or the egg joke? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

No, we have not. Okay, cool. Um, we still have to I also think side note, I think it's hilarious that El Twar is still like doubting himself 400 years later as he nukes another city off the face of the earth. He's like, I wonder if we're doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

It's funny because it like before it was like, should I kill all my friends for the guy who's in league with the devil? And now he's like, I got what I wanted, but I feel like what I wanted was a little petty, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 30:45

It's like, did I did I really need to kill my best friend? And because I didn't want to have a bedtime? I don't know. That mean bureaucracy was really getting in my way.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

No one ever said El Tor is smart, but he is a good fighter.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

He is a good fighter. Um, and eventually they force the defenders to flee from the city that had never been conquered into the wind tunnels.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Well, now it's only been conquered once. Yeah. It's better than most cities. It's all pretty that's a pretty good ratio, to be honest. How long before Ivan faces consequences? He I think he straight up doesn't have to. No, he'll get ratted out because it would be crazy to write a book where he doesn't, but like I think it's wild. In real life, he could probably ride this out.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

I'm so confused about what his plan is, what his motivations are at this point. Like it's fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Spar and feel guilty internally.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Just wild. And he's just hanging out with Dalin towards the end of it, just being buddies and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Fighting to first blood.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

They're like protecting the new king from assassination.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

It feels like well, yeah, he's back. He's like, okay, I had a I had a rough night where I sold out the entire kingdom. But um let me tell you something right now. I don't think I could fight to first blood. I think I would get mad if someone elbowed me in the nose, even if we agreed that that was fine. You think you would just try to chop them? I think that's real. I didn't play a contact sport shit. Like, why are you touching me? Don't touch me.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

I mean, just the concept of first blood is is it feels like a cop out in many ways. What are you the first broken bone?

SPEAKER_02 32:30

First, like ooh, from the crowd. The first child cries. Um, covering of the eyes. Like boxing.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

They do it when you're done.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

I mean, you don't get a blood break, you know? They gotta tape, they wipe that shit off in the corner. I do back out there. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Cut me, Adrian.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Is it cut me Adrian? Yo, Adrian. Yo, Adrian. It's not, she doesn't cut him.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Wait, is Adrian a woman? Adrian is his woman. Is Mick? Who's his trainer? I think it's Mick. Cut me Mick. Yeah. Adrian is Adrian's. She's not cutting anybody. Okay. Adrian's is lying in the crowd. Wow. Dude, I thought Adrian. All right. Yeah. Um, so after Bound of the Broken recovering Rocky one through nine and creep. Sounds awesome. That should be really fun.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Um, speaking of rational, after they flee down the wind tunnels, I had wrote I writ wrote, I had written a note to be like, oh, can't wait to point out this wind tunnel plot hole that basically they they could just get followed down the tunnels slowly. But um, yeah, Kyle closes that. They they kill the tunnels, they collapse them behind them. I was really proud of him.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Also, uh, shout out to our wacky conductor because when Kaelin gets in charge of the crazy windsurf trains, uh, immediately crashes it at high speed. Oh, that was amazing. Oh my god. I know we're complaining about how long it took them to launch in book one, and uh maybe there were some precautions that did in fact need to be taken.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Yeah, I loved again, just I will stop piling on here, but I love that him steering the ship didn't just magically work out.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Get off his dick. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Eric getting impaled was hilarious, though.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Was it?

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

I like that they had to unimpale him. All right, pull him off the spit.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

With the uh the elf with the unlimited healing capabilities.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Pretty nice, honestly. Yeah. That's pretty sick. Man, whole uh like bridge building collapse thing. How would you compare that to bridge building collapse in strength of the few? You mean stabbing the bridge and falling down like it? Okay, this or cut a bridge out from under your own feet so that flying creatures can't come after you. Oh dumbest, dumbest shit.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah. No, this is this is great. I'm excited for book three. Can't wait to get back to that. Um, all right, let's disagree about this section of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Hold on. Do you think you should be do you think it's appropriate to post a Goodreads review if you DNF'd at 20%? No. No.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

I think yes, I think it is. I think it's a value. Really? But you haven't read the book. You can talk about the part you read.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Well then you should be able to it should be different ratings. You have to click a drop down, that's what percent of the part did you read. Yeah. Yeah. Or it just be like DNF versus other first 20% of the book ratings. Um yeah. Okay. Uh so you wanna you wanna duke it out over spider torture? Yeah. Yeah. It was too long.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

I agree. However, the tunnels are kind of what I hoped the dark woods would be in book one.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

They're appropriate. Did you hear that? Is that Billy? That's my cat. Oh my god. Who actually does have a beautiful singing voice, but he is furious that the office door is shut right now. Wow. Wow, it sounded like a human. Yeah, that was really loud. I hope that ends up in the recording. Um yes, I agree. The aton the tunnels were told we were told that they're gonna be scary. Uh correct. They were extremely scary. So, yeah, I agree with you on that.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yeah. Um, however, we do not get the promised depth stalkers, which I was excited to see.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Instead, soon come.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Instead, we get disgusting spiders. And I I hate spiders.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Do you know the the Pokemon Krustel? I don't know crustal. Can you give them a quick Google? Yeah, let me take a look. And listener, if you're driving, pull over, Google Krustel. That's what I'm picturing. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Oh, that's pretty spot on.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

I could rather have longer legs, though.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yeah, I was really picturing Rocky from Project Elmary.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Oh. Wait, yeah, that's really good. Yeah, what am I Krustel's not deadly enough?

SPEAKER_01 37:21

No, Krustal's got cute little pincher claws.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

We've no way to maybe we could get some pew research polls on this. I bet a lot of people did like this. It's like a well-written, exciting chase sequence. I just like find myself less and less interested in fight scenes that don't have some sort of immediate plot relevance that are just there, like, you know, like movies that'll just be like, here's a cool gunfight, you know? Like it doesn't need to be the most important thing in the world. And like fantasy, there's so many fights in fantasy books that are like that, but I do find myself checking out during them. It's probably just a me problem.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah, I mean, I I don't think you're entirely wrong. Like this seems like a pretty unique enemy that I don't really have a lot of passion for, and also just feels like a plot device to cull the herd a little bit. Because, you know, he started with like a ship. What are they like 40, 50 people in their little group walking through the tunnels?

SPEAKER_02 38:23

I thought the windrunners were like the platforms were like eight feet wide.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

No, they're huge. We got hundreds of boys on there.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Big, big mistake by me. I was picturing like a tiny little, it could hold a handful of people.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

First one, I did think that in in book one, mainly because they brought a dragon down there. Um, and the dragon was cramped on the ship. But apparently they've they are much larger platforms in book two.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Dragon on the counter.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Yeah, dragon on the counter. Um, yeah, I guess the the two important things that come from their battle with the Kirathlin is um the letter in the pendant from Alvira. Alvira. Uh, with some broken dragon eggs next to them. And the dwarven portal heart teleport teleportation device.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

You know what? I love this version of dwarves that have like steampunk technology. That's like my favorite version of dwarves. Hold on. I want to talk about Alvaro a little bit because I have it, I have a fun theory.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

And Fallman, yeah. I love Fallman too. He says y'all, and he's immediately my favorite character. That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Hold on. I also, man, I can't wait to not talk about the Knights of Acheron because I highlighted a very funny quote. Um Damn, I was trying to find uh I was trying to find the note. Um Elviro because I excited theory about uh what she was saying. Motherfucker, I can't find it. Anyways. I think so the note just says like I left more, dependents are the key, blah blah blah. I'm thinking that does not refer to the dragon eggs that we saw, my friend. What do you think about that? You think there's there's some extra dragon eggs floating around? I think it's like the note was what left with those ones, implying I left more elsewhere. You already see these ones. The note is with these ones. So I think they're gonna have to go find Alvira's stash.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

I like that. I like that as a good prediction. Um, did James Islington rip off this book by calling it the shadow of what was lost?

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Can we get a number crunch on date?

SPEAKER_01 40:51

I don't want to right now, but I'm pretty sure he didn't rip him off.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

Okay, well, if he did, Cahill can't be mad because I'm pretty sure there's a chapter in this book called The Shadow Rising. Um, Shadows Rising. Very different from The Shadow Rising, which is book four of the Wheel of Time. Ah. That is funny because they're back to back. It's Shadows Rising and Shadow of What Was Lost, which are effectively the titles of two very popular fantasy books.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

I like it. Throw it in there, man. You know, yellow. Man. Yeah. You know what I mean? I haven't looked much at the chapter names, actually.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

But can I compliment? Can I can I give myself a little shout-out? Uh-huh. That was my first Wheel of Time reference in this episode. I I'm actually impressed.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

I've been the one who's been repetitive. You're the the one with some variety. Well, it's okay, because we haven't gotten to the taint. Taint. Yeah. Um but anyway, I thought when they got to the portal, they'd be free. Um, not so much. They have a what another couple days of eating shit mushrooms and rats, which I did not enjoy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

I guess it makes sense that the portal would put them into more tunnels.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Yeah. I also really I liked the relatable anxious dragon. Yeah. Just like, get me out of here.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

This is not my natural habitat. Yeah, it's like a dog in a car. Um how do they know those mushrooms are safe to eat?

SPEAKER_01 42:22

I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Dwarves know stuff from the tunnels. They have dwarves with them.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Yeah, they've got at least one. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Don't don't quantify them like that. It's not nice. You're the one who forgot about it. One token hand. Yeah, I did. Dwarf erasure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Um we do get a kind of cheesy inspirational saying section here where they're all pumping each other up to keep going.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

What were they saying? You got this big dog.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Basically, I mean it's called it's called the the chapter, what? Light at the end of the tunnel. I like the opening. The mushrooms tasted the way shit smelled. Yeah, that's that's a banger.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Um, here's good on Kyrie's deleting that one in, because I bet he had a thought about deleting that. Keep that shit in now.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

There's nothing more important in the darkness than a ray of light.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Well, it depends on who you're asking.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah. But that was one of their uh their pump-up sections. Yeah. Um but anyway, they get out. The portal did not take them to a neighboring tunnel, it took them a thousand miles south.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

That was a really fun winter. That was a really fun map check. Yeah, I was like, oh well. Basically off the map to the south. Yeah. Yeah. What a trip. And you think, you'd think on the other side of the world, in a dark, snowy wood, you wouldn't bump into a familiar face.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

I had to, I had to really go back to figure out who the fuck Alaran was. Well it turns out a night out with the lads is everything.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Did this rub you? Was this a little too serendipitous?

SPEAKER_01 44:09

This was a little strange. It was a little bit of a stretch.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

I like objectively, I thought it was Yes, I thought it was too much of a stretch. However, I was really happy for tunnel sequence to be over and for them to not be like tied up and bound and gagged by people who didn't trust them. So I was just relieved that we're moving on to new exciting stuff.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Me too. And I think it's fun that he just instead of reuniting with his friends back in the the dwarf in the dwarven whatever it is. Do a Duke Rocker. It's a great move. These guys are just alone. Their friends are never gonna find them. Yeah. Also, this guy, sneaky, important fella, basically a prince. He is a prince. And we learn we learn some more about the lords of these lands.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

Is he more like a prince or more like the son of the mayor?

SPEAKER_01 45:10

It seems like a bigger deal than the mayor. Son of a governor. It seems like the lord of a governor of the United States, let's say.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Oh, gotcha. Like Trevor Newsom.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

You think Gavin Newsome's kids have dumb names? Braden. I could see him. Gavin Newsom children.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

I saw Gavin.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Montana Tessel Siebel Newsome. You gotta be fucking kidding me.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

Hold on. Montana and Brooklyn are his daughters, and his sons are Hunter and Dutch. Yeah, man. Named after Red Dead Redemption 2. Dutch, I don't know about this.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Oh man. Oh, these are pretty good. Brooklyn is spelled with two Ns.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Really? That's a sound. That's according to ALL.com. Very southern name. Hold on. Hold on. Well, he's been married a couple times, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah. It sounds like these are all with his with his 2008 wife. I don't know how many more he's had.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Get ready to hear a lot about that in 2028. Are you excited? Weehaul. Are you excited for Republicans to make a huge deal out of Kavin Newsome's marriage history?

SPEAKER_01 46:35

I can't wait for family politics to be back on the table.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

As he's running against uh JD Vance and his new wife, Erica Kirk. Yeah, that'll be I can't wait for that. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

I can't wait to vote for the uh Vrabel Rossini duo.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

I would. Listen.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

They might as well go for it.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

He got the fucking Patriots to the Super Bowl. Yeah. Okay. What were we talking? Are we done with Kalen? We're done with Kalen.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

He's in the middle of nowhere. That's where we leave him.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

With a guy he met at a bar.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

You know what? Can I can I propose something? We end the pod. Wow. Or let's talk about Dane. Or do you want to save Dane? And we do like the book ends of the big sections. We do Kalen, a bunch of filler, Dane.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

I mean, we could. We could.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

What do you want to do?

SPEAKER_01 47:35

I don't know. I don't really want to leave it because I want to start reading again. Leave what? The pod.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

No, no, we're keeping the pod going.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Do you want to talk about Dane? Yeah. Dane's fun. Out of nowhere, dog.

unknown 47:51

Bro.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

I was so confused because of all the D names. I know. Also, I was driving to Vegas to go see f fish with you at the sphere. So I was audiobooking a little bit and they started talking about this guy, Dane. And in my brain, they were talking about Damon.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah, I struggled too. And because we had the you know, similar to the whole Aleron thing, I had to go look up to see if this guy was anywhere, and then he wasn't anywhere. Um, can we talk about how you eat fruit?

SPEAKER_02 48:22

I just let it run down my chin. I look like a vampire who just sucked a neck.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

There are two scenes. One is with Rindall later on, the psychopathic torturer, and the other is with Dane, where I don't think Cahill knows how to eat fruit.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Or maybe you just watched Denethor absolutely eating out a tomato.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

And it was like, yeah, we're gonna need a little bit of that. Our opener for Dane, he's munching an apple, letting the juices just drip all over himself, and then eats the core and then just goes straight into a social setting.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

I like that when he finds his sister later, she brings him an apple. It's like, I know you sick f you like this. All right, just go eat it over there. Don't eat it in this cave. It's gonna be loud as shit. Yeah. Oh man, I thought that was hilarious. Uh dead of core. Oh man. I've got an idea for a scene. We're gonna have a hobbit sing a fucking ditty while a guy eats the world's juiciest tomato. The movie's gonna be three and a half hours. Okay. Dane.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Uh we're in the cool new town of Skyfell, visiting House Ateres, not Atreides.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

I'm gonna throw this out there. Why does this part of the map have like place names that are way different? Although I think all the other place that I'm there's just like kind of very consonant-heavy Germanic sounding places or whatever. But then we have Skyfall, which is protected from the rest of the of the continent by a place called the Hot Gates. What the fuck's up with that?

SPEAKER_01 50:02

This is the California man. This is California. We're vibing over here.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Careful. We must pass through the hot gates. Oh man. Yeah, I was doing a real deep dive on his high res map on his uh website. Which it's pretty cool. No one looks out for their fans like Cahell, man. Putting a high res map on your thing that is has to be split into two JPEGs. I don't know if you've seen that. It's a big map. It's a big map, it's high response. Big boy. Told you. Big boy. Um okay. Yeah, he's here and he's back. And he's not an ordinary boy.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

He's a rich boy. Or he's the son of a formerly rich family, which has fallen from grace in the empire.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Because they maybe perhaps didn't like the very kind Feynmortum.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

They did not. And his papa was buddies with Asen and decided to rebel, although it didn't go very well because he vacuiled. And now there's now there's a rule that you have to give over your firstborn son to the Empire.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

So I that's I know that I spaced out. Is that why he was exiled? What's up with that?

SPEAKER_01 51:11

So that's one of like I think I think so. I think that was basically why he left.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

Well, if that was it, then his siblings wouldn't have been mad at him for leaving. I I kind of thought we didn't get the full story.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

I don't think we got the full one. I know he like he left for 12 years. He was running around, maybe doing rebellion stuff.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Seems like he was probably kicking it with Asen. I mean, he must have been because Asen wrote him a letter.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

So certainly. Um, but anyway, we get a nice little bait and switch here where he thinks his brother's gonna be his friend.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 51:45

The sister hates him.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Also, I know we've been watching a decent amount of anime. Anime betrayal. No, I think he was talking about how attractive his sister was too much.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Yeah, he was. You're actually correct on that. There was a little bit too much. She's beautiful in there. And strong. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Yeah. That must be weird to leave and just be like, that's my little sis, and you come back and she's like a tattooed badass warrior.

unknown 52:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:11

What happened to you? Who's like a mom and rides wyvern's? You're like, okay. Yeah. I think it's cool as hell. And cool shit. Um, yeah. The brother guy, I can't. I was. You know what I was thinking as I was reading that? I was like, it's so nice that his brother, you know, I get the gut reaction. Where the fuck were you? All that stuff. But then he welcomes him back, and man, was I wrong.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

I know. I actually truly wasn't expecting things to go the way they did. Yeah. Um, but he turns into a bit of a whiny bitch. And also, we get the story later on from his sister that um he basically sold her out and her lover and son to the Empire, which is brutal. Brutal. Put the hit out. Put a hit out. Or, well, child's alive somewhere. That's her new mission in life.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Yeah. Well, uh, hubby's dead. Hubby dead. Hubby dead. Yeah. But at the same time, though. Why are you trying to marry some scrub when the fate of your house is at stake? Right? You know? Unbelievable. Why marry for love when you can marry for money? Money please. Money please. Um, okay. So we got a new mythical beast. Tell me that ain't fun.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

I love a good wyvern. And they're like little small dragons that only ladies can ride. But not it's the wyvern that are pro the problem. Yeah, because they they they're too frail.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

I like the thinking they're like, yeah, like some men are too big. Also, the wyvern just don't fuck with us, and I don't know why. He's gonna ride a wyvern, right? There's oh 100%. 100%. We can't get this set up where he's like, I've dreamed of riding a wyvern ever since I was very small, very light boy.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

It's pretty sick they've got a cave full of them, though. Shit's about to get real.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

I'm Googling difference between wyvern and dragon. Isn't it the arms, the forelegs? I think someone told me that and I Googled it, and they were like, that's like a distinction some people make, but it yeah, it's not real.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

Yeah, actually, when I was at the Washington Zoo and I saw my last wyvern, I really did notice that it was smaller than the dragons. Oh my god, I just heard Billy.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

That is actually a wyvern. That's a dragon. Billy may be a wyvern. Okay, hold on, hold on. I'm I'm gonna get to the bottom of this really quickly. Okay, here we go. Wyverns have two legs. Dragons, four, twice the number. Twice. Wyverns can't be called harmless in any way. Why are you reading this from a third grade article? What is this? What is this website? Dragons are also a lot larger than wyverns. They're believed to be the most powerful creatures in the world. Those smaller, easier to attack, and with fewer powers, wyverns can move around a lot faster than what is this website? Is this like a fourth wing book report? It's sevenesl.com. This is okay okay. In short, dragons and wyverns can seem very similar, so it's not surprising that they're often confused. If you look closely, however, you will see that they're pretty different both in their appearance and ability. So, yeah, I guess the moral of the story is next time you see them next to each other, look closely. You'll observe a number of differences in their physical features and their powers.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

Very helpful. I'm so glad we went down this rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

Wait. I'm gonna Okay, I'm gonna link this in the episode somehow. They have examples of differences between Wyvern and dragons. So here's an example of Wyvern. Wyvern's sting cooldown has been lowered from 1.5 men to one min. Example of dragon. The landscape of the Great Wall is like a dragon. Another example of dragon. The bad fairy is very angry. She becomes a dragon. Okay. Wyvern example. Wyvern's sting may now be used in combat.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

It's like they're mixing like Dota tooltips and like mythology.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

I don't know. Is this so strange that it must have been written by a human? It looks like it was Google translated to death.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

I think so.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

Fascinating. Okay, cool. Great bod content. Dane and Elizabeth. What's her sister's name? Uh Alina. I wish I had a physical copy of this book. Alina. Yeah. So I mean, I don't know what more there is to say other than, yeah, rebellion brewing, like and excited to see these fuckers attack. I'm sure they'll reconnect with Asen at some point. Um Tara United.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

It's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

You think their plot is gonna be like quite localized to that part of the of the continent? They're gonna like liberate their city, take it over in rebellion, or are they gonna fuck off and go find Asen?

SPEAKER_01 57:16

I think they I think they unite with a main force somewhere. It'd be cool if they come back and retake Baldwar.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Yeah, I don't know if the Wyvern are enough to take the city. I guess yeah. Because this chart unfortunately did not help me establish how big a wyvern is. That's true. Or how powerful. But they have poison stingers. Okay. I kind of thought we'd have more to say about Dane. We mostly talked about the apple and then went on that wyvern chart. That's not the longest section. It's three long chapters. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um unless you object. Let's go to Ella. Cool. I love Farda, man. Maybe a bad guy, maybe insane, but electric on page.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Farda feels no pain. He loves his coin. He's broken. Is he bound? No, he's broken. He lost his dragon. He doesn't feel physical pain or emotions. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

Here's my question. What's up with the coin? Is that related to some other god, or is it just some freaky thing that he came up with about the river of fate and blood?

SPEAKER_01 58:37

It kind of feels like his own little freaky thing, not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

So he's just like, I'm either gonna kill or not kill this woman. Let's let fate decide.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

So he's a he's a crazy person.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

He's he's a lunatic, yeah. He's a good lunatic. He's a 500-year-old broken dragon riding lunatic.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

Very Sanderson.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

Yes. Yeah. Um, also, as cool as Farda is, Ella is a terrible stowaway.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

Not good.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

She can't get a better fake name. She had five days in town to prep and still says her real name.

SPEAKER_02 59:20

Yeah. And then it's like, where are you going? She's like, all right. Well, I got my husband killed by giving my real name. But I go with someone else's real name. That will be fine.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

That clearly this guy knows. To this yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

If I give the name of a fucking baron in town to the police, surely they won't know it. Right. Yeah, that's probably not gonna be good whenever they get to Italy.

SPEAKER_01 59:43

So I know.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

But RIP her hot companion. Strangled. Strangled with air. According to the chapter. But according to the story Farda tells her later, uh she offed herself. She done jumped off. Couldn't handle it. Ella she's hot on the trail. She knows something he's going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Yeah, she's not she's not completely stupid. She's she's like, I don't know if I trust this guy, but also I'm pretty alone here. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Does she actually have reason to suspect that he killed her?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Um, I believe she kind of interrogates him.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

But her first thought was like, what did you do? Which I was wondering why she thought that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Yeah, that's a fair point.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

I mean we can't discount the fact that he's a crazy person and walks around flipping a coin, so maybe she's like this nutso guy. Should probably ask.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Yeah. Um I mean he he doesn't really give her the best cover story, to be fair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

I mean, it's just two bad liars trying to trick each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

Yeah. Yeah. But one guy is super magical and one is just a normal girl from a village. With a wolf, yeah. Yeah. Faneur's hanging. But that's pretty much the whole thing. Fener's hanging out. They're gonna take what a wagon together now.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

They agreed to travel together.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

Yeah. And eventually he's gonna kidnap her.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

I think they're gonna kiss. Do you think he wants to kiss her?

unknown 1:01:34

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

I don't think he wants to kiss anybody at this point.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

He feels nothing. He just wants to kiss his dragon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

Uh okay. Fun stuff. Wrist. Bing bong. Wrist Mage Academy. Uh, these people suck. Yikes. Oh my god. They were nice to him when he wasn't an initiate. Talk about it's brutal. I love that Ace and was like, nah, we don't need to worry about him. They're gonna be just fine. I was like, what are you talking about? They're fucking these are the evilest people in the whole fucking series.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

Oh my god, they're like slicing his back open repeatedly for not answering for not paying attention to claws.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

They just inflict like insane magic pain on him for yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

I mean, to be fair, it's the best way to teach kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:27

Well, we talked about my principal spanking me. I know. Um, yeah, go listen to our Will of the Many episode if you want to hear some lore about my sprint my principal who spanked and collected moths.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Some Avery backstory.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:40

That was good.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

Um yeah, he's getting indoctrinated in Lorean revision revisionist history. Yeah, which I find hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Uh okay. And the important well, I mean, there a bunch of important stuff that happens. Uh he asks if any letters have come back uh from the rookery. One has. His parents. Is this real? Is this a I don't know why I'm so dead set on letter magic being.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Well, to be fair, okay. You don't need you don't need letter magic. You just need to write the letter. But wouldn't he know his mom's handwriting? How many letters has he read from his mom in his life? He's left.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:27

I know my parents' handwriting.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

Yeah, but he's lived in the same village in her house for his entire life.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:36

I don't know. I feel like you'd know your parents' handwriting.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

You don't have to write school notes in the grove, man. Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

I'm under the assumption like a letter is a pretty rare thing in a society.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

No, I believe you. I believe you. I'm just trying to figure out what's happening. Because this all does feed into my possibly fake letter theory.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

Oh no, I think your fake letter theory is accurate. I think they I mean the letter is very pro-empire.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:02

They got a real letter.

unknown 1:04:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

They got forger to copy the hand. Okay, okay, okay. This is all working.

unknown 1:04:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

Yeah, because the letter did not say what I thought. They're like, we're so happy you're in magic school. This is so great for you. Be safe out there, buddy. Yeah, good luck. There's a mean man out there who says he's the draw lid. Yeah. I'm pretty open to that being a fake letter, but if it's a real one, then I guess we're not gonna see his parents ever again because that's uh a neat and tidy way of getting him away from them.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:32

Yikes. Um yeah, I don't want to be in school here. That's pretty much the summary of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

But do you want to be a battle mage? That's what he's gonna be. That's the interesting thing about it, is like despite the fact that they're treating him like poo-poo, he's still kind of in.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

Yeah, I think they recognize he's got some pretty big powers or some big potential.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

Um, so this is like your little crash course, and and he doesn't fully buy into it, like, which which is good. He's retaining a little bit of common sense that you know, maybe these people are a little cuckoo who keep beating me up and telling me things that Baron told me were wrong.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

That's another like super reasonable thought that he had. It was like, all right, I'm from a place that kind of didn't fuck with the Empire. I should re-examine some of my priors, but maybe they're right. He just said like a very level-headed response to all this. Because I actually don't I was thinking about this. What does he actually know about Feynmortum?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

Just what Theron said.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

Yeah, like probably not much, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

Like just rumor. Um Yeah, so he's like, he's like, you know what? These people are at least feeding me and haven't killed me, so I'm gonna keep kind of listening to what they have to say, but I'm gonna keep a good head on my soldiers.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:50

Didn't send me in the woods to get attacked by an UREC and a bear and a cat and one of my friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

Yeah. Pretty rough start.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:59

Yeah. Um, so yeah, but he gets like the early fucking call-up to the big leagues, he gets his robes. Yeah, I know they're like, we're going to war.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

We need all the mages we can get.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

Battle mage time. Black robes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Blood Moon is coming. And speaking of Blood Moon.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

Are you ready to hang out with some idiots? Archeon, you know. Acheron. We gotta get this down. I was Archeon boy last episode, but I think now I have to be Acheron boy.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

My name's Callin Vaughan. I'm 700 years old.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

700 years old. Still said my greatest accomplishment is watching everyone die.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:38

Um they got wiped the fuck out in the fall. My goodness.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

Yeah, that really sucks. They're also more Wasn't like his squad was the most successful and he brought four home.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:51

Yeah, that's funny. I think uh I was quite confused by the numbers in the fall because I remember being like, why are there seven knights of Akron? Couldn't have Akron made more. He did. There's a hundred in their ten orders, and Calambore is like uh head of squad, whatever. Yeah. Alpha squad. Um can I remember uh Blood and Fire, you were not complaining, but noting uh how many people were described as handsome? Yes. Well, goodness, do I have a quote for you? Uh one of the knights of Acheron, his name is Arden. Um here is uh first sentence introducing him. Physically, Arden was a specimen. Which is like the only thing I have highlighted on the page. He was a specimen, man. Look at that, look at that.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

Was great for me. And Arden is our our last sigil bearer from the prologue, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

Yeah, that's fun. It's like such a man, what a weird mix of people who are 700 and people who are not.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Yeah, no, I appreciated like going from the sparring chamber to his austere office, like into the side of the rock. Like, come in to my dojo.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:10

And then cut to sexy hot tub scene, and then jump through a portal and fight a thousand or what a crazy sequence this was.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

That was wild. They got Soul Blades, they've got Haraya's waters that healed them.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:23

And we also got a taint. We got an alu. Well, we'll get to the taint, um, which must be cleansed. Uh, they also alluded to the guy who um Elamat and Camelin. Uh he was just on a mission, and they did something by like paying off the Thieves Guild, which is very, very ankmorepork. Yes. Um Is that corrupt? What are they doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:49

It's not corrupt. It's part of the mission.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

I want to know if they're actually like not on the up and up.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:57

What are they doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

Shouldn't they be killed? Shouldn't they be breaking up the Thieves Guild?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

Uh Thieves Guild helps run the city. We know this from Ankhmore pork.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:06

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point because then you can put a quota on the amount of thieving.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:11

Exactly. For a small annual fee, you can walk safely through the streets. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:16

Don't outlaw it, regulate it. Okay. Um, yeah, so Urak running. Urak going nuts out there. So they send two guys to go check it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:31

Their newest guy and their like second newest guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:33

Yeah. They must not have known that they were 10 million Urak. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

No, they're like, it's a couple dudes in a village.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:40

Yeah. And our favorite shit from The Fall is back, Bloodrants. Ooh. They are such a dramatic step up from a nor normal Urak.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:51

Yeah, these guys are fierce.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:54

Yeah. Even the powerful, honorable knights of Akeron can struggle to take that. I he's got to make them do something badass, because at this point they are pure comedy to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:07

Oh, yeah. All I can think of is Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the knights just run away all the time. Yeah. Run away. Run away.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

12 o'clock and all.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:19

Fish la vache.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:23

And um you know, remember when we were laughing at the appearance of the golden stag? I got a similar response when they got like a weird Urak who could talk and was holding a stick and staring at them. What is this freaky little fucker doing? Why is he wearing clothes? Well, yeah, he's not so brainless after all. It felt like when someone dresses up their dog is how I was imagining it was Urak with a stick.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

Hello, boys. I'm just harvesting some dead for my blood magic.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:56

I'm a shaman, peaceful shaman, let me go. I'll be at the sphere. Thank you very much. Yeah. Big big fan, honestly, more Urak Shaman, maybe a POV.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

I think I'd enjoy it. I think it would be great.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:11

They're fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:11

Yeah, and then the boys run away. Classic.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

Yeah. They don't chase him down. Um, and then they tell everyone to get the fuck out of the village or they're all gonna die. Um, we'll see if they do.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:24

Yeah, because the blood moon is a common big battle.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:27

I think they should have stuck around to make sure that they did.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:30

No, man, they gotta go back to the cave. It's safe there.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:33

Yeah, get in those healing waters. Yeah, well, that's a nice vaccaron. A uh just a parade of incompetence. Yeah, I hope they do something cool. They have to. Because I saw Kyle posing art about the knights, and he definitely wants them to be badass. Yeah. They are in many. I mean, the sentinel armor and their blades are incredibly badass. Yeah, to be fair, they have god armor and they're 700 years old. Like kind of cool. We've just watched them take it on the chin a couple times. They're careful. There's only a hundred of them. They have like a weird dojo fret house thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh let's see what else we got here. What else we got?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:17

Just a couple loose ends. We've got Rendell torturing people with Fritz.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:24

Yeah, they got one of the uh elf buddies whose uh whose names I said I wouldn't remember and uh still don't. Yep. Cool. Oh, Theron lore. We get some Theron lore. Um so the Elves, after uh after the fall, split into two factions. Uh the uh let's hide and fuck off faction and the let's fight to the death faction. Theron didn't like either, and uh so now he's kinda on his own there you go. Yeehaw. Yeah, the honorable choice. Indeed. And um we did get a little more ace and lore as well. Mm-hmm. You thought one wife arc. You thought one dead wife was bad. How about two?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:20

Yeah. That's brutal.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:22

There's also a really bizarre line. It's like my first wife had my heart, but my second had my soul. It's like, okay, well, that's a little disrespectful to the first. No, really. I liked my first wife, but my second wife, she really was the good one.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:46

Oh my god, that's hilarious. I was like, where I don't remember his second wife. No, he is talking about his dragon was his first like soul bond.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:54

I liked my first wife, but my dragon. Now that's the one I'm sad about. That's even crazier.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:01

No, no, he's like, because then he's broken, and then he's like, I thought nothing would ever get me out of being broken. And turns out I wanted to be a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:10

Didn't share a brain with her. Barely knew her. Brutal. Wow. All right, that's just a that is an aggressive swing and a miss by me.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:19

I'm so glad we we cleared that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:22

I was so desperate to find comedy in this book that I just uh I think I like almost intentionally misinterpreted that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:30

Well, Ace's great and he's bomb his kids. And uh I hope he doesn't die, but I'm worried about him.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:37

Yeah. And then other than that, we've got just like a little bit of palace intrigue. Dalin's Damon and Damon and Ivan.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:47

Yeah, there's like a whole refugee situation that I think is gonna get tense. Like everyone's now living in the dwarven city of Dickka Dicka, and and I think they're gonna wear out their welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

Yeah, and then we have an assassination attempt that Dalin actually breaks up, um, or his his hunch saves Damon at least.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

Um, and it it's one of the well, I guess this is actually intriguing that one of the dwarven queens, one of the four rulers, was the one who ordered the assassination.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:20

So dwarven queens are a little meddlesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:25

Yeah, one of them's getting naked, the other's trying to kill you.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:28

One yelled at Kalen for being 18. Yeah. Top of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:34

On the hot crazy scale, they're doing just fine, though. We don't know if they're hot. I'm pretty sure Kalen, Kalen looked twice.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:45

Uh maybe that's where this goes. Yeah. And Ivan continues to have a really strange arc where he betrayed the whole fucking kingdom and and suffers no consequences as of yet. And is also a racist against dwarves. Doesn't like dwarves. Yeah, I don't know what to do with that guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:08

He's so weirdly loyal and he misses he misses his buddy that he the former king who he got killed.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:15

Yeah, it's weird that he's like such a super soldier, but he also sold them out half a book ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:22

Yeah, it's really weird. It's really weird.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:24

I wish I wish we got more about what led him to do that. I have a hunch we will. Yeah, there has to be more. He's in this book way too much for us not to get some answers. Um I think that's it. Like Edward at an hour 20. I know we did 20 minutes of talking about Philip Pullman.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:47

But it it's a tough one because there's so many characters getting introduced in somewhat like shallow settings that you know there's not too much to talk about, but it's still important to give some note about them.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:59

Um I think that's we are we're firmly in the build-up stage of this book. And uh yeah, excited to see where it goes. It's like uh I don't think there's any point in weighing in on the quality of this. This is one small section of a very long book, and uh we'll see where it goes.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

Yeah. What I'll say is if he can pull it off and tie some of these threads together, it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:26

Um, I'm excited about everything I've read so far. I yeah, I don't think any of the characters are duds. Ivan's probably the my least favorite character.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:36

But not because he's uh it's just because I don't get him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:40

Yeah, I think it's just that we don't understand the motivations just yet. And and just the strangeness of him committing this horrible betrayal, but like it hasn't come out yet. Yeah. Um, yeah, I haven't read something in a while with like this scale. No, it's fun to start a new content spanning many, many POV epic. Like this is this is the good shit. Love this. This is the good shit. And we're out of the tunnels. Thank God. Yeah, I know. I did I did love Valeris rolling in the snow like a dog. And it's snow dragon. I was like, it's like a husky. That's so beautiful. Very happy for them. Okay. Well, uh, I don't know. We'll be back in like a week. We're gonna do three episodes on this book because it's long as hell.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

That's gonna be awesome. I'm actually really excited to actually be able to pick the book up again and read.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:30

So yeah, dude, when I was in Spider Hill for the chapter that was 300 pages long, I think. Um, that's when I was driving to Vegas and Google routed me down Big Tahunga Canyon Road. I was in a place I had never seen before that was like technically in LA County. Driving through the mountains, I had no service for a full hour. I went off some, I went across these bridges like several hundred feet in the air. While the spiders are attacking you. Yeah, while I was reading about them running from the fucking spiders. Where am what am I doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:02

That's stressful.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

Yeah. I think that's probably why I didn't like a spider sequence because I was driving down Big Tonga Canyon Road with no service.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:10

Like I'm I'm lost. I'm in high elevation over a cliff.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:15

I should be driving through Palmdale and instead I might be on another fucking planet. I wanted to get my in and out from Morongo gas station. Ooh, shout out to Hone Ranch Outlets. If you know you very true that. All right. Um Travis, any parting thoughts? What do you want to leave? What what do you what do you want our listeners? What's the last thing they hear before this episode ends? Pain before pleasure. Pleasure. Never.