Overcoming Bitterness in Ministry | Part 2

Summary:
What happens when betrayal, bitterness, and burnout collide in ministry? In this raw and hope-filled episode of The Higher Pursuit Podcast, Cecily Lachapelle sits down with Ron and Denise Satrape to unpack what most leaders won’t say out loud. From heartbreak and codependency to confrontation and forgiveness, they share hard-won wisdom from the front lines of faith and leadership.

Ever felt like ministry hurt more than it healed? Or wondered if you could really repurpose pain into something good? This conversation doesn’t sugarcoat the struggle—but it will leave you with fresh hope and a practical path forward.

🎧 Tune in now—and after you listen, share this episode with a leader or friend who’s walking through a hard season. It might be just what they need.

Top 5 Takeaways: 

1. Bitterness can subtly eat away at our lives and hinder both personal and communal growth. Left unchecked, bitterness doesn't just stay hidden—it spreads, defiles, and robs us of spiritual fruitfulness.

2. Forgiveness is a daily, intentional journey—and leaders must both master and model it. Healing begins when we choose to forgive, bless those who wronged us, and invite God to show us what needs to change in us.

3. God can turn pain into purpose—if we surrender it. Repurposing bitterness into love is not only possible, it’s essential for true healing and growth.

4. Understanding and healing our own wounds is key to helping others. Hurt people hurt—but healed people heal. Ministry must come from a place of wholeness, not hidden brokenness.

5. Emotional health and healthy communication are vital for sustainable ministry. From codependency to confrontation, learning to love freely, speak honestly, and serve the Lord (not just people) is crucial for lasting impact.

This Week’s Action Step:
Set aside 15–30 minutes this week for honest reflection and prayer. Ask God:
“What do You want to show me about me in my bitter situation?”

Then write down any areas where bitterness, unforgiveness, or unrealistic expectations may be hiding in your heart—especially in your ministry or relationships.

Next, take one practical step toward healing:

• Forgive someone.
• Have a courageous conversation.
• Or simply surrender your pain to God and ask Him to begin repurposing it into something beautiful.

Remember: Healing is a journey, not a one-time decision. But every step counts.

Chapters: 

• 36:44 Codependency and Ministry
• 40:42 Repurposing Bitterness into Love
• 48:20 Transformative Lessons from Painful Seasons
• 50:55 Cultivating Healthy Team Dynamics
• 01:00:10 The Importance of Healthy Leadership
• 01:02:57 Navigating Conflict and Communication
• 01:09:07 Confrontation as a Path to Growth
• 01:15:03 Finding Purpose in Pain

Connect with Pastors Ron & Denise:

Transcript

Cecily Lachapelle (00:01.476)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Higher Pursuit podcast. I'm your host, Cecily LaChapelle, and it is great to be connecting with you again as we navigate some of the deeper issues of the heart and we come to the word of God for help and healing to repurpose our pain. So today we're gonna be talking about something that can impact our lives in a way that folks, it can derail us.

from God's purpose in our lives. It can destroy every good thing that God is trying to bless us with, like a cancer below the surface, subtly eating away every good thing that God is bringing. And often we don't even realize it's grip, and that is bitterness. And today I'm joined by two of my favorite people on the planet.

Ron & Denise Satrape (00:50.285)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (00:58.528)
my spiritual papa and mama, apostle Ron Satrape and his lovely wife, Denise Satrape. Hi guys!

Ron & Denise Satrape (01:08.106)
Hey, good morning! Hello!

Cecily Lachapelle (01:10.322)
we're so I'm so excited. Thank you so much for taking time because I know how busy you guys are. Well, before we get started in the chat, I'm going to let everybody know a little bit about you. And here is something about them. The Lord knew exactly what he was doing when he joined Ron and Denise together as a ministry team, because Denise has the apostolic gift of building structures of truth in people, making them healthy whole.

and fully dedicated to the Lord. And Ron has the apostolic gift of building human structures, teams that function effectively in ministry through defined processes and collaboration. Without integrity or fullness of heart, people who engage in team ministry often struggle to fulfill their calling. And in the process, they can be hurt and then in turn hurt other people because hurt people hurt, but healed people heal.

So team ministry, which is what they specialize in, multiplies healing, deliverance, and effective ministry within the body of Christ and extends it to the community where people live, work, and serve. So therefore, together, Ron and Denise bring powerful anointed ministry that strengthens from within and without, impacting the church and the world at large.

Ron and Denise are the apostolic leaders of Churches in the lead, of which I'm a part, and senior pastors of Christian Life Church in Elliott, Maine. They've been married for 53 years and have four children and six grandchildren. And I've known them for 30 years. They were the overseers of the church that I'm part of now. And then when our pastors left, they became the pastors there.

So I have known them for a big chunk of my life That's why they're so important to me. They have seen me through the highs, the lows. Half of the things I write about in the book, they were there as my spiritual papa and mama watching me walk through those, helping me walk through those things, giving wisdom, being a shoulder to cry on. So you guys have no idea how special these people are to me.

Cecily Lachapelle (03:28.852)
All right, so I'm gonna ask you guys now to chat and tell me in a nutshell, what are you most excited about what God is doing in your lives and in your ministry right now?

Ron & Denise Satrape (03:43.961)
think the thing I'm the most excited about is seeing people come into their own ministry-wise and then helping others to do the same. That as they have grown, they're actually bringing that same growth out of those that they lead. And there's nothing more fulfilling than that, I don't think. That's right. I think in this season of our life, we're just seeing so much fruit in the lives of the people in our congregation. I think our greatest joy is watching people step up.

Cecily Lachapelle (03:50.298)
Hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (04:10.052)
Mm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (04:13.932)
into the fullness of everything that God has for him. You know, so many times people think ministry is about the person that's standing behind the platform, never realizing that ministry is about the leaders equipping people so that everyday people can find their place and walk and move supernaturally in the gifts of God invading a world around us.

Cecily Lachapelle (04:23.3)
Come on.

Ron & Denise Satrape (04:39.444)
So little happens behind the pulpit. It's really what happens in the equipping of the saints and then releasing them with confidence to do what God has.

Cecily Lachapelle (04:49.006)
That is so key. I love how you just said very little of it happens behind the pulpit. That is so true. Being on the executive leadership team here at our church, I see how much goes on behind the scenes to give people the opportunity, the tools, the resources, the character, the integrity of the word of God, all of it. It's all for that one goal.

There's hours and hours and hours and prayer and fasting that goes behind preparing people to be able to launch out in the work of the ministry. I love that. All right, so today we are talking about how you all have repurposed bitterness. And I asked you to hit on this topic for a few reasons. First of all, you've walked me through

seasons of bitterness and you have dropped wisdom bombs in my life time and time again. Plus I hear it from the pulpit from you guys. I hear it in small groups, in leadership meetings. So I know you are experts in this. I've also heard stories where you have shared some of the bitter experiences that you've gone through. And I've also seen you help other ministers and pastors when they've gone through bitter seasons.

Ron & Denise Satrape (05:53.614)
Mm-hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (06:09.954)
So you literally are the Repurpose Your Bitterness gurus in my opinion. And so I would love it if you would just share, just take one particular situation in your life, in your ministry life that was bitter and let's talk about, let's just sort of pull that one apart and what you went through, how you felt when you were going through it, godly decisions you had to make to repurpose that pain.

and what the results are and the benefits to the people who follow you now. So if you could just describe the situation quickly, what happened?

Ron & Denise Satrape (06:46.926)
Well, I think probably one of the most challenging things that can happen to you in ministry is when somebody that you've raised up and trained betrays you. And not only do they betray you, but they talk to other people and say things that aren't true. They pretty much share their offense with somebody. Of course, they don't talk to you about it. And they influence a lot of other people. And then

Cecily Lachapelle (07:04.889)
Mmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (07:14.156)
you have a lot of people leave. And we had somebody on staff that that was really, we were really close with and she got offended and she ended up talking to other people behind the scenes. And then we had an exodus of about 50 people that left with her.

Cecily Lachapelle (07:29.316)
Wow, and how many people were in the church at that time? So like what percentage of the church was it?

Ron & Denise Satrape (07:34.264)
We had about 400 people in the church at the time. we had just taken on a lease that was about $18,000 a month. And so we were facing some challenges there. We had a Christian school and daycare, and we had a lot on our plate. And when you lose that many people, of course, she went after people that were contributors. Because if she's going to start her own ministry, then she needs people to support her ministry. So she ended up leaving and taking them with them.

Cecily Lachapelle (07:37.069)
Okay.

Cecily Lachapelle (07:54.938)
Hmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (08:03.241)
And it was a myth.

Cecily Lachapelle (08:03.45)
So she wasn't just leaving to leave out of anger like I'm taking my bat, my ball, and I'm going home. She was leaving to start a competitive ministry and taking people to be a part of her ministry.

Ron & Denise Satrape (08:18.008)
Well, she even went as far as taking all of our records of all the new people that had visited our church for the last several years and then calling them and telling them our church had moved to a different location.

Cecily Lachapelle (08:29.418)
Stop it! I never heard that part. What?

Ron & Denise Satrape (08:33.688)
I think Denise remembers that. Well, when you try to repurpose your pain, you try to have amnesia about the things that really.

Cecily Lachapelle (08:40.89)
Very true. That is very true. I found that with a

Ron & Denise Satrape (08:44.398)
So I would come to church, Cecily, and we'd have a low turnout. And I would think, you know, if someone so hadn't done that, we would have more people. And then I'd come to church and the attendance would be up. I would think, well, just think how high up we'd be if she didn't leave and take those people. It became the bitterness became the filter that I saw things through. And really, I couldn't appreciate what we had because I was so grieving what we lost.

Cecily Lachapelle (08:54.906)
Mmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (09:04.858)
There you go.

Cecily Lachapelle (09:14.124)
Yes. Yes.

Ron & Denise Satrape (09:15.214)
And I think when you experience a pain like that, it felt like it wasn't just what happened at church, but how it even affected your own personal life at home. You know, because when our finances were impacted, we had some weighty decisions to make, you know. And at the time I made a decision only because I felt like God's voice was so speaking to me. You you have those moments where God talks to you, you know where you are, as making the bed.

And the Lord said, Denise, if you'll resign, it'll silence a lot of talk and I'll take care of you. I knew it was his voice and a remedy, but at the same time it meant he was accustomed to my support and help. But I didn't want that single mom's get laid off because of what someone else did. you know, God supernaturally took care of us. Isn't it strange sometimes when you're obeying the voice of God, sometimes you feel like...

And what did I do wrong that I'm now separated from everything that I was connected to? And yet, God, ways are so much not ours and how we work things out.

Cecily Lachapelle (10:27.202)
Wow, so you were in a season that, similar to a season that I wrote about in the book, where there's one major hit, but then that major hit is like ripples, like throwing a boulder into a lake, where all the ripple effect was another hit to another hit to another hit. You've got the betrayal, then you've got the financial impact, then you have the fact that you now have to go get a job, which means you can't be the support

person that everybody was used to you having and your whole schedule, your whole lives are turned upside down. That is crazy.

Ron & Denise Satrape (11:06.082)
Well, part of the accusation from the person that left was that we were in it for what we could get out of it. So Denise going, stepping down and getting a job, it made up the difference of what we lost financially. It didn't make all of it up, but it made a chunk of it up. And so then they could no longer say that we're in it for what we can get out of it, especially when the job she got paid three times as much as she was making at the church.

Cecily Lachapelle (11:11.931)
I know.

Cecily Lachapelle (11:33.538)
Right, right. Yeah, that completely dismantled the lie of the enemy there, that's for sure.

Ron & Denise Satrape (11:36.494)
Yeah. Because when I made a change, we did have to make a couple of smaller changes financially. You know, we had a big lease. so, you know, as pastors, my first thought is, how do we take care of those that have been that are entrusting to us certain things? They shouldn't have had to pay a price because somebody else created a scenario. But at the same time, was, yeah, it was a big life change for us.

Cecily Lachapelle (11:48.151)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (11:56.89)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (12:06.126)
I was now working in Boston every day, commuting. My kids were used to having me around. Ron was used to it. And I learned a whole lot, but it was a very different season. So for me, it was like I lost my wife partner in the ministry, and the people that loved. In effect, my family and the kids. Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (12:18.852)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (12:26.778)
Yeah. When we had talked, my gosh, when we had talked in our conversation last week, Pastor Denise, you had said that you felt like you were sitting in an ash heap, feeling like, God, what did I do wrong? Can you talk to us about those feelings?

Ron & Denise Satrape (12:42.51)
Mm-hmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (12:49.262)
Yes. I think sometimes if we're sensitive and listening to God, we can see what's coming on the horizon. I always thought seeing what's on the horizon was so that I could prevent it. And so as I raised all the warning flags and the different concerns, and yet that didn't happen, I could remember just getting in the place of just really struggling with bitterness in my heart and frustration and disappointment.

Cecily Lachapelle (13:02.882)
Hmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (13:17.324)
not just with the person who did this, but God, I don't understand this. Why would you show this to me? And I can remember one day saying to the Lord, can we just kind of get this straight? Like, they'll get to leave, but I have to stay in the ash heap of this. It's like, you know, the fire went and everybody else leaves the fire and I'm staying in it. And I couldn't believe when the Lord said, Denise, what if I needed that to burn up?

And I was like, excuse me, that didn't fit my thought. He said, what if where I'm trying to take you and to teach you and to show you meant those things needed to go up in flames and find out how I can make beauty out of ashes. And I understand that we all have choices in it, but how God can take something like that and make something good. I couldn't at the time fathom it.

Cecily Lachapelle (14:04.058)
awesome.

Cecily Lachapelle (14:12.25)
Yes. Yes.

Ron & Denise Satrape (14:14.274)
Sometimes we think that education comes from all the gains we make in life. We don't realize how important the losses are to us learning and growing and becoming more. Sometimes we look at the outward and we measure life by how things are going outwardly, not realizing that some of those things have to change for there to be an increase inwardly. And I think that that's the thing that...

Cecily Lachapelle (14:23.45)
Hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (14:37.028)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (14:38.728)
Oftentimes we don't have that agenda. We have the outside agenda, not the inside agenda. That's why bitterness affects us so much is because it affects the inside agenda.

Cecily Lachapelle (14:43.898)
and

Cecily Lachapelle (14:48.878)
Yes, yes. Our emotions get so wrapped up in that justifiable hurt. you had mentioned, Pastor Ron, you said that that justifiable hurt, when you sit there and you know that you're justified in your bitterness, it becomes a hook that gets inside of us. And you mentioned that our emotions can get so consumed by it that we miss

Ron & Denise Satrape (14:50.734)
I realized how much that blocked me, you know.

Ron & Denise Satrape (14:58.318)
Mm-hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (15:18.574)
those deeper hooks of bitterness. So you started talking about it. What are some of the deeper hooks that you both discovered were taking root in your hearts during this time?

Ron & Denise Satrape (15:30.83)
Well, I think one of the things that God was dealing with me about is I care too much about what people thought about me.

Cecily Lachapelle (15:38.752)
Wow.

Ron & Denise Satrape (15:40.126)
And there's only one cure for people addiction, and that's people disapproval. And when you have someone leaving saying bad things about you, and you find out maybe your reputation meant more than it should to you, and that we should be more concerned about how God sees us, and that steadies the boat.

Cecily Lachapelle (15:47.223)
Yeah.

Right?

Ron & Denise Satrape (16:02.754)
But as long as we're fearful that she's going to convince other people, we're going to lose more people, more people are not going to like us. And instead of really, unless the Lord builds the house, they that labor, labor in vain, we got to trust that he's building more than anyone can tear down.

Cecily Lachapelle (16:03.481)
word.

Cecily Lachapelle (16:18.842)
Oh, that is so good. Yes, I, yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (16:21.292)
And I think the subtle lie also is how the enemy hopes that bitterness undermines your trust in God. And so, you know, here we are believers, we're going to serve him forever. Amen. Till death do we part. But we don't realize that those little hooks that create that insecurity or that disappointment that we might have toward God is really designed to get us to back away from our trust from him.

Cecily Lachapelle (16:30.714)
Mmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (16:51.042)
And so now we're trying to lean to our own reasoning or it creates a hook. Now that fear has a greater, like it changes your filter. And all of a sudden you hear and see things people say from a different perspective. And they may not have been meaning anything at all connected to it, but it's almost like if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, it must be another betrayal waiting for you. Now here's another one of the hooks, especially is when that happened, you're thinking I'm not letting anybody else get close to

Cecily Lachapelle (16:54.478)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (17:21.178)
There you go.

Ron & Denise Satrape (17:21.25)
because look what happens when they get close to you. They lie about you. People know they're close to you, so they believe the things that they say. And that's where the Lord really had to get me to forgive and realize God can heal me more than anyone can hurt me. I don't need to be isolated out of fear that I'm gonna be hurt. I need to be really trusting the Lord that, yeah, you're gonna get hurt, but God can heal you.

Cecily Lachapelle (17:45.529)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (17:46.432)
I could have made a decision that would have isolated me permanently in ministry and not had people that are close like we have now.

Cecily Lachapelle (17:52.718)
Yes. And you know what? I just want to repeat that. This is what I'm talking about, y'all. When I say that my pastors dropped these wisdom bombs, he said, and I wanted to repeat it, that God can heal you more than man can hurt you. That is so important. And the only way that we can really get a revelation like that and that we can actually allow that truth to work in our heart is by having that time with the Lord.

and being able to hear his voice. I hope you all are hearing the fact that my pastors could not have repurposed this pain if they didn't hear the voice of the Lord. Because how else would apostle Ron have known, I'm dealing with a people pleasing addiction or pastor Denise saying, hearing at her heart, I need to go get a job. These are things that were not in their purview at all until this situation came up.

This situation allowed God to do a much deeper work on the inside of them that would not have happened if this situation didn't play out the way it did. And that folks is how God takes and works all things together for our good. He works all things. Not that all things are good like we've talked about on this podcast before, but he can work all things, the good, the bad and the ugly.

for our good, for those who are called according to his purpose and who love him. So I'm sure you had a temptation, Apostle Ron, to respond in kind when you were deeply hurt. You must have had opportunities to lash out at this woman or lash out at the people that left.

Can you share your experience? I mean, it's a human urge. It's natural to feel that way or we don't want to do it.

Ron & Denise Satrape (19:50.894)
Well, the first thing I did was talk to my pastor. And I told him what was going on. And I told him some of the things that were being said. And he said to me, I'll never forget this. said, Ron, if people are talking bad about you and you're not talking bad about them, people figure it out. And that's when I said, you know, I'm not going to respond to the negativity.

Cecily Lachapelle (19:56.439)
good.

Cecily Lachapelle (20:14.656)
Amen. Amen.

Ron & Denise Satrape (20:20.578)
that she's saying, and I'm going to forgive her as difficult as it is. And really, I think that when you respond, you're just stirring, without wood, the fire goes out and you're just throwing a log on there. Every one of us, we have a bucket. And when there's a fire, we can either put water in that bucket or gasoline in that bucket. And so I made up my mind, I'm to put some water in that bucket. I'm not going to contribute to all the...

Cecily Lachapelle (20:26.244)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (20:32.954)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (20:49.398)
all that negativity.

Cecily Lachapelle (20:51.524)
Wow, come on. think people on the Dr. Phil show need to hear stuff like that.

Ron & Denise Satrape (20:56.174)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that was such a purposeful decision. You know what Sometimes people think, oh, that must have been easy. No, it wasn't. No. Some days, you know, the enemy made sure you heard everything that was being said, and then you had to have a resolve. You know, I know whom I believed and then persuaded he is able. But sometimes you really just had to preach to yourself the truth, because I think

Cecily Lachapelle (21:01.658)
Thank you.

Cecily Lachapelle (21:23.14)
Mm-hmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (21:25.358)
on one of those other hooks of bitterness is resentment that can suddenly get in and then you begin to start resenting not just the person but your life. you can feel like Job's wife, look at it, we're serving God, we're doing all this, why don't you just crawl in a hole and die? And you know, really had to, I had to learn that resentment creates barrenness in my life. This person, Sessley, would come to every

Cecily Lachapelle (21:52.662)
and

Ron & Denise Satrape (21:54.658)
baby shower, every wedding shower, every get together, she would show up and try to do things for the people, keep contacts with the people. And so she shows up at a shower that we were invited to that we've been invited to. And I go over and I and I give her a hug and she growls and bites me in the neck.

Cecily Lachapelle (22:04.906)
Wow.

Cecily Lachapelle (22:16.602)
Folks, you can't make this up. Come on.

Ron & Denise Satrape (22:18.534)
It was giving me every opportunity to be offended with this person and I didn't say anything and the host of the shower said to me, what just happened? I saw something happen. What happened? What'd do? I said, she bit me in the neck. I'm going to kick her out right now. I said, no, you're not. said, she'll be the victim and she'll say that something that I did to provoke that. Nope. I'm don't say anything. We're just going to take the fire out of this thing. Yeah. And boy, was hard for them, they, but they did.

Cecily Lachapelle (22:33.466)
Mmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (22:45.774)
Yes.

L.

Ron & Denise Satrape (22:48.48)
And it was several years later, she was in the hospital and the Lord told me to visit her. And so I walked in there and she said, Pastor Ron, Pastor Ron, what are you doing here? I said, well, I came to pray for you. Why would you do that? I said, because I care about you. And so I prayed for her and then we would invite her to some of the different things that we would have regionally and stuff. And we did everything that we could.

Cecily Lachapelle (23:00.378)
Mmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (23:15.01)
to show love because anybody can love people that love you. It's loving your enemies that we need practice, lots of practice. And she gave us practice.

Cecily Lachapelle (23:19.182)
There you go.

Cecily Lachapelle (23:24.506)
Yeah, absolutely. And when we respond in kind to those people and we're leaders, it just undermines people's trust in us. Because if they see us falling to the depth of someone who hurts us, then how can they trust that the Word of God is making us any different than anybody else on the street?

Ron & Denise Satrape (23:37.802)
Okay.

Cecily Lachapelle (23:54.264)
We have to demonstrate that. I'm sure you have had multiple ministers in this exact kind of a situation because ministry really puts you sort of in the firing line for betrayal and lies and people talking about you and financial hardship caused by division. I mean, have you been able to share this story and this testimony with ministers and what difference has it made in their lives?

Ron & Denise Satrape (24:21.23)
Well, had a couple that we just ministered to recently that had split in their church. So we were able to share from that experience what God did in us through that. Don't just look at the people that don't let your weaknesses hide behind their sins. What is it God wants you to learn and grow through this situation? And I think there was a lot to learn. And I think what was so powerful is number one, we became a safe place.

Cecily Lachapelle (24:26.937)
man.

Cecily Lachapelle (24:33.102)
Hmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (24:50.742)
where they could vent their frustration, their fears, their disappointment, their anger. And I can just remember hearing the wife, and as she just in agonizing tears, just cried out the unfairness of it all. And to have the empathy where you can give them voice, but then to be able to say, I totally validate that. Let me help you, because I remember crying.

Cecily Lachapelle (24:55.492)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (25:20.142)
those tears, saying those things. But let me help you how God can pull you out of this instead of letting the enemy use it as a hook to bury you. You know what I mean? And so being able to offer the empathy, the support, the validation that people need when they're going through that pain, but then giving them a hand to pull them up out of it so they don't stay in that pit because I said, you know what the enemy devised for your demise?

Cecily Lachapelle (25:22.785)
us.

Cecily Lachapelle (25:37.754)
Mmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (25:47.662)
He can, God can turn around for you good if you make a decision on how you're going to. And Ron and I just said, you can look at all what they're doing, but you need to stop and sit down and saying, God, if the steps of a right man are ordered by the Lord, what do you know about this situation that I don't know yet? And what do you want to show me about me that I need to learn so I can take this and recycle it into something good?

Cecily Lachapelle (26:05.05)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (26:17.804)
repurpose it for lack of a better word. And so I think that's what we've had to do is each time we got hit up after you get your breath from getting sucker punched, we've had to humbly go back and say, okay, what is it you want to teach me? Not him, not everybody else, but what do want to show me about me and this scenario? That was the only way I was able to climb out of it was to ask him, what part can I learn?

Cecily Lachapelle (26:19.345)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (26:43.296)
I think one of the things that we don't realize when you're a leader or you're a pastor is that there are things that you have to overcome with God's help before the rest of the people following your leadership or they're in your congregation are ever going to be able to, you know, repurpose their grief and repurpose their pain. They have to learn it from somebody. So we have to be hurt so that they can learn. Well, what do I do when I'm hurt? Well, this is what the pastor did.

Cecily Lachapelle (27:02.062)
right.

Cecily Lachapelle (27:08.206)
Mm-hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (27:11.864)
Yes. Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (27:12.942)
And so you're never going to have real good solid community in your ministry and in your church and in your organization if you don't learn to master forgiveness and model it. I think that that's what people need. They don't just need a teaching, they need a story. What happened to you? How did you deal with it? I remember one teaching from Chip Ingram in his...

Cecily Lachapelle (27:34.426)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (27:41.398)
I forgot the name of his book, but growing spiritually. Anyway, being a woman's 12th Christian, he said there's three phases to forgiveness. He said the decision you make and he said, and then the journey you take by making a decision every single day, especially when the enemy wants to hit you. No, no, I made a decision. I gave this to God. I decided the cross was more than enough. And then he said, and then you wake up that day and you find them forgiven. But I can remember

Something he said and he brought out of the scripture that's kind of nailed me because you know such an advocate of teaching people to walk in forgiveness But then he said yes, I want you to bless those That despitefully use you and he said the Bible tells us to bless those that treat us wrong And I can remember reading it because in times past I learned to forgive But then I dismissed and moved on I didn't think you were part of my everyday thought

Cecily Lachapelle (28:35.352)
Yes.

Ron & Denise Satrape (28:38.274)
I decided I didn't entertain it. thought I was doing good. And all of a sudden he said, I the Lord said to me, I called you to bless them, not dismiss them.

Cecily Lachapelle (28:47.162)
Ooh, say that again.

Ron & Denise Satrape (28:49.614)
Call that's right. I called you to bless him and not to dismiss him. I just thought man. I was doing a good job I forget I moved on I didn't talk about them I didn't pay no mind and the Lord said well, I didn't ask you to dismiss I asked you to bless So in that spiritual atmosphere of just praying for those not just to forgive them, but Lord bless them Isn't it maybe sometimes we'll forgive people

Cecily Lachapelle (28:55.128)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (29:05.53)
Woo!

Cecily Lachapelle (29:15.382)
Yes.

Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (29:18.328)
We just don't want to see them doing really good because somehow or another we want them to get their just due. And then we realize if we all got our just due, none of us would survive. Sometimes we're unconsciously abandoning them, punish them by dismissing them. And that's where God wants us to realize that, you know, we need to show what God is like. He doesn't dismiss people. He loves people regardless of how they behave. Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (29:23.674)
rest.

Cecily Lachapelle (29:33.658)
Sure. Yeah.

Mmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (29:43.372)
Yes. Yeah. Right. I mean, what did he do with Jesus? What did Jesus do with Judas? The night he knew he was going to be betrayed, he still had him at the Passover meal and he still washed his feet. He still gave him every opportunity until the last second. And he was probably praying for him as well. Yeah. I mean, it's funny when we talk about bitterness, I mean, a lot of times we talk about the bitter root.

Ron & Denise Satrape (29:51.384)
Yeah?

Ron & Denise Satrape (29:58.402)
That's right. That's right.

Cecily Lachapelle (30:13.058)
And of course that makes me think of gardening. And I have this one little side garden next to the house. It's not something you can really see from the road. So I pay very little attention to this garden. And one year I thought it would be a great idea if I planted mint because I love mint and my iced tea. Except the problem is that mint is invasive. And so I had all these other pretty things like irises and things like that planted there. Eventually the mint took over the whole garden because

I didn't stay on top of keeping the mint controlled. I thought I could control it and keep it in one little spot, but it's a rhizome. And those roots went deep under the ground and popped up all over the place to the point that the only way that I could recapture that garden was for John and I to dig the whole thing out. And it meant I lost my good bulbs.

Ron & Denise Satrape (30:53.88)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (31:09.87)
the ones I liked, these beautiful irises that were like this, like tissue paper, baby pink. I've never seen a color like that before. And so I had to pull them out and I had to pull out everything to get a blank slate again. So I could have left that garden blank and said that I'm done with gardening, forget it. I'm just gonna leave this like a little dirt thing here. But I decided, no, of course I have this space, it gets great sun.

Ron & Denise Satrape (31:14.2)
mmmm

Cecily Lachapelle (31:38.69)
So then I went in and purposefully planted some hydrangeas that would do really well in that soil. And to your point of once we pull up that bitterness, we could walk away from that and just say, I dismiss you, I'm done with you garden. Like I'm done with this relationship. Or we can purposefully plant seeds of love and allow that to be cultivated in our heart for sure. And hopefully in the heart.

of the other person at some point.

Ron & Denise Satrape (32:11.886)
couldn't get over your analogy. Because while you were saying that, just felt like the Spirit of the Lord said, isn't that amazing? The invasive roots of mint. And yet, isn't it tasty, the little leaves, how it can add a little bit of flavor to your life? And you think it's just sweet, just nice, never realizing sometimes that dainty morsel. Doesn't the scripture says don't partake of tail-bearing? Because it'll

Cecily Lachapelle (32:21.402)
Hmm.

Come on.

Ron & Denise Satrape (32:39.062)
It'll bury deep within you. And at first it might taste good that you're in on the scoop or you know this situation. But you never even realize the entrance of that myth now created an atmosphere for the root to keep growing. And you have no idea where bitterness, where it says it can defile many, can happen. But it starts out sometimes thinking, it's not so bad. You know, the plant that they're talking about in the Bible, the root of bitterness, was actually a predatory plant. And it would grow.

Cecily Lachapelle (32:49.914)
Hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (33:02.074)
This is Teeny Plant.

Ron & Denise Satrape (33:09.13)
and it had thorns and everything on it and animals would get trapped in it and couldn't escape and they would starve to death and they would die and that plant fed off of the decay of that dying animal became like fertilizer to the plant. And that's what bitterness does is it traps us. It isn't just a matter of being kind to somebody else. This is good for other people. It's good for us.

Cecily Lachapelle (33:25.626)
you

Cecily Lachapelle (33:32.474)
you

Ron & Denise Satrape (33:36.234)
If not, we end up spending all of our thought life on feeding on the decay of something that happened that hurt us. It shouldn't have hurt us this much, but because we keep revisiting the crime scene, we keep getting re-injured by the offense until a little offense becomes life consuming.

Cecily Lachapelle (33:51.799)
and

Absolutely, absolutely. Just like I said in the introduction, it seems subtle. It doesn't seem like it's a big deal at first, but it will. It's a cancer. It wants to eat every good thing, every blessing in our lives. And that's why it's so imperative for every believer, not just pastors, not just leaders, but for every believer to look internally and ask the Holy Spirit, test me and try me and see if there be any wicked way in me. Show me, Lord.

Ron & Denise Satrape (34:05.742)
Mm-hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (34:24.194)
if I'm still harboring bitterness, because here's another crazy thing about that mint is in the fall, it would kind of die down. I could chop it down and think I was having victory over it because I couldn't see it. But given the right atmosphere, given the right environment, a little sun, a little rain, and all of a sudden, there's that thing overtaking my garden again. We can think that we're in a season where

Ron & Denise Satrape (34:38.606)
you

Ron & Denise Satrape (34:48.872)
Isn't that true?

Cecily Lachapelle (34:53.402)
I've got victory over this. I'm not completely consumed with thoughts of how I would like to run that person over with my car or, you know, wish that they experience bankruptcy or whatever. I'm not there anymore. Now I'm just not thinking about them. But is that truly being delivered? Have we truly pulled up every little rootlet of bitterness because it's just waiting for the right environment to spring back to life?

And I can imagine that it's easy, especially when you're in ministry. Let me see how I can explain this. You're not just feeling threatened personally, because yes, you were attacked and you were threatened personally, but the whole reason you went into ministry was to bless other people. So there must have been that mama bear, papa bear feeling towards this individual.

Ron & Denise Satrape (35:43.947)
So.

Cecily Lachapelle (35:50.874)
Oh, you are not going to break up this church, cause us to go down, impact the lives of people, steal people away into bitterness and deception. These people that we are giving our lives for, and you're gonna lie to them and deceive them come in here like Satan in the garden? I mean, that must have been a whole nother level of bitterness. Talk about that for a bit.

Ron & Denise Satrape (36:17.336)
I think it's important to realize that we gotta quit serving people in ministry. We need to serve the Lord. When you serve people, then you feel they're obligated. When you do things for people out of serving the Lord, do all things as unto the Lord, if they don't respond, then you don't get bitter. You don't get upset because you don't feel appreciated and all that, and you don't last long term.

Cecily Lachapelle (36:22.574)
Hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (36:29.358)
Yep.

Cecily Lachapelle (36:38.362)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (36:41.839)
Right.

Ron & Denise Satrape (36:44.61)
That's why the scripture says, do all things as unto the Lord. And if you're offended with somebody, then that's where you discover, I wasn't doing that as unto the Lord. I was doing that to be liked. I was doing that for people to think I was successful. I was doing that to get approval. And that's the good that can come out of God bringing that to the surface. But you're right, Cecily. There was those times where those feelings were very real. It's like,

Cecily Lachapelle (36:48.282)
Hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (36:55.418)
And it's

Cecily Lachapelle (37:02.329)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (37:14.284)
You know, if you really take ownership of the responsibility God gives you over ministry, you know, that protective side of you wants to just jump in and, and silence all and fix it all. And, know, it's in that journey. We discovered the codependency that needed to get broken in us because, you know, he, he didn't design this to fix everything. He's the fixer. And at the same time, you know, why you wanted to.

Cecily Lachapelle (37:34.564)
Come on.

Ron & Denise Satrape (37:44.495)
well, you could start finding out what's really on the inside of you. You know what I mean? It's like, am I doing this out of protection for them or am I doing it out of protection for myself saying I'm protecting them? Because there again, it's reputation. Ron learned a lesson early on in ministry that little did we know was going to repeat itself again. But just when we're in ministry, just a few years, and he was ministering to a couple that had

got involved in an unhealthy relationship together and they both were leaders married to separate spouses and Ron brought the man in, began to talk to him about it but because love covers he didn't want to expose their sin to everyone and so he suggested that the both of them take some time out of leadership while they worked on their issues and that he would be happy to help them but because they were quote-unquote influential people they didn't want anyone to think differently of them for stepping down.

Cecily Lachapelle (38:28.004)
Mm-hmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (38:43.758)
So they began to just tell all kinds of just trash on Ron. Well, it wasn't, it wasn't just that they wanted to trash me. So if anything, if I said anything about them being involved, then people wouldn't believe me because they could discredit with me with the things that they were saying and saying that I was offended with them. And I can remember early on as a wife, like you're attacking my guy, you know, he's integrity. I mean, he's doing this and I'm going, but Ron.

Cecily Lachapelle (38:43.854)
Cecily Lachapelle (38:54.552)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Ron & Denise Satrape (39:10.872)
Don't you understand? Why don't you tell the people the truth? What's happening? It was truth. And he said to me the simple statement that stuck with me. And he said, I'm not going to air out somebody else's dirty laundry so someone won't notice mine. And he said, if God can't take care of me in this and fight for me, I guess I'm in the wrong position.

Cecily Lachapelle (39:26.426)
Hmm

Cecily Lachapelle (39:36.132)
Wow.

Ron & Denise Satrape (39:37.002)
And that was very like third, fourth year in ministry. And it was so profound because I remember I was pregnant. was like, what? You know another thing too, Cecily. Anybody else that has got involved in immorality or unfaithfulness, they would never come to me because they wouldn't think I could keep a confidence. If you told them. That shuts the door, potential ministry, to people that really need it, that could be eternally consequential.

Cecily Lachapelle (39:58.82)
Yes. Yes.

Mm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (40:06.782)
And so us maintaining our integrity and not sacrificing on the altar of being liked, that's important. My dad used to say when people get a man, he said, the wrath of God's about to fall on you in the form of me. That's how you're feeling about that time, but you can't do it. You can't act on that.

Cecily Lachapelle (40:13.22)
Yeah, yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (40:25.946)
No, no. And talk to us about the link between codependency and become like breaking codependency and being able to repurpose bitterness.

Ron & Denise Satrape (40:42.254)
Well, think that codependency is like a false love. When we love somebody, we do things for them and invest in them with no strings attached, no hook in it. You know, I'm going to do something for you now you owe me. That's codependency. So what I'm doing for you, then basically I'm expecting you to do for me. It may not be said, but that's what the expectation is. And then when they don't do back for you.

Cecily Lachapelle (40:47.93)
Mmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (40:54.97)
Mmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (41:00.121)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (41:11.138)
then you become, it offends you and then you've like, the least they could do was this, know, like a husband comes home from working all day and dinner's not ready. And so he says to his wife, you know, I work hard all day long, the least you can do is have dinner ready for me when I get home. Well, she probably didn't know that when he went off to work, he was obligating her to making dinner.

Cecily Lachapelle (41:18.842)
Hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (41:23.642)
Mm-hmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (41:35.168)
And so now it's no longer love making an investment in each other. It's who can in debt the other so that I can get what I want. Now here's the problem. When you get what you want, now you're mad at him. Why couldn't you do that for me? Cause you love me, not cause you owe me. And so it's this love hate type of a dynamic that takes place in codependency. And that's where we have to learn to do for people with, you know, use the debit card relationally, don't use the credit card.

Cecily Lachapelle (41:39.3)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (41:55.738)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (42:04.941)
where I'm going to do this for you, but now you're going to have to pay me back. End of the month, the statement comes in and you've got to pay this debt. And the Bible said, do nothing for no one out of debt. Love one another. Own only in nothing. And so with codependency, pastors, hear them say, well, the people you do the most for leave. And I've said to them, yeah, well, they probably

Cecily Lachapelle (42:13.402)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (42:18.458)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (42:22.169)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (42:30.688)
racked up so much relational debt, had to file relational bankruptcy and go to church somewhere else and start over. And it was like a little over their head. I'm like, start doing things for people by investing in them because there's no hundredfold return on lending. And that's what you're doing in codependency. And that's why you're so bitter with the outcome. Where if you're investing in somebody

Cecily Lachapelle (42:37.494)
My hand. Ow!

Cecily Lachapelle (42:49.656)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (42:55.13)
Mmm. Mmm. Yes.

Ron & Denise Satrape (42:59.15)
You're not looking for them for the return. You're looking to God. I think, I think in all of those scenarios, I think what the Holy Spirit did for us, because we kept choosing. I mean, some days better than others. Teach me, what can I learn about me in the process? And maybe that's why we're so committed here at CLC to see people get healthy and whole. Because in a relationship, the only thing I can change is me.

I can't change that other person. But as long as I'm looking at all of what they're not doing, I can't see, you know, like one counsel said, what's your 5 %? But because the only thing I can work on is mine. And I realized in this whole journey of forgiving, I had to remember that by the grace of God, there go I. And that I've done my share of intentionally and unintentionally inflicting heart.

Cecily Lachapelle (43:28.59)
Yes, that's right.

Ron & Denise Satrape (43:58.412)
You know, and I have to ask myself, I, how do I want them to treat me? And you know what mean? And if I'm, if I'm indebted them, then what I reap, I'm sowing too. And I also realized how much my trust in God, I realized, do I trust God to the ability that I can control things or do I, do I really trust him when I'm not in control? You know, codependency shows up to like in your vision.

Cecily Lachapelle (44:09.53)
you

Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (44:23.576)
Yes.

Ron & Denise Satrape (44:26.904)
Well, what's what is your vision? My vision is to have so much land and so many buildings and so many programs and so many people. And I've had to talk to pastors and say, is your fit? your vision about what you're doing or is it about what you're becoming?

Cecily Lachapelle (44:42.382)
Mmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (44:43.628)
Is your vision to build a community where people really belong, where people really believe God and they exercise their faith publicly, where people can see that? your vision for people to build other people up? Is it to build the kingdom of God or is it to build your kingdom? And I think that codependency is what sabotages a lot of people, whether it's in ministry or in business, whatever we do, we have to learn to be investors, not in debtors.

Cecily Lachapelle (45:09.114)
Yeah. And I think one of the ways we do that is by choosing to love people because the Word tells us to love them, not because they always deserve it. And that's one of the biggest lessons that I know that I had to learn because like back to your point, Pastor Denise, when you dismiss a relationship rather than bless it, you're saying, I'm giving you what you deserve, being ignored.

Ron & Denise Satrape (45:36.546)
Yeah, yep.

Cecily Lachapelle (45:37.134)
You know, it is actually probably in our heart, we probably feel that's more than they deserve. But we feel like that's you're lucky I'm just ignoring you that I've just dismissed you. But the worst is first of all.

Ron & Denise Satrape (45:41.73)
Yeah, yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (45:47.566)
Sometimes, sometimes we don't even realize that we're walking out and dismissal. We're just thinking, I'm doing really good. I'm not that entertain my thoughts. I'm not putting in my hand in my heart. I'm not, you know, talking bad about them and I forgave them. Never realizing that love blesses. It doesn't just dismiss. You know, sometimes we dismiss people on purpose and other times I realized how ignorant I was because I only fulfilled.

Cecily Lachapelle (46:07.886)
Yes.

Ron & Denise Satrape (46:16.184)
part of what God wanted by not blessing them. Yeah, I forgave, I chose to move on. I'm saying I'm learn my lesson, but I didn't realize, I didn't release God's love over them in spite of that. You know what saying? Yeah, I remember when we started our first church and there was a couple in the sending church that we attended that we became friends with.

Cecily Lachapelle (46:33.474)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (46:42.206)
And I ended up getting a job. She was having to step down because she was pregnant. And so I got her job as a man managing a dollar store. Her husband was managing a dollar store. Well, I had a retail background and I turned that inventory over and got a lot of corporate attention. And so she was hearing about it and her husband was hearing about it from the regional manager. And they were thinking about me for to become a regional manager. But I was only to work in the job until to make a living so I could do my ministry. And so they started telling

lies about us. They were saying I was stealing from the company. I come to work one day and all the corporate offices that my off is that my church at my store and they're doing an inventory to find out how much I've stolen from them and come when they got done and it was more inventory than what there wasn't less because I stole it. There was actually more and and and and then I would go to church and I would see them talking to other people bad about us and then when we left and went to start

a church in Thorsby, Alabama, God ended up bringing us back to pass to that home church. I said, well, we're so and so. they said, well, they're they quit coming to church. They're about to lose their home. And so I took an offering up and got them caught up on their mortgage. And the next day, she comes, knocks on my. Well, first he shows up at their house with an offering and they were shocked as to what are you doing here? Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (47:48.591)
Wow.

Cecily Lachapelle (47:54.84)
wow.

Cecily Lachapelle (47:59.31)
Yeah, there you go.

Cecily Lachapelle (48:10.596)
Yeah.

Ron & Denise Satrape (48:11.998)
And then she comes the next morning and she's got a bowl of water and a towel. She just crying, weeping to wash my feet. And then we ended up getting her a job, you know, teaching in our, in our school. And that really helped him to get things turned around. But it's amazing how much if you will do something kind for somebody, they just don't, it blows them away. And it really turned the whole situation around. Were we ever friends again? No.

Cecily Lachapelle (48:20.515)
Wow.

Cecily Lachapelle (48:25.914)
one.

Cecily Lachapelle (48:36.484)
Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Absolutely. So how do you see the entirety of that challenging season as preparation for your current ministries? Because like, what are some of the specific lessons that you now feel equipped to share with other ministers and leaders? I we've kind of touched on it, but is there anything more than what we've already discussed that you are now, you've got the

Ron & Denise Satrape (48:41.358)
But there was reconciliation.

Cecily Lachapelle (49:09.178)
the tools in your tool belt that you can say, all right, this is how you guys are going to repurpose this pain because it is gonna come, mean, bitterness and pain are gonna come to any of us. Jesus said, if the world hated me, it's gonna hate you and you're gonna...

Ron & Denise Satrape (49:24.578)
Sometimes pastors will say, I can't believe they did that. And I'll say, I can't believe you can't believe it. People have been doing that a long time. You have unrealistic expectations of people. People are people. And by the way, you are too. And if we don't practice forgiveness and practice repurposing our bitterness, the church will never learn it. It's really up to us to model it. I think some of the strengths Ron will bring to the table.

Cecily Lachapelle (49:30.478)
There you go.

Cecily Lachapelle (49:37.977)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (49:48.762)
Mm.

and

Ron & Denise Satrape (49:55.118)
is to try to help cultivate a healthy team where team members can talk openly, know, in healthy boundaries, but openly and honestly. Why? Because sometimes we all don't know where we are until it comes up to the surface. And then there, he's been able to identify areas in which, how do I help the team to begin to grow? You know, where are their reservations? Where are their fears? Where are their wrong perceptions? And for me, would it help me realize that, oh, my battery's getting low, so I'm gonna...

Cecily Lachapelle (50:00.559)
Mmm.

Yes.

Ron & Denise Satrape (50:25.806)
But what helped me to begin to realize is how do we create health within the person? Because each of us as ministers never stop being humans. But if we're too afraid to own the fact that we're still vulnerable, that we still have areas of wounds, pains that affect our perception, then we're not going to be the healthiest minister we can be.

Cecily Lachapelle (50:35.439)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (50:40.868)
Mmm.

Ron & Denise Satrape (50:55.68)
And so, you know, for me, it's caused me to be able to say what's underneath it that we can provide structure to heal it, where he can be able to give them the tools and the input to help them be able to be more effective. If they know themselves and allow the Holy Spirit to conquer those things within them, he can give them the tools to build things from, from out with Lee, you know, to build that inside outside, know, if you're, if you're easily wounded by other people.

Cecily Lachapelle (51:18.2)
Yes. Yes.

Ron & Denise Satrape (51:24.332)
you won't be able to have the kind of dialogue you need on your team because you'll be too busy protecting yourself and trying to handle.

Cecily Lachapelle (51:29.668)
Mm-hmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (51:36.354)
Yes, come on, that's right.

Cecily Lachapelle (52:14.05)
there.

Cecily Lachapelle (52:26.394)
Okay. Do you want to re-get in there and cut it back in? Yeah, that'd be great. We'll just wrap it up. If you can plug in, then we'll just do that. I will do that. Okay, awesome. All right, bye.

Cecily Lachapelle (56:14.774)
Hello, you have reached the...

Denise Satrape (58:55.586)
Okay, can you hear me? All right, I've got a microphone so it won't be too hot. Can't believe how the other one was so quiet and the other one, this one was so loud. Okay. you can ask that question again, maybe cut.

Cecily Lachapelle (58:56.48)
All right. Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (59:09.953)
Awesome!

Cecily Lachapelle (59:14.535)
yes, I'm actually trying to remember exactly which question we were on.

Denise Satrape (59:17.608)
question was, how did that equip us from ministering to others?

Cecily Lachapelle (59:21.824)
okay. Very good. Wow. Great memory. So, Pastor Ron and Pastor Denise, can you tell us how repurposing the bitterness of the situation went through equipped you for helping other ministers?

Denise Satrape (59:25.282)
Okay.

Denise Satrape (59:42.402)
Well, I think that if we're going to ever have a healthy community in the church, it starts with having a healthy pastor, a healthy leader, a healthy business person, depending on where you're at and how you're functioning. And I think that if we aren't able to model dealing with conflict and unforgiveness and bitterness, then we're going to appear to be unsafe to those around us.

Because we will be safe. We're not going to be able to have healthy dialogue because we're too concerned about being hurt and not concerned enough about people being heard. don't think we realize how much self-protection is a part of our dynamics, our DNA, and we spend so much time self-protecting. think one of the things that I admired the most about Ron is through those seasons, he began to jump into books, you know,

Cecily Lachapelle (01:00:11.919)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:00:24.334)
Yeah.

Denise Satrape (01:00:40.93)
about codependency, about people pleasing. And he began to read them first to say, where can I grow out of this? But the amazing thing is that also equipped him to not only deal with the things within himself, but how to help other people grow. And I think over the years, we both have seen how important it is as pastors. So many times you go to church and it's about

their spiritual life, yet they walk in three part being spirit, soul and body. And so yeah, their spirit man is on fire for God, but their soul man is still so wounded. It's always running competition for the driver's seat. And I think that I've realized the importance of if we can get people home from within to address the wounds of yesterday.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:01:13.743)
Come on.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:01:34.33)
Hmm.

Denise Satrape (01:01:34.37)
to learn so that they'll be better equipped to deal with the real life wounds of today, because they're going to happen. Then we posture them in such a way that we're able to help them step into their destiny, but step into it without the starry-eyed, but a realistic understanding that we're called the minister to people. And as divine as they might be on Sunday at the altar, they're still humans. And I think that we both realize that it's

building the structures from within as well as without, you know, creating house inwardly so they can be pastors who know how to develop house outwardly. You know, I would have a team meeting and people would start telling me how they feel or what they thought about a particular topic that we were discussing. I would be trying to know you don't what you don't really mean that don't you really mean this? And basically I'm subtly telling them.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:02:12.609)
Amen.

Denise Satrape (01:02:30.934)
to get my approval, you have to say this or you have to say that or you have to say it in this way. And so I'm maneuvering people's input rather than letting him be free and having that input come without me having to try to manage it or control the communication. And I think that I've been able to help other pastors along that line. Okay, where is that radiating from?

Cecily Lachapelle (01:02:38.202)
you

Denise Satrape (01:02:58.966)
Why are you trying to control everybody's input around the table? Because you've been hurt, you don't want to be hurt again. Okay, well, let's deal with the hurt. Let's deal with the forgiveness. Let's repurpose the pain. Let's repurpose the bitterness because you're not gonna, whatever plate you're feeding yourself from is the one you feed everybody else. Until that plate is clean, everyone else is getting dirty food.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:03:22.094)
That's so good. That is so good.

Denise Satrape (01:03:22.56)
That's so good. I used to just think that he'd like to be able to ask those kind of questions that evoked all kinds of responses. But I think one of the things that I've loved is we'll come to a team table and Ron will ask questions knowing that it will purposely pull things up from underneath. Because until things come to the surface, how do you know what's truly there within us, within someone within your team? And so but we couldn't even ever get there till we got healthy enough ourselves.

so that when it all came to the surface, you're not playing self-protect mode. Instead, you're allowing people to discover, to learn, to grow so that you can cultivate an environment where there's trust and there's risk taking. Because we never grow without taking the risk, isn't that true? And it takes a high level of trust for people to say what they really feel and not feel like there'll be retaliation or they'll lose some esteem.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:04:10.852)
Absolutely.

Denise Satrape (01:04:21.824)
you know, from either the leader or the people around the table. But until they say how they really feel, people don't feel loved until they feel heard. Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:04:31.674)
Yes. And would you say that that is also true in a marriage? Would you be able to take that exact same dynamic into a marriage? mean, you all have been married for 53 years. I'm sure you've had to overcome a little bit of bitterness every now and then towards one another.

Denise Satrape (01:04:48.098)
Well, way Denise grew up, was wrong to disagree. It was rebellion if you didn't support. And so I had to teach her how to disagree. And I'll tell you, she's real good at it now. That's when you have a healthy relationship. I think that we don't realize that when we don't learn how to healthily communicate, then just because everything is

Cecily Lachapelle (01:04:54.627)
and

Cecily Lachapelle (01:05:05.337)
Ha ha!

Yeah.

Denise Satrape (01:05:16.436)
underneath doesn't mean it's not there. You know, I love how Jesus said, and they said, if you kill someone, that's murder. And I said, if you thought in your heart, and I'm thinking about the fact that I'm outwardly so many of us are being the behaved people. But like Gordon Lightfoot said, if you could read my mind, what a tale that my thoughts could tell, right? And, so realizing that we have to learn how to speak the truth in love.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:05:34.586)
That's right.

Denise Satrape (01:05:44.546)
you know, first we have to speak the truth, but we need to do it in love. Because if you don't, you never even get to discover what's really on the inside. And it just brews. And I think that's the terrible thing about buddhiness. Because on the outside, you can put on a face, but it can be groovy and stewing, you know, and we can act like the brother that stayed at home instead of the prodigal, thinking we're all good because we're behaving. But God knows everything on the inside.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:05:59.534)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:06:07.194)
Mmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:06:11.661)
Right?

Denise Satrape (01:06:14.57)
And eventually all that comes to the surface. But I think we've had definitely had to learn. He had to learn, you know, as he got healed over his wounds, so he wouldn't hear me out of the filter of his past. But same for me. I had to learn what was my stuff from yesterday that became the filter that I heard him from. if not, and then you're fighting over something.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:06:15.193)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:06:37.593)
Yes.

Denise Satrape (01:06:42.114)
that had nothing to do with either one of us. We, you know what I mean? It it's not like a duck looked like a duck. must be that happening all over again. know, on a team, whether it's a husband and wife or whether it's a group of people on a team, if you can't say how you're feeling in that environment, it's going to leak out somewhere else. And that's where what causes divisions and things. And people will say, well, what did they say when you didn't agree with what they were talking about? Why you can't tell them anything.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:06:50.094)
Right.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:07:01.146)
Mmm.

Denise Satrape (01:07:10.452)
And so people are ordinarily, they're afraid of conflict because they haven't had good experiences with it. But once you've had good experience with it and people can say how they really feel, then it's very exhilarating when you're in a relationship in marriage or whether you're with a group of people around the table and everybody's saying how they feel and maybe agreeing, maybe disagreeing. But when it's all said and done, you have a collective understanding that you don't have in

Cecily Lachapelle (01:07:10.778)
Mmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:07:16.985)
Yes.

Denise Satrape (01:07:39.906)
cannot experience any other way. And when you have a collective understanding, that is the fabric of community. I had to get rid of a lie that I didn't realize I believed. I grew up with the lie on my head that says, confrontation means end of relationship. And the only experience I had was if you confronted, if you weren't in trouble, you might be dead. You know what mean?

Cecily Lachapelle (01:07:48.078)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:08:00.75)
Right.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:08:07.61)
Denise Satrape (01:08:09.16)
difficult and then I can remember one day the Holy Spirit saying to me, Denise, didn't I have to confront you with truth in order for you to come to me? And I went, well, yeah. And he said, so maybe the truth is that confrontation can be the beginning of a better relationship. And I just believe the lie that if you had a confrontation, it's over. You know what mean? And

Cecily Lachapelle (01:08:19.034)
Mmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:08:29.301)
Amen. Amen.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:08:36.568)
Yes.

Denise Satrape (01:08:38.42)
depending on the degree of the confrontation, know, sometimes husband's wife have confrontations, it's over and now there's just a wall. And the walls, they're long, long before the divorce of it shows up. But then, but I was so afraid to be able to speak up. And, you know, when you speak up, you begin to start figuring out, so why do I feel that way? You know, once you get past the speaking up to it, you know, not only did he learn about me, but I learned about me.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:08:46.553)
Right.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:08:50.872)
That's right. That's right.

Denise Satrape (01:09:08.864)
But the Lord just said to me, Denise, you've got to root out the lie. And the truth is confrontation can be the beginning of a better relationship. And so when I stopped being afraid of this thing called confrontation, I still had to learn the art of it, but stop being afraid of it. Then I would venture to go where my fear factor would never let me go before. You know, Cecily, the marriage that's in the most danger.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:09:08.932)
Yeah.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:09:17.882)
Mmm.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:09:23.087)
Hmm.

Denise Satrape (01:09:37.93)
is not the one that's fighting, not the one that's having an ideological conflict. It's the one that it over. so now that what's the use of fighting, they're never going to work out. And so they've given up on the relationship. That's when you're really in danger in a relationship, same way with a team that you're working with and how important it is to keep that dialogue going and work through and process through the things until everyone understands each other.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:09:40.079)
Mmm.

Come on.

Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:09:49.018)
Mm-hmm.

Denise Satrape (01:10:06.262)
And I think that sometimes we're so focused on getting a result that we're not really getting in unity together. And it's gonna take everybody on that team to get the results. So if you don't take the time to get everybody on board, because you're in such a hurry to get a certain end result, then you're gonna end up shooting yourself in the foot. And I think whether it's in marriage or whether it's on a ministry team or business team, that's the way it is.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:10:19.94)
Yeah. Yep.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:10:32.302)
Yes, yes. And just like all the things we talked about, there has to be that inquiry of the Holy Spirit saying, I feel like I could be justified in my anger and in my bitterness. But in obedience to your word, I want you to show me what is my filter? What is my part in this? And I want to surrender this bitterness to you, Lord. I can't pull these roots up of all the bitterness towards

Denise Satrape (01:10:44.93)
Yeah

Cecily Lachapelle (01:11:00.706)
my spouse or my children or my in-laws or my co-workers. I can't pull these roots up by myself. I can't pull myself up by these bootstraps. I need you, Holy Spirit, to do this on the inside of me. So show me what are those practical steps? Is it writing a letter? Is it getting everything out on a piece of paper and burning it in my backyard and just saying, there we go. I said it. I said my piece. I'm setting fire to this thing. I'm giving it to you, Or, you know, what are the

Denise Satrape (01:11:03.905)
Okay.

Denise Satrape (01:11:11.66)
Yes,

Denise Satrape (01:11:28.066)
Love.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:11:29.466)
practical steps that you want me to do to walk out forgiveness? Should I bless this person? If so, what is healthy way to do it? All of those things in a relationship, it is so important. And obviously, we're people, we live on a planet, so we're broken. We live amongst broken people. So bitterness is going to be the thing that the enemy is going to have plenty of opportunities to use against us. And so if we're not

Denise Satrape (01:11:33.42)
It's

Denise Satrape (01:11:48.086)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:11:58.508)
If the word tells us don't be ignorant of Satan's devices. So why should we not be ignorant? Because if we're knowledgeable about how he works, we can actually overcome it. We're not powerless against the schemes of the enemy.

Denise Satrape (01:12:02.241)
Mm-hmm.

Denise Satrape (01:12:08.588)
Yeah.

All right. Remember years back in the old building, I laminated those fish hooks. And I did a sermon. I hooked on a feeling, know what I mean? I'll be J. Thomas. But I can remember walking down the street, just, you know, kind of talking to God. And all of a sudden I saw a treble hook. And here I am dangling on it. And the person that you're trying to get away from, that you're holding on to, they're on the other hook behind you.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:12:17.709)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:12:21.37)
Mmm.

Denise Satrape (01:12:39.796)
And he said, Denise, I died on the hook to get you off. Why are you still dangling? And that when we're holding on to that bitterness, the very person we want to escape, we're forever tied to. There's a soul tie in the heavenly realms in it. And isn't it amazing though? It starts out with being hooked on a feeling. Something happens and we get hooked on our feeling. And then we let our emotions

Cecily Lachapelle (01:12:45.07)
Yes.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:12:52.334)
That's it.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:13:01.742)
Yes. Yes.

Denise Satrape (01:13:08.386)
Our feelings dictate that perception, that filter, and we get blindsided. And that's why I think, you know, in the body of Christ, it has to get healthy enough that we have people that we walk alongside or mentors that have walked ahead of us a little bit, that we can sit down and honestly say, I'm stuck. Or we could actually listen to when they say, I sense you're really stuck in this area. Can we talk about it? Because sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:13:38.134)
no, no, mm-mm. Yeah, I remember when I was going through a major season of bitterness, I met a friend of mine at Panera and I poured out the whole gruesome story with every detail. I mean, the more I talked, the madder I got and I was seething with anger and with bitterness and this had been going on for months and I was so stuck. And so I said to my friend, said, you know what I feel like?

Denise Satrape (01:13:58.05)
Mm-mm.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:14:07.908)
I feel like there was a neighborhood bully and I ran home to the safety of my house. My dad opens the door and closes the door and the bully comes banging on the door. My father opens the door and the bully pulls his arm back and pops me in the face. And instead of defending me or grabbing the bully's arm, my dad just reaches around me and shuts the door. And there I am bleeding with a broken nose. And my friend looked at me, she was like,

Yeah, that would be a hard feeling. But what if your nose needed to be broken? I'm like, what? What kind of crazy advice is that?

You're nuts!" But then I realized what she was trying to say. I mean, if somebody's going to get rhinoplasty, that's actually what the doctor does. They break the nose before they can reset it properly so a person can breathe properly or whatever. And I thought about that. thought, okay, if there are some things that are so out of alignment,

Denise Satrape (01:15:05.282)
you

Cecily Lachapelle (01:15:17.454)
that I can't even really fully take a breath of the Holy Spirit. And I'm not going to see it. Not that God sent this bitter situation, but He certainly is sovereign enough that He could use it to teach me a very valuable lesson about His goodness, that He truly is a good dad, and that if He allows any pain to come into my life, it had to pass by His desk first.

That means he's already provided the healing. He's already provided the benefit. And I am going to come out of this situation, if I cling to him, I'm going to come out of this better, stronger, wiser, more equipped to help other people, more in alignment with my purpose, with humility, in more love, and also more connected to his love for me. I can't lose as long as I stay connected to the Lord. So good.

Denise Satrape (01:16:14.498)
So true. So good. So good.

Cecily Lachapelle (01:16:16.09)
Amen. Well, Apostle Ron and Pastor Denise, I wish we could keep talking because obviously there's so much more that you all could share, that we could share. And I want to thank you so much for your time. And I want to thank you for adding so much value to the Higher Pursuit podcast tribe. And so, folks, I want to remind you that I'm going to be posting all the Christian Life Church and the Satrape social media handles.

in the show description so you can follow them because they are having so many really exciting adventures. You're gonna wanna follow them on social media because they're going to Canada, Costa Rica, all kinds of places, ministering the gospel, sharing with pastors, hosting conferences. So you wanna make sure to follow them. And also friends, make sure to share this interview on social media so other people can benefit. And if you haven't already,

Subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening to it, whether that is Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on YouTube. And you can join my email list on higherpursuitministries.com. And that way you can receive my newsletter and my blog. And finally, friends, we are on this pursuit of more of Jesus together. None of us have arrived, but my goal for this podcast is to always offer you something that's nourishing,

that's gonna strengthen you, encourage you, and challenge you as you pursue more of Jesus in your messy everyday life. So until next time, may you walk in all the favor of God, and I'll see you in the next podcast.