129. Training Adults, Not Raising Children with Jon Couch

In today’s episode, we get to spend time with Jon Couch from Southern Alberta. Jon is a homeschool father of six children, former IT tech, and entrepreneur. When he and his wife, Angela, decided to homeschool, Jon’s primary motivation was controlling the curriculum and avoiding what he considered dangerous ideologies in the public system. He has also had concerns about peer-driven socialization combined with access to cell phones and a world of unmonitored technology use. In our conversation, Jon shares his family’s core purpose centered on kindness, we discuss the homeschool and life division of labor between Jon and Angela, and Jon reveals the greatest challenge and greatest reward in his experience as a homeschool dad. This episode is a must-listen for all homeschool fathers and couples. 

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Transcript

Jon Couch 0:00

I want my children to be able to think that right there, number one, more so than avoiding what I believe to be toxic ideology. I want my children to. Have a firm understanding of who they are, their sense of self, their sense of self-worth, and the ability to think critically in order to recognize faulty reasoning. Cool. Before. I send them out into a world that is going to attack who they are, cut down their self-worth. Present them with all sorts of bad arguments.

Timmy Eaton 0:52

Hey guys. This is Timmy Eaton, homeschool father of six, doctor of Education, creator of the Proactive Homeschool dad or PhD course, and host of this Golden Hour podcast that you're listening to right now. We've been homeschooling for almost two decades now, and we've had three of our children go from birth to university without the conventional school system and without a diploma. This Golden Hour Podcast focuses primarily on supporting homeschool dads with their important roles and responsibilities, specifically helping them to align and strengthen their relationships with their spouses and children. But we'll also discuss tons of homeschool topics and books and curricula. So pour an ice cold glass of carbonated water with a lime. Go for a long drive or do a chore, and listen to another inspiring episode of this Golden Hour podcast. You are listening to this Golden Hour podcast. In today's episode, we get to spend time with John Couch from Southern Alberta. John is a homeschool father of six children, former IT tech and entrepreneur. When he and his wife, Angela, decided to homeschool, John's primary motivation was controlling the curriculum and avoiding what he considered dangerous ideologies in the public system. He has also had concerns about peer driven socialization combined with access to cell phones in a world of unmonitored technology use. In our conversation, John shares his family's core purpose centered on kindness. We discussed the homeschool and life division of labor between John and Angela, and John reveals the greatest challenge and greatest reward in his experience as a homeschool dad. This episode is a must listen for all homeschool fathers and couples. Welcome back to this Golden Hour podcast Today we are excited to have with us John Couch from Southern Alberta. John, thanks for being with us.

Jon Couch 2:43

Thank you, Tim. It's great to be here.

Timmy Eaton 2:46

John and I are good friends for several years now, and he is a homeschool father of six children ranging from what,

Jon Couch 2:52

my youngest is two at the moment, so I guess not quite accurate to say I've got six homeschool children, but,

Timmy Eaton 2:59

oh,

Jon Couch 2:59

I homeschool in training.

Timmy Eaton 3:00

He originally from BC and, through experiences he learned how to work and he carries that into his role as a father. But tell us anything else wanna add to the bio and then we'll jump into some questions.

Jon Couch 3:11

Well, I guess short, short version is I left BC'cause. I couldn't get a job. And this actually is relevant to how we ended up in homeschooling. So I couldn't get a job in bc. I came out to stay with a friend in Alberta, walked out the back door of his house, walked up the hill and had a job. So just to give you a little bit of a. A sense between the experience of looking for work in BC versus looking for work in Alberta at the time. And ended up in the oil field, decided I didn't wanna stay with that for the rest of my life. So I went back to university, got my computer science degree worked in tech for 15 years. And then I. Now I breed dogs by a strange twist of fate. So I'm self-employed working out of my home, which is. An absolute glorious blessing if anybody can experience that.

Timmy Eaton 4:11

So maybe tell us a little bit about that. Like what was your first exposure to homeschool? How did you and Angela, your wife. Kind of decide, Hey, we, we wanna do this.

Jon Couch 4:18

Well, I met Angela and there's absolutely nothing about my wife that fit the homeschooling stereotypes that I was raised with. She wasn't weird. She wasn't socially awkward. She wasn't, this, niche person standing in the corner, only included because you feel sorry for her. No, like she's beautiful, she's vibrant, she's intelligent. She's more social than I am. I'm more inclined to lock the door and not answer the phone than, and she is, if we're spending time with people, it's probably because she asked me, Hey, shouldn't we go? The eats out for dinner or something. She's phenomenal. And she was homeschooled. I was not I had the classic public school education and everything, good, bad, and ugly that goes along with that. And she was homeschooled and given the two, upbringing experiences. If I had to pick one, I would pick the homeschool. And again, you watch the news, you kind of see what's out there, whether or not it's embellished or, the, the reports are pure hyperbole. You see what's happening with public education. With the curriculum, with just the general trend of society, and that's not what I want for my kids. So it was a pretty easy decision to say like, hey, I can have a say in what my children are being taught.

None 6:03

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 6:03

I can provide context that. The, the public school curriculum will not provide, I can explain, how it is as a society we got to this point.

Timmy Eaton 6:18

Yeah.

Jon Couch 6:18

Rather than just say like, Hey, isn't it great that we're at this point? Well. What if you disagree that it's great that we're at this point?

Timmy Eaton 6:26

Yeah.

Jon Couch 6:26

Like that's a perspective that they won't give you in a public school classroom. And there's multiple reasons. They won't give it to you, but they won't give you the perspective that conflicts with the prevailing ideologies that I see coming to the forefront in public education.

Timmy Eaton 6:46

So would you say that your motivations were primarily curricular or just that's like an extra that you're like, sweet. I'm glad it's like that

Jon Couch 6:53

for myself. My motivations is primarily curricular.

Timmy Eaton 6:57

Hmm.

Jon Couch 6:57

If the public schools were content to leave it at, reading, writing, arithmetic. Then my kids would probably be in public school. Hmm. But they're not, so they're not,

Timmy Eaton 7:11

yeah. So was Angela homeschooled like her whole life?

Jon Couch 7:14

Yes. Some of her siblings did years here and there. Just go to high school for a year and see what it's like. And Angela, I believe. She went for half of a year and in her words, it was so depressing that she went back home to finish the Europe.

Timmy Eaton 7:34

That's

Jon Couch 7:34

interesting. Like just, just seeing what the public school kids were like. And that was 35 years ago.

Timmy Eaton 7:42

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 7:43

The reports that I'm hearing about the high schools in the area here. I depressing is the word that comes to mind. I love my kids. They're such good kids.

Timmy Eaton 7:56

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 7:57

And to send them into an environment that I believe, I, I honestly believe is going to hurt them. I don't want to do that.

Timmy Eaton 8:06

Yeah.

Jon Couch 8:06

I will do whatever I can to avoid that.

Timmy Eaton 8:09

And when you say hurt, you're talking about those ideologies that are being perpetuated to kids that are in a very impressionable stage type of type of thing? Or like what do you

Jon Couch 8:18

Both ideologies and the social interactions that I believe are going to be emotionally damaging. I don't know when, as a society. We got the idea that it was the right environment to expect peers, teenage peers, to teach our sons and daughters how to be men and women. Hmm. Like wouldn't you want men to teach your boys how to be men? Wouldn't you want women to teach girls how to be women?

Timmy Eaton 8:59

Seems a bit common sense.

Jon Couch 9:01

Yes. So you get a, a pack of boys together, they're going to act like boys, they're going to reinforce boy ideas of what is and is not acceptable. And then you throw the internet on top of that but you add the cognitive limitations that teenagers have, particularly in assessing the proper consequences of choices.

Timmy Eaton 9:32

Yes.

Jon Couch 9:33

And then you add unlimited access to who knows what quality of influence.

Timmy Eaton 9:41

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 9:42

And,

Timmy Eaton 9:42

And access to social media and something else, and, and the rest of it. So those are pretty clear motivations. And you would say that you and Angela are fairly on the same page about all of that, like

Jon Couch 9:51

Oh, absolutely. She was the driving factor. She was the one that came up and said, Hey, I don't want to put the kids in public school'cause

Timmy Eaton 9:59

mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 9:59

I was public school raised.

Timmy Eaton 10:01

Yeah.

Jon Couch 10:02

For me, I just kind of assumed that my kids would go to public school. Until Angela came and said like, how do you feel about homeschool? Yeah. And I honestly, I didn't have an answer at the time. Yeah. I was like, I have what I was told growing up that homeschoolers are weird.

Timmy Eaton 10:21

Yeah.

Jon Couch 10:22

And yet I have my wife who is a shining example of perfect homeschooling, so I had no argument against it.

Timmy Eaton 10:32

Hmm.

Jon Couch 10:32

And the more I thought about it, the more arguments I found in favor of it. Yeah. To the detriment of any argument towards sending them to public school.

Timmy Eaton 10:43

And I had a similar experience. And the only, my only thing was, I think I was slower on the convincing part of like, I wasn't opposed or something like that. But I was definitely like, just, I would say ignorant. And so how old was Liam when you guys started really considering it? Was it like before you started having kids or as you had kids and it was approaching.

Jon Couch 11:00

I think our first conversation on the subject was roundabout when he was four. we were kind of halfway talking about like the kindergarten thing, like what are we gonna do with kindergarten and

Timmy Eaton 11:14

yeah.

Jon Couch 11:15

I assumed he was going into kindergarten. And Angela assumed that he was not going into kindergarten. So this is one of those lovely, marital conversations that need to have where, one of these things is going to win out. And reason prevailed.

Timmy Eaton 11:32

I can relate to that. I feel like you and I had kind of a similar situation. Sarah wasn't homeschooled, but she definitely started reading a lot, asking the questions, and then asking others about like, Hey, so what is this thing? Her big thing was it felt so unnatural to send our kid away at five or six years old, and she's going, why, why would I do that when I'm like totally happy? Not even, worried about, at that stage, ideology or something else. Just that why am I having somebody else spend all this quality time with my child was kind of the, big thing there. Yeah. So then absolutely. Do you remember at the beginning stage, like how did you, personally learn about homeschooling? I feel like a lot of dads are just kind of like. their wives have looked into it and the dad just kind of feels kind of weird about it at first, and then slowly kind of gets onto it and then he, becomes supportive, but doesn't really dig into it. So how did you learn about homeschooling, either philosophically or just, did you read books or did you just learn from Angela? Or like how did you do that in your situation?

Jon Couch 12:26

For myself, I would say at least in the initial stages, the, the very typical, like, you wanna homeschool what,

Timmy Eaton 12:33

yeah.

Jon Couch 12:34

That skepticism was definitely there. But especially with my work in, technology my computer science degree I read constantly. If there's a homeschooling website out there that I haven't looked at, I'm not aware of it. Many books, many peer reviewed studies. Not that there's many out there, but Yeah. the ones that are out there, I've read them. And then add to that the studies on social media screen usage in particular, screen usage and social media's effects on the developing brain.

Timmy Eaton 13:12

Yeah.

Jon Couch 13:13

The fact that educational outcomes are tanking in every public school in which they've. Increased the level of technology that's involved in the education process itself.

None 13:29

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 13:29

Even if it's a smart screen board at the front of the classroom, as soon as it's a screen, it impacts the brain differently then physical pen, pencil on physical paper, and I want my children to be able to think that right there, number one, more so than avoiding what I believe to be toxic ideology. I want my children to. Have a firm understanding of who they are, their sense of self, their sense of self-worth, and the ability to think critically in order to recognize faulty reasoning. Cool. Before. I send them out into a world that is going to attack who they are, cut down their self-worth. Present them with all sorts of bad arguments.

Timmy Eaton 14:36

That's really well said, well articulated. So it sounds like initially you didn't need to be convinced to look into it, to start learning about it. Just on your own efforts, you were like, Hey, if we're gonna do this, I'm interested. I'm gonna read about this, I'm gonna learn about this. Is that accurate?

Jon Couch 14:51

I needed a little bit of convincing to get me out of my assumption that they were going to public school.

Timmy Eaton 14:59

Gotcha.

Jon Couch 15:00

Once that barrier came down, then it was just like, okay, I'm gonna learn about this because if we're doing this, we're gonna do it. Right.

Timmy Eaton 15:08

And now you've been doing this for over a decade, are you doing anything like intentionally to be learning on an ongoing basis? Or is that just your nature? It's not like you have to like write down on your schedule, Hey, read about homeschooling or. Learn more about homeschooling? Is that just like who you are? And then the other question with that, is there something happening like on a regular basis to kind of be up to speed on education and learning to inform home education decisions,

Jon Couch 15:34

And this is where kind of my claims about always reading don't necessarily mesh. I'm always reading, but whether or not it's intentional, whether or not I'm hunting down something as an effort to improve myself learn it kind of depends on what the needs are. Right in the beginning I felt that there was a real need to understand homeschooling. what is it? How do we do it? Right? Where is it going? Now it's more reading to see what are the trends in the public schools. Hmm. Where's that curriculum going mostly so I can avoid the pitfalls that I see. My mind is set, settled, maybe I should say, on homeschooling being the wise path. I'm with you, man. I, I agree. So I don't spend a lot of time reading anything that says, Hey, you should homeschool. Yeah, I already know that. Yeah.

16:35

You

Timmy Eaton 16:36

don't have to be

Jon Couch 16:36

convinced,

Timmy Eaton 16:37

I guess. Yeah,

Jon Couch 16:38

Yeah. I'm already convinced. So if there was something that came out that caught my eye about, Hey, homeschooling is bad, I'd probably read it. I haven't seen anything like that. Not from any credible source for ever. Once you start reading into articles like that, you usually find out that there's either a flawed source, flawed methodology.

Timmy Eaton 17:02

Yeah.

Jon Couch 17:03

Pre bias. Bias, extreme bias.

Timmy Eaton 17:06

Yeah.

Jon Couch 17:07

don't homeschool written by your local, school, public school superintendent. Like, okay, let's think about this for a moment.

Timmy Eaton 17:14

So the other thing I was wondering about in like researching homeschool is when you learn about your kids' interests and, the direction you're seeing things do you kind of look into that? Or is Angela principally the one going. As far as like curricular choices, book choices let's say one of your sons or daughters was interested in the trades, would you look into the programs for that or is she more likely to be like, Hey, this is probably a good path for you, or is that something you guys do together?

Jon Couch 17:38

We do it together. I would say she takes point on deciding which specific curriculum that we're going to try. We've tried a few over the years. Yeah. And it's usually something that she's come across. Maybe another one of the homeschooling moms has recommended it. She looked into it and she's like, Hey, what do you think about this? When it comes to like you, you mentioned if they were going to go into the trades.

None 18:06

Yeah.

Jon Couch 18:06

I would probably be the one hunting down, which trade schools, what programs. Right. What are you trying to. Look at what's the requirements for those? What are, what milestones do we have to meet? It, it's very much a. Collaborative effort.

Timmy Eaton 18:22

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 18:23

But we each have our strengths and we lean into our strengths and support each other's weaknesses.

Timmy Eaton 18:27

It sounds like you guys are pretty well aligned and we're from the beginning and I think the advantage a lot of times from having somebody who's second. Generation like Angela, there's so much things that they know already that a lot of us take a lot of time to learn. And so that's cool. An, an advantage. Is there anything that, you guys feel like, this is kind of a personal question, like, uh, but Sarah and I have definitely discovered several ways that we're not as aligned as we should be, even after almost, 17 years of homeschooling. Is there anything that is like almost a challenge because you don't feel like you agree on certain things it could be a number of things. Like for us it's taken us a long time to see eye to eye when it comes to like, our philosophy about the kids participating in school sports or about spending time with like-minded families, that kind of thing. Is there anything that you can kind of highlight to say, eh, this one, requires a little bit of work and we could be more aligned on this?

Jon Couch 19:17

The one that jumps to mind is. From my public school experience, there was a certain expectation that learning takes X number of hours in the day.

Timmy Eaton 19:31

Right,

Jon Couch 19:31

right. So, so what do you mean? They're done all of their work in 30 minutes, how is that possible? Like, they must have more to do

Timmy Eaton 19:39

and Angela's more chill with that. Like, she's like, dude, they, they're good.

Jon Couch 19:43

Like if they're hitting all of the milestones they're testing. Well, the, alternate school that we're signed up with as a facilitator that we work with?

None 19:53

Yeah.

Jon Couch 19:53

As long as they're happy, everybody's happy. Then if it takes 10 minutes a day or an hour a day, or two or three or four hours a day, really, does it make a difference?

None 20:04

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 20:05

At the start I was much more hung up on, no, it's gotta be like two or three hours a day at least. Otherwise, like, how are they learning it?

Timmy Eaton 20:14

Sometimes we have the conversation of not just can you get it done because there's no real checkpoint as a homeschooler. And so why not take advantage of the extra time and somewhat argue? Well, they are because. They're not confined to the bookwork or the whatever, and they're exploring nature. They're doing other things of, of higher value. But anyway, I totally feel what you're saying. Especially as they get older,

Jon Couch 20:35

especially as they get older. And the workaround that I have implemented to soothe my own expectations is every moment. Is a learning opportunity.

Timmy Eaton 20:49

Yes.

Jon Couch 20:50

Every question that comes up, okay, let's talk about this. every point of curiosity. Alright, let's dig into this.

Timmy Eaton 20:58

Cool.

Jon Couch 20:58

Let's get two or three of the kids together that are old enough to understand this thing, and let's talk about what is a pulsar. Let's talk about why did Russia invade Ukraine? Let's talk about. the war in Gaza, let's actually sit down and find a way, age appropriate

Timmy Eaton 21:19

mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 21:20

To go over whatever their question might happen to be.

Timmy Eaton 21:23

I love it.

Jon Couch 21:24

And nothing's really off the table. It's just, how deep into certain details do you get with the 10-year-old? How deep into those same. Situations do you get with the 15-year-old,

Timmy Eaton 21:37

but I love that it's the prerogative of you and Angela. It's prerogative of the parents. And I've had several people on this podcast that said, we meet the world together. And to me that's what you're highlighting. You're meeting the world together and like you said, nothing's off the table. Yeah, you can go as much depth and, and appropriateness and you can determine that as a loving parent

Jon Couch 21:55

And they're going to encounter it. let's say my son turns 18 and he goes and gets an apartment and he is got roommates and, and he's a, a phone call away instead of just down the hall. That's the point where my realistic ability to influence him is over. He's going to encounter everything that's out in the world. Whether it's the day he moves out or 20 years later or 50 years later, he's gonna run into it,

Timmy Eaton 22:25

right?

Jon Couch 22:26

My job as an educator, as a father, is to prepare my children so that when they encounter that they have. First a base from which to understand it.

None 22:42

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 22:43

And second, a self-identity that will allow them to continue on wiser and stronger. I don't know anybody that has made it through what life can throw at them. Without scars.

Timmy Eaton 23:04

Yeah.

Jon Couch 23:04

But my, wish for my children is that those scars are superficial and that they never feel that they've been broken.

Timmy Eaton 23:17

Attention homeschool mamas. Wouldn't you love to know how to help your husband feel more confident, more supportive, and more united with you and homeschool dads? Don't you wanna know how to give the best homeschool support to your wife and kids without having to guess all the time. Well, I created the proactive homeschool dad or PhD course to help homeschool dads become more intentional and involved without adding extra stuff to their full plates. In the PhD course, I share the following three secrets. Secret number one, become a Proactive Homeschool Dad or PhD, how to develop six powerful roles of a proactive homeschool dad or PhD in six weeks without feeling overworked. Secret number two. Your wife needs you, how to use your unique personality, skills and knowledge to support your wife and kids with homeschooling without having to be an expert. And secret number three, you have time. How to find enough time to support your wife and kids with homeschooling, even if your schedule is crazy busy. So go to this golden hour.org right now and register for my free web class on becoming a PhD, a proactive homeschool dad, and get way more detail about the course. This free live training happens every Thursday night at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time, or if you're ready right now for this course, go to this golden hour.org and sign up for the course right away. Thanks you guys. The thing that kind of ties in what we've talked about so far is the idea of your role as a father aligning with Angela and then kind of being the first people to meet the world with your kids. And this is hard to do, and I'm putting you on the spot like in this moment, but if you had to state, like here is the couch purpose statement in one sentence. An example, would be like, if a family felt like, man, one of the blessings of homeschooling is the flexibility and the control of just like what happens and the schedule and, in the curriculum, everything like that. And they might say our family gets outside every day no matter what, and we spend quality time in nature. something like that. What would be we, we

Jon Couch 25:16

actually do have a family statement.

Timmy Eaton 25:18

No way. Yeah. If either, if you could share that or paraphrase that or just kind of say that, what would that be? For the couches?

Jon Couch 25:25

It, it was developed when my children were a little bit younger.

Timmy Eaton 25:28

Yeah.

Jon Couch 25:28

So it will probably be updated at some point, but

Timmy Eaton 25:32

Cool.

Jon Couch 25:33

I still have young children, so couches are kind. I have not met a five-year-old that can't understand three words. Couches are kind so that, that is our family statement. If we update it, yes. I'd love to include things about, we think rationally, we're not controlled by our emotions. I'd love to include things like, nature is not just, beautiful but important. For your own, mental health wellbeing. As such, we should treat the nature as sacred. you don't litter when you're out in the woods. You don't litter when you're on the side of the street.

Timmy Eaton 26:16

Yeah.

Jon Couch 26:16

you pick up your stuff, you clean up your, your mess.

Timmy Eaton 26:20

Which

Jon Couch 26:20

ties with

Timmy Eaton 26:20

couches are kind,

Jon Couch 26:22

couches are kind it boiling it right down there. What do you want to be known as as you go out into the world?

Timmy Eaton 26:31

The follow-up question on that is like, what's the manifestation of that in everyday and nobody does it perfectly. I mean, if I said. Eaton's or whatever. It's not like you do it perfectly, but that's the focus, right? That's what you're striving for. What's happening to that end, I guess, on a daily basis?

Jon Couch 26:46

See, and that is a little bit tougher to Yeah. To put your finger on because it's more of a. Guiding behavioral ethos especially as you're trying to teach young children there's gonna be moments, they're picking at each other, they're pushing buttons, like people are screaming and yeah. Have to sit them down and just remind over and over, like, okay, you can have fun. As soon as it stops being fun for somebody, well, what's the rule? Kind of Because they're kind. Yeah.

Timmy Eaton 27:17

That's

Jon Couch 27:17

awesome. If it's only fun for you, it's not a good game. I pull that one out all the time.

Timmy Eaton 27:23

Yeah, I imagine things like, and again, nobody's perfect, but the example of parents and what they see modeled and then like you're saying, it is just like this daily commitment and I'm sure it's tiring because it can be wearing to go, oh my goodness, here we go again. But when that is your focus, it's in your mind, it's in your soul perhaps. And then you can implement that.'Cause somebody goes, oh man, if I write this down, I gotta commit to it. But like you said, you can change that too. I just encourage families and especially homeschool families, but any family. To have that because then they can know what to say yes to, what to say no to, what aligns with that priority and what doesn't and so on.

Jon Couch 27:58

And it's a simple enough priority. It should take, half a heartbeat for a 5-year-old to determine whether this situation aligns with that priority. Are you being kind or not?

Timmy Eaton 28:11

I was gonna say like, what it does is it creates a lot of teaching opportunities and learning opportunities.'cause if that's your focus, you're gonna talk about that a lot.

Jon Couch 28:18

You're right. And especially with small children they need that repetition, that reinforcement. Sometimes, 10 times a day, sometimes 110 times a day. So, keep it simple. Keep it something that, they know and like, we don't even have to repeat it. Yeah. Much anymore. It's just,

Timmy Eaton 28:40

it's

Jon Couch 28:40

embedded. It's just there.

Timmy Eaton 28:41

I'm curious, do you have it written somewhere?

Jon Couch 28:44

We did. It's. Off the wall

Timmy Eaton 28:48

broke. That sounds right. I wanted to touch on something that you mentioned previous, like we were talking about looking up things based on kids' interest, and you said you'd probably be the likely person to. If they were interested in trades or something like that, you might check out the avenue for that. Are there any other examples of things that you would say you and Angela have communicated pretty clearly? I call them win-wins. An example of that would be like even something as simple as, I don't mind doing errands and driving around sars not into that as much. And so that's a win-win. Like it's an easy thing for me to do. I don't mind teaching, in previous years, I would do math because I kind of enjoyed that with the kids and reading history to them. And I mean, Sarah does 99% of it, but I, the little things that I can do, I call'em win-wins. Do you have a couple of examples of that for you and Angela? Like, things that you're delighted to do and she's delighted to have you do them and vice versa?

Jon Couch 29:36

Actually, some of your examples ring true for us as well because Angela, for the most part could take it or leave it if there's something outside the house that needs to get done.

Timmy Eaton 29:47

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 29:47

So, I find myself running into town for, I did the milk run today. It's. Minus 22 out right now. blizzard, six inches of snow over the highway. So I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll do that. I don't mind. It's no worse than, driving on the ice roads out in Fort McMurray. So math math has always been my thing. Math, physics any of the quote unquote hard sciences that Angela's perfectly happy to hand those over to me. If there's anything that needs to be done there. She is a published author, so, when it comes to reading, writing anything to do with language in general whether it be social studies or, or. She's English or whatever. She's happy to Yeah. Yeah. She's happy to take point on those. So as far as division of labor goes there's very natural

Timmy Eaton 30:41

Yeah.

Jon Couch 30:42

Lines that we can kind of slice things up on.

Timmy Eaton 30:45

And I might be wrong about this, but I, if I remember right. Are you the main cook?

Jon Couch 30:48

I don't know that I would say that I'm the main cook. As with any. Adult who is tasked with feeding people multiple times every day. We both get burned out sometimes. Yes. So she'll have stints where she is, cooking, I would say all the time. And then without even really discussing it, it, it's quite something to actually ponder without discussing it. One day it'll just flip. And now I'm cooking all the time. That's awesome. I, I grew up in a house where there was quantity of food, but questionable quality. I love my mother. She cannot cook. So. Maybe edit that part out. But I learned how to make good food when I was, living on my own and responsible for my own food.

Timmy Eaton 31:46

Yeah.

Jon Couch 31:47

So when it comes to whether I'm cooking, it's. It's definitely encouraged that I'm the one that does most of the cooking. But. some days you just can't.

Timmy Eaton 31:59

Yeah.

Jon Couch 31:59

And

Timmy Eaton 32:00

well, I like that you say it's almost like intuitive, that you just kind of know, and that's probably true of other things, right? when somebody's having a day or whatever, and maybe you have more of an angle on that than a lot of homeschooled dads because you're home and you're maybe observing things more, maybe not.

Jon Couch 32:15

It's a very unique advantage. I, I can easily understand. How, a dad would, be outside whatever job, 8, 9, 10 hours a day. He's gone, comes home at the end of the day, and I mean, he's tired and mom's tired because she's been dealing with, 3, 4, 5, 6 kids all day.

Timmy Eaton 32:39

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 32:39

And, dinner still has to be made and the house is a mess. I get it.

Timmy Eaton 32:44

Yeah,

Jon Couch 32:44

I get it. It's not too far different from when I was employed full-time. I was still working from home at the time. I was employed full-time, so I was essentially locked in my office nine hours out of the day. Don't bother me'cause I'm in the middle of whatever it is that I happened to have to get done. And then you come outta the office and you kind of feel detached.

Timmy Eaton 33:10

Yeah.

Jon Couch 33:11

From what happened during the day. You don't really know where the kids are in terms of like, okay, how's math going? How is science going? How's, physics? We haven't really started chemistry yet, but we will. But you feel detached from that because you literally weren't around to participate. And, being able to be home, being able to be around, being, accessible. when somebody has a question, I can put down whatever I was doing and let's have an impromptu 20 minute class on this topic it's such a blessing. Such a blessing.

Timmy Eaton 33:52

I was wondering, first of all, homeschool. I always call it a misnomer because it's just like you're living life together and learning together, right? I mean, homeschool, neither are you home all the time, and you're certainly not trying to do what happens at school. So it's kind of a weird name. So I, I kind of call it learning intentionally as a family or just being a family. So inevitably you are like informally talking all the time about what's going on with the kids. It's just life. But do you and Angela have a, like a time where you go, okay, we gotta talk about, like, what's going on? Or is it totally, organic, the way that it comes up and says, Hey, we want to kind of get this certain book for Anna, or we wanna do this for the little kids. Or, or do you guys have a time where you, where you have a deliberate talk together about not just life, but like what's happening specifically for homeschooling?

Jon Couch 34:35

There's a lot of organic moments. There are intentional moments. Particularly at the start of the school year surrounding what sort of curriculum are we actually going to follow this year? Yeah. What are the options? So-and-so has recommended this. How do you feel about it? let's research into that. Let's look at those. So very intentional conversations at the start of the year around curriculum, around extracurriculars piano speech. Dance martial arts, all of the other things that, the kids have expressed interest in. How do we make this work? And then we meet with the facilitator several times throughout the course of the year, and there will be very intentional conversations leading up to those meetings. Where are the kids at? Are they deficient in anything? Do we need to put more time in? Generally the answer is, no, they're on top of everything, which is. Kind of a miracle in my mind, 20, 30 minutes, an hour a day. Like, how are they getting everything done? Like, public school kids are gone like 6, 7, 9 hours, five days a week because they're learning all the time. So there's a lot of organic conversations and your example of like, Hey, I was thinking about picking up this book. How do you feel about it? Tons of those all the time. Yeah. Going to the library, what do we want to study this week? We'll go to the library. We'll get out, 30 books on these subjects that the kids wanna, pursue interests in.

Timmy Eaton 36:13

Cool.

Jon Couch 36:14

And it could be anything from dinosaurs to astronomy to geology and like. Anything. Yeah, we did about three weeks straight where we were just talking about power generation, Nuclear wind, solar, like

Timmy Eaton 36:28

I know that's my favorite. When the kids are getting into something with Sara and then we kind of make it a family thing for a while, like I love getting onto things. Yesterday we were able to go to a, we've never been there and the, in the many years that we've lived in this area, we've never been to head smashed in Buffalo Jump and we went and it was awesome, dude. I was like, why did we wait this long? And I hope that we talk about that for a while, but that would be an example I was gonna ask you with all that is going on, I mean six kids between two to 15, that's a load man. Like that's a hard thing. And so when Angela is like feeling kind of like overwhelmed. And as the principal homeschool parent, I know that you're very involved. Do you have something that you guys do like consciously to help her be able to fill her bucket and replenish? Is there something in place either just naturally or it's something decided that you guys have discussed to be like, okay, when, when I'm feeling like this, I need this or that, what do you do to help her fill her bucket?

Jon Couch 37:21

How to explain this. It's equal parts, spontaneous and intentional. And this comes back to the spontaneous part, comes back to how ridiculous it is that I am able to be home and present. Because working from home, I was not able to be present. So now I am able to be home and present at the drop of a hat. Like the entrepreneur

Timmy Eaton 37:45

lifestyle? Is that what you mean?

Jon Couch 37:46

Yes. Yes. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Oh. If you are able to control your own destiny, do it. Because I'm able to be home and present Angela isn't getting overwhelmed often. And when she does, it's usually because she's taken on something additional.

Timmy Eaton 38:10

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 38:10

I mentioned she's an author. If she has a a contract deadline, she needs to get a manuscript out. That's tons of work.

Timmy Eaton 38:20

Yeah.

Jon Couch 38:20

So when she's getting overwhelmed, it's usually because she's taken on something extra. And in those moments partly I'm around. I can see it coming. So it's easy for me to sit her down, have the conversation, how are you doing? What can I pick up that you need to put down? And from day to day, it can change. one day she's doing fine. The next day she needs to go somewhere for six or eight hours and just be alone. Feel like she gets something done and come back to, whatever the situation happens to be after, dad's in charge. But, there's times that we can predict that things are gonna get busy and. Because I'm able to be around, it's actually kind of easy to pivot and handle the needs of the day.

Timmy Eaton 39:23

And nobody does this stuff perfectly, but like just working together to get it done. But if I was talking to Angela right now and she was being like, completely honest without any kind of, holding back and I said, Hey, do you feel like when you talk to John, he can kind of discern when he needs to listen without giving any kind of response and when he needs to listen to actually. take care of business and do something about it. You know what I'm saying? And this is true in all marriages, but like, especially when it comes to the homeschool context, is there a time where it is just like she just wants to vent to you and just wants you to listen without, coming back with solutions? Would she say that you know the difference between when you need to come with solutions and when you just need to go? I love you.

Jon Couch 40:05

That's actually not a hard question believe it or not when we were first married Angela ended up getting pregnant within the first few weeks. so I went from being, the single guy to having a pregnant wife. It felt like overnight.

Timmy Eaton 40:21

Yeah.

Jon Couch 40:22

And she was emotional. She could not hide anything. She could not bottle up anything. If she tried to not say it and pretend that everything was fine, she would just start crying. Like she wouldn't be able to hide it.

Timmy Eaton 40:36

Yeah.

Jon Couch 40:36

So that prompted a lot of conversations early on that set a pattern where. If there's something that needs to be said, we're gonna say it. We're not gonna, pretend it doesn't exist. Head in the sand doesn't exist here.

Timmy Eaton 40:55

Mm-hmm.

Jon Couch 40:56

If anybody bottles stuff up, it's me mostly because I just, I don't pay attention to what I'm feeling until I. two or three, 10 years later, like, yeah, I thought it wasn't a big deal, but I guess it was. So when it comes to, conversations where, she needs to just let it out we talk all the time and she is very, very good about telling me when she needs me to do something.

Timmy Eaton 41:26

So like,

Jon Couch 41:27

she'll say

Timmy Eaton 41:27

like, Hey, I want actual solutions right now. Or, Hey, I don't want you to say anything, I just wanna talk to you.

Jon Couch 41:32

It's not so much, I don't want you to say anything, I just wanna talk. It's this is happening in my life and I need something to change. Whether it be, she needs me to be more present. Or if there's a frustration and it's a, a physical change, like we need to, I don't know, get different appliances or remodel the kitchen or like, there's some sort of annoyance that's too annoying to deal with and we need to actually change it.

Timmy Eaton 42:07

Yeah.

Jon Couch 42:07

Whether it's, an interpersonal thing that we need to change how we interact with, such and such friend. She's very good about telling me that I need to do something and I have learned by virtue of having eight sisters and a mother that unless. She tells me that she needs me to do something. I will listen and silently assess whether there's something I can do and I say silently because in my experience, women want their feelings validated. They want to be heard. They want. In a lot of cases to be understood. They want to be able to share that mental, emotional load. Men want to fix things. There's many times that my wife has shared something with me that I'm thinking in the back of my head, well, why don't we just fix it? Do this or that. Yeah, yeah. Why don't we just fix it? That's not what she needs to hear. That's what I need to hear. So she will tell me what's going on and I will quietly make plans to adjust either my behavior or, kids' behaviors or living physical situation somehow so that that. Emotional baggage that my wife has been carrying around doesn't need to be carried or at least gets lighter. So I try not only to validate my wife constantly, but also actively work so that her life gets easier, whether she realizes that I'm working that way.

Timmy Eaton 43:58

Yeah.

Jon Couch 43:59

And hopefully, if I'm doing my job right, she doesn't realize it at all. Yeah. It's just, oh, this used be a problem. It's.

Timmy Eaton 44:06

Good.

Jon Couch 44:06

You're welcome.

Timmy Eaton 44:07

The last thing I wanted to ask was when you think of like your, journey as a homeschool father from the time you guys decided to do it, what would you say has been the most challenging or you could say the worst part, whatever you want, like the most challenging part about being a homeschool father, and then what's the most rewarding or like what you value the most as being a homeschool father?

Jon Couch 44:24

The most challenging part, I guess, would be my ingrained preconceived notions that my kids need to be actively working on school. Because when I come upstairs and, everybody's been called together, it's time to do school, and I come in five minutes later and it looks like nobody's done anything. Like I get tense, like, come on guys. And the most challenging for me would be letting go of that expectation that when it's time to do school, you're sitting at the desk with a pen and paper in hand, and you're grinding away on it until it's done. That expectation has not been helpful, so letting go of that. Absolutely required.

Timmy Eaton 45:12

I'm wondering if what you were experiencing and what I've experienced too, is just the long slow process of deschooling.

Jon Couch 45:19

It probably is letting go of that expectation of, structure, rigid formality and trying to foster a culture where learning happens all the time, everywhere at the drop of a hat. Yeah. So that was my biggest challenge.

Timmy Eaton 45:36

Yeah.

Jon Couch 45:37

The biggest joy has been to watch my children. Actually absorb what I'm trying to impart to them. When my son comes back to me with an observation that shows that he is actually been thinking about it and, when he opens his mouth, what comes out is very often pure gold. He's such a good kid and all my kids are, and the biggest joy is just to actually be able to be around and see those moments happen as the understanding floods and, and my hopes and dreams for my children. Become a reality.

Timmy Eaton 46:27

Yeah, it happens right there before you

Jon Couch 46:30

Yeah. And I get to see it. It's not like this movie where, some, fairy wand and suddenly they're grown up and well adjusted adults. Like, no, I get to have an active participant role in. Turning my kids into well adjusted functional adults like, yeah. I keep telling my kids that I'm not trying to raise children. I'm trying to train adults. That's what I want. I don't want children, I want adults. Well, and

Timmy Eaton 47:01

that observation from a lot of homeschool parents is that instead of a teacher or somebody else, like, and it's cool that they, can see that growth in our kids. And communities help to raise our children. But like you said, you get to behold those moments a lot. And your wife Definitely.

Jon Couch 47:14

Yeah. I'm, I'm not outsourcing my kids' development. Like I get to hold those moments. Yeah. Like tho those are my moments. I'm their father. Those are mine.

Timmy Eaton 47:23

Well, brother, I'll give you the last word thank you for taking time. I'll give you the last word and then we'll wrap this up.

Jon Couch 47:29

I guess my last word would be if anybody is even. Interested in homeschooling. Look into it. There's a lot of good literature out there. You're not gonna go wrong listening to Tim and give it a try. Give it an honest shot. It is not as hard as some people make it out to be. You are not going to damage your kids by giving them time. Come into themselves before they go out into the world. And you can do it. You can do it.

Timmy Eaton 48:07

So good, man. So good. Thank you very much you guys. This was John Couch. Thank you for taking time, brother.

Jon Couch 48:13

Thank you, Tim.

Timmy Eaton 48:16

Well, that wraps up another edition of this Golden Hour podcast. Thanks for hanging out for the entire episode. Make sure you check out our website@thisgoldenhour.org where you can find our podcast archives and you can register for the free web class. To help homeschool dads every Thursday at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time, and you homeschool dads can also sign up for the Proactive Homeschool Dad or PhD course on the website. If you haven't done so already, please take a minute and give us a review. An apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you very much. Please consider sharing this show with friends and family members that you think would get something out of it. And thank you for your support. I'm your host, Tim Eaton. Until next time, remember to cherish this golden hour with your children and family.