Toxic and Treason Threats--The Courageous Story of Ashley Yablon

Hold onto your seat! Imagine getting your dream job--the one you've spent your life planning for--and realize that you're facing the mindblowing decision of "Do I keep doing exactly what I'm doing and risk treason charges?" or "Do I trust my conscience and implode my career? 

That was the impossible and--for a person of integrity and conscience-- yet easy decision that faced attorney Ashley Yablon several years ago.  He literally put his life and his career in danger by standing on principle against the most unprincipled of employers.

His is a story faced in much smaller ways every day by people who face unethical and toxic pressures at work.  Yet none of them--and none of us--have to wonder if we could get out of our companies alive and have the FBI ready to launch a strike to save us. But he did.

Ashley Yablon, a former general counsel, risked it all. He's the author of "Standing Up to China"--a book you need to buy today.

Hear his story of being set up to take the fall by a multi-billion $$$ company backed by a government that plays dirty and for keeps.  Learn what he learned when he became the target in a story of spying, international business, leadership, survival, adversity, and outrageous courage.

Ashley Yablon's links:

Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/ashleyyablon/
https://twitter.com/AshleyYablon
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyyablon/

Book Sales:
https://ashleyyablon.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Standing-Up-China-Whistleblower-Everything/dp/1612545580/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=standing+up+to+china&qid=1647652566&sr=8-1
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/standing-up-to-china-ashley-yablon/1140441874?ean=9781612545585

You can reach Pete Havel at http://www.fireproofedleadership, com via email at pete@petehavel.com, through LinkedIn, Twitter, and by phone at 214.244.7906.

To buy a signed copy of his book, The Arsonist in the Office, click HERE.

To purchase an unsigned copy of Pete's book, The Arsonist in the Office, go to Amazon

Audiobooks can be purchased at Audible

Transcript

Toxic and Treason Charges with Pete Havel and Ashley Yablon

[00:00:00] Pete Havel: Good afternoon. This is Pete Havel, and this is the Gas Glue and Guard Rails podcast, the ultimate career leadership and culture show. I just botched the name of my program. You can tell it is fairly new, and we are starting out with some of the best episodes right off the bat. 

 I am the President of Fireproofed Leadership. You can find out more information about that at www.Fireproofedleadership.com. I am also the author of The Arsonist in the Office: fireproofing your Life against Toxic Coworkers, Bosses, Employees, and Cultures. And we're going to be talking about some interesting, cultural, and toxicity issues today.

We call this show the Gas Glue and Guardrails podcast because I am passionate about issues affecting leadership and culture, and especially how they impact careers. So the gas is that thing that drives us, the energizing factors in life. The glue is what sticks us together, unites us.

I [00:01:00] believe in organization's purpose and values and vision, those types of things. And good behavior. Those guardrails are those things that, not only guide you as you're looking out into the future. And guardrails are pretty handy for keeping you from crashing into things.

And that leads me to, our guest for today. We have a man with an incredible story who learned a lot. We'll ask him about all those experiences coming up. But, I have to tell you before anything else, and before I introduce him, I want you to get online right now to Amazon or wherever you buy your books.

Ashley will give us some more options on where they can find those, but I would encourage you, to get yourself a copy of Standing up to China, How a Whistleblower Risked Everything for his Country.  This is no ordinary podcast. I will give you a mea culpa right now for folks that have been following me or have known me for the last few years, I talk a lot about.

A crazy experience [00:02:00] in life that was transformational for me. I was in by every measure possible, a, toxic workplace, a corrupted organization, a place where frankly, I got shaken to my core by what I experienced. I will tell you, I'm going to tone down that talk in the future because our guest today, Ashley Yablon, has a story that is going to blow you away.

Ashley, thanks for coming on. 

[00:02:26] Ashley Yablon: Hey Pete. Thanks so much for having me. Glad to be here

[00:02:29] Pete Havel: Thank you. Tell me about where you're from, and then I'm going to cut you off at some point when you're getting into your bio because we're going to, jump into your story.

So tell us a little bit about you.

[00:02:40] Ashley Yablon: Sure. Again, Ashley Yablon. I was born and raised in Texas. I'm an attorney. I have been an attorney for 22 years, somewhere around there and born and raised in Dallas. Went to SMU for undergrad. Went to law school at Loyola in New Orleans.

And like I said, been practicing around 22 years. I have done, in-house [00:03:00] jobs, and worked at law firms when I first started to get experience. Then general counsels, and I'm sure we'll talk about that. Now I have my own firm, and I'm also a speaker as well. And as you mentioned, I'm the author of the book Standing Up to China.

[00:03:12] Pete Havel: Great, and we'll go over it at the end, but also all the ways to contact you, all the information about how to get a book in case people have not already jumped on and got theirs. But, that's going to be in the show notes as well for the folks that are listening on Apple and Spotify, wherever they get their podcasts.

So your dream was to be a general. Yes. And you got your feet wet in, in a couple of great companies, McAfee and some others. And we're going to get to the big kahuna in just a bit. But you learned a little something early on in another job. And I want to be careful when I say this.

You worked for a couple of Chinese companies and. for good or bad. And everybody should understand this, and today, we're going to be talking about your story. Still, your story is [00:04:00]also not only about international intrigue and the wheels going off in an incredible way, but we're going to be talking about workplace culture because in, in working with any international company or family business or anything like that, the rules are always a.

Different. They've got their customs. Everybody does. So I want to tee this up with a conversation that you had. You name her Heather in the book, your boss at Huawei, who tells you as an American attorney. Here's how we view this whole American law thing.

What does she tell you? 

[00:04:33] Ashley Yablon: Yeah, so you have to understand, obviously, as you mentioned, my dream job was to be a general counsel, and you have to kind of start your way at the bottom if you're even able to get in-house. I was lucky enough to get in-house, as you mentioned, at McAfee, and then had an opportunity to work at a one of a multinational multi.

Billion-dollar company. As you mentioned, Huawei and I started at the ground level and worked my way up through Huawei. And, [00:05:00] just a little bit of the culture, these large Chinese companies, these telecom companies that we'll be talking about that I work for. 80% of the staff, there are Chinese nationals here on visas, and only 20% are US citizens.

So you really, as a US citizen, have to learn the Chinese culture and. That took a lot of getting used to, and I'm sure we'll talk about that a lot, but the conversation that you're alluding to happened with the Chinese general counsel who was over here, and I was explaining to her US law.

And, it really doesn't matter what the law was, but I was explaining, , and I said, Heather, this is the law. and we have to follow that. And she looked at me and she said, that's not a law that's merely a suggestion. And I said no. That's actually the law. We have to follow that.

And she leaned in. She leaned in for emphasis and kind of smiled and said, no, it's merely a suggestion. And I, that, that was a, I like to talk about [00:06:00] a lot in the book, red flags. That was one that went off at the time. That I should have really understood, that's how they view things.

That's how they view things and what we think of is the law. They don't see things that way. So you have to get used to the culture of how they view things. And that was the first one right there.

[00:06:15] Pete Havel: And probably a sign that whatever you did from that point on, as an ethical attorney and somebody there to uphold the law, about as big a red flag as you can get.

So, you're there at Huawei. And I wanted going to be talking with you about, more about your journey from Huawei to, your next company in just a minute, because I I'm fascinated by many things. But, you eventually get recruited to ZTE, which becomes a big focus in the book.

You become a finalist for the job. How many finalists were there? 

[00:06:50] Ashley Yablon: I never knew what that number was, but, as you mentioned, I was recruited and I learned this about Chinese culture, especially about these two Chinese telecom giants. And [00:07:00] that is, it's a huge feather in their cap to steal employees from each other.

And you have to remember, I had just started as this, U.S.-, based attorney at Huawei, and immediately was, as you mentioned, recruited by ZTE to be their first ever US-based general counsel. So the attorney in charge of all of North America and I don't know how many attorneys or, candidates there were, told my wife at the time, no one is going to out-answer me.

No one is going to out-interview me. This will be my job. Because I'd worked so many years and sacrificed so much to get here, that was my mindset. So I did everything I possibly could. I remembered what I learned at Huawei about Chinese culture, and everything that I knew was right, and I had my answers down pat.

But I was dead set, laser-focused, that I would not lose. This would be my job. 

[00:07:57] Pete Havel: Looking back, did it almost feel too good to be [00:08:00] true in terms of how things were lining up? 

[00:08:03] Ashley Yablon: It really did. Exactly. And I, looking back, I was, I was the perfect candidate. This young, ambitious American lawyer was so focused on getting the position that he would do almost anything.

And I think that's what was. Taken advantage of, or at least, what they really liked about me, maybe about, and I can't speak for other candidates, but I can only speak for myself. I was going to get that job and I was going to do anything and everything to get it. And I think that was taken advantage of. And to your point, it probably was too good to be true.

[00:08:35] Pete Havel:

Yeah. And obviously they, misjudged your character. In some substantial ways. They underestimated whom they were hiring. So you get into this new company, this company of a different culture. What were your first days like at ZTE as you're learning? I'm sure it was a little bit different like any company would be, from Huawei, but what is that?

What's that ramp-up stage looking like? And folks, this is building up to something [00:09:00]amazing. I'm laying the groundwork, but what were those early days like? What was your team like that has been put together for you? 

[00:09:07] Ashley Yablon: Yeah. And that's the best way to describe it, put together for me.

Just so your audience knows, and I'm sure they do, a general counsel is the head attorney of a company who, again, based on the size of the company, would have other attorneys, staff, and paralegals underneath them to assist on all the legal matters. And so when I first started, I assumed, Hey, great, I'll build my own staff of US-based attorneys, US paralegals to help me with this position.

And what I learned was that I wasn't allowed to hire any staff. The staff was provided for me, and what they provided, as I mentioned before, with 80% of the company's team being Chinese nationals, what they provided me was three Chinese licensed attorneys. So they weren't licensed here in the United States.

They couldn't practice law in the United States. [00:10:00] Again, that would be a crime. But they spoke varying degrees of English, so it was very hard to utilize them to do anything. So it was extremely challenging, and as I described in the book,

what I ended up doing was having a giant six-foot by six-foot whiteboard put into my office, and literally, I would have them come in and literally draw pictures trying to explain the process of what we were trying to do. So to say it was challenging is an understatement, and I myself doing most everything by myself.

[00:10:29] Pete Havel: And I'm sure incredibly difficult to know if you were, cause obviously, all of you were there to serve the company, but. Level of confidence in any of these employees. It's difficult when you got the language barrier, but also certainly they're there for them, for the home team, not necessarily working with, as much with their coach if you will.

Yeah. Yeah, you, so you mind your own business. You're doing your thing as general counsel, and I may get this. A little bit wrong in the detail, [00:11:00] but one-day information comes out in the news about ZTE.

What drops about ZTE into the news that suddenly has you searching for answers? 

[00:11:10] Ashley Yablon: Yeah. Great question. So as I talked about in the book, I started at ZTE in October, and this is October of 20 11, 1 month later. And I refer to it in the book as the Thanksgiving meeting because it was the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.

There was a meeting called in the large conference room for all the executives of ZTE. When I say executives, remember we're talking about all Chinese nationals who are over here on visas. And the only US-based executive is me. And what had happened was the US House Intelligence Committee had launched an investigation into both ZTE as well as my former employer, Huawei, because they felt that both of these Chinese telecom giants were a threat to US national security.

And all eyes turned to me at this [00:12:00] meeting and said, Ashley, what do we do? And I looked at them, and I said, what we need to do is hire a large, US based, law firm that's a lobbying-based law firm to assist us in this House investigation. And then you have to remember they speak varying degrees of English.

So they would huddle up, talk in Mandarin, and the one would come back, who is the CEO, and say, Ashley, we hired you as our attorney. Why can't you handle this? So you're having to explain. You have to explain; I'm the general counsel. We need an outside counsel that has a specialty in this.

I can't have a specialty in every type of matter. And they agreed, and they said, and this is the whole key takeaway from the meeting was, okay, we agree. Go out and find. Five different firms for us to interview. Pick the five best, but at the end of the day, Ashley, it's gonna be you. It's gonna be you standing up in front of CSpan or in front of Congress on C-SPAN, holding up your hand and swearing that we're doing nothing wrong.

So here they are; they can speak varying degrees of English, but they [00:13:00] certainly understand C-Span and a congressional investigation. But they wanted me, the US-based executive, to swear to their lies. So again, as I mentioned in the book, that's another huge red flag that, at the time, I just didn't see.

[00:13:15] Pete Havel: Absolutely. So shortly after that, you're doing the work any smart lawyer would. , you're finding out what's fact, and what's fiction. You're watching a presentation being flashed up on the screen with a lot of information, and you get to the truth without them telling you the truth, right?

And what was that truth? 

[00:13:37] Ashley Yablon: So, as you mentioned, I then started looking for five different law firms, and I was working on that. And then, a few months later, we get, Reuters came out with an article and had gotten its hands somehow on a contract between ZTE and the country of Iran.

And that contract was for hundreds of millions of dollars of spying [00:14:00] technology. And not only did they have a copy of the contract, but they had an over 900-page packing list. And we all know what a packing list is, right? We go to Ikea, you buy something, and a packing list tells you everything that's in the box.

Now imagine a 900-page packing list that's telling you everything in the box, but also the component parts to it. Here's why that's important. It doesn't list out just one large spying tower. It lists out one spying tower, but with this US-based pro, get, get gizmo in it, this US-based product.

So imagine that's problematic. The problem is, what happened is ZTE had found out a way and created a way to create an elaborate shell game and scheme where they were buying U.S. Component parts and then re-export them through a series of shell companies back to ZTE to put into their products and then [00:15:00] re-export those products to the embargoed countries of Iran or Iran, Syria.

You named all the embargoed countries, and they were doing it to the tune of billions and billions. Of revenue. And immediately when that article came out with Reuters, I was served as the U.S. general counsel with a subpoena from the Department of Commerce saying, "Hey, we want a copy of that contract, and we want a copy of that packing list."

As you can imagine what was happening, this company was violating export laws. And these US-based companies were at the heart of it by selling billions of dollars of component parts. And then those were getting re-exported back to the embargo countries. So what happened, as you mentioned, as we were then led to go to China because the House Intelligence Committee…

At this point, there are two things going on in parallel. You have the House intelligence investigation going on. And now you got the Department of Commerce investigation going on based on, [00:16:00]that article that came out, that subpoena. So we go to China and will present to the House Intelligence Committee because you have to remember, ZTE is based in Xinjin, China.

And so is Huawei. And remember, the House Intelligence Committee was investigating both of those companies. So they wanted to come over to China, and they wanted both companies to present to them, "Hey, why you aren't a threat to US National Security?" And what their concern was. The concern was that both companies were run by the.

Government. Communist Party. China was running these companies, and that's foreign to us. We always think that there's a separation. That all these US companies are independently owned and not run by the US government in China. It's just the opposite. And especially these large entities like Huawei and ZTE.

So when we get over there, my job was to get to the bottom of this contract and this packing list and what I uncovered, and it's something out [00:17:00] of a movie. The ZTE campus is huge. It's like a college campus. That's how big it is. And I was brought to a large, 20-story white office building there.

I was taken upstairs to a deserted floor, led to a room that had no windows, and all that was sitting there was a gentleman at a computer in the complete dark. And I sat down, and he turned on a small little light by him, and I said, where's the contract? I need to review it as your attorney. And he said, "you're not gonna get a copy of it."

"What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna project it on from this computer on a projector on the wall." And he literally projected it on the wall and he said, you have 15 minutes to go through the contract, and you have 15 minutes to go through the packing list. So I said, let's start with the packing list and imagine a 900-page packing list to go through in 15 minutes.

Impossible. But it was a searchable pdf. So I was calling out all these US component part companies and [00:18:00] seeing how many hits we would get. So just as an example, IBM, and you'd see 400 and something hits. So I knew that there were 400 IBM component parts in that packing list. And I'm making kind of a list, and I'm just calling out companies at random, and 15 minutes go by really quickly.

And then he says, okay, let me put the contract up. So he puts the contract up. And I'm looking at it, and your audience probably knows, but any international contract is split down the middle. One half on one side is in English, and the other half is in the native language. So here it was in Chinese, but the other half was in English.

So I said, scroll through it. Scroll through it. And at one point, I said, go back a page, and he went back, and I about fell down. I was stand to remember, and I nearly needed to sit down because I saw translated in English. Brazenly said was a section called How We Will Get Around U.S. export laws.

That was a title of the section in [00:19:00] the contract. Not only did it have that, but it had a picture, and it listed out the shell entities and what each entity would do. So you have to understand, as I mentioned, ZTE had created. This elaborate scheme of being able to get around the US export laws was brazen enough to even put the language in a contract with the country of Iran.

And that was what was at issue. And at that point, that's when all kinds of things happened. And one follow-up point that I want to make is this is what really spiraled everything out of control. I then went because, you have to remember, ZTE is based in Xinjin, China, and that's where the mother company is.

I was the general counsel of ZTE U S A, which is just an entity of ZTE. So I don't wanna get to legalese, but the US government doesn't have jurisdiction over ZTE China. They have jurisdiction over ZTE U S A. But they can't get those [00:20:00] documents from ZTE U S A that they want cuz these contracts were with ZTE China, not ZTE U S A.

And so the US government realized it had a bit of a problem because they couldn't really get these documents, and they were trying to put pressure. , even though they knew they didn't have jurisdiction. What happened was, right when I saw this that you just described, I went, and I said, this is a problem, guy.

We have to give this over to the government, and the ZTE head legal person and his group of Chinese attorneys would huddle up again speaking in Mandarin. And they came back and they would come up with elaborate schemes. Okay, Ashley, what if we say this? What if we say we never shipped any of this to Iran?

And I said, it's too late. They already know it's sitting in a warehouse, Iran to be installed. So cat's already out of the bag. And then they went back and they said, what if we do this? And each scheme was more and more crazy. And finally they, I, they said, okay, we'll comply, we'll give over all the information.

And [00:21:00] I said, great. Then as I mentioned, I had three Chinese lawyers who worked for me, and one of them was there standing there and she said, Ashley, do you understand what they're saying right now? And I said, no, they're speaking in Mandarin. And she said, what they're saying is, They are not gonna give over the documents.

They're gonna destroy all the evidence and they're gonna make you, Ashley, you the scapegoat for everything. And 

[00:21:22] Pete Havel: that's when I know you found the person. Finally, you found the person you could trust in the organization telling you the truth. Tell yeah. 

[00:21:28] Ashley Yablon: So that's when, everything spiraled from there.

[00:21:30] Pete Havel:

That's right. Tell me when you were even going through some of those moments, having been in a bizarre workplace environment, myself, I went back and forth at times as I was both learning how. depraved, some of the activities were in front of me, but I was also a company guy. I was taught that my job, my career, my identity is to help the folks that are giving me a paycheck.

Tell me about what's going on [00:22:00] in your head while this is happening, because in the book it seems like there is, you were not slowly led, you were methodically led from the standpoint. , maybe even during part of this time where you're thinking, I'm trying to be a good lawyer to, to, for my clients, for my employer.

But also you've got a wheels off situation where you've got law breaking going on and obviously also thinking about yourself as we'll get into in just a minute in terms of you have to protect yourself when you're on this high level of, I was getting to use a four letter word. You've got challenges, facing you.

So what, where were you in terms of, all right, am I Ashley the lawyer? Am I actually the guy who's in the crosshairs? Am I the good employee, or what do I do , tell me what's going on with you as the employee at that point. 

[00:22:48] Ashley Yablon: I freaked out at that point. I, called my wife and I basically, came home early from that trip and there was concern if I could even get in because a lot of ZTE employees were getting stopped [00:23:00] at at the border.

And so I luckily made it back into the country. And I knew I needed to do something and I ended up calling lawyers. I'm a lawyer. My, my ex-wife is a lawyer. All my best friends were lawyers. But I ended up talking to, and hiring, personally, hiring outta my own pocket, five lawyers to represent me.

And one of the lawyers was a criminal lawyer. When I explained what happened, he said, you have criminal. Implications here. Ashley and I struggled. To your point, I struggled and struggled because as an attorney, we have of course, attorney-client privilege and everyone knows what that is. Your client tells you they did something wrong in the past.

You have to protect that. You have to give you that confidential. What my client was telling me they were gonna do was not only, lie, but they're gonna fur crime in the future. And this isn't some petty crime. We're talking an international crime for billions of dollars and a threat to our national security, and I'm at the heart of it.

And they wanna make me the scapegoat. So I struggle with their attorney-client privilege. [00:24:00]But then finally my lawyer said, Ashley, the exception of this is what you just mentioned, your client is gonna commit a crime in the future. And that's what we call the crime fraud exception. So you as an attorney have an ethical duty to go report that, not keep that confidential and.

So that's what ended up happening. And I struggled with it because I wanna do, as you point out, this is my employer, this is my livelihood, what's gonna happen to me, but also what's gonna happen as an attorney. And I struggled, do I keep this confidential? What do I do? And that's really at the heart of the book.

And this is when it all kind of spins outta control. 

[00:24:34] Pete Havel: Yeah. Put us in that scene with you where you're in your attorney's office and it's you, it's FBI agents, folks from Justice were in this meeting, but they explained to you, what your options are or, you didn't have many options in reality, but, actually, here's how this can go one way or the other.

Tell us what that meeting was like. 

[00:24:55] Ashley Yablon: When I finally decided to explain everything, my attorney, set up a meeting, as you said, with the [00:25:00] FBI, and I spent two days sitting down with two FBI agents and explained all the players the shell scheme that ZTE had created. The players, all the people who were involved in the names and.I gave that over to the FBI and I also gave them my computer. They made what they call a preservation copy of my laptop, and with all the information I gave to them, they created a 32-page affidavit. My understanding of that affidavit was that it was to be presented to a judge. For him to sign and for them to come do an actual raid on ZTE e all based on all the information that I had given over to them.

So I gave all that information and my employment lawyer, remember I had five lawyers, said, you need to go back to work. And I did and no one knew what I was doing. And then what happened? A few, months later. I got a phone call saying from a reporter saying he had gotten a copy of that affadavit, and you have to remember that affidavit is called, is filed what we call under seal, [00:26:00]meaning it never sees the light of day.

. It's confidential. No one ever knows it exists. No one knows me. No one knows anything that got leaked. We have all kinds of theories on how it got leaked, but the bottom line was it was now gonna be published in a national publication and I was being contacted to comment on it, and I went into a panic and called my lawyers and we could never figure out what was gonna happen.

But I knew it was gonna happen, knew it was gonna come out, knew at the moment it was. . And as you read about in the book, you see my wife and I huddled on the computer, tapping, refreshing, and finally the article hits, and that is when all hell breaks loose. And we went into a full panic hiding.

And as you mentioned, that's when, my, we were in a, we were in hiding and my attorney set up another meeting with the FBI. We went back, my attorney, a criminal lawyer, had set it up and he said, I've never seen as he called, the level of heavy hitters that the FBI has flown in to meet with you and, attorneys from the Department of Commerce

[00:26:57] Pete Havel:

You must been thrilled and honored by that. 

[00:26:59] Ashley Yablon: Yeah, [00:27:00] exactly. And it was something out of a movie. Imagine a large conference room, you're standing there and the door opens and in. 12 attorneys, suits from the, F B I and each one of them handing you a business card and then the door shuts and then 12 more attorneys from the Department of Commerce and each one of them are lining the table.

And I'm at the other end and at the other end of the table as ahead of one of the head of the F B I who had flown in from DC. And my attorney explains, he said, you've ruined Ashley's life. You've ruined his life. He came to help you. He gave you all this information. Not only is he gonna lose his job, he possibly could lose his career.

Because who's gonna hire him? Yep. And he could possibly lose his license. You've ruined his life. And this is a part in the book, the head person from the FBI says, “we apologize.” We don't know how it got leaked. If this was the Mexican Zeta. Ashley would already be dead. If this was the Chinese mafia, he would already be dead.

It's the Chinese that's, they're about third on the list. And I remember I jumped up and “I said, [00:28:00] is that supposed to make me feel better?” and apologized? And everyone nervously laughed and that's when they offered. My wife and I, the Witness Protection Program, they offered what I refer to in the phone, as in the book as the bat phone, which is a phone number I could call at any time.

And FBI would be there in three minutes. We actually had to use that at one point, to do a sweep of my home. Just all kinds of protections

[00:28:24] Pete Havel: Because you’re being followed. You. You're being followed. Your wife is being followed in the us in your neighborhood. They're showing up at restaurants.

[00:28:32] Ashley Yablon: Yeah. Yeah. We were followed. I got death threats. Pages and pages of text messages. Death threats from ZTE. We're gonna kill you. We're gonna kill your family. We're going to kill your children. Your children's children went on and on. and, yeah, followed. We were followed. My wife was followed as she walked the dog by a car, around the neighborhood, and then we were followed at a restaurant and had to, as I mentioned in the book, had to use that, what I'd call the bat phone for the F B I to show up.

So it, [00:29:00] it spiraled and spiraled. and spiraled, all what I thought was the right thing. And, yeah, as I talked about in the book, doing the right thing, be careful what you wish for when you get your dream job and, how far will you go like I did to do the right thing because it was pure hell.

[00:29:17] Pete Havel: It, you pay a price for, for being a good person. So while this is going on, you've got a life to lead. You've got bills to pay. Apparently your, mortgage companies don't care too much about whether you're helping your country or anything like that. They've got, they've got their own business to run and.

Among those five attorneys, plus your wife and your circle. By the way, I love the story about your mom giving you advice on those things. But moms are, I've got one that always had some, some great, great thoughts as well. So that's just an aside. But you're still employed there.

You, are both a known whistleblower now, but, you've got HR issues because you're in a toxic workplace, man. You're in a toxic workplace. You've got, there's, [00:30:00] they're still paying you because they'd have hr, employment law issues. Describe you walking back in because you marched back into the office after that story.

In the national papers, and you're marching in like it's any other day. Obviously it wasn't, but talk about that scene. I can both visualize it as, well as have no idea of what it was like. So tell me about it. 

[00:30:19] Ashley Yablon: Yeah. I had a lot of scary things in my life and a lot of scary things that went on here.

The death threats, the being followed, the, you name it, but going back into that office was the worst. And that was at the advice one of my attorneys to preserve my HR employment claims. And we worked with the FBI. We had four FBI agents downstairs, waiting and would all that. But I made my way upstairs, on the elevator.

And as I was opening the door to the. The receptionist is on the phone. She jumps up and screams, "oh my God, it's him", and I round the corner. And you have to remember, it's just like any other office where it's all cubes in the middle, and then the [00:31:00] offices are on the, around the edges. And of course, wouldn't you know my office is in the very, very back.

But as I rounded that corner, and you have to remember, 80% of the staff is Chinese. All of 'em stand up in complete unison. The moment I turn that corner and you could hear a pin drop as, they're standing up watching me as I make my way to my office, I get to my office and it's covered. It's covered with yellow police.

Crime scenes eno. I take that off, I get in my office and that whiteboard that I mentioned, the six-by-six foot, it had been erased and then with a dry erase had been written in all caps and three exclamation points die. So I sit down and immediately I just thought, what am I doing? My staff is those three Chinese lawyers are gone.

They've taken the door off of their office and it was catty-corner to mine and they had brought a Chinese gentleman whose sole job was to monitor me and watch me all day long., my computer is gone, my phone is gone. And now I'm just sitting down and I'm looking at all this and I'm like, [00:32:00] no computer, no phone.

Die. And some, cent, century man staring at me. Was like Chinese water torture. And then they say, the CEO wants to see you. I'm like, oh, this is great. So I immediately go to the CEO, and he's like, why did you make up these lies? Why did you make up these lies? And I said I didn't lie, but I can't talk about it.

Call my lawyer. And I said I'm just here to work. And I said I don't have a laptop. And he said you know what? We can't afford to get you another one. . I said, we're a. Hundred-billion-dollar company. I can't have a laptop, we can't afford it. I said, I don't have a phone either. And he said, we can't afford that either

[00:32:33] Pete Havel:

Were you having fun with that part of the conversation? I'm sure you were scared to death, but were, was that almost a fun moment because you knew you weren't getting any of that? 

[00:32:43] Ashley Yablon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so finally I just turned to him and I said, I'm here to work and, I'm gonna figure it out.

And I did. I went back to my office and I would have to, you have got to remember, I'm still the GC, I'm still having to review contracts. I'm still having to manage litigation for the company across the us [00:33:00] and this is in 2012. So I'm, I didn't have a computer and I'm having to do it from my phone.

So I would literally look at emails and contracts, send them to, a neighbor, next to me in an office. Have him print it out and old school redline it, scan it back into the printer. And do it that way, but for 30 days, that's what I was working in this horrible environment and still getting the death threats while I'm working, still being followed, and still had a man standing there or sitting there with his arms folded, watching me.

All day long at the office. And finally, after 30 days, I, my, my wife says to me as I'm going to work, Ashley, you're in the toxic work environment. And here I am a lawyer dealing with this every day on the other end as the company attorney. It never dawned on me. I was just dealing with it when it happens to you.

And it was happening to me and it was horrible. And I'm like, you're right. So she made me, write a letter that morning. And I did, I wrote a letter like to HR [00:34:00] saying this is toxic, all these horrible things. And thank God I did because that very day on the 30th day is when they called me down to HR to tell me I was being put on administrative leave, because they didn't know what to do with me.

They couldn't fire me. They didn't really want me there working, but they didn't know what to do with me. So they put me on administrative leave. But before I left, I. Let me give you this. And it was my letter back to them telling them of all the ills. So it was a horrible time.

Horrible time. 

[00:34:27] Pete Havel: I get it.  I literally cannot imagine. So you eventually, you go through the process and I want to ask, all sorts of questions of lessons learned folks. Get this book, read it, learn both. Read an amazing story. But there's also a lot of. coulda shoulda wouldas in there. I read it both as a, as a leadership book, career protection book.

Obviously international intrigue and everything else, but you become a, a well long before then had be, had become a whistleblower. , [00:35:00] obviously from what you've talked about that killed you to do because not from the standpoint of being a patriotic, person and wanting to follow the law, but from the standpoint of you being an attorney, it, the risk you're there to protect your client and you find yourself at that, at that point of no return of, I've gotta do the right thing by the law and, moral code, everything else.

What, as you're looking back, Talk to folks because I'll give you an example. I was teaching in a college class a few months back and somebody had seen something in their job. Student pulled me aside and he said, I'm thinking about being a whistleblower. And I stopped him and I said, “I want you to understand what that life is like.”

Because your life changes after that. Talk to me about as both from your own personal experience as well as somebody to understand what happens in your career at that moment, how you're viewed everything else. Talk to me about that. 

[00:35:58] Ashley Yablon: Yeah. And again, I realize that [00:36:00] my book is the extreme, the very extreme, end of being a quote whistleblower and I'll get to whistleblower and all that stuff.

But what it meant to me was, as I talk about in the book, hiring all these lawyers, was expensive. And I ran through savings pretty quick and ended up selling everything I owned in order to going to do the right thing to be that whistleblower. So it wasn't. That was costly. It put a strain on a marriage when you don't have the finances and you're literally having garage sales to sell all your items.in order to fund this. And even after, put on leave. I can't go get a job because I have to stay there, but I can't, I'm caught in no man's land. When I finally left ZTE, what happened, being a whistleblower was for the next two and a half years, I couldn't even get… I couldn't get a job.

I couldn't even get an interview. I couldn't even get a call back. Here I am a pretty skilled, a young former general counsel of a multi-billion dollar company. And now I felt like [00:37:00] I had this, scarlet letter on me and I was, being blacklisted. No one would ever even return my calls.

Not even for entry-level positions. I wasn't gunning, just I was, I would take anything. So here I am. I couldn't work. I had no money and thank God my, I worked for my wife who was a lawyer and helped her. But if, but for that, I couldn't get anyone to even return a call. I couldn't even get a, an interview.

And I just chalked it up to, I guess it's because I'm that whistleblower and that no one wants that guy, if we hire him, he's going to come in like he did for, and, find all the ills of our company and we don't want that. And that's how I felt. Yeah. It's a horrible thing.

And real quick, a true whistleblower. is, I didn't qualify at the time of the laws to be a true whistleblower. At the time the laws were, Hey, you get to recover money of a whistleblower if it's a government contract. Mine wasn't a government contract. It was assisting our government, but it wasn't [00:38:00] a contract between the US government and some other company.

, you whistleblow and the US government was able to claw. What happened to ZTE and I talk about in the book, they paid the largest penalty that's ever been assessed against a company. They paid $2.5 billion, the largest penalty, and they paid it. And if I was a true whistleblower qualified, I would've recovered 25 to 30% of $2.5 billion.

I got $0 and ended up going into debt just to do the right thing by hiring all these lawyers, selling everything that I own. To your point, being a whistleblower, I don't know if that sounds, glamorous or, heroic. It's, be careful what you wish for because in my case it was quite damning.

[00:38:45] Pete Havel: Absolutely. And I'm someone that, just wrote a fictionalized book on the subject. And as I heard from one recruiter in an interview, we, speaking for her organization, we admire you, but we have concerns if we could [00:39:00] trust you. That summed it up for me as somebody that, did not fit that label either, but received all the prize package that went with it of, of consequences.

 Yeah, you show yourself as perhaps one of the most trustworthy people imaginable, the most ethical, but you also pay a price. Correct. Yep. And as you think about, we talked a little bit earlier about the, the pursuit of you by ZTE. I'm guessing you've thought a lot and you touched a little bit about it in the book.

What are some of the lessons that you've learned from this, from your experience on. HR side, the toxic workplace side, the things where you're thinking, man, I should have seen this coming. I'm smarter than this. And I ask you in that way, cuz I went through that experience as well.

There, there were red flags in your case, literal red flags, blowing in, in a lot of cases. And you both see 'em, but you moved on past them. What are some of those things that, that you learned about, that you'd say to [00:40:00] anybody in a tough environment or a very, a corrupted one, you name it.

What are some of those things that you learned? 

[00:40:07] Ashley Yablon: Yeah. You talk about red flags and I talk about this in the book. It's that, I think there was two themes of the book and that was, be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. Mine was that ambition. I was driven, this was going to be my job.

And, that ambition is great. Blind ambition is what you just mentioned, and that's what I had too. I didn't see those red flags, because I didn't want to see them. Yep. I didn't want to see all the bad. I wanted to, I wanted my dream to be what it was. And that was, I am one of the youngest general councils of a multi-billion dollar company, and I didn't see all the things that you're going to be the scapegoat and this is merely a suggestion and all these types of things, and I think what my advice and what I do now is, go in and have a more balanced view. Yeah, we have that ambition and that's great, but left unchecked, If left unchecked, [00:41:00] you're going to fall into those traps. So be willing to walk away. And I know that sounds easier said than done, especially when, all your finance is based on it.

So that's a big part of it. Learn. On a personal level, I learned a lot about myself. We all wonder what we would do if, put into a hard situation and it wasn't just losing a job. It was losing a career and all my finances and in my situation, potentially losing my life.

And because I was threatened with my life. And so we all questioned, what would we do? Would we still do the right thing? Would you still be willing to do the right thing if all that was on the line? And I learned a lot about myself, and I can honestly say I actually went through it. and I came out on the other end and I actually was willing to do that.

So I think that says a lot about me on a personal level. So I feel like I, I learned a lot about myself. Hopefully no one else has to go through a over the top type of experience like that. If you're a [00:42:00] whistleblower and if you do choose to do be sure that you have the resources around you.

Whether it's hr, obviously our HR and compliance department at ZTE wasn't a place or a safe haven to go, but hopefully at your company there is. Or, seek the counsel of an attorney. But again, go in with eyes wide open knowing what you're getting yourself. 

[00:42:19] Pete Havel: Know your culture, know who you're working for.

And as you found out the hard way, you found out that you are a person of great strength and character and sometimes in the wrong organization that can burn you. So you have to be soaking up information at all times. Let me close my questions with, with one last thing and that is, your wife plays a major role in your book and.

when I found myself in the challenge I was in, I didn't want to bring home the junk of my job every day. What I was witnessing, coming out with the drama, the stress of the day, and you played it better than I did. Talk about what seems to be, you weren't pulling any [00:43:00] punches.

You were letting your wife, the people you cared about, around, what was going on. Talk about if, for that person listening that's going through something stressful in the job. What did you do? And, and talk about a little bit about the value of that, because I, was impressed by it

[00:43:14] Ashley Yablon:

Yeah. I was fortunate that's also something, I talk about of lessons learned in the book at the end, and that is the value of family and friends. And you really learn who your true friends are, as well as the, integrity Yeah. Of, of your spouse and my wife was fantastic.

She's an attorney. And you gotta remember at the same time as I talk about in the book, she had just left and started her own law practice. So the both of us are in quite a pickle financially, and she was, this is what we have to do, this is what we have to do. And, she would get a, was writing checks and selling everything that she owned too.

All to do this. And so that's, that, that meant the world to me and, friends and, confidants that that were there to [00:44:00] support makes all the difference in the world. I couldn't imagine having to go through what I did, by yourself. So that, that made a huge difference. And.

I, I hope that someone has family or friends that they can lean on as well for something like that. 

[00:44:12] Pete Havel: Yes, sir. Absolutely. Huge. Ashley, I want to thank you for, for joining me today. Powerful interview. Ashley is the author of Standing Up to, China, how a whistleblower risked Everything for His Country.

Ashley, tell folks about how they can, Can contact you. Actually, let me do one other thing. Let me a ask you one other question. What are you doing these days? And, how is, yeah, let me ask you that and we'll, we'll 

[00:44:37] Ashley Yablon: wrap up. Yeah, sure. So eventually after not being able to get a job, I took some time off, ended up writing this book, but still wanted to practice and, really started my own law firm.

And my law firm is based on assisting. In-house legal departments on how they can maximize and optimize their departments, be compliant. That's a part of what I do as well, [00:45:00] but assist them on, being better. And, people ask me, am I, how am I doing? And I always say, I'm happier now than I ever have been.

And so I enjoy that. Yeah, the book was very therapeutic and I've done quite a bit of speeches on it so you can go. Find out about the book and find out about me, Yu website, which is ashley yolan.com. And from there you can actually buy the book. There's, I believe some you can get the first chapter for free, off the website.

And also I do speaking and there's, places on the website, that you can find out about how, for me to come and do speeches to groups, law firms and companies. And the book, I believe is Al. It's also available at Amazon and at Barnes and Noble. 

[00:45:41] Pete Havel: Fantastic. Ashley, thanks for, joining me today.

Folks, learn from this man. You pick up some wisdom when, when you are going through the fire, you get burned a little bit, but you also, get refined by it and, it took a lot of courage to do what you do. This has been the Gas Glue and Guardrails podcast. [00:46:00] Find me on, on Spotify, on Apple Podcast, wherever you find your, your online programs.

Appreciate you having us, as part of your day, and thank you so much and go put out some fires.