Book Two is Better

Of War and Ruin by Ryan Cahill: Episode One

• Travis & Avery • Season 4 • Episode 10

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0:00 | 1:22:10

Ch. 1-18! 

Who knew that 200 pages without Calen could be so fun? In this section, Cahill treats us to a pluralistic monarchy of dwarves, a council of elven rulers, and whatever you call Kallinvar's palace of pain. 

Also, why is everyone so angry? Did they read The Art of War by Sun Tzu's Epherian cousin? Farda is throwing lightning bombs, Dann is fighting his way through Groot's evil twins, and Kallinvar is swinging at the first taint he sees! Somebody calm these fools down. I'm sure that nothing bad will happen in the endless desert of nightmares. 

Anyway, send us your favorite bird at booktwoisbetter@gmail.com or on Reddit/Discord @booktwoisbetter! Love ya. 

SPEAKER_02

It's thirty-five degrees. It's Wednesday. Hello. It is Wednesday, my dudes. My dudes. Scream really loud into the mic right now. Okay, thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_01

Sound dampener. Here we go. Alright, Avery, I've got a bit. Is it I talk about how good the Lego movie is? I love this bit. I'm gonna name you my favorite. I'm gonna name you my favorite of the hundred greatest bird names.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Really? Yep. Real bird?

SPEAKER_01

Real bird.

SPEAKER_00

Bearface go away bird.

SPEAKER_01

It kind of reminds me of No Face from Miyazaki. Oh, this is a weird looking bird.

SPEAKER_02

That's what I'm saying. Oh bare faced. I was okay. I was thinking bears and the animal bear. No, it's a bear-fisted port. There's nothing on this bird's face. Nothing. It's native to the eastern Afrotropics. Feels like a word I shouldn't be allowed to say.

SPEAKER_01

Uh that's my favorite kind of house music, actually. Afro. Is that kaigo?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I had a coworker. It was like my first job out of school. We were talking, I think I asked her what kind of music she was into, and she said Tropical House. Obviously, I said, What is that? And uh she's apparently like very embarrassed by the answer. Like it kept coming up. She's like, I can't believe I said tropical house is what I is what I like. I have no problem with tropical house. I'll I'll dance all day. That's the definition of positive vibe. 100%.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. On a different vibe. Yes. Bird number two. Diabolical night jar. Mmm. Also known as the satanic night jar.

SPEAKER_02

Does it make like a horrible sound? Okay, this bird didn't deserve this name.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's kind of evil. If it has multiple evil names.

SPEAKER_02

It's got a really fucked up mouth. So I don't know why that really came out. It looks like a salamander. What a weird bird this is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Alright. Thank you for the bird facts.

SPEAKER_01

And uh no, I'm not done. This is my this is my prime time here. Uh third, gang gang cockatoo. Gang gang.

SPEAKER_02

That's like an 80s. That's like an 80s hip hop group.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, they're shooting hoops.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, cockatoo. This guy looks like trippy red.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, though. He's a pretty funky looking dude. Um, those are my top three.

SPEAKER_02

Any others? Top honorable mention.

SPEAKER_01

Honorable mention, uh, Banana Quit.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Tiny Hawk. Uh More Pork, shout out Pratchett. And The Monotonous Lark.

SPEAKER_02

Change up your fucking song. Oh, the same song. Wow. Who would have thought? Um if if the Savannah Bananas were playing directly next to your house on a Wednesday and someone offered you a ticket, would you go? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think I would too. I think I think I would I I'd like to see the spectacle. And nobody I've I've talked to some people who have been, and it's like the Harlem Globetrotters. Like I loved it as a kid.

SPEAKER_02

I did I did see some guy doing a bit online. He's like pitching the Savannah Bananas. He's like, they bring a random eight-year-old girl on field and they all hump her. It is really it's sexual in a really unsexy way.

SPEAKER_01

That's the part I don't like is like just pure sexual TikTok dancing.

SPEAKER_02

Why humping? Stop humping.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm not sure how much of the game. I just want to see some baseball at the end of the day. The NBA draft was a bl the NBA draft was like right next to my house today, and I didn't even know it until I walked outside.

SPEAKER_02

Now there's an event that I don't think I need to go to in person.

SPEAKER_01

Going to a draft makes no sense to me. No, you're gonna be a real freak.

SPEAKER_02

Um Okay, should we talk about of war and ruin?

SPEAKER_01

Of war and ruin. Yes, let's do it. Uh we're covering chapters one through eighteen today, which is our best estimation at a part one. Probably a four-parter. This boy is long.

SPEAKER_02

It's definitely feeling like a four-parter. Have we done that before? It's hard to remember if we have. I think Shadows Upon Time we did four. Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine we got through that in three. Yeah, that was a long boy. I mean, there's so many chapters of Hadrian telling people that their God isn't real. So we've covered that in three episodes. Nope. Yeah. But I'm excited. We're on the new book. How's it hitting you, friend?

SPEAKER_01

It's a little bit mixed for me. I would say it it hasn't brought me to my zenith of book enjoyment. Uh neither, however, has it brought me to my lowest points. Your Nadir. My nadir or my zenith. Uh all right, here's the parts I really like about it so far. I think the writing quality has been really good. It can be a little prose prosaic at points. Uh, but generally, I think it's sharper. I think his internal monologues are better. Um I think the lore in this is a little bit more trusting of the reader. We don't have like a big exposition dump in two or three chapters. You're just getting a little lore IV drip throughout this whole first part. And the world's getting bigger and it's exciting. So more worlds and characters and gods and stuff. Um what I dislike is I got about two pages of Kalen. Which you know, for better or worse. And there's so many characters, I just feel like I'm like, Yeah, oh, can we just cross paths already? Just like let me see it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I this is the first time in this series that I have felt like uh Ugh when I say when I start some peop some people's chapters, which is crazy it's taken this long because we've had a lot of POV characters. Like through book two, I I don't know, I kind of like them all equally. Even like even Dane, like when he was introduced, I was like, really? And three pages in. I was like, I like Dane. I'm ready to read about Dane. Who was your who triggered that for you the most?

SPEAKER_01

Who was your most ugh character?

SPEAKER_02

Um I know how this is gonna sound because there's one female POV character. It was Ella. And and I'm not gonna lie to you, man. I'm kind of ready to get out of Dick A Dicka Dwarven murder plot. I you know what?

SPEAKER_01

I'm light spoilers, we're not getting out of it. I know that we're not. It's just it's just getting started, but that doesn't mean I don't want it to be over. I I hear you. I think it was a mistake to create uh monarchies that have multiple kings and queens in every kingdom of this book. I don't understand that decision by Cahil. There are four kings and queens and and then six and the elves. It's like brother.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah to me at this point that, like, yeah, I know everyone's trying to get something, but I don't know who these people are. How am I supposed to care? Are you telling me I'm gonna have to pay more attention while I'm reading? No, thank you. Do you know what the word prosaic means? No. Yeah, it's it's a weird one. I think it means the opposite of what people think about.

SPEAKER_01

So when I said it, I'm like, this word fits what I want to say, but I'm pretty sure I'm not saying the right word.

SPEAKER_02

You've definitely done the same thing because it sounds like it would mean flowery.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But it means like dull. All I can think is pro-Zac, though, because I've been watching The Pit. So I'm in full doctor mode. Kyle's been on some pro Zac. He's off with a Zac, I think, in this first quarter.

SPEAKER_02

This book needs a little zempic, you know? You could give this book a fair rating if you DNF'd seven percent.

SPEAKER_01

No, and why would I want to?

SPEAKER_02

Like, I don't get it. I still don't get it. DNF read rising 7%, I think about at least twice a week.

SPEAKER_01

It's so funny. One star. Just thinking that's the whole world. Like you've missed so much life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Having I mean, having done some writing myself, if someone read the first 20 pages of my book and gave it a one-star, well, I would think that was really funny. Like, what the fuck? Like, just don't review it at that point. You don't even yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I still am asking the community to send us personally your one-star reviews, but not post them anywhere because that'll hurt our feelings.

SPEAKER_02

I'd like to do that with an app with an album. I listened to most of the first song. Yeah. One star. Sorry, pet sounds.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I think the only thing I could do that for would be modern Kanye. You didn't you don't like bully?

SPEAKER_02

I would be happy doing it for one of the three Drake albums that he released. Oh God. Drake's back. In some ways. He's back? He's back in the popular album. He's releasing music. No one can argue that. Um anyway. Could I interest you in a plot summary?

SPEAKER_01

I think so. And also just a quick caveat before though. That just because we have some light criticism doesn't mean we ain't ripping through this with full enjoyment.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I I don't know why I withheld my praise because I was like, we're gonna get into all the fun stuff now. Yeah. Um this is still great. Like it's also me, yeah. Yeah. I okay. My one prefatory thought I want to get to. Um we talked about this, I think, at the ends of book one and two. Like, this is not a series where it like wraps up at the end of a book and we start fresh narratives. Like, I think you gotta see the whole thing through. Exact same feeling here. I am withholding all judgment on this book until I finish it. Like, this is I don't know. It feels like when people release reviews of single episodes of a TV season, you know, come on. Like, you can see the whole thing through. So 100%. Um, I'm having fun and still excited to see where it goes. But yeah, it's just there's so much more. Okay. Um, chapters one through eighteen. Plot summary of the first 25% aka, the first 900,000 words of War and Ruin by Ryan Cahill. The Ryan Cahill has turned into a Ryan Comountain because goddamn, this book is thick. My paperback copy is the exact size and shape of a Nissan cube, but I can't even use it to pick up babes. Lame. Our friendly neighborhood, Dralade, is ready to hit the road after a short stent in the quaint seaside town of King's Pass, and he gets the address of a nearby BB from a friendly Imperial battle mage. Kalen and Coat arrive and are put up by an old weirdo who not only has the power to touch the spark and see the future, he can also cook up a mean-ass stew. We get a little info about druid powers, and the old man sends Kaelin off with a little cocaine mirror of unknown utility, a prophetic riddle he doesn't understand, and a bunch of stew pies that are definitely going to explode in Kalen's backpack. Fledgling diplomat Dan has a frightening encounter in the Darkwood with a bunch of tree ghosts before arriving in Arendel, home of a bunch of elves who do not fuck with Theron for the crime of not committing a crime like 400 years ago. Risk continues to get fast-tracked through Battle Mage School, and he's doing so well that Gentle Fanmortem is considering turning him into one of those cute, sexy fades we all love so much. He watches the Imperial Battle Mages crank out some group spells in a military parade, and wouldn't you know it, we get to see those very spells put into action in a Farta chapter just a few pages later. It's almost like Kahil had this whole book planned. Ella is still on her quest to do nothing in particular, and she finally gets to catch up on local news, i.e., her brother is the Drawlade and her parents are dead. Now she's going to find Kaelin, which seems to be the task most characters are settling on in this book. Eltawar visits Dragon Depression Island to try to recruit a member of the Dragon Guard who went into hiding after she realized killing all of her friends during the fall was probably a bad thing. She tries to guilt trip Eltawar about his continued service of Fanmortem, but Eltawar responds by Well, he doesn't really respond, but we already know he isn't the thinking type, so what did you expect? Back in Dickka Dicka, Dalin makes a mistake we've all made at some point, telling a mentally unstable king he's a cuck and a loser in front of his royal bodyguards. Dalin is arrested but is able to shake free when Damon decides to march his people towards a bunch of dwarven bolt throwers. Dalin and the Italian towmeister herself, Belina Luna, decide to play detective and solve the whole Dwarven Regicide plot. And they also have a Shallan-esque joke-off about Dix that really has me questioning my previous remarks about Belina being the best character in the series. We also get a few check-ins with Aphuria's favorite improv group, the Knights of Acheron. They've got a new sheriff in charge, and great news, he's hearing voices and has anger issues. Another dub for the KOA, pain before pleasure. There's probably other stuff in this section, but the summary has probably exceeded the length of the barredcore version of Get Lucky, so I'm going to cut it there. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_01

I knew once uh we had three full sentences on stews. It's gonna be a long. It's gonna be a long summary.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, maybe I didn't need two stew jokes. I was thinking that as I was typing, I was like, where are they gonna keep these pies?

SPEAKER_01

You can have a Marie calendar spot pie on the road. You know, I'll give I'll give Kyle some credit. He ties the plot hole that I always look for in books, which is leaving all their belongings behind every time the inn that they're sleeping in is invariably attacked. There's always a little segment that's like, and then we picked up our bags from the innkeeper and we put everything in it. They always have backpacks.

SPEAKER_02

Last night, I'm building on this. This is not a segue. This is not a tangent, that's what I'm trying to say. Uh, I was having a hard time sleeping, so I watched a 20-minute video about salt beef. Some guy dressed as like a revolutionary war soldier, and he's like, the history of salt beef. It's like, well, fantastic. Because Kahel be writing about that. Do you know what it is? The history of salt beef? No. Salt beef. Well, it's salted beef. Yeah, they preserve it in like a jerk. Big ol' mound of salt, roll your beef in it. It sucks all the water out and forms like a hard, somewhat pussy crust. Um, throw it in a barrel, throw it in a barrel. Um, and to to cook it, you first like the easiest way to cook it is just to boil it. That's so gross to just boil your salt beef. Boiling salty jerky that's gray. Oh, and they eat it. And I think people have complained in this series about eating salt beef, which I do understand. Yeah. But like the hardest thing is like, okay, it's salted, but how do you fucking get it ready to eat? Because you can't just chew through a rind of salt. So I said that sailors often would uh they would stick a hook through it and trail it behind the boat to knock all the salt off, but that creates issues. Um a fish might eat it, so you had to keep a very close eye on it to make sure that your salt beef didn't get nabbed by a barracuda or something. Wow. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_01

Your insomnia is just really helpful. I also learned uh about 40 new things about cacti last night when you sent me a another 20-minute video about invasive cacti species.

SPEAKER_02

Uh listeners, if anyone wants a link to a really good video about invasive cacti, uh let me know. I'll send it to you. That's very helpful. Yeah. Did we try to napalm bomb napalm bomb cacti at some point? You're goddamn right we did.

SPEAKER_01

Dude, Australia's pretty bad about fighting its own flora and fauna. Have you ever read about the emu war?

SPEAKER_02

I was gonna say they had a they had a whole war on rabbits too.

SPEAKER_01

I know. I had to do this for my uh grad school presentation on the war on rats in Alberta.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

There's a wonderful musical about the uh Alberta rat infestation. Um if you watch uh Joe Perra. So be sure to check that out.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, anyway, that was a good episode. Okay, so we covered the stew. I don't think we covered the stew thing fully. Um who do you want to start with? You know, I'm gonna throw it out.

SPEAKER_00

I kind of want to start with Calinvar.

SPEAKER_02

A big big presence in this section. My goodness. I wonder if it was Carn Page's like who got the most.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's him.

SPEAKER_02

Like if I'm just looking at my notes. I mean him and Kalen, I think, at top building. Like because Dan's chapter is super short, wrist barely in it. Um Yeah, let's start with Calinvar.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, we say goodbye to older brother instantly in in the beginning of this book.

SPEAKER_02

That's really tough.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um You know what I think this probably isn't what we should talk about first. I hadn't pieced it together that his older brother, Haim? Haim Shout out I saw Alana Haim at a clothing store. Shout out to Dodgers.

SPEAKER_01

Haim sisters.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they're from LA. What the what are they fucking doing?

SPEAKER_01

Didn't didn't know about that one.

SPEAKER_02

I think at some point, like if an artist achieves a certain level of fame and popularity, th they're no longer capable of making good art. Yeah, I think I think at some point like you've lost it. You're no longer your feet are not on the ground anymore.

SPEAKER_01

I think there's something we said about not being able to relate to what brought you there. I need to struggle, man. More starving artists. Yeah. Um I I think Nepo babies kind of exclude your argument there.

SPEAKER_02

Name one Nepo artist who I like besides the strokes and geese. Keep going. QE QE the U.S. Yeah, okay. It's all good. Um oh, but yeah, so I had forgotten that his or I just hadn't pieced it together. His brother went back to the Glade in a previous book before we knew it was his brother. I agree, I think. It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01

You know, because we we said we were maybe gonna go back and reread some of the early like I still want to reread the prologue of book one now that I him as Arden. Um but yeah, he came back and fought with um chest Big Thump and the rest of the crew. Got me there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's really okay, that's good. Um yeah, I wonder if it's just like painfully obvious when you go back that he's having like all these memories and connections to these people and places.

SPEAKER_01

I actually don't think it is. I think it's pretty subtle, like just from memory. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I would imagine like knowing Kahel, they're probably a few clues. Like if you're very, very tapped in um. Yeah, that's very interesting. Um okay, but Calinvar, yeah. Uh the brother, the brother connection. My one note on the brother connection is like our Calinvar section kind of ends here with them saying, like, well, we're gonna go find Calen. Like, well, you we're with him. Not so many pages ago.

SPEAKER_01

I think if Calinvar had a moment in his grief to think a little bit more clearly, why not just take Caitlin through the rift? Take him home with you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It does seem like the whole world is revolving around the Draulade. Maybe not the time to rift the fuck away. Yeah. To be fair, there's a whole Lorien army there. So Yeah, I guess I guess things were going bad. Um, I don't know. It is what it is. Yeah, it is. Um but yeah, very sad send-off for uh for Gramps.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it feels I feel bad for Kaylin here.

SPEAKER_02

Um that sucks. That really sucks. It really sucks. I I'm actually surprised we haven't gotten more like psychological check-ins with Kaelin about seeing his brother and then having him go away.

SPEAKER_01

I know he has like more immediate concerns, but uh I was actually thinking that it becomes a pretty big theme for him in the next three times we see him. He's pretty pissed. Well, he he is pissed.

SPEAKER_02

I but I guess like I guess I'm I'm having recency bias because he met a wacky druid and it was like he's got some other stuff going on at this point. I know.

SPEAKER_01

I know he really yeah, that was an instant distraction. But yeah. Yeah, our boy. Our boy Calinvar is now the the grand wizard and uh takes him back through the old the old rift.

SPEAKER_02

Call from the bullpen.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Uh question. How concerned are you about the voices he's hearing? Super concerned.

SPEAKER_01

That's this.

SPEAKER_02

Totally open to this just being their god, Acheron.

SPEAKER_01

There's no fucking way it's Acheron. I know, it feels weird. There's just no shot, like just whispering sweet nothings right when his rage hits its its high point, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I man, I wonder if we went back and read every Calendar chapter. Did he like pick something up or get cut by something?

SPEAKER_01

Well he picks something.

SPEAKER_02

I'm thinking of like a ruin spike type thing.

SPEAKER_01

Like I mean, I was thinking he becomes the grandma. Like he becomes he gets the new sigil armor and stuff. He does, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's like obviously the direct thing, but I wonder if that's I wonder if there's something else that's giving him a connection to F Y'all tier instead.

SPEAKER_01

You could think about it like they've been pretty passive. Okay, actually, if we want to explain why they were such like pussies in the fall and other fights in the past, perhaps it's because Verathon was wearing the armor and talking to the evil god, and the evil god was like, this is the time to to you know retreat. This is the time not to intervene. You know what I need you guys to do? Not really be involved in anything.

SPEAKER_02

Just stay away. I'm throwing that little theory out there. That would be funny because we've joked about how ineffective they are as a force, and it would be funny if they were just like completely manipulated to be ineffective. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Liz And now he's taking a new tack. He's gonna like make, you know, he's gonna make Calinvar be so furious with our field reporters are gonna be keeping a close eye on this situation.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And we'll keep you updated.

SPEAKER_01

What was it called in um Stormlight Archive? Dalinar's thing. Pee Pee time.

SPEAKER_02

What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01

The way he like you see the red mist of the battlefield. The thrill? The thrill. That's that's what I'm talking about. Calm park got the thrill for a little bit.

SPEAKER_02

That's what you get when you watch the Lego movie.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Everything is awesome as my thrill. Fun fact I learned in this section sigils. Oh, why I'm not even gonna say this out loud. This is the dumbest thing I've ever said in my life. No.

SPEAKER_02

No, it's just hey, go for it.

SPEAKER_01

Sigils are recyclable.

SPEAKER_02

That's really nice. Like, obviously, like it's nice to see a force have kind of an eco bent.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, I do think it's cool that they have their little eat alcoves and they just magically pop in when the knight dies. I think that's probably what you were pointing at. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But then I realize obviously when someone dies, I get a new one. There's so much sigil waste in the world, you know?

SPEAKER_02

The landfill is filled with the d sigils of dead knights of Acheron. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's cool. Um I'm not loving the the pivot for Calin Barr. I really liked him before, and uh I I I question his ability to lead now.

SPEAKER_01

I do. I mean, I was I was to be clear, I was on his side when he screamed, I will make their gods shake. That was cool. A little sexual, but uh little Savannah Banana core, but that's okay. I was less cool with it when he was destroying the slick oily taint without prejudice. Oh, I'm getting after that taint. Dude, that that was a horrible description. There's like a two paragraphs where he just keeps calling it the slick oily taint. Just like give me stop.

SPEAKER_02

Using the word taint and calling it oily is it's not the one I would have picked.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, the oily taint on the incarnadine snow. Just what I wanted to read in this section. I'm gonna pound that taint.

SPEAKER_02

I yeah, yeah, man. Every time I see the word incarnid, it's just like uh it's like a splinter in my eye.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, Calavar's off his rocker. He's swinging his sword at anybody who who breathes in front of him, including little old ladies in the middle of the room.

SPEAKER_02

But when the children.

SPEAKER_01

Um He can also read people's emotions with his new Spidey sense, which is that's kind of feels invasive.

SPEAKER_02

Very much so. And he acknowledges like, I don't know, I don't really like this. It's also a trip that he's been the the old grandmaster, he's known him for about 800 years, the guy never thought to mention.

SPEAKER_01

And also imagine the guy who's known you 800 years knows everything you're thinking like for that whole time.

SPEAKER_02

You've known every time I was bricked up for the past 800 years. Yeah. Yep. And I get bricked up too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But yeah. Eventually Calavar comes back to his senses thanks to his friends, and they have a uh naked pool party therapy intervention.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, this is just the nights being the nights, man. This is why I want to do that. That's why I love them so much. I love the knights, man. The knights are goofy. It is funny seeing them like they have these big hurrahs when people are elevated to new positions. I was like, well, there are six of you. You know, it's it's not like you beat out all comers. Like you're oh man. I graduated at the top of my class of me only. It's really like shaking your own hands. Gave myself a western grip handy. Yo. Uh yeah. That's pretty much our boys. Anything else to say about them?

SPEAKER_01

No, they're gonna go find Kaylin, even though they already found him and left him. Uh that's that's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's like leaving your phone on Uber. Okay. Um You picked up where you wanna go? You wanna go, buddy? Should we stick with the thousand-year-old fellas? Are you talking druids? You know what? Let's just this is not democratic. I pick a character, you pick a character. Perfect. Okay. Let's cover Ella. Okay. Ella. Um oh, Cut for Time, Ella. No, El Tuwarma, Depression Island, baby. Ah, Drachlidir, Depression Island. Dracaldrier? I don't know. I wrote it down wrong. We need our astrophagyogy for this series. No, it's Dicka Dicka is what it's like.

SPEAKER_01

Dick Adicka is definitely up there.

SPEAKER_02

Uh yeah. So L to R recruitment mission for a depressed reclusive uh person who carried out the fall.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, one of the old dragon bound who has a little regretti spaghetti in her stomach and uh as old holed up a dragon temple at Mount Umar as as one does.

SPEAKER_00

It's been a long time. To mope. Love yourself, man. Forgive yourself. Everyone makes mistakes. Go set them right.

SPEAKER_01

Stop moping. I do. Or just get over it. I do with you, but El Twir isn't over it. Kind of is. Did you think El Twar was gonna snap again in the scene like he did in the fall? It was like when he gets argued and he doesn't have a good comeback, he just kills the other person.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, I this this was not my favorite part of this section. I will I will I will out myself as a perhaps not an enjoyer of this chapter.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. I think we've we've gone over this before that El Tor does come across as a bit of a dummy. Right. Where he's like, I'm not so sure if this was a good idea. Were our reasons kind of dumb for killing all our friends? And my goodness, does he have every opportunity to at least like provide some response, provide a counter counterpoint, even if you don't believe it. Just something. But he has nothing to say to this woman. Like she's just like berating him and she's right. And I just wanted him to like offer a justification, you know? And it just didn't I just wanted them to flesh this out a little bit more and be like, there were reasons for doing what we did, and maybe I don't believe in them now, but I'm I'm still just like at a base level not understanding what would drive someone like El Tawar to do that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and he he doesn't present a good logic model, he doesn't really feel I don't know, too sure about himself at any points. It it reminds me, I I would put this in a character, a parallel character development to me as uh Ivan or Ivan or whatever.

SPEAKER_02

Sure.

SPEAKER_01

Where it's like, I'm still not really sure what this dude's motivations are. Like, yeah. And we're we're now like pretty much past the point of no return for it. Like we're gonna maybe get some backstory exposition way down the line, but is it gonna feel enough? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And it's not even I don't even need the reasons to be that good. Uh like just the lies he tells himself would be sufficient. Because that's I think that's what he's been getting by on for a long time. Yeah. Um, but I want to know what those are. And he has it in him, right? Like he does make some interesting points about like maybe you don't fuck with Fane, but like we no one fucks with the Uraq, so like you should get involved at least in this conflict. So that was interesting. Um the other thing, and I don't know if this I don't know if this bugged you at all, but I did feel like the writing slipped a little bit in this section. Like it was one of those conversations that felt like it was largely for the benefit of the reader. Like a lot of what she was saying to him was like very contrived. And it was like, you need to know this stuff, and you need to know like the mix of opinions between these people. It didn't feel very naturalistic. It like doesn't always need to be Malzan fly on the wall where no one even names the people they're talking about. But like um it it it started to feel a little artificial to me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I I would agree with that. I think it's it's inconsistent with how the rest of this section felt, which is mostly that more of that fly on the wall, like besides the druid, obviously, which we'll get to. But um yeah, even when he walks into the temple and it's like naming the seven N Kurana gods, and I don't know, the whole thing felt like a little Yeah, it hits you over the head a little bit too much.

SPEAKER_02

And it probably stood out because I don't think that's actually like a fault of his in most of the many, many pages we've read of his. Like it just in this chapter, I think it there were just a couple things that didn't quite land. But as far as like the overall idea, I love the recluse Dragon Rider. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And she spits bars. She spits some bars. I actually really liked her impactful defense.

SPEAKER_02

And the whole like we need to deal with this immediate threat, and then we can think about what to do with Fane later, I think is really interesting. So um yeah, I like what the scene represented. It was like just at times the delivery, I don't think, was up to par with the rest of what Nkaho was doing.

SPEAKER_01

So it's still fun. And what we get out of this is confirmation that there are definitely other unhatched eggs for dragons out there. Absolutely. Which is exciting. We hadn't really we hadn't really confirmed that.

SPEAKER_02

I think we'd both suspected it, but I mean it's hard to imagine this series going any other way. Like the one one new dragon and that's it.

SPEAKER_01

Um more so it feels like there are unhatched dragons, they just have not found the right new dragon-bound spark users. That's the real thing. So who's first on your list? Uh at this point, because he doesn't have a secret power, Dan.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that would be the obvious one. Dane, because he can use the spark. Dane also said he wanted to be a wyvern writer and can't because the animals are sexist. Right. So that could be a thing. I was also wondering about a character who I think has lost his way a little bit. Eric. Talk about someone who doesn't really have something to do right now. That's that's pretty true.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, what's he up to? I'm not gonna lie to you. He has so little to do that I forgot who he was and had to look his name up. I'm like, oh shit, that's Dalin's brother. That's like a guy who threw axes in the bar. He seemed to be the more important brother for the first book. Um, Dalin. Dalin's taking over. More Eric. He's the cool brother.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

I think yeah, you're yeah, it's exactly what I was gonna say. Farda. Veto. No, I would never veto farta.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you take that back, you whore.

SPEAKER_02

Do you ever think about your age gap girlfriend mid-battle? I do. She's only 600 years younger than me. We gotta listen. I support Ace and I think he's a good guy. I'm just saying the wife he had Eric and Dallin with was several hundred years younger than him.

SPEAKER_01

I was there's something wrong in this uh in the social norms of this universe here.

SPEAKER_02

It is what it is. Um yeah, yeah. Farda is his uh he's part of the rank and file. Kind of sucks.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. He just went to battle. The coin flips didn't do him any good. Um, but he is leading a group of battle mages into lightning storms and fighting. Let me tell you what's sick as hell.

SPEAKER_02

Group magic. Group magic is living up to the hype right now. Yeah, that was just awesome. I know the the like foreshadowing with wrist, seeing it like two chapters before was maybe a bit much, but at the same time, when it's this cool, I don't really care.

SPEAKER_01

I don't either. Um, and also just it's more of you know, farda being the kind of badass cool guy he is. He's like, I'm gonna kill myself before I die to this fade. Like die. I'm going to Valhalla.

SPEAKER_02

I'm pretty fine dying. Like that that is like a great tool in battle. I can't feel pain, and I don't even know if I want to be here anymore.

SPEAKER_01

I'm glad they acknowledge the not feeling pain issues, what though, when like someone slices your leg and it's like, well, I I don't have any muscles anymore.

SPEAKER_02

It is funny that he can still get sore, though. He can still feel like old man pain, but he can't. I feel like if I got my eye gouged out, it wouldn't hurt.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he still loses the knee pop challenge with with Sam Golf. But uh Yeah, yeah, he yeah, those knees are popping for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Um yeah, and things like they start going good until he realized he's miscounted by like 5,000. We've been censored. Um but lo and behold, dragon riders show up. So four. We've we meet four new dragon bound here. Yeah, pretty cool. We're we're like halfway through the big group. I was feeling like I kind of need to start remembering their names, is what I was feeling in this chapter.

SPEAKER_01

Well, between El Twar and Tvar and these four, we're now it's two-thirds of our dragons.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Man.

SPEAKER_01

And they did they have said the names, I'm sure I I've written them down somewhere, but of uh of I think the other three that they can't find.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I mean, this has got to be kibble for the uh the people who dragons just scratch a part of their brain. Yeah, like, oh, that's the one with the purple scales and the wide head or whatever, you know. Whatever people who like dragons do.

SPEAKER_01

True.

SPEAKER_00

I didn't like that there's an elf as one of the dragon bound. It made me sad. Question. Is El Tawar an elf? I don't actually know. Why do I think he's an elf? He could be. He's an angry elf. He's an angry elf.

SPEAKER_02

Listeners, we're gonna look this up post app. If he's not an elf, I don't know. Send us a one-star review. My head can and he's an elf. Fight me.

SPEAKER_01

Um anything else about Farda other than he's not over Ella at all. No, and he is totally not gonna just remain with the army. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um more to come, but okay. Anyways, talk about a character who I am very excited to every time it's a Farda chapter, I'm in. He's the best. He might be the number one in my power rankings right now. Oh. He's up there. It's like uh although I feel like it's easier for him because he doesn't get as many chapters, you know? It's like a little treat. What is a treat? I get a Florida chapter. Is that it? And you want me to pick? Yeah. I like this draft. Yeah, this is fun. Uh, let's do it's gonna be a quick one. Let's do Dan. Let's get Dan out of here.

SPEAKER_01

Dan. What a homie. Dan and the squad in the dark wood. Tree monsters. This is what I was bitching about in book one-ish, two, maybe, when I'm like, you can't talk up this whole wood, and then they never get attacked by the fable creatures.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then a surprisingly comic golden stag shows up. Now these guys were this uh these guys were cool. They're like slender man brute motherfuckers, like yeah, and the the earth heals them. That's pretty good. Yeah, that was they were creepy. Weak to fire damage, which tracks. Indeed.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It certainly does.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that was good. I don't know if that goes anywhere, but it was a fun little uh little sprankle of fighting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And then once they escape through the magic barrier of the statues, which I just really can't be bothered to look into more. Um, we find out that Ryan Cahill really wants to create his own language. That's what I took away from this. Yeah. We're in Avarel meeting the Svidarcia to go through the ephori.

SPEAKER_02

And I don't know. And there's a lot of characters who just say shit in Elvish, and then in italics it will say what they said.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm fairly certain he is actually in some of his interviews talked about like he's actually working to create a full language of whatever this is. Um good for him.

SPEAKER_02

Talk about something I would never do in my own creative endeavors.

SPEAKER_01

It's tough. I can see how it would scratch the itch, but I've just never been much of a linguist.

SPEAKER_02

That's a type of autism. Do you know what a foamer is?

SPEAKER_01

A foamer?

SPEAKER_02

I don't. It's it's the name for autistic people who love trains. It's a foam. They don't have to be autistic, but people who really love trains are called foamers. Wow. There you go. There's a short doc online called Foamers. Yeah, that's right after salt beef in cactus. Well, okay. What's the name of this Elven place? Because in my summary, I confidently wrote Arundel, and I have no idea if that's right. I'm sorry, guys. I don't know why I didn't even think to double check. I just wrote Arendelle. I mean, it's close. Unless I know it's a big glamour. Yeah. Which uh I don't know. He creates some rules around glamours. The bit if they're if they're big, they're porous. If they're small, they can have some mass. Yeah. Density, if you will.

SPEAKER_01

As a big old city you can't see from above as a dragon. Very important.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. They could probably smell it. You would think with all that salt beef. Well that salt beef. And the whole sequence where Kaelin's like smelling the entire forest. I think they could probably tell if there's a city of elves.

SPEAKER_01

I did like that. I did like that. But the city, the city itself seems dope. I like the descriptions of it.

SPEAKER_02

Um still kind of walls and towers, but not not it's not a what's the what's the place we call Italy?

SPEAKER_01

Barona. Barona with its ain't Barona. This ain't Barona. Perpetually increasing towered tower right. Yeah, Russian nesting towers. Um add here. I mean, you get a couple cute moments. There's a good like Fair and Asen friendship scene, friend BFF goals. You get a nice update on the elves they saved in the exile. Yes. That they're doing well, which made me really happy. Um that's really yeah, that is nice. And we meet the distributed monarchy of the Council of Elves, which made me upset.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, okay. I see what you mean. Maybe that. Do fantasy writers just like kings because it's like a convenient narrative device? Like, this guy's the government. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but then there's six of them. And then there's, you know.

SPEAKER_02

I'm saying that having a unitary monarchy is for blot purposes very convenient. Elected through a farcical aquatic ceremony. Maidens in pawns, there's no way. Yeah. I I did finally um watch uh Monty Python the whole time. Thank God. Timeless, timeless human. That's so good. Um that is that when people say Terry Pratchett never got like a proper adaptation, just go watch Monty Python. Yeah, it feels great. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, I don't know. I think I'm intrigued by this, but I feel like uh we're gonna have better conversations in future episodes about the elves.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it seems like we're just passing through. They're taking them through a secret tunnel to catch up with Kalen. That's the goal.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Aren't they going somewhere interesting on the way though?

SPEAKER_00

Are they going to see Wrist?

SPEAKER_02

Well, they think Kalen's going to see Wrist. I didn't know if they were going straight there. I actually can't remember where they're supposed to go. I thought there was something. I thought there was something there. Whatever. Yeah. More to go.

SPEAKER_01

Forgive us. This book is thick.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Uh I think it's you now.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

We're going to Dickadicka.

SPEAKER_02

No. Yeah. Well, it's it's either Dickadicka or Ella, so.

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh. Well, so in Dickadicka And Dickadicka, after Damon's betrayal of everything holy. Self-betrayal. Stupid ass self-assassination.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I thought killing myself would be better.

SPEAKER_01

We get like one page of like PTSD Dalin running the city, which I really loved, where he's just like freaky. He's like, I see blood everywhere. Also, we need to fix these towers.

SPEAKER_02

Like that is that is bizarre that this teenager's like, well, I guess you're the most competent person here. You're a lord, and we're taking orders from you. And that instantly gets taken away because I can't say Kahill didn't set this up. What, the the whole daemon arc? Dalin taking a fall because of his horrendous temper. Yeah. And he's the guy who's just smashed a Voz in book one because Kalen was being treated too nice.

SPEAKER_01

So And I still I don't I'm not fully bought in he's gonna go there, but this is just another rung on the ladder to villain arc for Dalin. See, I'm not feeling that. I'm not either, but it it's he has a noble heart. I think he does, but he could be.

SPEAKER_02

He just needs it to he's young, he needs to grow. And Belina. Belina really gassed him up during their whole negotiation with the with the uh dwarven queen at the end.

SPEAKER_01

Question.

SPEAKER_00

Do you feel how do you feel that Cahill just replaced Dane with Dalin? I don't know. Like we read The Exile.

SPEAKER_01

No, it's just like we read The Exile. There's like a buddy cop, you know, entire dynamic throughout that whole thing. And then they just instantly replicate it with a new character.

SPEAKER_02

Like Belina always needs a male foil, and so she can make jokes about tits.

SPEAKER_01

Right. It felt for me, it was like, oh, he just he couldn't figure out how Dan could also be with Belina in the underground at this point.

SPEAKER_02

So it's like, all right, Dalin, you're and Belina alone is is a frightening thing. We can't we can't be exposed to her inner monologue at any point. No, not at all. I wonder if we'll ever get a like proper Belina POV. What's going on in her little head?

SPEAKER_01

We've I think we will, because I mean we got we got Garamon in this, you know? Like we we've gotten Ooh, I can't wait to talk about Garamon. I know that's gonna be next, I think. But um Yeah, you know, this uh anyway, you know, he gets framed by Damon, man v dwarf kicks off.

SPEAKER_02

Classic Um Damon does this whole marching through the heart thing, which is ill-advised. Um I'm not gonna lie to you, I don't know what the heart is. The center of the city. I'm just not understanding in space where everything is between Beldoir and the Dwarven Freehold. I I know they're close to each other. I would like a diagram. I want, yeah, I want like one when you just open a page with oh, second map, page 300. Yes, I would love a map of what's going on in the Bel Dewar and Dwarven freehold area.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Somebody should do a book report on that. I remember in fifth grade, I did do a book report on the Westing game, and I had to make a pop-up interactive map.

SPEAKER_02

Do you know any fifth graders? So yeah, get on wagons. Yeah. Yeah. If we had any parents listening and your kid has to do something like this, I have a suggestion.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, this is a great inspiration.

SPEAKER_02

But uh yeah, I guess conveniently for for Dollin, this does kind of let him get away from his uh very short arrest and impending imprisonment. So that's good. Yep. And then we have bolt throwers are pretty scary.

SPEAKER_01

Bolt throwers are the bolt throwers are nuts. And these are like the smaller ones.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Those would have been really helpful in book one. Fucking either.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

No, it was book two started book.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, yeah. Immediately. Yeah. Um Yeah, and then we get a little uh um parlay between the dwarf queen and Stalin.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yeah. They do some like process of elimination detective work and figure out who is least likely to have participated in the self-owning.

SPEAKER_01

However, the way they get it is really funny. I have to call it out, which is Belina just lying in a letter. That was, yeah, that was good. How you can do a strongly worded letter. Um yeah, and I imagine part two, more dick-a-dick-a-fighting. So look forward to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we're not going anywhere. No, we're gonna dick a dick until the bitter end. Um, and with that, I'm next. It's wrist, baby. And by extension, Garamon. Yeah, let's do a wrist Garamond chat. Let's do a double feature. I love that. Psyched. I I honestly don't have that much to say about wrist. I have like more to say about Garamond. Wrist, I think I'm I'm certain is gonna have some fun chapters in the next section. But yeah, for now, he's boys just kind of at school and things are happening above his head.

SPEAKER_01

I actually enjoyed this wrist chapter more for what he was like viewing as a spectator. I thought the the world around him was more interesting. Like he runs with a full backpack, which is an incredible visual. Double strapper. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Full of books. Um he's kind of a I I enjoyed the sparring actually. And he's got his own kind of vibe where he's like maybe not the best swordsman, but is like very clever with how he uses magic in his fighting. Uh the power of tripping. Power of tripping. Don't underestimate it.

SPEAKER_01

Never. Some knee kicking and some tripping.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that man, this is like such a bookslash TV thing. He could he learns the tripping technique from a book, and Garamond is like, oh yes, from the Art of Tripping, chapter four, page 40, second line.

SPEAKER_01

It's not the art of tripping, it's the art of war by Suman Zuvaron.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I missed this. Can you fill the reader in?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so in this section, I don't want to find this again. Sorry, I'm stuck on destroy the taints without prejudice here. It just don't make me giggle. So anyway. Um so this is actually a little bit later when Sister Anila, who is a true believer, uh, and has one arm. What's her name? Sister Anila.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, you mean Anila Rexplitter? Yeah. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01

We we didn't even talk about the drunk, the trunk general.

SPEAKER_02

Let me tell you this girl's life story. Sit down. You're no fun.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But anyway, she is leading it. She's leading Ristanira, his old crush, off the practice grounds and recommending books, and specifically recommends The Art of War by Sumara Tuzan. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And then I. Okay. I'm wondering if this is a spoiler.

SPEAKER_02

I'm going to say it's not. Not very okay. In the next 20 seconds, mild world-building spoiler for the Wheel of Time. Three, two, one. The Wheel of Time is set on Earth, like kind of in a far future. And there are little things that happen, like they find a Mercedes-Benz hood ornament and their references to like the Cold War and shit. Um now I'm kind of wondering if we're we're dealing with something similar here. If like the art of war survived, but the name got lost to time or changed or whatever. And we know humans came to Epherius at some point, right? Yeah. Where'd they come from? Did they come from uh good old Mother Earth? Probably not. But um I wonder if there's some funk like that going on.

SPEAKER_01

Who's to say they didn't come from the lost city of New York, like the ice schooner?

SPEAKER_02

Ice schooner? After we killed all the land whales, we had to flee.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man. But yeah, that's a good one. We'll we'll look out for more Easter eggs like that to see if there's there's any pattern. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And we'll have more more god. I guess whatever. We're gonna have more god talk in the Kalen section. I want to get into that stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. My last wrist scene is go goad on to crate.

SPEAKER_02

Goad on to crate. Um, which is the note Travis took when he saw uh, frankly, Goad on to Crate. They're heading out to this like a parade march thing of the military so they can do the dragon's maw. And wrist becomes really fixated by this large black goat that's standing on top of a bunch of crates. Uh there's like a funny exchange with him and his GF. Um like, stop talking about the fucking goat. It's not important. Um, my note said deaf a furry. That's my Kindle notes on this section. Um, so I'm assuming it's one of the shapeshifters, but there's no way he just pointed to this goad on to crate for no reason.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I think a shapeshifter is actually a decent call because that's who might be feeding information to uh ASAN and whoever else that risks. Yeah, that's like their purpose, right?

SPEAKER_02

They're just they're spies. Um so goadon to crate. Again, field reporters will be monitoring the situation. Indeed.

SPEAKER_01

Um anything else to say before we get into Garamond lore? Nah, we'll get more wrist stuff. I mean, Magnus, the new mentor, is the man, but you know, that's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I guess this is more wrist than Garamond, though it comes from Garamond's POV. Um Rist uh might be in line for Ascension, which sounds good, is bad. It's very bad. Yeah. Uh don't love that. He's no good. There's no way this boy becomes a fade, right? Dude, that would be kind of hype. Like bold, it'd be a bold move, but uh I feel like that's like in Dungeon Crawler Carl where they tell you, like, you could become a hideous monster, but no one will watch you. I think if Frist becomes like a hideous freak, I will have a hard time empathizing with him. Viewer numbers are down. Down, yeah. Not going on a debt show like that. Um okay, Garamon. One. Uh he used to be uh an arbiter. Number one arbiter. Wrote I don't know, McCarthyism in Etheria. Is that basically what he did?

SPEAKER_01

Basically, he rooted out the traitors.

SPEAKER_02

Get out, get the commies out.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, a lot of torture, you imagine. Sounds like he did bad stuff. He determined their loyalty, which is a catchphrase if I've ever heard one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

See, I feel like he is bringing in the complexity I wanted from Eltowar.

SPEAKER_01

I actually agree. I liked I liked Geraman a whole lot more. Um Yeah. I instantly just felt like he was a cool guy. I mean, I didn't like him when he was beating up wrist in the classroom, but um BFF with Fayein, original arbiter.

SPEAKER_00

This guy's cool.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I feel like this is a way more it's way more 50 on the will he won't he like join the rebellion thing than El Towar feels like an inevitability. Or I don't know. Or he just dies feeling like he dies in shape. Yeah, something like that. Um also El Why do I say El Towar? Garamon in possession of an object that could only have come from Asen, a letter. Yes. Who else have you seen sending letters in this series? No one. Starhawks. Yeah, he's a Starhawk, dude. One of those giant horses.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So it's gotta be, right? It has to. I mean, I would think so. They know each other, they have to know each other.

SPEAKER_02

So it is frankly misleading if it's from anyone else.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's true. Nobody else is.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, like from Kyle's perspective, if you give me like a sealed letter, you know everyone is gonna assume it's from Ace and right, yeah. Yeah. So that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Also, he's a papa. He is a papa.

SPEAKER_02

And my prediction Empire did something to his kid, and that's gonna be the little wrench. That's gonna be what turns him.

SPEAKER_01

This set all the dead son theory alarm bells off in my head.

SPEAKER_02

I think he I okay, I said No, it's dead son theory. That's sibl dead sibling theory is very different. I think his kid is dead, but he's gonna be mad about it, and that's what's gonna make him join the rebellion. I think his saying you did kill my kid.

SPEAKER_01

I think his kid is one of the knights.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like that trick has been done before. You don't know. His trick, his kid's calendar.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I the kid will be important. How about that? I think we can agree on that.

SPEAKER_01

I think we can. Malin.

SPEAKER_02

Malin was the kid's name. Yeah, I did go back to the previous books and search the name to see if he had not been mentioned. No dice, yeah. New development here. So Garamon added to my list of tasty treat short POVs that we get in this book.

SPEAKER_01

True. But also, just a fun note, he's just hanging out with Fane, and Fane is sitting around in a t-shirt, which I thought was funny. Just like the evil god man man didn't have a bigger one.

SPEAKER_00

At the majestic desk.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But he's reading the book from the scholar in exile from the dungeons. I don't know if you caught that. No. So they're they were reading the results of all the experiments. They had rescued some of the book after Faron had uh destroyed it. And so that was interesting. And then also they do a little confirmation that they are indeed using wrist for future Kalen leverage, which is important.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that I mean that's makes sense. Um there's also like a funny we get an excerpt of a book Wrist is reading. And did you note how wacky the tone was? Oh for a book that was supposed to be somewhat academic, he's like, Well, and I found myself amongst my travels, and lo, I beheld a druid.

SPEAKER_01

It was it like he sat in the road, but he wasn't a vagrant.

SPEAKER_02

He was neither a mouse nor a rat. Um yeah, I don't know. I like I don't even know if that's inappropriate, but it's just like this I thought this was a somewhat academic study of the druids, and this guy's weaving in a lot of personal anecdotes. Why not, man? Gulliver's Travels.

SPEAKER_01

Pretty sick. Um anything else there? No, but I'm I'm happy we got a little Fein exposure. I'm always I'm always happy to get a little bit of that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's sort of interesting. He's got like a veterinari thing going. He likes the, you know, he's got the desk, he dresses very simply, whatever. He's a man of the people, ultimately. Indeed. Yeah. And Fein's also stressing a bit about the uh his god controlling the Uracs who are trying to kill everyone. Yeah. I don't think he's happy with that state of affairs.

SPEAKER_01

So Yeah, there I really want to get into there's okay, there's a taking a little aside here, there's a bunch of stuff I want to get into more, like the savior idea, the truth about like his gods. Also doom itself. Like the start of the doom, the doom.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. I'm very curious about that. Wait, can I meant can I can I throw a quick note about the Bloodvar? The Bloodvar, yes. I think that translates roughly to the Blood War. Nice. If I had to guess. Um I would imagine. Yeah, that was between the Jotnar and the Elves back in the day. Pre-human. Pre-human. Also, did they confirm that what's Ephialtier is making Urax?

SPEAKER_01

They didn't uh it to my knowledge, they didn't confirm where the Urax are coming from.

SPEAKER_02

I thought they like they need Efial tier. They are his creatures, like no F altier and no Urax.

SPEAKER_01

And the Fanes are kind of wherever they want to be.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Sorry, the fades. Fades, yeah. No, they're not. There's only one Fane, as far as I know. Aaron Powell And then the last piece there is that other continents have attacked Ephere. So there is a larger world beyond these oceans of the map. And um curious about that.

SPEAKER_02

You think we're gonna go there?

SPEAKER_00

Well, book five, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Is that is that like a that kind of is like a fantasy thing at this point.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Lord of the Rings, like famously I feel like Shinovar is kind of like that in Stormlight and in Wheel of Time, and there's the whatever the fuck the place is that's way east.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean at some point you mouse scroll out and you're like, ooh, big world.

SPEAKER_02

Big stuff. Malazan, just ping pong between continents every book.

SPEAKER_01

Through the Warrens. Yes. Um no, I think this takes us to our final character.

SPEAKER_02

Final two characters.

SPEAKER_01

Nope.

SPEAKER_02

We cut for time. Sorry. Okay. Okay, so we're we're recording time, we're at 101.08. We're gonna be done with Ella by 104.

SPEAKER_01

Oh. Uh Tanner's alive. Tanner tells her what's up. Thank God. Ella does a little sparring, gets a little world building for herself, and uh continues to figure out how her dog talks to her.

SPEAKER_02

I got a pet theory here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_02

Not about the not that kind of pet theory.

SPEAKER_00

Um does Tanner does he have a little crush on Ella? No.

SPEAKER_02

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure. I'm not sure. And I think that a lot of the okay, I know that Ella did kind of get Tanner too.

SPEAKER_01

Tanner has like the undying love with that one woman.

SPEAKER_02

I know that, but I think that's why she was so mean to Ella. Aside from her, you know, Ella did almost get Tanner killed, but Yeah, that's the I think that she's jealous. I think she's like, Tanner's seeing this hot, hot young thing.

SPEAKER_01

And she didn't want her around anymore. I think Tanner's nephew just died, and he's putting a little bit of familiar, familial affection towards, you know, his ne niece-in-law.

SPEAKER_02

You are so naive. You know how men work.

SPEAKER_01

I I choose to believe Tanner is good.

SPEAKER_02

I think men are dogs, and I think Tanner is the biggest dog in the pound. Well, she's got the biggest dog, and she's gonna sick him on him. That's true. Um, and they here's my question. If she's a druid and she can to have thought talk thought talks with her dog, uh isn't isn't doesn't mean Caitlin's a bit of a druid too.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know if it's transitive through I don't know. Because she should be able to talk to more animals. Oh. You know what my prediction of her is they there's a throwaway line somewhere about uh druids with the animal ability that could control up to 50 wyvernes at once. That that's what I think Ella's feature is. Oh, that as soon as you said that, I'm like, that seems so obvious. Right. Like she will practice her power, somehow meet up with Dane romance Dane, kill Mira. Is that on Calchi? Oh, do you know the bit I was gonna do tonight was uh Calci bets on fantasy things. Are there any out there? I was gonna do like Rothfuss finishes another publication date for Stor Doors of Stone.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the overunder is never. Yeah. Um Did you there's a Reddit called Is Book Three out yet? Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah, it's so funny. It's it's pretty funny. Nope, he's just stealing money from nonprofits. Uh just don't sound the alarms, guys. Um 104 on the dot. Kaelin time. Mostly poofs and goofs. Um Kaylin Time. Okay. Well, they they do go back to the cozy daisy, which I was happy about.

SPEAKER_01

Can't leave that behind. God, I love the cozy daisy. I love that everyone's just getting drunk at the end of the world, man. So real.

SPEAKER_02

Why not? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um Do we have much to say about King's Pass? Other than he has another exchange with that battle mage who uncarped. I don't know if it counts as being pretty straight up with him.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, what a homie. You know, okay, this is actually a point that I meant to make earlier. Early in this book, we get a lot of humanization of the Lorien Empire. And this is one of the examples. We also, through Wrist, kind of get to hear about uh whatever her name was, Alina or something. But um, yeah, you get to meet in the prologue, you get the the scene on the wall with just like the average Lorien soldier getting picked off by elves. So it's it's interesting. He's he's throwing in a little bit of the uh empathizing with the Loriens here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I guess sort of related, but like I think Calanbar was talking about this. Like, you know what's really gonna help the rebellion? The DraLade killing a whole bunch of Gurax and helping everybody.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, which I think makes total sense. But like it and you know, I think that extends to the Lorien rank and file. Like the average loyalty maybe run to the Drawlade if they continue to speed General Force for good.

SPEAKER_01

Do you want to believe in do you want to believe in the shadow god from the weird guy in the tower that blows up cities or the nice young man who helped you defeat the Urox?

SPEAKER_02

He's got stew pies in his backpack. Come on, he's giving them to everybody. They're a little wet. It's fine. Yeah. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_01

Then we're off to see the wizard. It's crazy that there's so little Kaelin. I just like 200 page gap here. Uh yeah, we're off to see Roka the Druid.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I guess before that there's some there's some good psychological interrogation of him and his his bro bro.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It was nice to see I think Cahill acknowledge that Kalen's got them on a bit of a wild goose chase here. Kalen knows it's a wild goose chase and he feels weird about it and at least addresses the elephant in the room. It's just like, why are we going to get wrist right now? Um sorry guys. Yeah, and they say we're with you. So good for them. He's got a very loyal crew. Yes. Um and it was cute him quoting uh Tarman's words back to him. I know.

SPEAKER_01

I love a Tarman pep talk, man. They're always they're always really comforting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we all need a Tarman in our life. No. Mine is Billy. No. Mine's Buff Thick Chest. Everything's awesome when you're part of the team. Uh can we talk about the druid? I love him. What a fun. Oh, what a chiller. I don't I don't even know how to I have a theory that's like so loose I can't even verbalize it. There's gotta be something with his insistence that they eat. Interesting. Like I feel like it's gonna be plot relevant. It's like, oh my god, we would have died if we hadn't had that stew. Yeah, like this the stew pie will undoubtedly come back.

SPEAKER_01

Like he saw the future is like these fuckers need to eat. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's either that or it was a device to do the five, the path of five versus the path of four thing. Yeah. Which who do you think was the fifth that they were missing?

SPEAKER_02

Didn't he say it was like he said where the person was from? I thought the person from blank was gonna be with you. Ooh, I didn't catch that. I think there was something like that. But clearly I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, sorry, it was. It was I think they said it was um oh, who's the guy the the Viking dude with the weird mom who helped him last book?

unknown

Fuck.

SPEAKER_01

Corbin?

SPEAKER_02

No. What is that's is that John Gwen? Aleron. Aleron. Wait, Allaron had a friend who had a name like Corbin. Damn.

SPEAKER_01

Uh that was a monstrous swing and a miss. I mean, Corbin is a inspiration of Cahill's, so I'm pretty sure it was Nynaeve Almira.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Um but yeah, I think it was, you're right. I think it was him that they expected. He expected he would be joining, but he's off on his own now.

SPEAKER_02

Wouldn't mind a check-in with Alron, honestly. Although I guess the knights or um wait, who is it that goes to Drafane? That's him in Drafane. He's Drafanian. No, but we get a check-in in Drafane, people go fight there and there's a civil war going on.

SPEAKER_00

I can't remember. It's isn't it the Knights Ackerman? Maybe.

SPEAKER_02

Isn't that where Calanbar almost offs an old lady? Oh, is that is that where they yeeted themselves into? I think they're in Drafane, yeah. Okay. And there's a civil war going on. So monitoring that. Indeed. Oh, that's okay. Good catch. Good catch. Yeah. Okay. Um, okay, we get I mean, we get a lot about the nature of his uh future site, whatever you want to call it. And some people can look forwards, some people can look backwards, some people can look sideways. Yeah. Unclear how sideways is different than forward as forward was described, because that seems like sideways to me. It's more multiverse, you know, but there's a world where everyone is green. Um Yeah, so you can just see like possible outcomes of things. Yeah. And over the many centuries he's gotten pretty good at figuring out which ones are more and less likely. And then he might, if he so chooses, try to steer people in one direction.

SPEAKER_01

So in interesting notes about his nature, I like how he describes himself, touched by both sets of gods, shunned by both sets of people. There we go. Very cool. Um, and that is what sets him apart from other druids who do not live a long life.

SPEAKER_02

That seems unfair.

SPEAKER_01

It does.

SPEAKER_00

Um Ella go and die before Kaelin.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Sad. Rest in peace. Unless she can touch spark, which I mean, given the uh heavy suggestion that Colin Kaylin Corbin, that Kaelin is a druid. Um I don't know. Ella Ella's gonna be touching the spark before long, right? Yeah, she can be touching Tanner's spark. She should be touching Tanner's taint, if my prediction is right. Um Yeah. So multi we got two sets of gods.

SPEAKER_01

So about that. Yeah, was it the Incaran and the Druidic gods?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So we've got spark gods, we've got the druid gods. Um beats me at right. Are they are they like localized in a certain location? There's also this stuff about like Ephialtier is trying to tie himself and the blood moon more closely to this land, humans coming to a fury from somewhere else. I feel like these are all circling this same lore reveal.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know what it's gonna be, but or it's like Greek versus Roman mythology and the pantheon's the same, just with different names.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's like Wolverine and Daredevil.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with myself. Uh this is we get more questions than answers in this section, is the important part.

SPEAKER_02

I was about to say this conversation feels like a dead end.

SPEAKER_01

But he gives them the coke mirror.

SPEAKER_02

This is gonna be this is gonna be good. Trust me.

SPEAKER_01

I really wanted to give this shit to you.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Dude, should we do a little red wall section? Yeah. Which is read the riddle. Yeah. And uh try to puzzle it out here. Yes, please. I was hoping that you had it. Don't worry, my friend. I have it. It's also on Kindle, it's one of those ones that pops up as everyone highlighted this. Nice. Okay, here we go. So this is what what is his name? Rokah? Rokah. Rokah says to Kalen, and he prefaces it by saying, I have no fucking clue what this means, but I should tell you. Okay. A city once lost, found it needs to be. That's like a Yoda ism. Found it needs to be. Found it needs to be.

SPEAKER_01

Was that good? That's actually really good. I've been watching it. I've never tried it. I've been watching a lot of Clone Wars, and that was spot on.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. I didn't know I had that in me. Can you do your best Jar Jar Binks? I found the lost scene. Wait, what's that guy who has that horrible, horribly offensive Chinese accent? Oh, is it the is it the traitor? God, well, he's like a bug-eyed alien man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think he's in episode one with young Ami.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, god fuck. Okay, we're not gonna do offensive accents from Star Wars in this episode. Next episode. Okay, a city once lost, found it needs to be. A gem, a jewel, a trinket of sorts, but truly more a key. Not a door that it unlocks, a secret to be revealed, a trick, a mask, a painting over truth, thought forever sealed. There is a stone, a heart of blood cast into the sea, the essence of life drawn from birth, stolen, taken, seized, the moon of blood of death and life linked the two may be, for connections made will rise once more when the moon you can see.

SPEAKER_01

My predictions. Yeah. If Kalen finds the secret bloodstone, his powers of good will combat Fane's powers of evil under the blood moon.

SPEAKER_02

That's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking in the way that he can draw sauce from death, Kaelin's gonna be able to draw sauce from life. He's gonna go to the birthing suite, power up his crystal. Yep. And you know his little pendant is clearly a key. There's clearly a glamour somewhere. Yeah, that that part seems quite obvious that his pendant that he was pondering over a few pages earlier. Yeah, is probably the thing here. Um, but I am wondering if there's like, you know, we've got our freaky god of death, this sort of god of life type of thing, and we're gonna have parallel, you know, yin and yang powers here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. We've also already discovered there are dwarven teleport chambers that take you to lost cities. So maybe we're going to those. Are we going back to the stone spiders? Your favorite part? The Carathlin.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

The crustal. We all remember that. Um yeah, there's a stone, a heart of blood cast into the sea. Maybe we have a whole Gillyweed sequence coming up. Um Yeah, I don't know. I think this is making me feel like my theory that the pendant was gonna help them find a bunch of dragon eggs is not gonna be correct.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, maybe not so much, but oh well. But it'll be something cool. And also, maybe he can breathe the life into the eggs. Maybe that's the thing. Oh, really? He's the midwife. Yeah, he's he's the the birther.

SPEAKER_02

Could be. Who's least likely to get a dragon? We should have asked that. I feel like we circled in you you had Dan, I had Eric. I I think it's Well, Asen. I mean, that is an interesting question. Yeah I'm not sad about my wife. I got a new wife.

SPEAKER_01

That which is broken can never be bound. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That feels like it breaks the rules a little bit. But I would love him to not be perma-sad. So um who's your pick? Uh Damon. Yeah. Can you imagine? It'd be horrible. Burn everyone. I'm sad. Oh no. Okay. Or Belina Luna on a dragon, I think, would be trouble.

SPEAKER_01

I would actually love that. Please get us there. I know.

SPEAKER_02

I do want that badly. So yeah, we'll see. We'll see. Um and then they're kind of off. I think we covered the Raca stuff pretty much, right?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I think this is legit a good jumping off point. We didn't talk about chapter 18, Dane, and I don't even think we should. Just saying.

SPEAKER_02

I just think there's gonna be so much there's gonna be more interesting stuff to say about Dane in the next episode, and we're already kind of long. So then remember when you said the writing got a little too prosaic and we understood what you meant? I'm gonna read a sentence that I that I found right at the start that I think. I like that he's I mean, I think the writing's good. And he is taking more risks, right? Like I think he's trying to, you know, show off his prose a little bit. But um This one the intricate spirals that ornamented the blades skintillated in the ebbing firelight, dulled only slightly by the blood that coated the steel.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's I want him to keep trying that stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he's trying more. Like because when I think it works, like here's where he talks about the elven city, and it's like a little it's a little similar, but it's like a chasm-spanning bridge connected the platform to a truly gargantuan set of gates that looked as though they'd been carved from a solid bone and inlaid with an intricate vine-like pattern of gleaming azure stone. And it just goes on with cool descriptions of stag statues. And it's like, okay, you're trying more than just big ass towers.

SPEAKER_02

Do you know what I'm gonna say now? Because I think that pointed me directly to something we've talked about. Hit it. It's an enormous conversation topic for us. Okay. This I picked up because there was in back-to-back paragraphs, he used the word enormous. He's like, there was an enormous table, and then it's like, and on top of it, an enormous cup. You found my handsome. You found my handsome. I so I was like, is he using this word all the time? Or is that just weird that he had in back-to-back paragraphs? I looked it up. Listeners, I'm gonna give you four seconds to guess how many times the word enormous is used in this book, which admittedly is very long. One, two, three, I'm cutting you off. It's a hundred and thirty-two times he uses the word enormous. It's an enormous number. That is wild.

SPEAKER_00

And then once I knew it, fucking everything's enormous. Nothing's petite. You know the like.

SPEAKER_02

I wonder if he knows that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Do you think Kahel knows how many times he uses that word?

SPEAKER_01

I yeah, I'd like to send him a follow-up email just to be like, hey, we ran the numbers.

SPEAKER_02

Would he care?

SPEAKER_01

He'd be like, I don't know. Everything's fucking enormous. What do you want me to do? I think he wouldn't care. That's a man who's really, really big. It's a man who's like, I have a child, I'm writing another thousand page book. I don't give a shit.

SPEAKER_02

Brother, this book is 10 million words long. Some words are going to be reused. Yeah. Um, to be clear, this infected affected my enjoyment, not at all, but but but now I do see that word a lot. I mean, it's basically one every 10 pages. So yeah. I wish he threw in a tiny hawk or a gang gang cacatoo. Yeah, that would be nice. Or at least something about cactus.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Any, I think that's sort of it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, we're gonna keep ripping. We'll we'll try another 300 to 400 pages. And uh from what everybody's been telling us, it gets it gets very good in the middle. So thank you to everyone who wrote us on Reddit and an email with your thoughts about the book. We love you. We do love you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, excited to get rolling. Yeah, this feels we were saying like, yeah, it's a lot of setup, but at the same time, we have like 10 POV characters who are all important. So checking in with them does take a lot of pages. So and convergence is on the horizon. Yeah. I was also I know we're long, but I'm gonna get this thought out there. I was having like a an intrusive thought in this this section of the book. It's like, does this need to be here? And then my counterpoint to myself was like, I don't even know if that's like a question I should be asking of an epic fantasy book. I feel like the good of this genre is like, no, not all of this needs to be here, but we're here because we can. Like, that's the fun of it, is you can go as wide as you possibly can. So, like, enjoy the ride. Like, it doesn't need to be a 90-minute screenplay. So that's what I was telling myself as I was feeling at times. It's like, okay, I'm ready to, you know, have this shit start speeding up a little bit. So it's a good way to put it. I like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Smell the roses. Okay. Yeah. Smell the taint. Smell the oily taint. Wash the taint every once in a while. Wash it with your incardine snow.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And with that, friends, go enjoy a nice stew pie. Mm-hmm. Say something in Elvish. Sklarkeder. Thank you.

Contributor

Avery

Host
Contributor

Travis Fox

Host