While it may seem like some people always land on their feet, in reality, everyone’s career path has unexpected twists, turns, and the occasional dead end. Carly Ayres, now working on UX Community & Culture at Google, has plenty of titles under her belt (designer at Creative Mornings, author at CommunicationArts, co-founder of Hawraf, to name a few) but her journey as a creative began with a drive to explore the unknown and lean into learning, wherever the opportunity presented itself.
While it may seem like some people always land on their feet, in reality, everyone’s career path has unexpected twists, turns, and the occasional dead end. Carly Ayres, now working on UX Community & Culture at Google, has plenty of titles under her belt (designer at Creative Mornings, author at CommunicationArts, co-founder of Hawraf, to name a few) but her journey as a creative began with a drive to explore the unknown and lean into learning, wherever the opportunity presented itself.
I used to call myself a specialist generalist or a generalist specialist generally specializing in blank, blank, blank blank, I'd like fill in the blanks based on what, what was the interest of the week. And that ended up being very difficult for other people to decide what they could hire me for, which is something I figured out pretty quickly. But I do think it is. People want to put you in this box. And I think it's a really useful box because it's a box that tells them what they can hire you for or what they can come to you for.
Carly Ayres :Hey, everybody, welcome to the creative rising a series of conversations on career courage and Creative Leadership. I'm your host, Blake Howard, and today we're asking the question, is there a perfect path for a creative career? Are there advantages to starting big with a big name to agency or Big named brand? Or should you be super focused in a single creative discipline? Right out of the gates like UX, graphic design, marketing, writing, or should you play the field? Making career moves can be super stressful, especially right now in the summer of 2020. With a recession at hand and unemployment being up to 11%, which just a few months ago, it was only three and a half percent. So making career moves right now has a lot of risk involved. Well, I've got good news for you. There is no single path. I think that's a myth. It can be straightforward and simple, or it can be a windy wreck with loads of lessons along the way. A career path is not a template to be followed. But there are aspects to consider before finding What is right for you? And that is why we're talking to today's guest, Carly Ayres. She's a writer and creative director currently at Google design, but has had quite the career journey already at a young age. So let me give you a little bit of her background but settle in and get comfortable cuz it's gonna take a minute. She originally studied industrial design at rezaee. And fresh out of school got a gig with creative mornings HQ in New York, which is a community based lecture series that most of you should know about if you don't go to creativemornings calm and do yourself a favor, but that is how we crossed paths. I was starting up the Atlanta chapter and as she was designing and writing most of their communications after creativemornings, she went on to work for a small agency, while also writing for various design publications like Communication Arts, wallpaper and core 77. Then she got a dream gig. Working for Google in their creative lab, where she was humanizing artificial intelligence in BDD and involving the Google logo, another nVd. After that, she decided to leave the Lush Life of that tech giant, and make the big leap of her own and co founded a firm called, wait for it. Paul Raff it's like saw without an H and raft without a T haul, Raph. Don't worry. We'll get to that. And I'll ask her about that name. But it was an interactive and technology design studio, based in New York. And hoerauf really pushed the envelope with work that engaged people in new and interesting ways, like sound reactive identities to mirrored selfie posters. And right off the bat they accumulated a killer roster of clients working with companies like Google, Facebook, intercom, Hasbro and BuzzFeed just to name a few But just after three short years, they decided to close their doors. And as a part of that Carly's swan song was to make public all of the firm's documentation from pitch decks to pricing the process, which got a lot of attention. In addition to co founding Hall Raff in 2017, she was named by Fast Company as one of the 100 most creative people in business. She also runs hundreds under 100, and inclusive community of hundreds of creative people under 100 years of age, which kind of pokes fun at the exclusive you know, 30 under 30 list or 40, under 40, or five under five, which I don't think that really exists, but that'd be pretty cool. And lastly, her current website is one of my favorite sites that I've ever seen. It's basically an open source Google Doc, seriously, you should go and check it out it Carly airs.com. We'll also put that in the show notes. Right now after all of those things I just mentioned, she's back at Google in their design department in a UX and community role. Needless to say, she is a mover and a shaker and has a lot to teach us on finding the perfect path for creative careers. All right, so I want to I want to talk about your career path and your journey. When you think back to graduating and trying to get the first gig right out of school, what what was your mindset and your approach to that, like, were you open to whatever opportunity came? Did you have a very specific idealic job or role that you wanted? How did you sort of approach that?
Blake Howard :I mean, when I was about to graduate, and I was fortunate that I actually interned at creativemornings, which is where I met you. Yeah, that's right near year. So I had an idea that I knew I was going back to creativemornings then I Wasn't sure throughout my entire senior year, I was doing, like, still doing some work for Tina and still supporting the creative community kind of, like on and off when I had, you know, between classes kind of doing a little bit of creative morning stuff here and there. But um, yeah, afterwards I ended up joining, but there was a moment there too, where I was like, should I do something else? Where else should I go? figuring out what was next. But I'd say the moment right before I took that internship was kind of the moment of truth where I had actually agreed to take an internship at a large really a pharmaceutical company, it was like a large producer of household items, many things that you probably find in your medicine cabinet and it was an industrial design internship. And I remember they required like a hair sample and essay test. It was like all these and I was like this, what I really wanted to do, I really want to design toothbrushes, that is not what I want to do. And I remember I'd taken more classes outside of my department than within it. I had this very kind of wild card portfolio of all sorts of random things. And I remember showing it actually to someone and this someone who ran the startup who was reviewing my portfolio who is like, you really just need to focus on something. And I was like, Okay, I really, I really don't want to do that. I know, I don't want to do i know i don't want to design toothbrushes. So I think I'm just gonna follow this woman who I found on Twitter who seems to be doing some really cool things in New York, and I'll just see where that takes me. And it did. It did seem to serve me well.
Carly Ayres :Yeah. Well, a large pharmaceutical or consumer goods company feels like the total opposite of creativemornings. Like if you could find the exact opposite, it would be created mores. How did you first so you found Tina Roth Eisenberg, the founder of creativemornings on on Twitter. How did you connect with her? How did you get that internship?
Blake Howard :center cold email? Yeah. And that was definitely like, one of those 2am emails that everyone tells you don't send emails to people, you want to work for it, but I feel like that was one where it was. Yeah, I mean, finding design. When I first found industrial design, I thought I'd like found exactly like it. And pretty soon after joining the department and taking classes, I was like, Oh, this is like, maybe not it and I think a lot of stuffs on my career kind of like that, where I was like, this is it. And then like a little bit into it, you're like, oh, maybe I want to love this and a little bit of that. Yeah, not exactly what I thought and but with Tina, it was I spending a ton of time on the internet, just finding people and things I was interested in. I think I still do a lot of that. And Tina popped up on Twitter for she was running creativemornings breakfast lecture series at the time, I think in nine cities. Atlanta was one of them. And now they're in what? Like 216? They're all I lose count.
Carly Ayres :Yeah, two to 20. Plus, I just, I just say 200 plus No.
Blake Howard :200 Plus, but yeah, I think finding that. And just knowing that she was someone who I thought was doing interesting work and wanting to be close to that, I think almost like a like a moth to a flame. I feel like it's like, I know, I don't want to do this. I don't know what I want to do. But this person seems to be doing things that I think are really cool. So go check out that space and see what it's like.
Carly Ayres :Yeah, I love that. I love thinking about that first gig out of school being really about more about the person or the people that can mentor you more than the work itself because that that will be very directional and life shaping in a lot of ways of just seeing someone that you look up to and how do they live life? What do they prioritize? What do they do? Sometimes that's more important than the work itself.
Blake Howard :Totally. And I'd say in this case, too, I mean, that set me up for everything. I did afterwards. I think careers are very much about people. It's very much about relationships. Every job, every opportunity I've ever gotten has been because someone somewhere, trusted me or knew me or was willing to take that risk on me because they knew someone who knew me. And I think that's informed everything I've been able to do. So joining a small lecture series that is now a large lecture series with this huge international creative community that that really set me up for a lot of the things I did afterwards.
Carly Ayres :Yeah, that's awesome. So after creativemornings, and which was really great. Monks was really more of a startup. You were there in the startup phase, you were probably a lot. You were not just in some specialized, dedicated role. You probably did all the things and a lot of different hats. You went from there to a few different agencies, and then you eventually landed at Google in their creative lab. What was that like? Because Cuz that feels like a dream gig. You know, like anyone who wants to do highly visible work be at a very creative place like, Google seems to be the top of the list if people could just throw a dart out there. What was that? Like? Totally,
Blake Howard :totally. And I would say creative love is always a story I think of too. And it's like, yeah, I also that was my dream job. That was absolutely my dream job. From the time I was a student, to practicing in New York and in writing and doing a lot of freelance work, creative lab was always kind of this place that was on my radar as this kind of like, this creative hub within a large technology company where you'd have boundless resources and be able to do anything you can dream of which I think at the end of the day work is a job. And it's always helpful to remind yourself of that, yeah, it all they all come with their own strengths and creative lab was no different than that. Definitely a lot of like, really awesome, creative people, but have a very different environment than then the one I made up within the wormholes of my brain and doing a lot of different things. And I actually ended up there. Yeah, after working in a lot of those agencies were one of the agencies I joined, I'd love creativemornings to join the small brand studio. And within, I think it was maybe like less than six months, it must have been like the first three months, we had kind of our check in. And all of us, the two founders and myself, agreed this was not a good fit. And so all of a sudden, I was freelancing, and I was like, I really wish I could have planned a little bit more for that or saved up some money to make this abrupt career shift. And I was fortunate that I mean, I had the creativemornings community so I had a lot of clients very early on, and some of those projects are what eventually landed me in the creative lab where I was able to I was working there as a writer, doing a lot a mix of a lot of like marketing stuff, I'd say like a mix of internal In external projects, you're pitching a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff never sees the light of day. I think that's a net. Now I recognize that As to be expected, but I think at the time, I was like, What What do you mean, we're not going to ship every single project I touch? And they're like me? No,
Carly Ayres :yeah. If you contrast that with, with creativemornings in the startup world, I mean, you were shipping everything because you had to it was like you had a project with a deadline in it, it ended and then you hit launch or post or whatever, and you didn't have the freedom to work on something that didn't get used. And start early. You'd have to use it. Yeah. It's very different. Yeah,
Blake Howard :I mean, very much. Yeah. If you have like, two people working on a project, three people working on a project, everything they do better be something that's, that's gonna serve the company in the long run. And when you're at a much larger company, it is like, yeah, it's about making small bets. It's about working on a lot of different projects. And if I mean, even a 10th of them, launches and then lands after that, then then you're in a pretty good spot, but yeah, I think That was that was very surprising to me once I would say during the creative lab,
Carly Ayres :yeah, that might be good for people to know and hear that if they are thinking about career shifts and changes and they're thinking about a bigger agency bigger place. That's the reality there, there was a friend of mine went to a big agency in New York, left Atlanta, went to New a big agency in New York did a lot of packaging projects. And he was so discouraged in the first two years of just busting it working long nights, big, big opportunities, huge rebrands. In one thing, shipped one thing saw the light of day, and it was so discouraging for him. But that's also just the reality of that world.
Blake Howard :It's brutal. I mean, and I've definitely seen it too, from the agency side where you're working on a brand or project and then you reach the end of it. You realize three other agencies were working on that same brief alongside you and they went with agency B instead of agency a and you're like, why? Yeah, what are you gonna do with all this? And it's like, well, nothing and you can't use it either. Yeah. And I think that's always that's always tough.
Carly Ayres :I'm curious to know about your time at Google in 2015, because it was around the launch of the logo and the news, visual identity that came out. That is the Google logo that we all know now. And before that, it was it was the wonky saref and the goofy colors, which it's still there. But I'm just curious, what was what was your role in that as a writer? And what was that process like for you? Because again, dream job, big place. big project. We're talking about the Google logo. Can you just talk to us a little bit more about that project? what it was like for you as a writer?
Blake Howard :Absolutely. Yeah. I think that was an interesting one to where I was very fortunate that I joined I think six months before it launched. And in reality, that was a project that was happening for for quite some time. And and with that, so many people touched it, you know, like there's so many teams within Google As well as outside of Google, and a lot of different people worked on that. And I was very glad to join kind of after a lot of those much more difficult decisions had been made they, they had a mark, they knew what it was supposed to do. They knew what it was doing well. And I mean, a lot of the work I did was around, even just internally figuring out how to tell everyone that this was going to happen, like how do you message something like that? How do you communicate it? And then externally, when something like that changes? I mean, how do people know that this is actually Google? Like, how do people find it? How do people not lose the icon on their phone and just never open Google again? What if they go to google.com? And they don't know. It's actually Google, which which seems unlikely but a lot of the work I did was a lot of notification copy it was. I remember they're all these matrices I made around like, okay if they saw the notification, but they didn't click Again, or if they have updated their phone within the last six months or if they've done this, and then there are all these different flows for, for how you would let someone know that Google's got a new look. And to make sure you you knew that was so the the Google logo, especially I think on the phone, that was a big fear that, yeah, maybe people wouldn't find it. Or maybe people wouldn't know what it was. But it is funny to work on something like that to where, while you're working on it, you're like, this is kind of a big project. And at some point, we're going to look back on this and we're going to totally forget the old logo. And I feel like I've reached that point. Just mentally we're like, oh, yeah, we used to have this other logo. And it was such a radical change in that moment. And and now I look back and it's the other logo just looks so ancient compared to the one that we're using right now.
Carly Ayres :It's kind of goofy in it. Yeah. You look back on you're like, wow, that was that was the tech company that changed the world right there.
Blake Howard :That guy?
Carly Ayres :Yeah. Oh, well. The yeah that that is interesting to get dealt such a big project that early on and working at a large company like Google, it could be a dream job you could have a dream project I'm sure it's got its pros and its cons. And I want to know a little bit more. Why because shortly thereafter you decided to leave to start your own agency with with three others. That was kind of a technology design mashups studio what was behind that that thought Why did you decide okay, I'm gonna go out on my own and start this new thing.
Blake Howard :Totally, I think I mean, with so many of these, these roles, I think I have a I have a tendency to put a lot of these positions on pedestals or have this idealized version of what they're going to be. I'm getting I'm getting better at it, but I can still kind of talk myself up into any job being kind of this dream job and, and all the things that it's going to afford me and I think creative. I was a little bit like that too. I think once I was there, I was like, okay, I've done this. This was the dream job? What's the next dream job? Because I need a new dream job. Yeah, this is just the job now. And yeah, I think that kind of easily distracted by shiny objects and with the studio. I mean, as I had been freelancing, I had really felt a shortcoming around just the ability to like see a project through to fruition. I think working on like a small piece of a much bigger project often with a bunch of other freelancers or coming into like someone else's studio and doing that work. And even at Google coming in and, and doing that work and then just seeing something go out and, and not having a lot of control of even like, what how the brief comes to you how it goes out, wanting just to be able to see more facets of that process, as well as just wanting to know how to run a studio. I think as a freelancer, I'd often be trying to convince friends to work on projects with me, I'd always had this Rolodex of like creative people who I wanted to work with. In a studio just felt like it would allow a lot more flexibility, a lot more control a lot more agency and autonomy over the work I was doing. And at creative lab I met Andrew, Nicky and Pedro, who all kind of had similar similar feelings. Andrew really wanted to learn how to run a studio so that Pedro, Nikki came along for the ride and the rest is history. We kind of each left at different points and joined forces to start holograph
Carly Ayres :Yeah, so you started your own studio and you got a lot of attention like it. It seemed like things were really fun and successful. Like you got to work with Google as a client you know, like slapping that logo on your client lists pretty good Facebook, intercom, BuzzFeed others, it seemed again, like another dream come true. And I love what you just said that like the dream job, the dream word faded off and it just became the job. So you you started holograph. And you had so much success right away? What What did it feel like in the early days of starting the studio?
Blake Howard :Coming from creative lab, it was actually pretty similar, I'd say to working on that logo project, you know, it's like, there's moments where you you're kind of pinching yourself, you're like, this is a very big project. And I will be talking about this on podcast five years from now. And I think the beginning of the studio felt like that too. It was, it was you, you want to stay humble you you don't want to totally gas yourself up. But at the same time, you're like, seems to be going pretty well. People seem to like the stuff seems to be pretty cool. And trying trying to balance that with also just like the excitement of starting something and knowing that you're gonna look back on that period and you'll never feel the same about that or you're not going to be in that moment again. So So trying to also just enjoy the excitement because with that, of course, came a ton of uncertainty and it Have a ton of things went wrong and especially early on and there are definitely some missteps and stumbles which you look back on. And with rose colored glasses. I it's hard to remember any of them. But I think in that moment in those early days it was it was trying to hold on to like the feeling of this is this is pretty cool. And this is going pretty well and, and things are kind of working out as well as trying to look forward and see. Okay, like how can we keep this going and maintain momentum? For me? Yeah, press has always been a big piece of just continuing to get external validation from various publications, but also it keeps the team motivated. It keeps people excited about the projects. I've never found that it's led to more work, which I think is always the the assumption at least for our studio. But it's more the validation to for like when a client is googling these 20 somethings running a design studio making sure there's a Some sort of paper trail that they're a real studio that they can trust with their money. Right?
Carly Ayres :Yeah. I'm curious to how you landed on the name Hall, Raph. Because it when I first saw it, I remember when you when you guys launched it, I remember thinking, What's that? How do you say that? And then I heard you one time explain it that it's like saw but with an H, and like raft but without the T, which was a memorable device was helpful. I know it's holograph. Now, what did that stand for? How did you land on it?
Blake Howard :Well, for the longest time, I mean, I feel like a name is such it's such a popular question. I mean, for individuals for companies, people always want to know, like, okay, like, What's in a name? Where does this come from? What are its origins? What's the origin story here? And with holograph, we were asked that so often that it became this game where every time we were doing an interview, whoever didn't like kick off the question first, we would have to be the one who answered it. So I'd always be like, that's actually a really good question. Andrew has a really great story. Andrew would have to make up a story. And we'd have to do it without laughing because if we laughed that that could be rude. And that could be weird. So we just have to keep a straight face every single time. And we did that with client conversations. We did that whole sorts of stuff. So there's a lot of different definitions of holograph floating around the internet. And I'll let you decide which one is the the true one, but I will say we thought it was going to be a lot easier to say then it ended up being we had spent a lot of typing it and we didn't run our focus group to see if all the people could say it. And there's a lot of just conversations where someone's like, your studio. What's your heart craf like wrong. Yeah. Doesn't really matter. You're like, as long as you call us when you have a project. I'm fine.
Carly Ayres :Hey everybody, I just wanted to take a quick minute on this break to say thank you for supporting the creative rising. And if you enjoy this show, and you feel like it's helped you in some way, there are two things you could do to help me in return. The first is just tell a friend about the show, say, hey, you should listen to this podcast, maybe send it to them. The second is leave me a review on Apple podcasts. Just like this recent riser review from Hey, Liz Anderson, who said, quote, an essential for creatives. This podcast is essential in my library. Every episode offers unique insights into the creative process and design thinking. Wow, thank you, Liz. That was so nice of you. And it's so easy to leave that review those two things would help me out tremendously. Thanks again for listening. And also a quick hat tip to match stick the brand identity house of the self that is where I work. That is how this show is produced. And if you need help clarifying your message or standing out in the market, be sure to visit us at matchstick comm that's ma tch STI c.com. All right, back to the show. Going back to your your journey and your career. So holography, you guys were sort of known for doing really fun experimental projects seems like like pushing the boundaries, doing new things. In fact, eventually you decided to close the studio. How did you how did you make that decision and then and then also, you sort of open sourced all of the process documents you had created a lot of the almost like proprietary IP you had around the studio, you just release it, which was was was notable, like people talked about that. I just want to know more Why Why did you do that? And then what led up to the decision to close the shop?
Blake Howard :Yeah, that was the most fun of all of all the fun things, I think, throwing it all into the wind. Although it wasn't very fun while it was happening. I will admit that now I look back on it. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, that was that was definitely a good decision. I have to say like, when I was in it, I was. I mean, I was I was really broken up about it. I think we had just reached this point where we were getting bigger and bigger projects. And we were reaching this point where we had to decide whether we would keep growing. We needed to hire people to do the projects that we were on the line for and we were we had actually just locked down this very large project. And all of a sudden, we realized we had to hire three people like there was no way we fulfill it without hiring three people full time. And it was at that moment where we we kind of had just like our come to Jesus conversation that was like, all right, where are we headed? Like, what does everyone want? And those answers were all very different because people change and they evolve. And yeah, the things they want shift and change too. And so it was a, that was those were we had a few pretty tough decisions around that where it was just Initially, the goal of hora was to learn how to run a studio. We were all leaving creative lab, we we had questions about how to do it, we knew we wanted to experiment and want to see if we could make the work we wanted to make and make money. That for us was a huge question mark. And I think we'd reached this point where we started making some of the work that we didn't want to make and we were making money and that I was like, that feels good too, that lets us do the other things. But I do think it kind of reached a point where I was like, okay, we've we've learned what we want to learn and now, the next decisions will take us on very different paths. So valuing each other's friendship and the time we had already spent together with Decided to shut it down and head on our separate ways. And with that, as we're wrapping up projects, my I tend to spend most of my time doing a lot of like writing but also doing the new business side of things and the operations and finding myself with little extra free time since I was no longer running a studio is like Alright, let's uh, let's open source all these documents and everyone everyone helped out but we we kind of just scrubbed everything and figured out how we could create just kind of our final swan song that would hopefully be helpful for everyone else looking to start out too, which is pretty much exactly what we wish we would have had when we were starting the studio. So yeah, and yeah, and it's still I'm still getting emails about that drive today. People kind of like pop in my inbox. I'm like, really wish you'd provided a contract about like X, Y and Z. I'm like, Alright, alright, alright. There's some good stuff there. Got a
Carly Ayres :request noted but done with that. You mentioned this The tension a little bit between projects that are fun and projects that pay well. And I think that is definitely part of like the owners journey and the balance act of having a small studio because everyone wants to do the fun work. But then as you grow and if you have staff and team members, everyone wants to get paid also. So, balancing that is, is really difficult. I've always felt like, you just you have to have a good healthy balance on it. And you can't have extremes either way. Like, you can't think I'm gonna have this ideal job where we only work on unbelievable projects with the best clients who are open to everything, they don't have hard things to say. And everything is gonna be Skittles and rainbows that's just not not the case. There's going to be projects that you have to take that are difficult, but you can still say like, Okay, I'm going to take this, I'm going to, I'm going to put food on the table or I'm going to get paid for it but I'm at least gonna do like one small victory. I'm gonna have one thing that I'm gonna learn from like you can frame it up in a way that still makes it beneficial and helpful, but I think that's a point to create. Just because some people get into either starting their own business or working at a place that's small, and they just think it's gonna be all Skittles and rainbows, and that's not the case.
Blake Howard :Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, those were a lot of the hard conversations we had we, we actually ended up having this flowchart where it would help us decide what projects we should take on. Because for me, I'd be like, Okay, this project pays a lot. And if we could take a bunch of these, then we could do a bunch of the other stuff. But kind of figuring out what were the compromises we were willing to make. And the one that you pointed out, yeah, about learning, like, Is there a growth opportunity here? Can we use a new type of software? Can we use a new platform? Is there something that we can learn from doing this? Is this something where we're going to work with someone that's really interesting, and maybe we won't get paid compensated the way we want to, but maybe we can find compensation in other ways and we certainly did that a lot with friends we have there's furniture in my house. From a website we did for furniture company, there's a there's definitely like a finding what, what makes like a good a good compromise and how to find that middle ground with some of the work that you do. But it's definitely not easy. And it's definitely I mean, that was the exercise. We wanted to see if we couldn't make the work. We wanted to make money. And I think at a certain point, you can but you you really do have to compromise on Yeah, how much do you want to make? And do you wanna have health insurance? And it was something that wasn't? I think it could have been sustainable at a certain level but but not if we were looking to hire people and have other people be accountable for us paying them and and having that type of business.
Carly Ayres :Yeah, yeah, that's definitely another part of it is is the growth and the more people you add, the more opinions and complexities you get, because there's definitely the side of like the work that you're really passionate about or work that you find interesting is very subjective. So I've always I've noticed that also where, you know if we have if we have seven or eight people they might have Seven or eight times the amount of opinions on what actually is interesting, you know, so like some, some person might be like, Man, this is a terrible example one person might be like, I love cigarettes, and I love cigarettes brandy, I can't wait to rebrand Marlboro reds, like, let's get on and then everyone else is like, what? That sounds terrible. I don't want to I don't want to do that. And so as a as a group, it gets difficult to sort of align on what's interesting, what's not interesting. And so that that is definitely where if you stay small and nimble, you know, like a freelancer or just a really small studio, that that minimizes sort of that that tension that can pop up.
Blake Howard :Yes, yes, very much. So. Yeah, I think we definitely had projects that we turned down for ethical reasons. And then increasing Yeah, those questions get harder and harder. You know, cigarettes is one thing I mean, awards that you pay for I was definitely on our list of things we wouldn't do and we all agreed on like what that looks like. In the beginning, which I think was referring to like, what are principles? What are our values? But yeah, as you start going down the line, you're like, hmm, large technology company. What are the degrees here that were willing to draw the line? And what are the things that we're excited about or not excited about or just absolutely ethically opposed? On a fundamental level? Yeah. You know, there's a lot of gray area there.
Carly Ayres :Yeah, for sure. So we've kind of gone through the list. You've had a lot of different experiences. You're now back at Google. And I'm just curious as as a designer, by sort of background and trade and even sort of style and taste. As a writer as a thinker. You've been in house you've been agency even owner through that windy path, what tips would you give to anyone listening trying to plot out their right path?
Blake Howard :That's a tough one. I mean, yeah, and it's one that comes up a lot. I think for me, I've my career has been a bit of have almost like a research experience experiment. I feel like there's been a lot of steps along the way where I didn't know what the next step should be. And in those cases, I usually found myself I mean freelancing where you get to work on a lot of different things, but you're by yourself. creativemornings was a good one just meet wearing a lot of different hats. I think being in environments, startups or even small studios where, where you really don't have the luxury of specializing in any one thing. You're kind of trying a lot of different things out and seeing what fits. And then yeah, from freelancing, it was nice because I could be embedded in a studio one day, maybe a large agency The next day, and then seeing a lot of what those different work environments actually were like, even though my work was somewhat similar from place to place, playing different roles. So I think that's always one approach. I think also there's for me, in particular, I'm, I used to call myself a specialist generalist or a generalist specialist generally specializing in blank blank, blank blank, I'd like fill in the blanks based on what What was the interest of the week? And that ended up being very difficult for other people to decide what they could hire me for, which is something I figured out pretty quickly. But I do think it is, people want to put you in this box. And I think it's a really useful box, because it's a box that tells them what they can hire you for or what they can come to you for. And you have the luxury of figuring out what that box should be. And maybe it's a skill set. Maybe it's a point of view, maybe it's a specific industry, maybe it's a type of work, versus like the actual work itself. Maybe it's about, maybe you're very interested in the world of I don't know, cigarettes, or maybe you're really interested already. You know, and for me, it's always kind of been words and community and it's something that that wasn't evident to me until maybe like a year ago, you know, and recently I've been doing trying to do more of like an annual exercise actually, I think Tina asked me Another Tina put me on to this, of just like charting my values and figuring out what are the spaces that I'm really excited about? What are the types of projects that I'm really proud of moments where I was really happy and trying to triangulate, what were the common points there and, and use that to kind of navigate a path forward. Because, I mean, as we've seen, I can I can kind of talk myself up into any job being my dream job. So it's nice to instead of being so reactive about that, it's nice to be a little proactive. So I think that's those are the kind of spaces that I look for now or things where I'm, I'm using language and words and communication and usually working with the creative community in some capacity. And that's where I've landed as of late, but I don't know where it will take me next.
Carly Ayres :Maybe we'll do this podcast again in 10 years, and you'll have a different perspective. I do think though, that you know, there's sometimes there's this felt pressure about making the right career moves, which you know, I get that I totally get it. Because you don't want to go through the hard process of leaving somewhere and start in getting oriented and getting on a new team and then realizing you really hate it and then having to start all over like that processes. It's like, you know, buying a house and moving in and realizing that the location of town you hate, and you've got to do all that again. So I get that. But there's also should be some freedom that especially in your 20s and 30s, you're really just discovering you're really just exploring, kind of surveying the land. And there's there's plenty of time to choose a specialty to sort of focus in and build more of that expertise. But I just think there's an unnecessary pressure sometimes to make the absolute perfect move.
Blake Howard :100% I think anytime I talk to someone who's like about to graduate, and they're like, I'm a blank and blank blankety blank specialist. I'm like, how do you know that? I don't even know what I'm working on. I have no idea what I'm doing tomorrow. What do I specialize that I think I'm like, just starting to figure out some of those things. And the job I'm in now didn't exist when I was graduated college. It wasn't even that long ago. So I think those things are very subject to change. And I think the best thing you can do for yourself is learn how to be flexible. Learn how to be someone who is always growing, learn to be someone who's always meeting people and building relationships and, and, you know, flipping over every rock, seeing what's underneath being someone who's curious, because I think those are the things that are going to serve you well, no matter where you end up. But yeah, and I mean, I definitely remember the pressure of feeling like I needed to know what I was doing. And and now even I have to put together like a personal development growth plan for Google right now at work. And I'm like, I don't know where I want to be in five years. And I kind of don't really want to think about it like, but it is, you know, it's a good exercise. I'll do it. Yeah, I promise.
Carly Ayres :So, I've been defining courage as the ability to reject indifference. You know, not, not be Absent fear, we all have fears. We all have anxiety to varying degrees. But courage to me comes into play of pushing yourself in your work like your craft. And encourage also applies to choosing to have hard conversations and working with difficult people like that is definitely a part of a creative professionals journey, it's going to happen. So for you rejecting indifference, or, you know, the big answer or the big thought is to be courageous means you're going to reject in difference, you're not going to just give up pushing your work, you're not just going to give up working with difficult people, you're going to like push through that. So what does rejecting indifference look like for you as a creative,