Catching Healing Waves with Annie Schuessler-Zam

In this episode, Wil Fisher sits down with Annie Schuessler-Zam, a trauma healer who uses Brainspotting and Parts Work to help people release stuck emotional pain. Annie was a licensed psychotherapist for 20 years and now works outside of the medical model. She also runs workshops for folks who are estranged from a parent and want to create their most beautiful and meaningful lives, and she’s the host of Rebel Therapist, a podcast devoted to healers doing their own personal work.

Together, they explore:

• Parts Work / IFS as an invitation to create enough inner safety for our younger “exiled” parts to come forward with their messages.
• Attachment wounds, tenderness, and what it’s like when insecurity shows up in close relationships—and why that can actually be a sign of healing.
• The difference between soothing a part versus accidentally silencing it with quick “you’re fine” band-aids.
• Disclosure + discernment: how to know what to share, why you’re sharing it, and how to stay resourced when feedback isn’t gentle.
• The myth that healers should have it all together—and why it’s actually a red flag when a healer isn’t doing their own work.
• “Healing waves”: why the work doesn’t really end, but our capacity to ride it can deepen over time.
• Estrangement in queer communities: finding your place on the estrangement continuum with integrity and self-trust.
• A practical framework for boundaries: choosing the level of contact that allows you to have your best relationship with yourself and the people you love.
• Chosen family, grief, and the complex emotions that can arise when an estranged parent dies.
• Compassion and boundaries: how forgiveness and love don’t require continued access or self-sacrifice.

Connect with Annie:

• Website: https://anniezam.com/
  
  
• Wil’s interview on Annie's podcast Rebel Therapist: https://anniezam.com/podcast/256
  
  

Connect with Wil:

• Website: https://www.wil-fullyliving.com
  
  
• Awakened Hearts for Single Gay Men retreat: https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/singles
  
  
• Instagram: @wilfish99

Transcript

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Wil Fisher  
Hello Annie, and welcome to queerly Beloved. So happy to have you here. I'm so delighted, so excited. So as you know, I was on your podcast last week, and it was so fun to have the tables turned and for you to ask me the drag avatar question, What a delightful surprise. And so I imagine it's not a huge surprise to you that I'm going to start with that question, which is, tell me who you are in this moment. Maybe take a moment to breathe into that and tell me by describing a drag avatar that embodies that.

AnnieZ  
Okay, so

last time I went mask, but this time getting some femme energy,

and she's like, about 100 years old, and has Like, crackling red hair, and she's kind of floating and she's like, kind of floating over a forest, and she's, she has got a very sort of, like, if you know who Bonnie rate is, like, kind of a body rate, wink and giggle, hmm. So, yeah, beautiful.

Wil Fisher  
She sounds fiery. Yeah, cool. Welcome. Yeah, and for me today, you know I was telling you before we hit record, that I've been really embracing warmth and coziness and what, what was coming through as soon as I asked you, was this image of this Yeah, I'm I'm feeling This elderly female vibe too, yeah, and she is shrouded. She just has like layer after layer of like blankets and scarves, and they all complement each other in beautiful, interesting and comfortable and soft textures that are different and layered and and different colors, mostly in the darker scheme of things, so dark blues and dark greens and some black. And she is so protected and also serves as a protector. Like she's she's there ready to, to offer a blanket, to hold those who need holding. And, yeah, there's, there's something like strong and mysterious about her and her presence. And that's, that's who I'm vibing with today.

AnnieZ  
I love how well these two obviously dig each other too.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, yeah. They're really happy to hang out. They're happy to hang out. Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious to hear about this moment. Now I'm curious to hear, as this healer who has conversations with other healers about healing, I'm curious to hear about your healing path, and maybe we could, we could start from now, but if it feels more comfortable. We could talk about the beginnings of your your healing, I know for me, yeah, this healing path is a, is a, is one that just carries on and carries on and we just peel it, keep peeling back layers of the onions, and just when we think we've gotten to the last layer, there's another one. So yeah, I'd love to hear about your onion. Thank you.

AnnieZ  
Okay, so I'm feeling like starting with now feels good as like a an entry point, and then going back from there a little bit awesome. So at this point, I'm in therapy with an internal family systems practitioner. And it's not actually therapy, because we're not she's not working with a life. Sense, which is the same, same thing that I do now, but so I'm in internal family systems work. And I gotta say, like internal family systems. I really resisted it. I was not into for one thing, following the model of, like, one more straight white man. Just like, no, that's for y'all. I don't, I don't need another another model. Like, I've already learned a lot of models, but then, as I've gotten more and more exposed to ifs through, like, it started with some of the psychedelic journeys I was on. Some of the people in those groups with me were using a lot of ifs in our journeys. I kind of got more and more drawn to it. And so for me just to say what ifs is from my point of view, like I don't teach it. So this will just be my perspective on it. Is this modality where we're getting to know our parts so like all the parts of us, and what I'm really loving about it is that the parts of me that kind of have been holding different burdens, like shame or terror or, you know, rage, that these parts that started holding these things very young were just sort of, I mean, they call it exiled in ifs. And they really were. They were just kind of pushed down, holding this pain as I went through my life, managing just fine. You know, doing really well from like it would look from the outside, like doing really well. And so I just love this invitation to create enough safety for these little ones to let them start bringing their messages up, let them start healing and letting the whole system begin to take care of them so that they don't have to hold those burdens anymore. And so, like I was telling you right before we hit record, like I'm actually in the middle of one of those exiles coming up and getting healed, and it's been in this state for a few weeks now where she's really present with me. And so that's been so beautiful, and she's one who feels unsafe, like she feels insecure and unsafe in close relationships. So it's like attachment wound stuff that she's been holding since at least age four. And so there's a there are other parts of me that are like, Oh my god, this is difficult. Like, this is painful. Can we go back to not feeling this quite so much? But then I'm also having a lot of gratitude and kind of reminding myself moment to moment when I feel that insecurity coming up, I'm also remembering like this is such a beautiful opportunity give this Little one the attention, the space, the just unconditional acceptance that she needs. And so it's like, very tender and and very sweet. And then it also, yeah, it's also painful, because I'm feeling her pain in a way that like I I hadn't fully so that's kind of been the last few weeks and and there have been other little ones, like other exiles, that I've discovered and been able to really unburden, have been able to create enough safety that, like I had one, that was she believed that she was too much. So, you know, she got that message very young. Like a lot of my exiles seem to be around four years old, some of them a bit younger. So this one was probably around four years old, and she just had absorbed this idea that she was too much, and that was a way that she explained things going wrong, like a way that she explained some of her needs got not getting met. Mm. And I could viscerally feel as I was working through this with my healer and we were unburdening her, I could viscerally feel that letting go. And so now when I look back at stories where I know I used to feel like, Oh, I was too much. I was too much like I was too emotional or too sensitive or too needy. I look back at those stories and they feel more like stories. They don't feel I don't get that same internal shame or clench or freeze reaction. I can just like, look at the story and feel like, oh, a little one didn't have what she needed in that moment, but it's like the charge is gone. So I know that there's that potential with this one too, which is amazing. And so as I'm talking to you, I'm actually feeling like, Oh, that's really lovely. So yeah, that's that's what my healing looks like at this moment. And sometimes it's also like sharing it with my friends, because that can also feel like a way to, like bring them in and have it be less of such a internal experience only, but also kind of bring in, like the love and attention from people who I know, really know me and really love me, and so that can be just like this extra healing part of it, and it feels good to be sharing it with you right now, Like it feels very kind of D shaming to just talk about, like, attachment wounds in Not, not in terms of, like, I'm an expert on attachment and so this is the attachment style and, you know, but really, like, yeah, This stuff, you can feel it from the inside. Hmm?

Wil Fisher  
It, yeah, and something I appreciate about that story and about your approach is this sensitivity and this mindfulness. Is self awareness, to to feel it, to to listen, to get curious, and I think that it can be challenging for folks to do this kind of parts work, or do any of this healing work, because we're so quick to try to, like, put the band aid on it. We hear the insecure thoughts, and we try to overpower them with like, no, you're fine. Everything's fine, you know, yeah, and that's not what that part needs. That's what has been happening for that part to keep going under the radar, because they've been told that their voice or their ideas or their concerns aren't legit. And so the opposite is welcoming, that getting curious about that voice, being with that voice. And it seems contradictory. It seems like backwards in some ways, when you're not aware of this process of really being with that part of ourselves and getting curious and seeing what it is that they need. And it's, it's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting to hear, hear that. And what I've noticed is that when I'm doing my parts work, I've been doing it sometimes from this proactive place of like, okay, parts, come on, get in bed. Let's let's cuddle. I want to tell you how great you are. I want to just and it's sweet, you know, this morning, actually, I was just like holding myself, holding my inner child, and just telling them how great they are, how perfect and beautiful and brilliant they are. And there's value to that too. And I don't know if all the parts are jumping into the bed, you know, some of the beds, some of those parts are hiding. And so how can what I'm what I'm invited into, in what you just shared is, yeah, is increasing my listening for those parts and increasing my openness to some of these more challenging thoughts and energies and emotions and using those as opportunities to open the door for healing and integration.

AnnieZ  
Yeah, I love that.

Wil Fisher  
And then I want to get into disclosure, because we were chatting a little bit about that right before I hit record. And so I also appreciate you sharing that it's been helpful for you to talk to friends about this and to. Talk to me about it right now, and, yeah, it's been interesting for me to be sharing more on social media and to be doing more podcast interviews and to share about my journey, and to ask that question like, is this serving me? Is this serving me to share on this sometimes large level where I don't know how many people are going to hear this and and this fear was coming up around, is it taking away the sacredness of the work? Is it? Is it making me vulnerable, or is it setting me up for folks to advise me in ways that aren't helpful, and so I'm just curious to hear any of your thoughts around disclosure, perhaps that thoughts that you've shared with clients who are navigating that, or how you've navigated it personally?

AnnieZ  
Yeah, I I've had something happen recently that really brought this up for me, and had me working through this from another angle. So I in my email newsletter, I share really vulnerably, and I've been doing it for just like, the last four or five months, I've been getting really personal there, and I wrote a very personal email about finding my own therapist and how difficult it was. I was a therapist for 20 years myself, and now I'm working not in the medical model, and I've helped a lot of therapists. And so there was this way that I was like, Wil also, like, I'm a 53 year old bitch with, like, so much life history. I was like, who can hold me? Like, who, you know, like, who can really be that big enough person who, you know, will check all the boxes in terms of my life experience and and I really want to be held by someone through this healing process right now. So I was, I was writing about my journey with that and having found someone who's a really great fit for me right now, and and really writing about how painful it was to like, get vulnerable enough to do that. And then I got a response from someone. Most people who responded were just lovely, like, thanks for sharing this. I've gone through similar stuff, but one person wrote me back and said basically, like you, you're you're crazy, like you, long story short, you're Crazy and you are making it that the problem is other people, but really the problem is you, and you're not going to like this therapist either, and, you know, this whole thing. And so I read it, and I was kind of like, ooh. Felt like a kick in the gut. And then I sat with it, and I, you know, I felt my feelings about it like hurt and exposed, and then I really thought about Okay, so why have I been doing I mean, I had known why I was doing it in the first place, was that I feel like healers are so often kind of hiding our own journeys, and we feel like we're supposed to look like we have it all together, so that people feel like they can hire us, or they can trust us. And there's this old idea of like the blank slate you got to show up as this blank slate, so that your client can just project things onto you, all kinds of bullshit. And I've really come to feel like so many therapists and healers burn out, and part of that is because we are not getting our own help, and we're sometimes not being honest about the fact that we need help, and we're holding so much, and so for me, talking to therapists and healers and just anybody about how therapists and healers are totally also clients, and also, you know, doing our own psychedelic journeys and finding our own healing, that that's A way I want to serve now, including sharing my stuff. And so it kind of helped me look at all right. I got that email that felt to me kind of shaming and hurtful, and so it gave me this opportunity to feel that like what. Got stirred up here, what parts of me feel like they can't handle getting criticized? And then I got to do some healing work with those parts to feel clear on what they needed, and and I it kind of helped me double down on like, Yes, I do want to share really personally, just for people who want to hear it like, just for people who it's serving. And that is, like, my lane right now. And so with the even though that's sort of the thing that can feel most upsetting is disclosing and then having somebody be really shaming. I found okay. I don't think I really have to be afraid about that anymore. I feel like I can really take care of myself if that happens, and I can feel really clear about why I'm sharing what I'm sharing?

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that perspective, and it makes a lot of sense, and it feels very helpful when I think about that discernment process of determining what to disclose, and when I think that the it begins with intentionality. What is the purpose? Why am I sharing this, you know, to what end, and making sure that that feels pure and that feels in the, you know, in a moving towards something good and positive for myself and for those who are receiving the sharing, and then to also consider the repercussions. Can I handle it if I get unsolicited advice, I'm not sharing this to receive advice, necessarily, but sometimes people might think that that is what the intention is. And if you give me unsolicited advice or feedback. Can I handle that? And I love that in your experience, you were able to see the new possibilities for healing in that that, you know sounds like not very tactful feedback. So yeah, that's beautiful. And I think it is about making sure that you're in a place where that's possible, right? So like the day after an Ayahuasca ceremony where your heart is cracked open and you're still processing and integrating, and then you share it all on social media, and then you receive stuff, and it's like that could be really damaging to our process. And so just really checking in and being mindful that there isn't a right answer. There isn't like a Oh, it needs to be three days after this, and it needs to be this much personal info, and there's not a right way to do it or a wrong way to do it. But mindfulness is the key to that framework. And the other thing I want to comment on is how much I appreciate the work you're doing to shift this paradigm from the old idea that a healer who is in therapy or doing healing work is a red flag because they haven't healed themselves. So why should I receive healing from them to it's a red flag if they're not, in my personal opinion, yeah, not doing any work, if they're not in this journey towards healing and soul evolution. I mean, maybe there's some who've really reached a pinnacle point. And of course, there's waves of it, like I take some breaks periodically, but even then, I'm still doing work between receiving support from others or from medicines. So yeah, I just I really appreciate that, and I think it's such an important message for folks who are seeking support to be aware of. You know,

AnnieZ  
yeah, that's been my experience too, that it doesn't and but it goes in waves. And I had a friend who's not a healer recently say, like, could we, like, at some point, like, do we get to stop all this healing and just kind of live with what we've got for a while and like, bless her heart, I think she's like, in the middle of some healing, so she's probably trying to just look forward to the end of those ways, sure. But I was like, I really thought about it, and I was like, you know, I think as long as I'm choosing to be a healer, I think I probably, my guess is that I'll just keep going into new areas. I heard the astrologer Jessica lignato talking about this recently and saying, like, you kind of. To keep healing during your whole life, and you just get to decide what level you go to, but like, it's not that it's ever going to end, and it's not that it ever necessarily gets all that much easier. It's just you're always kind of either living with the suppression of what's next, or you're living with the challenge of what you're embracing in healing. And so for me, it's, it's not, I'm not judging people who choose like, you know what? I'm just gonna sit this one out. I am not interested in healing right now. I get it and and I also think, like, for me, because I'm a healer, it feels important to kind of like, catch keep catching waves.

Wil Fisher  
Keep catching waves. I love that, and I would agree that it doesn't necessarily get easier, but I feel like my system gets more accustomed to it. My system understands what I'm doing, and my system understands that that wil from past experience, this isn't going to last forever, that I am going to move through this, and that there is value to this, that there is some positive aspect of this process that I'm moving through, and I also want to acknowledge that even in these healing processes, for me, typically, it's not consuming my every waking moment. And so also being able to recognize that, yeah, we're typically always in healing processes, if we so choose to be in them, and we can enjoy our life while we're also totally through stuff. And honestly, it can be really fun and interesting too. I mean, the process is, like, fascinating. It's like, why not focus on that as we spend this time on this planet in this body, you know, yeah,

AnnieZ  
and there's always so much to learn. And like, I'm, yeah, I do feel, I know I sound like maybe a Pollyanna in this but like, I do feel really, like, interested in what's next, like I wouldn't have expected a few years ago, I get my first, like, structured, guided, psychedelic journey, which was in January 2023 I do have quite kind of like a before and after sense of my life from that, yeah, so like, the things I'm saying to you now I would not have been saying in 2022 like, I I definitely was much more like, you know, I've done a lot of therapy. I'm good. I think I'm just gonna hang out here. And so it was through having that portal opened and seeing that more healing actually was possible that, you know, that I've jumped on to, like, No, I'm gonna stick with this. I'm gonna ride these waves as far as they can take me. Yeah, that's so

Wil Fisher  
fabulous, too. You know, you mentioned that you're, you're 53 that you, you know, just a few years back have this turning point too. To me, it's just so exciting that we as humans always have this potential for further evolution. So I just love that. So yeah, I'd love to to talk a little bit about estrangement, because I know a big part of your journey, and I know that it's a big part of you know this is this podcast is queerly Beloved. There's a lot of queer folks who listen to this podcast, and a lot of queer folks have had that experience. And so I'd love for you to share what you feel called to share about that for you personally and for folks, maybe you support in that experience. Yeah.

AnnieZ  
So I am estranged from one of my parents, and for me, that journey has always been really tied to my queerness in that so now I'm no contact with this parent, but like for years and years, like so many folks who are estranged from a parent, I kind of was on and off having contact and then not having contact, probably from the time I was I would say, like 1819, and as like a new queer at that age, what I noticed was I would meet queer folks, many of them older than me, and I found like estrangement was very. Common in the queer community, and sometimes it was because of homophobia or transphobia, but sometimes, like in my case, it didn't have anything to do with that, but because queers have kind of been forced to create this beautiful community, including chosen family, and including like self definition. I found that with queer folks, there was all this understanding and there was all this curiosity and just really taking each other seriously around what kinds of relationships we form with our family of origin and what kinds of relationships we don't and just no judgment there. I just kept meeting people who had their own stories and had nothing but respect and curiosity for my story, and I really tried so many different things with my parent in terms of low contact, trying to work things out, trying to take a break and everything in between. And then it was actually in that psychedelic journey, finally, at age 50, that I got clear that for me, at least for the foreseeable future, that just stopping putting effort into that relationship and letting it be estranged was going to bring me a lot more Peace and a lot more opportunity for healing. And you know, like, they say, in a psychedelic journey, they say, like, don't make any decisions in the first 72 hours. But it was just very clear, and then from that point, I was able to just continue moving forward with that decision. And what I've noticed with a lot of folks who I'm either friends with or tons of clients I've worked with, is that there's a piece of permission to find the level on the estrangement continuum that's right for them. There's like this piece of permission that's really important. And a lot of times, we get held back by making the decision that's right for us, because we're worried about judgment, or we're worried about guilt, we're worried about all of these things, all of these consequences to making the right decision for us. So I've really, I'm really just loving helping people find their spot on the continuum that feels like it's in integrity with themselves, and that isn't about what folks on the outside think is right or wil but will give permission for but to really help folks to find their own permission for what they sense is going to help them heal.

Wil Fisher  
And what do you think are the main factors for folks in coming to that choice for themselves. What? What are the considerations to know if this is a relationship that I want to try to heal or try to work with, you know, is this relationship even in its challenges? Is it for me? Is it helpful for me in some way, or is this just not and I need to create that boundary. Yeah.

AnnieZ  
So what I usually find, and I know this was true for me, is that most of us want to try everything first, and I think that's beautiful. If someone doesn't need to do that, that's beautiful too. Sometimes it's just clear. But I think for most of us, we really want to try everything first, because we're just wired to be connected to the people who raised us, if it's possible. So even without needing any advice from me, I find people wil try different levels of contact. They'll try different boundaries out. They'll try taking a break and coming back, sure. So those things kind of happen naturally and and then when someone's considering, well, where on this continuum should I be? The things that I really like to think about are we'll wear on the continuum for right now, because you can always change your mind. If the parent is open to it, you can always change your mind. But like, where on the continuum right now do you find that you can have your best relationship with yourself and with the people who you really love and want to have in your life? So maybe if you're a parent like. We're on that continuum with your parent. Do you find that you can be most available to your kids? Or where do you find you can be most available to like if you have a partner where you're able to be vulnerable and be in that kind of intimacy with your beloved and noticing if there's a way that maybe having too much contact with your parent tends to have you shut down in the rest of your life, then try nudging it over to less contact.

Wil Fisher  
Beautiful, yeah, that's so practical and clear. And the word that comes up for me, when you describe that is self sacrificing, it's like, how much of yourself and your relationships are you willing to sacrifice to make this effort and and to just be real about that. And I, I, you know, have a history of self sacrificing. For my birth family from when I was a child and there was alcoholism and drug addiction and I was people pleasing and overachieving, and things have shifted. My mom's in recovery, and there's ways that I am in a different situation than that now, and yet I still need to keep looking at that pattern and being cautious of it and remembering not to take over responsibility, remembering that I get to choose how much care and attention and support I offer my parents, and so it's something especially as they're getting older. You know, my mom's not dealing with Parkinson's. It's like, okay, I can help, and I have a life remembering the boundaries that work for me. So yeah, it's interesting, even when we're not talking about full estrangement, it is about boundaries with our caretakers. How do we navigate that? How do we find what is right for us? And I think that your framework is really helpful for that.

AnnieZ  
Yeah, sometimes it can be so tricky, too. If the boundaries that are right for you or like I'll use myself as an example, let's say the boundaries that are right for me might be like to be cordial with a parent, but not to be kind of in each other's daily life, or not, to be sharing certain things about myself. You know, if we're going to spend time together to limit it like maybe I figure out that's going to be ideal for me. But then, what if my parent feels so rejected and wounded by that that they kind of can't tolerate that level of boundary. So sometimes people end up more estranged, because when they hold the boundary that's right for them, the parent just can't tolerate it interesting. So it can be really complicated to, you know, to navigate that process.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, thank you for sharing that piece that it's complicated. Family dynamics are so complicated. And what are some of your thoughts on like chosen family and the way that queers find ways to belong outside of their their bloodline sometimes. Have you seen that that and have you seen that work? Have you seen that not work so well? Yeah.

AnnieZ  
I mean, it definitely has worked for me. Like, I've got two close friends who I've been friends with for 30 years, and I never would have thought I'd be able to say that like I'm so proud of that. And then, you know other friends who I've been friends with for 20 or more years, and it feels like with chosen family, I'll speak from my own experience, it's felt like sometimes it's tricky to believe in that chosen family bond when you've had, like, attachment wounds and when you've had things go wrong. I know that for me, I have had moments where I doubted. Like, yeah, I feel like we're family, but are we really family? Like, are they really gonna stick by me? And so it's for me personally, it's there's been parts of me who've been kind of afraid or hesitant to really believe in frozen in Frozen family, in chosen family, family. Yeah. And And yet, for me, I've also found the closest people to me in my life, besides my partner kids, are those friends and that chosen family. I've also noticed there's this, like most of my friends and I are in our 50s, and I've noticed, like, as some of my friends, parents have died recently, and some of those folks were relatively estranged from those parents, there's been a very painful grief process to to have a parent die who you really weren't that close to and like to have to go through that very complex process of letting go of this person and also grieving what you wish that relationship had been, and maybe even in sometimes feeling this combination of Like anger and sadness in letting go of that person. And I've also been really moved seeing that those folks have leaned on their chosen family in going through that grief, even if, because they were relatively estranged, we didn't get to know their parents very well. So we're holding them through this grief process, and it's there's a way that they're they're also kind of feeling like they're having to hold who that parent was by themselves. And so it feels like there's some just really sad but beautiful connection between like going through that grief and also having chosen family to lean on through it.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, beautiful. So it's really touching to hear you share about how you and your friends support each other in those ways. And yeah, what it what it reminds me of is hearing stories of folks connecting with dead ancestors, maybe through near death experiences, or maybe in psychedelic experiences. And I've heard some stories of queer folks connecting with past family members who did hold these homophobic beliefs and had caused harm in that way, and in these experiences, once they've they're on the other side, and they're seeing through a spiritual lens, seeing through the eyes of love, they're able to come back and express regret and apologize, and folks who've been able to receive great healings from past relatives on the other side and and I'm not saying that that has to happen for for all folks who have these challenging relationships, but I've heard of really great healing in that's possible in some of these experiences.

AnnieZ  
I love that, and it makes so much sense, doesn't it? Wil like the second, the millisecond that someone goes to the other side. Of course, they're like, oh shit, oh, shit, I got this wrong. Oh, like, I want to come from love. I want to come from Sacred care of my descendant and their beautiful queerness, like, of course. So, yeah, that makes sense. I also feel like, so this is more about the estrangement than the chosen family piece. But I also feel like for me, I found some healing in with the parent who I'm not in touch with, I've found kind of organically, it wasn't something I was seeking out, but organically, I found this very young version of that parent from like, way before I existed and was able to like, feel that person's heart and really love and connect with that Little being unconditionally. And that's felt very healing. So sometimes I'll just like, let myself float into that awareness of just loving who this person was when they started out.

Wil Fisher  
I love that. Yeah, I love that again. That's a seeing through the eyes of love kind of exercise, and to recognize that who folks have become isn't necessarily who they are, yeah, and maybe even to think about the child version of this person who is who's now not someone that you want to connect with, but to love, that the inner child of them. Yeah, a process that's been helpful for me with family dynamics was the whole pono, pono, 111, week, I felt called to use that, that prayer, that meditation, the I'm sorry, please forgive me. Thank you. I love you. Yeah, with each of my family members. And so each day that week, I would choose one of the family members and be in that mantra until, until something would would break free. And yeah, that was a very powerful experience and tool for me. To choose to forgive, you know, choose to forgive and ask for forgiveness, regardless of where they were at in that equation. You know, are they seeking forgiveness? Are they are they receiving my forgiveness? It wasn't about that relational dynamic, even though it was, but for me, it was, how can I do this for myself?

AnnieZ  
Yeah, yeah. And, like, kind of let your energy be free,

Wil Fisher  
yeah, exactly, yeah. And I think it's, it's a powerful reminder that we can find healing in these relationships, regardless of what they're available for, that we have the power to heal and to shift that energy, even if they are going to be stuck in whatever ways They're stuck in and unavailable. Yeah, yeah.

AnnieZ  
And so often, what they're stuck in might be something that isn't really theirs either, like, it's something that got put on them at some point. You know, so often, like, that's something I don't want to say always, to leave things open for learning new things, but so often it's something that like a burden they took on when they were a kid or at some age and and me not holding it with them. It doesn't always even mean that I'm blaming them for it. It can be something that I'd like to just set my energy free from, and hopefully that could even aid in the energy being sent to them, where, if they're available to heal it, they can heal it. They can send it kind of down the line.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, that's such an important reminder that we can have compassion and choose forgiveness and hold a boundary. Those things are mutually exclusive,

AnnieZ  
yeah, yeah, and there are a lot of us who part of the estrangement is going to depend on what happens with that parent. So not always. Some people, and you know, totally get it, no matter what their parent does, they're going to be like, Yeah, I've had enough for this lifetime. Totally fair. But for a lot of people, who I know, if their parent were to do more healing and were to show up and say, like, Hey, I'm here to listen and and I'm thinking about my impact on you. So many people I know would be totally open to reconnecting. In that case,

Wil Fisher  
yeah, just like we were saying, you know, at 50, you had a major shifting point. Like people can have major shifting points all throughout their lives. And I always like to remind folks often when they're getting out of a romantic relationship, to remind folks that they're still in relationship with that person, and they will be until the day they die, or even after that. And so it's just the relationship is in a different dynamic, and it's possible that that person will shift and change and they'll be with them again, or it's possible that it will shift into a friendship, or it's possible that they won't speak with them again. But we're always in relationship with these people in our lives in some way to just be mindful of what dynamic we are choosing to nourish and to nurture in those relationships

AnnieZ  
and queers are the best at X's Right? Like, Oh yeah, gold medal. Like, not that. I mean, I'm not friends with all of my exes actively, but like fondness and definitely friends with some of them. Yeah. What's your experience been around? Like, do you have exes who are chosen family, or any of that in your

Wil Fisher  
own life? Yeah, yeah, and I love that for us. I love that for queers. And certainly I do have exes that I'm close with. And I remember, in particular, an ex when I was living in New York City. I became very close with him and his new partner, and I remember them helping me through a breakup, and I spent so much time, it was like the three of us hung out all the time, and there was no jealousy, there was no suspicions. It was just this loving nest of nourishment and support. And yeah, I feel like it's so special that that folks, and I'd say queer folks especially, but all folks have that possibility, but that folks can find those unique expressions of love regardless of history.

AnnieZ  
I love that. And even because of history, right? Like someone just like loving the hell out of you because they know you at your best and worst,

Wil Fisher  
that's it. Yeah. Oh, well, this conversation has been so beautiful, and I'm so grateful that we've gotten to cover a lot of the things that I really wanted to there were a couple others, but maybe we can do it again. But yeah, as we wrap up any any final thoughts, you feel called to share with listeners. No pressure.

AnnieZ  
Yeah, I think I'm feeling called to just invite folks to that exploration around all of your relationships, that exploration of like at this moment, where do I notice I'm kind of at my best? Like, with what, what boundaries and what kind of connection with each person is feeling really true and right and allowing me to be the most me right now?

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, such a valuable and powerful invitation. Thank you, and thank you for sharing all your wisdom and insights and for the good work you do in the world. Thank you.

AnnieZ  
Thank you so much. I've really loved getting to know you. Me too. Bye.

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