This Golden Hour

101. Julie Bogart and Becoming a Critical Thinker

• Timothy Eaton

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In today’s episode, we get to spend time again with Julie Bogart from Ohio. Listeners will love this enriching conversation on critical thinking, parenting, and the evolving landscape of education. Julie, the creator of the Brave Writer program and author of Raising Critical Thinkers and Becoming a Critical Thinker shares her wisdom on fostering self-aware thinking, navigating the challenges of grandparenting and parenting young adults, and the importance of allowing children to explore their identities freely. In our discussion, Julie imparted compelling stories and experiences to convey her curiosity and research around critical thinking. All of us who have listened to Julie and read her works are benefited by her wisdom and insights. 


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Julie's Books and Resources

The Brave Learner

Raising Critical Thinkers

Becoming a Critical Thinker

Help, My Kid Hates Writing

Brave Writer Podcast


This Golden Hour

Julie Bogart:

Like your job isn't to bubble wrap your teen and in the same way that we want to give them the opportunity to have experiences that teach them. We also wanna give them the chance to think illegal thoughts. Thoughts that don't align with the family value system or belief structure or politics or religion. We wanna give them the chance to play with ideas the same way they played with Lego. So sometimes. They're building from a kit, and part of the goal is to follow the directions and create something that has an outcome that's accepted and predictable. That would be like writing a resume or learning how to do a job interview. You're gonna teach them, they're gonna learn a skill, but then other times. You're dumping out the bucket and it's a free build.

Timmy Eaton:

Hi. I am Timmy Eaton, homeschool father of six and Doctor of Education. We've been homeschooling for more than 15 years and have watched our children go from birth to university successfully and completely without the school system. Homeschooling has grown tremendously in recent years, and tons of parents are becoming interested in trying it out, but people have questions and concerns and misconceptions and lack the confidence to get started. New and seasoned homeschoolers are looking for more knowledge and peace and assurance to continue. New homeschooling. The guests and discussions on this podcast will empower anyone thinking of homeschooling to bring their kids home and start homeschooling and homeschoolers at all stages of the journey will get what they need and want from these conversations. Thank you for joining us today and enjoy this episode of This Golden Hour podcast. As you exercise, drive clean or just chill. You're listening to this Golden Hour podcast. In today's episode, we get to spend time again with Julie Bogart from Ohio. We also had her on for episode 53, so check that out. Listeners will love this enriching conversation on critical thinking, parenting, and the evolving landscape of education. Julie, the creator of the Brave Writer Program and author of Raising Critical Thinkers and becoming a critical Thinker, shares her wisdom on fostering self-aware thinking. Navigating the challenges of grandparenting and parenting young adults and the importance of allowing children to explore their identities freely. In our discussion, Julie imparted compelling stories and experiences to convey her curiosity and research around critical thinking. All of us who have listened to Julie and read her works are benefited by her wisdom and insights. Welcome back to this Golden Hour podcast. We are again, so excited to be meeting for the second time with Julie Bogart from Ohio. Julie, thank you so much for taking time.

Julie Bogart:

It's so nice to be here. Tim. Thanks for inviting me back.

Timmy Eaton:

I. I am very excited to talk to you in general and specifically to focus on your book. And so I just wanted to read a little bit of bio and then you add like we did last time. Anything you want. Okay. And I wanna read this right from the book'cause I, I love how it's stated. It says, Julie Bogart is the creator of the award-winning innovative, brave writer program, teaching, writing, and language arts to hundreds and thousands of families for more than 25 years. She's the founder of Brave Learner Home and intentional home education community that supports parents through coaching and teaching. Julie is also the host of the popular Brave Writer Podcast. She holds a BA from UCLA and an MA from Xavier University where she taught as an adjunct professor and was awarded the prestigious Mags Award for Outstanding Contribution to Society. She has five adult kids and three grandchildren, and she is the author of The Brave Learner and Raising Critical Thinkers. Is it still three grandchildren?

Julie Bogart:

I love that you asked that. I have a fourth and he was just born two months ago, so Yeah. In fact, the day before my book came out, he was born. So it was like a lot of things happening at once.

Timmy Eaton:

So what's the ratio of boys and girls then?

Julie Bogart:

Three boys and one girl. So the oldest grandchild is a granddaughter, and she was really hoping for a sister, but she wound up with two brothers. And then my other daughter has a boy, so there's three boys and one girl, but they're all adorable and I loved being a mother. I loved having five kids. I've never regretted having five. But grandmothering, I always say the hyperbole is actually an understatement. It's just so good. Like I can't overstate how much I love grandparenting.

Timmy Eaton:

In the last episode that I did it hasn't aired yet, but I think it was in that episode where we were talking about how. You hear parents often say, man, if I could go back, I would, implement this and that, and you can do that as a grandparent. Totally. So I'm looking forward to those days.

Julie Bogart:

Totally. And the thing that's nice, I think about grandparenting is, and it's not something that you can get except for time going by. Your perspective is so different. I was joking the other day how my oldest son Noah, was my least conventional child, but he leads the most conventional life of all my kids. And so all that time that I spent anxious and worried was such a waste. So when I see a parent, one of my kids worrying about one of their kids, I have this much longer view to draw from. I can even reference their own childhoods and their current experiences as a way to help them, back away from panic. And so that's the gift of being a grandparent, right? You offer a different kind of perspective. You have more lifetimes to take into account than just your limited one.

Timmy Eaton:

Just so our listeners know that you need to go back and listen to episode 53 perhaps in, in preparation for this. That was with Julie a year and a half ago. I can't believe that was a year and a half ago. I know, but I was listening to it. It was minus 30 something here in, in Canada when we had that. And so I didn't remember that until I listened to the episode. Wow. But I was like, oh yeah, that was a freezing day. Kids were outta school. But you did the same thing in that episode, is you imparted that wisdom to me then and we need it now.'cause we are in the throes, our kids are 11 to 21. Oof. And I, yeah, you are. I really wanna rely and lean on, on that. Truth. I hope it's true because we are, we, the

Julie Bogart:

twenties. The twenties are tricky and no one talks about'em. Oh, let me just say that right now. The twenties might be the trickiest decade. I don't know if it's the hardest decade. It's certainly not the hardest physically, but emotionally, that sort of juxtaposition of this person being a full grown adult, but still not fully mature and your habit of guiding them, but you're really not supposed to anymore. That combination. It is really tricky. I feel like the thirties you come in for a landing.

Timmy Eaton:

Oh, that, that's, I like to hear that. So just real quick, on the twenties then, so what's your, one sentence advice then,

Julie Bogart:

oh my gosh. One sentence would be hard, but I will say it maybe in a couple sentences. I would say this, that the twenties do not define a person's adulthood. The twenties are for exploring a variety of identities and figuring out who you want to be. And as a parent, we're so set on security coming from a child knowing instead of giving space for that exploration, so your child turns down a really great job or quits college, or decides to travel on their own. As a woman in South America for two years like my daughter did, the tendency is to be afraid of those things or you should be investing in your career. You should not be doing these other things. But the twenties are for finding all that out, and it's not your job to save them from that journey. It's your job to partner with them by being supportive, interested, curious, meeting them where they are. It doesn't really change what you have been doing. It just feels riskier and scarier. And in their twenties, they have the chance to reflect on their childhoods. So that's when you start to hear things right? Yes. How they might have done it differently or what they wish was different than what you thought was good for them. All of those things happen, but they're all good. And I would say with my five anyway, I have good relationships with all five. I like who they turned out to be and I. We've had good conversations about the role of homeschooling in, in their lives, and it's very gratifying. I do feel like the investment has turned out to be positive, so that's a great feeling. I'm lucky I can say that.

Timmy Eaton:

It's so good. Everything you say is just you can tell you're a writer and I like how you emphasized last time you're a writer and writers write for readers and Yes. And you speak for listeners. So it's so good. My son is at the time you and I talked, he'd only been out a few months, but he's he's coming home from a two year mission service in about three weeks. And I was doing this thing at a conference I've told you about before the interview. And we had him just comment on how he thinks, like his experience shaped his learning and what he's doing now. And it is gratifying to hear their own expression about their experience having been homeschooled. And we just cherish what he said about that. And and I'm not saying it's always idealistic but definitely some wonderful, principles instilled in their lives. And that's actually a really good segue, I think, to just starting our interview as far as focusing on your book, because one of the things I wanted to ask you right off the bat. Was the your choice of the word becoming. And one thing that I would say that I learned from you just looking at all your materials and following you, and then having that interview with you, was I would say I hope I'm accurate in saying that you really believe in. Freedom and especially with learners and this workbook, if I could put it in a plug, parents need to understand that this isn't and I don't wanna be critical, but there's lots of people putting out workbooks that are pretty crappy, honestly. Like they're just not Oh yeah. They're not like well done and they're just quick to make money or something. Like I'm excited for my daughter to come home. She's doing an internship when she comes home, I'm gonna really encourage her and I think she will like to do this. Because it actually gives you insight into the future you're heading into. So this is a quality workbook. I just wanna say that. And I know it's a book too, but it's a, it's an excellent workbook. And it's very relevant to the youth. Okay. With all that said, why the emphasis on becoming and what is so important about the idea of. Becoming or growing into a critical thinker.

Julie Bogart:

So when I wrote Raising Critical Thinkers, I wrote it for parents and it had that two-pronged audience. I wanted to have the parent know how to raise a critical thinker, but in order to do that, I had to make sure the parent was already a critical thinker. So I was speaking out of two sides of my mouth, like how do I help a parent discover the ways that they aren't critically thinking themselves? Before they try to guide their kids, but teens in particular 12 to 18-year-old, they are very much on that journey and parents interrupt it all the time. We come along with our experiences. Our hard one wisdom and our job in our minds is to prevent our teens from having the bad experiences that we had when we were their ages. So we'll say things like, oh, you gotta be on time for that job. Because I remember when I was six. And I wasn't on time and my boss yelled, and then I didn't get the hours I needed or I got fired. But your team needs to actually get fired. They need to be yelled at by the boss too. Yeah. Like your job isn't to bubble wrap your teen and in the same way that we want to give them the opportunity to have experiences that teach them. We also wanna give them the chance to think illegal thoughts. Thoughts that don't align with the family value system or belief structure or politics or religion. We wanna give them the chance to play with ideas the same way they played with Lego. So sometimes. They're building from a kit, and part of the goal is to follow the directions and create something that has an outcome that's accepted and predictable. That would be like writing a resume or learning how to do a job interview. You're gonna teach them, they're gonna learn a skill, but then other times. You're dumping out the bucket and it's a free build. Totally. They're gonna discover what are the components that create the worldview That makes sense to me, and that's a terrifying moment for most parents of teens because for the first time, your kids are encountering other families and they're asking this question, wait a minute. Why do they do it that way? We do it this other way. This happened very early for me. I was probably in seventh or eighth grade. One of my best friends who lived across the street from me was Jewish and her family was orthodox, so they kept kosher. So my family was very much the granola, avocado, yogurt, family from Southern California. So we were very health conscious. So I go over to their house for dinner. They're having hamburgers. My family didn't eat beef and they were. Having Coca-Cola with these burgers. I don't drink coke. So I was over there saying I can eat the salad and the french fries. Can you just gimme a glass of milk? And they're like, no, we can't have milk on the table with beef. I was like, why not? Because we keep kosher. I'm like. But I don't keep kosher. I don't eat beef. I won't put milk with beef in my stomach. And they're like, no, it can't even be on the table. Mind blown. Yeah. Like, how is this a thing? What does it mean? Why are we different? And what's Melinda gonna do when she comes to my house? Do we have to keep milk off the table when we eat for, like all those moments where you suddenly realize that the shape of a person's worldview comes from this? Longer story than yes, at first glance. And sometimes the worldview that gets presented is one that's actually feels more rational or actually pokes a hole in the one you grew up with. And that's a moment of critical thinking. It's not a crisis. It's awesome. It's a critical thinking moment. Yes. And scary too sometimes

Timmy Eaton:

I'm glad you went there.'cause lesson 11 in the part one starts on page 73 says identity and the worldview grid. And I think that's what I, when I emailed you to get this interview, that was what I was telling you about, like my son in San Diego who's doing a mission service. Because he's speaking Farsi and he's working with most, mostly Iranians. In Afghanis, and he is just had his worldview totally blown open and it's been so positive because it if you're open-minded and not so careful about it, it is a blessing. You shared an experience in our first interview where you talked about your tennis coach and you said he, he just said when you started it was just, go, just hit the ball over the net and you were doing it between your legs and whatever. And that's so cool because that allows that freedom and then you actually want to continue and you want to continue to learn. And it's the curiosity that we're after. You also just said prior to this whole segment, you said, when your kids are in your twenties, the idea is to partner with them. And I think that would be consistent with what we're talking about. And one more thought and then just'cause you stirred so many. I've often thought of like the money situation that people are in and. And I've heard lots of people say they wanna leave a certain legacy for their kids and to each his own. I and her own. I don't wanna weigh in there, but it always has been a question in my head that somebody who's worked their tail off to build a certain amount of wealth to turn around and give that to their kids, wouldn't that cheat them of the exact growth to achieve the same outcome? And anyway, so I love all these things you're saying about don't get in the way, get outta the way.

Julie Bogart:

One of the things you brought up about this being a workbook is I wanna circle back to that and then I'll even address the money comment'cause I think it's an important one. Yes. My publisher originally asked me to write a workbook and I said, no. And the reason is I don't believe in workbooks. I don't use them in my company. I know

Timmy Eaton:

it's almost a hard word to use. It's yeah.

Julie Bogart:

I was like. That's I'm the anti workbook queen in my space. That sounds very contradictory. But then they said to me, because Cher Paragi is my Cher Books is my publisher. Yeah. They're like, no, we're thinking more like Jill Cameron's the artist's way. Like literally that they published her. And when I heard those words I was like, oh no. That I can do, let's create a tool that is more like a journal and a self-guided. Inquiry into your worldview, your identity, your thoughts, that helps expand them in meaningful ways. Doesn't direct them. I don't tell them what to think. There's not one place in this entire book where I'm secretly guiding an outcome. Instead, this is like an opportunity to spend time with yourself and be reflective about it, not just at the effect of your thoughts, but really examining why you hold them and what contributed to that perspective and what things haven't you considered. The impact of how you think, how it might appear to someone else. This is what critical thinking is about. So if you have deans, maybe call it a journal

Timmy Eaton:

but one thing that, I can attest to for sure is that when you have somebody who is and you'd probably be reluctant to call yourself an expert, but you are, and the prompts you give are coming from an expert who has wisdom and experience in these arenas.

Julie Bogart:

Oh, that's so nice. And it is nice to be able to write in it. That was the thing indeed I had said to my publisher, I'd love to write a book for teens. And so we came to this compromise, and so what I have done is I've actually added activities that are not in raising critical thinkers, and then I've reinterpreted some of the lessons through the lens of how a teen might find. A more valuable story. So instead of, appealing to an adult, I'm appealing to someone who's younger. It's funny that you brought up the tennis example because I recently published a book called Help My Kid Hates Writing, and I take this perspective and I think it matches what we're talking about here, that what we really want is to be a coach, not a referee. We do not watch sports and then admire the refs. We're not like, my favorite ref in the league is the one who really knows all the rules and gets it right. Most of the time, the refs are only there to ensure that the game is played fairly. But the people that we admire are the athletes, and the athletes got into their sport, not because they were good at the rules. They got into the sport because they were good at playing and they trust this outside entity to help them. And so when we think about writing or we think about thinking, the referee is just the person who helps ensure that you're able to play this game well. Yeah, they're not the expert on you. And in fact, in writing, what I say then is you want to be the coach, the person who can point out ways to improve. You're not there measuring their success, evaluating their effectiveness. You're there to support their growth and encourage, and so interesting. yeah. So interestingly I opened that chapter with that anecdote. I was like, back when I was a tennis student, our tennis coach first started by saying, hit the ball any way you can over the net. And then when we started to get frustrated, he'd be like, plant that back, foot, follow through, right? And suddenly those things. Had meaning because we had this important to us goal. Yeah. The goal wasn't to play right. It was to play well, when we're talking about thinking, it's very similar Sometimes we're so focused on getting our kids to think the right way. We're just indoctrinating them. Whatever we're indoctrinating them about veganism whether or not they clean up before they go to bed every night in their bedroom, how often they shower, right? Like we have. The parental propaganda package ready to go. And in

Timmy Eaton:

doing that, we rob them of that critical thinking and critical growth.

Julie Bogart:

That's it. So instead of being the referee who's telling them what they should think, how they should think, the conclusions they should draw, you can actually be a coach. And I had a son one time come to me and he was watching this YouTube video that was critiquing world capitalism. It was his first time of ever even thinking about capitalism as a system to be looked at, yeah. We're swimming in it and it went down a very, bizarre conspiracy theory, laden path. And my husband at the time, his father was like, we gotta stop it. And I said, oh my gosh, no. This is actually the first time he's ever even thought about the idea that you can critique. The worldview you inhabit. So we're just gonna go on this ride with him and trust that he's smart enough to figure that out. Well, Today if you rights lawyer and he did figure it out. Oh yeah. I was just like, he stayed interested. I was just gonna

Timmy Eaton:

say to not do that is to remain in a worldview with ignorance and then what? How is that empowering?

Julie Bogart:

Completely. Ooh, you should say that again. That's a fantastic quote.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. There's just, yeah, I don't know if I can restate it, but just the idea that like to remain in a state of like in, an ignorant state of your worldview is not empowering at all. It, if I have worldview for example, I definitely have ideas about God and I feel very convicted in my religion. But if I'm not open to learning about other views. Then how faulty is that testimony that I have? And think about the other way, if I do go through it all and come back to it, how much stronger is it? Oliver Wendell Holmes said, I wouldn't give a fig for the simplicity on this side of complexity, but I would give everything for the simplicity on that side of complexity. So you have to, oh, that's beautiful. You have to go through complexity in order to land back on simplicity. But now it's with wisdom and no ignorance.

Julie Bogart:

Em. Forster has a quote that I love that's similar to that. He says, everywhere you stand casts a shadow. So we want to find a place to stand where we cast as little shadow as possible facing the sun fully. For me, the reason that's powerful is that sometimes, especially. In my era where postmodern deconstruction was like the zeitgeist. You can stay in this endless loop of taking things apart and never finding a safe place to stand. But there is no safe place to stand. Every worldview, every perspective comes with its shadow. And so if you acknowledge, recognize. Process the shadow. Then when you face the sun, you're aware of its limits, but you're also able to live in that light with some kind of confidence and joy. And I think when we get defensive, it's because we're afraid of the shadow. Yeah. We're afraid of something not being

Timmy Eaton:

the way we thought, like

Julie Bogart:

not being the way it needed to be for us. One of the things that I think is really a hindrance. That has come around from the way the algorithms work online today compared to when it first started in the nineties, is that we keep being shown data that reinforces the worldview we already have. And when we get outside of that, it feels very destabilizing, very disorienting. So one of the activities I recommend, even in the workbook also in raising critical thinkers is that deliberate exposure to ideas that are not comfortable for you to get. Practice with examining things that feel outside your worldview. And an example, I don't know if I gave this example before, so stop me if I'm repeating myself, Tim. No, I like

Timmy Eaton:

repetition.

Julie Bogart:

Okay. When I lived in Morocco, I was a missionary at the time, so we were there with a conversion agenda. But our second year. Ramadan came around. This is a Muslim country. And I realized I, the first year, I felt so outside the culture out of step with what was happening, not really a participant and overlooked as a result. So my husband and I asked our landlords, would it be all right for us to fast, even if we're not Muslim? Like we didn't wanna be disrespectful. And they're like, no, you should absolutely fast. Yeah. So we fasted for the whole month. It was one of the most life changing months of my entire life.

Timmy Eaton:

Yes. Not

Julie Bogart:

only did we get into the slipstream of the culture, which was just fun. Just fun to be involved in that but I developed like a deep respect for what the goals of fasting were during that month and what it meant to them and their culture. And I feel like sometimes our fear is because we're looking for things to be true or false. Instead of trying to understand them.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah,

Julie Bogart:

and understanding is its own reward. That's an important part of just being human.

Timmy Eaton:

One of the things I've heard myself saying probably in the last seven or eight years to classes to my children, is that I've never been more comfortable with ambiguity than I am now. And it increases and so you were gonna comment on the money thing, you're doing a good job

Julie Bogart:

of keeping us on track. It's very interesting that you brought that up because my mother died on January 1st, which was huge loss for me. She is an author and we were very close.

Timmy Eaton:

Oh, I'm

Julie Bogart:

sorry. No, thank you. I am the executor of her estate the trustee, and so it's my job to divide up the money for the people that are supposed to get it. The only feeling I have the whole time is how sad I am that my mom didn't spend it. All of her money had been tied up in her house. So when she sold her house, she had this huge amount of money sitting in a bank account and she died 19 months later and now all that money is going to her kids, which is fine. I am glad she chose to give it to her kids. And she has one charity that she picked, which is amazing, but I. Just keep thinking about the fact that she lived so frugally for so long and then right at the end when she finally felt comfortable and free, she didn't really have long enough to do the things.

Timmy Eaton:

And

Julie Bogart:

I'm in this situation where I'm thinking a lot about that with my own family. I tend to give them money when I can like. Every December I'm like, they should have it now when they're in their thirties, not when they're like 65. So good. Yeah. But I also have the flexibility to choose not to if the year is not a good year for me financially. Totally.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Julie Bogart:

And they all know they make their own wealth. My, my grandfather interestingly got laid off in 1967 or eight, I think from his career. He had an eighth grade education, Irish immigrant, and he decided to take a chance. Broker business deals. He was reading the Wall Street Journal every day and seeing, here's a company over here that's looking for something and here's a different company looking for something else. And he got his wife to be his secretary and broker deals and he earned, made a million like. His retirement, and that was all sitting there at the end. It was, for me, it was such a beautiful model that when I decided to start my business, I was like, oh, I can do it. My grandfather did it. Yeah, that's possible. And I want that for my kids. I want them to have that same joy. So I see both sides of it. I don't know who else I would leave my money to. Totally. But I also think it's really important to instill in your kids the courage and confidence. To create their own wealth. It is pretty cool. That's a pretty cool thing.

Timmy Eaton:

And I would never wanna rob a parent or a grandparent of giving gifts of any size that you want. I would never say that a thousand percent. And I think it's very relevant what you said about when those are given, it's the struggle and the toil that allows us to grow. And so anyway it's I think it's all good. I think it's like where's your heart in the whole matter

Julie Bogart:

but a good topic for critical thinking.

Timmy Eaton:

Yes, absolutely. That's a great example. So here's what I was gonna say about critical thinking. Okay. And then I want you to maybe take it further to define it. When I was doing graduate degrees, my last graduate degree, it was like critical thinking was and should it like, rightfully so. It was a term that was used often, but I feel it was watered down a bit and it was just like people would just spout off the words critical thinking. So let's define it so that it's not just a trendy word, and at the risk of a poor analogy. It's kinda like the word bully. Now I know that bullying is a real thing, but people are using it so loosely that it loses its meaning. Yeah. And there are real instances of bullying. And so you don't want to water something down so that it loses its meaning or its effect. And just as there are real bullies, there is real critical thinking. So with that backdrop and so that it's not just this trendy word that people try to use to sound smart. What is critical thinking?

Julie Bogart:

Critical thinking to me is actually self-aware thinking. And the working title for the book had been raising self-aware thinkers, but my publisher did not think people would know what that meant. Yeah. So we went with the trendy word, but the reason that I chose self-aware instead of critical when I first wrote the book was because most critical thinking that you see objectified out there is I'm being critical of you. I'm able to deconstruct your argument. I can tell you what's wrong with how you think. So people think of critical thinking as criticizing the other guy.

Timmy Eaton:

But

Julie Bogart:

critical thinking in its academic sense and in its psychological sense, is the capacity to identify your own bias, to notice your own shortcomings of thought, your limits of authority and expertise, your capacity to ask. Probing questions, your willingness to reshape an opinion because the data contradicts what you thought was true and it points you in a new direction. Critical thinking is that willingness to pivot. It's the willingness to confront ideas that make you uneasy, and so when we talk about it, it really needs to be more personal. We tend to think of critical thinking as something we do to others when really. It should be what I call the academic selfie. You take the camera lens and you flip it around and you're looking at your own brain. You're examining your own way of thinking, not just the other guys.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. I love that chapter. My favorite course in my doctorate degree was called metacognition. Oh, yes. Perfect. And the definition of metacognition is. Self-aware, like it's basically it's awareness of my thought processes and that was a revolutionary class for me because I believe it because it was meta, but it was actually meta. It was like, I was going, okay, how, it's not like what am I learning? It's like, how do I go about. Learning this, and it's nuanced because if you're not used to doing that, it's a skill. Yes. It takes like practice, like a sport does to go okay, how to get inside your mind and go, like you said the academic selfie to really go, forget what I learned there. How did I go about learning it? And that is mind expanding.

Julie Bogart:

You need a toolkit to help you because you're limited by your own thoughts. When I was in grad school, for me that toolkit was Truth and method by Hans Gay or Gatr. And he writes this one document called The Art of Hermeneutics, and he goes through and asks these probing questions That completely changed how I read things. I was getting my degree in theology, so yeah. He would ask questions like, who is this written for? Who wasn't it written for? What is being said so good? What isn't being said? What, right? What's missing? And I remember I studied the Gettysburg address after that, and it was shocking to realize that we talk about it all the time as this document that has to do with emancipation of slaves and yet never mentions the word slavery. And yet I think all of us in America think that it does. And so it's one of those. So why is that missing? Why did he leave it out is a great critical thinking question. Yes. And it doesn't even mean that you'll get the right answer. It just means you're gonna start thinking differently about this idea, this concept, this text. And then the second thing, when you were saying you were tracking like metacognition. Thinking about thinking, right? That's what it means. Yes. Now I'm thinking about thinking and you, and then you're thinking about thinking. I know. It's very very challenging. It's like looking in

Timmy Eaton:

two mirrors facing each other.

Julie Bogart:

Oh, a thousand percent. Pretty soon you're like, the chorus line going back and back. That's what I mean about the endless deconstruction, because at a certain point it can drive you crazy. Yeah. But what I appreciate about what you said about being in that course is you were in a safe environment to explore those thoughts. And one of the things parents can do for their kids is give them room. So let's say your child says something like, I think I should be allowed to drive my car downtown at night. To go see friends, right? They're a new driver, they're 16. You don't think downtown's safe and your tendency as a parent is going to be listen, driving downtown at night is not safe. I don't trust you. Don't trust the car. Actually, I trust you, but I don't trust other people. That's like the kind version of manipulation, right? Wouldn't it be interesting to start from. Oh, you're, you wanna drive downtown at night and you're asking me permission, so you probably already have a hunch that I'm not for it. Tell me your best case. What is the reason you think it will be safe and a good thing to do? How have you thought about this? Because the thing is, when they're asking permission, a lot of times they haven't even thought through the best case. They're just prepared to argue with you. So give them the chance to reflect. Gosh, actually I hadn't thought about the safety part. I just wanna go, okay, mom, here's what I'm gonna do to be safe. Oh, okay. What, tell me more about what happens if you run outta gas. Where is your friend? Just, you don't even have to decide. Just help them. Learn the set of questions they need to be asking themselves. It shouldn't be your voice that controls their ability to make judgment calls. They need to internalize a voice. I'll give a quick story for my own young adulthood. I was traveling in Europe when I was 20, I guess I was 22 years old, 21, 22. And I was traveling by myself to meet someone in Switzerland. And I misjudged the time of when this train was gonna get into Zurich. It was getting in at midnight. And as it was approaching the station, I started to get very nervous. I was like, oh dear, I do not have a hotel booked. It's the middle of summer and it's midnight, and I'm a female alone. And I was chatting amiably with this Swiss girl and I didn't have the courage to say, Hey, can I just stay with you? And so I didn't say it. I get outta this train, I start calling. My dad had given me an emergency credit card, so I'm calling even five star hotels. They are all completely booked.

Timmy Eaton:

Oh.

Julie Bogart:

So I'm standing there and a dude walks up and he is do you need a ride somewhere? You can stay at my place. And I'm in this moment where I know that's a bad idea, but I'm also like stuck. And I had this weird surge of self-confidence to just say yes. So I get in his car, we're driving, he said he was two blocks. Oh no. 10 minutes later we're still driving. He starts making the kinds of moves girls don't want. Uninvited moves. I was coming fresh off of a mission, so I, yeah, just started sharing Jesus with him. I thought that'll alienate him. I'll just talk about God, by the way, didn't slow him down.

Timmy Eaton:

Oh, we

Julie Bogart:

pull up to his apartment building. It's an underground garage with a remote control up and down. So once we're in, I'm trapped, so we get out. So I. I look back, I'm proud of myself despite the poor judgment at the beginning. He has my suitcase. He's starting to make these kind of kissy faces, and I just start yelling. There's no one in there. I'm just screaming, Hey, leave me alone. You can't touch me. Gimme my bag. He runs to the elevator, pushes the button. And now the elevator's coming. He has my bag and all of a sudden another car pulls in and he's are you coming? So I look at the other car. It's being driven by a dude also. And I said, yes, I'm coming with you. I ran up and I yanked my suitcase out of his hand and I ran Wow. To the other guy. And the guy only spoke Swiss German and I only spoke English, but I'm like pointing and I'm like, hotel.

Timmy Eaton:

Oh my goodness. Did you tell your parents that?

Julie Bogart:

Oh yeah. The guy takes me to a hotel. He turned out to be a decent guy. The hotel did not have room for me. They booked me in another hotel. They put me in a taxi. That hotel's in the Red Light District, I'm walking past drug addicts and horse. It was an experience. I ended up, it sounds

Timmy Eaton:

like a movie.

Julie Bogart:

It was ridiculous the whole time. I felt so much guilt. I felt so much guilt, like how did I wind up here? How did I make so many bad judgements? But then later when I was in my later twenties and I was in therapy, my therapist just started pointing out all the good decisions I made. All the moments where I kept correcting, course, kept advocating for myself, didn't give up. This is what I think critical thinking is all about. It's not summary judgments. It is the willingness to keep course correcting and to be brave enough. To have the courage to stand up for yourself. Even in the hardest moments. And yeah. When I told my parents, like one of them flipped out and I'm like I'm safe. I'm here.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Julie Bogart:

And my mother was like, do this, what's your preference? Yeah. And my mom was like, I'm so proud of you. I'm like yeah. And that will never happen again. Okay. So fast forward having teenagers and young adults. Am I terrified when my daughter says, yeah, I'm gonna travel for two years alone in South America? Yeah.

Timmy Eaton:

Because you know some realities about it.

Julie Bogart:

That's right. Am I gonna stand in her way? No. No. So I know that's a dark story, but

Timmy Eaton:

No, it's powerful though. Are you familiar with Brene Brown?

Julie Bogart:

Oh yeah, I love her.

Timmy Eaton:

Okay.'cause that, that just reminds me of a lot of like things centered on shame and that's what we culturally have done for forever. And yes. Continue to do. If I were to be conscious of it, how many times I employ, wrongfully that type of mentality on a daily basis, it's like you said, how do I take this experience and shine light on it and learn from it in a positive way instead of emphasizing the negative. But

Julie Bogart:

I wanna jump in for a minute. Yeah. Because I was in the white heat of telling this story, and my brain right now is doing a critical thinking reflection. Do it.

Timmy Eaton:

That's metacognition.

Julie Bogart:

It is. I used the word who, because when I used to tell the story, that's how I told it. But I know now that I should say sex worker and respect those women. Whatever their decisions or choices are. It's not my job to use a pejorative word to describe them. All it did was heighten the drama of my story at their expense. So that for me is. Like wild that just happened.

Timmy Eaton:

In the light of that, and especially from a religious worldview what critical thinking really can lead to is penitence. That's what you just felt. Yes. Like you I did. You said that because you said and to take that even further, like when you think of way, the way that Jesus Christ as a figure in the scriptures and in history, treated the totally. Outcast aligned and the outcast and the marginalized and and.'cause in no case did he ever condone wrong but to not critically think about those things is to cast premature judgment on a situation you don't understand. And again, it's not to condone. And too often we're so careful about, Hey, I'm not condoning this, but instead of just going. Again, from a religious, let God be the judge and just love people and be accepting. And

Julie Bogart:

then to your point, if Jesus Christ is a picture of how God's posture is toward people, it isn't judging.

Timmy Eaton:

No.

Julie Bogart:

So when we're in that moment where we have a child who has made a decision or revealed a dimension of their identity that we feel instantly nervous about, it's a good moment to check in with what it means to be human. Yes, and what it means to have an encounter with somebody else and to really get behind their eyes because part of the self-aware thinking that we are trying to encourage for everyone is the recognition that if I had the same set of experiences, the same background, the same education, the same upbringing as the person I'm talking to, I would have their worldview. That is the worldview I'd have. Yes. So it's not because of a flaw in their thinking anymore than I have a flaw. We're all just grappling with the inputs that are unique to us. And so when we need each other with that shared humanity, there's kindness that gets exchanged. Sometimes harder than other Times. Times there are some heinous acts. I can't for sure. I have a friend who was murdered, right? Like I can't quite I don't know that person, like it's bigger than me. I'm not adequate.

Timmy Eaton:

It's beyond our understanding. If we, Descartes said, whatever's clear and distinct, and it's if you can at least acknowledge that you don't know everything, then you should at least leave some room for things you don't know, that's right. To take that principle of what you're saying we use the word presentism sometimes. The idea that, like we take today and we're reading history I did history in my. Pre in my undergraduate. Me too. And yeah. Awesome. Awesome. But, that was one of those big things is and it's hard and critical thinking asks you to do this. It's whatever's trendy can be easy to jump on the bandwagon, for example, to condemn slavery. And I do, the act of it. But we will get my kids were watching with their friends last night, projected on our garage. Remember the Titans? Have you seen that?

Julie Bogart:

Oh, yeah.

Timmy Eaton:

And it's a great movie, but it definitely highlights some of those feelings and instead of saying, I condemn the wrong of something which, and even there, you need to be open to learning in your worldview. We don't condemn individuals. And we might say, how could they have done that? What was the deal? And then, whereas it is, it's like it is heinous for our thinking today. But then if you were to actually put yourself in the shoes of those who were in. The South and in, in those situations and the backgrounds that they came from, the way their parents talked about it doesn't mean you agree with it. It means you can at least have a level of understanding. Regardless of how detesting it is to think of some things that happened in history.

Julie Bogart:

Yes. You actually have to, because if you don't understand what created the dehumanization in the first place, you can be subject to it again. And such a hypocrite and such a hypocrite. And we see that happening. We see. All the time, dehumanizing others in the United States. Right now, it's happening with immigration. My son-in-law is Mexican. My grandson speaks fluent Spanish. I'm worried about their safety. They are being dehumanized. He's here married to an American. These are things we can actually grapple with in the here and now, not just relegate it to the archive of history and say, I would've been better than they are. I remember hearing someone say. If you're not marching now, you wouldn't have been marching then. I think that's an interesting way to think about it.

Timmy Eaton:

It's not asking people not to have a backbone, critical thinking. It's saying, it's almost what we said earlier in order to get on the side of simplicity after going through complexity. You have to be open to going through complexity or else you're just close-minded and then you're not progressing. Sometimes we don't read the full titles of books, we just read the big part and it's yours is becoming a critical thinking, a workbook to help students think well in an age of disinformation. I was gonna ask you like is the is the goal of critical thinking to have a particular outcome or. And my guess is no. And because that's what critical thinking is, but you are trying to learn to think well in an ongoing effort to to expand your mind.

Julie Bogart:

A great word that is often used in Christian religious circles is discernment. It's really being a discerning thinker. It's the capacity, and we're gonna need it more and more. To recognize ai. To understand when somebody is manipulating you or using you for an agenda. Our kids have been raised in the capitalist world where we're more alert to ads, right? We're able to say, oh, they're trying to sell me something, and they know all the language that is meant to marshal them to part with more of their money. We know that story pretty well. We can. Still sometimes feel manipulated, buy two, get one free Amazon Prime days, whatever. But it's not hidden. It's not cloak and dagger. It's very open. This is a sale, or this is definitely what I'm trying to get you to do. What's happening right now that is a little more insidious is that the tactics being used to create a coalition around an agenda. Sometimes they're less visible to us, and AI is making them even less distinct. So one of the benefits of critical thinking again, isn't the outcome, it's the skill of asking good questions. And that's really what I hope happens by the end of working through this workbook, is that there will just be like this slew of automatic questions that we ask who said it, in what context, with what background and expertise. On what authority? Yeah, with what research applying to whom. Like these should be reflexive questions, but most of us are just like, oh, that podcast was so good. He said it. It must be true. And sometimes we don't recognize that it takes a minute. To hear the words and then just like you said, pause and then just pose one question and follow it a little bit, so a person said that I remember someone saying one time, there are more gunshots shops in America than churches. And then I heard someone ask the question. So tell me, how many gun shops have you seen today on your drive and how many churches? And I instantly knew where all the churches were and had seen no gun shops. And so then I was like, okay, so then. Where does that stat come from? And is it accurate? And gunshots are just really good at hiding themselves compared to churches. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

Timmy Eaton:

Be open to that, right? Yes,

Julie Bogart:

exactly. So I went down this rabbit hole of like actually trying to find out the truth. Yes. And that's what I mean, like being willing. To not just be a passive receptacle of people's opinions, postures and data, and being an active participant in asking good questions.

Timmy Eaton:

That's so good. And it's so relevant to the day we're in, which is so weird because we've never had more communication and ability. I know. But this morning I was looking at something on YouTube and there was a very, very prominent figure. Saying something and saying to hit the button below, and I'm going, this is not that person. And if we're gonna just think that we can justify actions based on ignorance, we're gonna reap the consequences of that. And and it's hard. And so it's not that people have to fear it, like you say in the last the last chapter of open ai. But we need to be smart and we need to be critical thinkers.

Julie Bogart:

Interestingly enough, I am just adding a segment to my podcast called Julie Changes Her Mind. So I wanna like highlight times when my mind gets changed. Yes, because I think it's important. But one of the ones where I feel like my mind is being changed is over open AI because of what's happened so rapidly in the last. Year. And even though I still think you can probably use it effectively with prompts and there are ways to use it that don't undermine your creativity. Yeah. The widespread use of it in universities in the United States anyway and high schools is deeply troubling, and I think it just points to this larger failure of the educational system to adapt to a technological era instead of the industrial one. It's so

Timmy Eaton:

fast.

Julie Bogart:

It's so fast, and so students are writing. I, in my new book I talk about it, I have a whole chapter on it. Students are writing. For an evaluator, but in some of these schools, the evaluator now is an AI tool. So what motivation does a child have to write if there isn't even a human reader? And even when it was a human reader, it was for evaluation not to be read. Meanwhile, kids are reading tiktoks podcasts, discords, because they do wanna be read. They wanna be taken seriously. They want to be heard. So we're in this very important moment. Yes. Where we're having to reevaluate how we do education, which is why I am still a pretty big fan of homeschooling, to be honest.

Timmy Eaton:

And Me too. And we homeschool for so many different reasons and, and academics is one of'em, but it's not even the highest on a lot of people.

Julie Bogart:

No, I agree. Same.

Timmy Eaton:

I just wanna first of all, thank you for this awesome workbook and book and for all that you're doing.'cause it's such important work. I think that you're helping people not only develop their own minds and thinking, but that's gonna be multi-generational to, to be able to pass that on to your kids. Oh. So thank you very much for that. Thank you. I'll give you the last word on either your book or anything you wanna say from what we talked about. I love when we talked because. That was the second time. I know it's going well when I'm not following anything I planned'cause it's so fluid.

Julie Bogart:

Oh, that's amazing. I love being on this show and it's really a unique opportunity for me because I feel like I can be my complete self sometimes. It's tricky. I've been through so many cognitive changes over my 63 years and the one thing that I feel like. Is the through line for my entire life is that writing has been the best friend I've ever had. It has helped me know myself, heal myself, and express myself. And in this era of ai, I want kids to have that tool available to them. I want them to feel not empowered by ignorance, but by their own. Writing voices and their own meaningful insights and thoughts. And I think what's about to happen, fingers crossed, is that the resource and preciousness of our own humanity in relief against this fake world, yes, is actually going to become the best currency we have in relationships. And so my wish in all my work. From the brave learner to raising critical thinkers to becoming a critical thinker, to help my kid hates writing, is to protect, preserve the integrity of that interior life of our children. That's everything to me. I care about that more than anything.

Timmy Eaton:

And I believe you when you say that.'cause it seems to come out in everything that you do. So thank you again for spending time with us. We're so grateful to have had you for, again on this Golden Hour podcast. That wraps up another edition of this Golden Hour podcast. If you haven't done so already, I would totally appreciate it if you would take a minute and give us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. It helps out a lot, and if you've done that already, thank you much. Please consider sharing this show with friends and family members that you think would get something out of it. And thank you for listening and for your support. I'm your host, Tim Eaton. Until next time, remember to cherish this golden hour with your children and family.