Tiniest of Seeds

Surrender: A Talk with Tara Lee About Surrendering What Seems Impossible

• Laurine Decker & Tara Lee • Season 2 • Episode 4

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If you feel like there’s something you can’t surrender and you know you need to, this episode is for you. Tara’s medical journey felt too big and impossible to surrender, but recently she’s experiencing new release and peace. Sometimes surrender takes time.

Does something come to your mind that feels or felt impossible for you to let go of? Or something you’ve failed at over and over even though you’ve “surrendered”? For all of us there are big things that might come to mind, but God asks us to surrender all! It doesn’t seem fun, but when we remember He made us and knows us better than we know ourselves and really wants us to have fullness of peace and joy it makes it seem a bit better. Still though, even as we learn that it really truly is better, we still don’t choose it all the time or  feel like we even can. We need his Spirit to do it. 

Human nature is to fight for our right to control, and often we think that is the way to success. But, surrender to God is something entirely different and is the way to the '"more" we are promised in Jesus.  Tara and I talk about surrender in both big and little things. 

Surrender really isn't about defeat; it's a balance between personal freedom and the embrace of trust in God through uncertainty. 



Laurine:

Welcome listeners. Today I'm here with my friend, Tara Lee, and we are going to be talking about surrender and right before we pushed the play button, I was telling Tara I got nothing Today. I feel like I got nothing. . And we had talked a little bit before this about the idea of surrender. Tara had sent me a verse today, this morning, because we've been percolating this week, we've known this conversation is coming up, and she sent me a verse I want to read to you guys, and it is about Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, from Mark, and it says and going a little farther, he, jesus, fell on the ground and prayed that if it was possible, the hour might pass from him and he said Abba, father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me yet, not what I will, but you will. And that verse is just packed and Tara and I are going to talk a little bit about surrender in light of that verse.

Laurine:

Last week, janet Massey and I chatted about wellness and the week before, bill Bedell and I chatted about temptation, and Tara and I, in this season for both of us I would say it's been a season where we have been redefining what exactly it means to walk with Jesus in surrender, to be yoked, to say not my will, but your will, abba, father. And Jesus even says all things are possible for you. That just is blowing my mind. That just is blowing my mind. It's a little bit difficult to know which direction to go for me, because both Tara and I've had so many places of raw surrender in the past couple years, and so, rather than try to pick the right one, I'm going to let Tara speak simply from her heart as to what surrender means to her, and we chatted beforehand, like I said, and I told her there's not really a structure.

Laurine:

I know I say that to listeners all the time.

Laurine:

We come in here really cold, which is awkward, but part of the reason is because I want to get all of my own thoughts and religion out of the way, and I know there's a lot of nuances to surrender Tara's experience that I haven't even come close to experiencing, because we're also very, very, very different, and so I'm looking forward to a little bit of back and forth with you, tara, about what surrender has meant to you in these past couple of years, and I can also share.

Laurine:

Surrender has been very costly for me these past couple years in ways that other people could not begin to understand it, and they don't need to. I also want to put a little asterisk and say I was chatting with a friend last week who was sharing how much she hates the word surrender, like to her it makes her feel like she's thrown in the towel and giving up, and so she won't use that word, even though she's a disciple of Jesus. And so even that like sheds light on the fact that we are all so very, very different in what in fact we do need to surrender and how personal it is.

Tara:

Oh, for sure.

Tara:

I've had that same struggle with the concept of surrender being giving up versus giving over Okay, and I guess I can just really understand where your friend is coming from because, I think there's just so many things we really want to control in our life, in our health, and there's all these things we can do and all there's always another thing we can try, and I definitely have experienced that and I know that journey. I'm still on that journey, but I've also reached a point where I have been told, um, this will not be resolved for you, so, um, I don't even know where to even really start because, um, like, I think of when we we really first started our friendship Right and our life circumstances at that time.

Tara:

And then 2021 hit.

Laurine:

Right.

Tara:

And that was a terrible year and all that happened there and then all that's happened since where I am now.

Laurine:

Right. Well, what comes to mind now that you mentioned where we've been started? We started in a place of surrender because I would say both Tara and I showed up at a. I believed I needed to surrender my right to not go to that woman's retreat, and that's where Tara and I met. And that was an entirely different season for you. You were still an administrator at Todd Beamer at that time. Finishing that out, I was on.

Tara:

I was actually at LH by that point.

Laurine:

Oh, at LH Okay.

Tara:

I was. I was at Ilihi by that point. Oh, at Ilihi. Okay, I think it was by the end of that next week I had decided I'm quitting and I was having just a lot of transition around work and my work, identity and my identity, identity.

Laurine:

Right.

Tara:

Depression and burnout and just a mess. Like I was a big mess and I went to this women's retreat and I'm like I hate retreats, Like I still think I would say that I don't enjoy them, they're hard for me. I was telling someone yesterday retreats like you don't have an escape, Like you can, can obviously.

Tara:

And I I feel like I'd be more equipped now to just be like I got to peace out for a while, right, but um, there's also this aspect of all these things you have to do and you have to be around so many people all the time and I am an introvert and I don't enjoy all that all the time.

Tara:

So, anyway, and it's very vulnerable. And then you're talking about things all vulnerable and I remember, at that women's retreat, like we had broken into small groups and I was with this one group and I don't even remember what someone said to me but I just started sobbing and I don't even know these people and I just like crying oh, it was a mess, it was terrible. So, anyway, I'd say, truly, the one thing that I think of that retreat, the really good thing that came out of it, was our friendship, because we had sat at one of the meals next to each other and we just realized this commonality we had around some work stuff and where we were transitioning out of jobs and into this unknown, yes, yeah, and that was a whole period of really like questioning God in general. Right, that's what I struggled with, like why are you making me go through this?

Tara:

I thought I was doing all the right things. You know, yes, why did this? Why did I have such a struggle, to where I felt like I failed so greatly Right With this career? Why did I feel like everything was ending? And you know, when you've built your life around things you do Right and doing things the right way in a certain way, and that's your identity, it's really hard when that shifts underneath you so absolutely that was a surrender, yep, and of itself.

Laurine:

We had to kind of really struggle through it's so interesting because, like you said, where do we even start? Because I said at the beginning, we have tar and I've both gone through quite a bit of surrender in these past few years and it is vastly different, like some of the things you have faced. You had no idea you would be facing them and neither did I. When we met I had not gone into business with my twin sister. Now that business has come to a close, you were. We were both still working for the Federal Way School District.

Laurine:

You alluded a few minutes ago to some unresolved things because Taurus had some medical stuff and we had no clue about that. That came on fast and furious and was a shock and I had no clue the amount of surrender I still needed regarding my physical well-being and the things that I was holding on to out of control, certain masking things. I really am enjoying remembering back to that retreat because we did both choose to go out of at that time. I don't even really I don't even think I would have looked at it as surrender, but we chose to go and I definitely wouldn't have looked at it as growing my emotional resilience. But even back then you and I were both taking risks to put us in a position for more healing, and then we've taken a lot of risks together. It's kind of funny to even look back on what I thought like when we first met. So funny like I thought I was going to be Tara's adventure buddy, and she's way more adventurous than I am.

Laurine:

Anyway, now she actually has a podcast on adventuring, which is pretty fun. But it's so funny how our ideas come to more light as we surrender in the one little step of surrender, that we sometimes don't even know that we're doing.

Tara:

Right, and I think you and I have talked over the years too, about this concept of just keep showing up. Yeah, um, just keep trying and keep showing up for things, even though they're hard, or, yep, just not your jam, so much you know.

Tara:

Um, I feel like we both have done that yes, the last few years too, and kept showing up, and I think the process of doing that can help you. When you look back, that remembrance of where I was and where I am now and what the showing up does do for you is, just helps you your perspective and seeing things maybe from a different angle than you would have without it.

Laurine:

So I have a question for you. What then and this is a tricky question because there's really no right answer, which is kind of the point what's the difference between showing up out of performance or perfectionism or caretaking or obligation, and showing up out of integrity or surrender, or being yoked with Jesus, like Jesus in the garden? How, how can we know? Like, like?

Tara:

mm-hmm.

Laurine:

Yeah.

Tara:

Yeah, I think, uh, I think the thing is control, control. Ok, when you're showing up to show up for the performance, it's about trying to control people's perceptions of you. That's been my experience and I still do that. Sometimes, honestly, I've caught myself. Often, actually, I do that and then it carries with it for me a great deal of resentment. Usually, right, I get really cranky about, yes, how other people maybe are then not showing up for me right whereas, if you can, if I can, show up out of surrender it.

Tara:

It is simply that is what it is. And there is no expectation, there's no obligation.

Laurine:

It's a choice.

Tara:

And it's free. There's freedom in it to have the outcome be whatever it is.

Laurine:

That's really good.

Tara:

It's not up to me.

Laurine:

That's really good. I love that, and it's making me think back to something that I want to continue to practice, which is to ask myself what's my motive? Because even in things that we know that we are called quote to be in, like, not to like for or even required to be at, like a job, for some of us who are overachievers or who put a lot of pressure on ourselves, we can it can very quickly become about just what you're saying. Is it because I don't want to disappoint people?

Tara:

Is it because I?

Laurine:

don't want to call it sick. Is it because somehow I think this is my responsibility? What's my motive? And I'm having to wrestle with that in some new ways as I'm learning new ways of surrendering my family of origin with. I want to be a peacekeeper. I want everybody to be fine. I very easily can take too much responsibility on my own shoulders for other people's well-being or I'm overcommitted often, and the way that I can walk in freedom without resentment and with being present and joyful to my friendships or to my family or to my body of believers, is by checking my motive. And I need to continue to do that because it's so easy just to let that motive become obligation rather than surrender. Yeah, yeah, and that's.

Laurine:

And I really am taking that to heart right now, tara, because, like, for example, this today, I had a, I had a killer headache and I didn't feel obligated to keep this appointment with you. I chose to, out of surrender, if you will, and I do feel great now. So I'm very thankful, but being willing to I know right but being willing to stop and say and that's what I did today. So good job, lorraine. I stopped and say Lord, I'm willing to cancel this up until probably a half an hour before you came, I had not surrendered it. And then, about a half an hour, right when you texted me about Shelby, I said God, if I need to cancel this, I'm willing to cancel it, but if not, then give me the strength to show up. Cancel it, but if not, then give me the strength to show up. But often I don't even stop to say show me. Because it feels and I said I'm scared. I'm scared you won't tell me what to do.

Laurine:

It feels scary to surrender because often it feels unknown, like, okay, this doesn't make any sense. Well, it doesn't have to. Trust and obedience doesn't have to make sense. It's one present moment at a time, trying to honor our convictions before God, to love him and others. That's what showing up is, you know, and I am so grateful to her. I'm going to say it again my headache is gone, I feel great, so thanks.

Tara:

Yeah, thanks, that's good. Grateful Tara, I'm gonna say it again, my headache is gone, I feel great. So, yeah, and I think, I think that there's a lot of little daily ways to surrender, mm-hmm. And then there are going to be moments and we all face them, yeah, that are big and heavy and hard, yes, and surrender is different than I'd say, and that's where the verse that I sent you comes from more of that place. It helps me to know. Jesus went through those feelings of I hate that this is happening. I don't want this to be happening, saying God, I know you could lift this from me, but I will trust your will in it, and that you can pray and not be healed, and you have to be able to, at some point, surrender some of that over, because it's really heavy. Yes, it's hard to carry that. So, yeah, we talked a little bit about my health stuff. I was diagnosed in end of 2021.

Tara:

I had just a major, just major blow up in my body that doctors didn't know what was going on and I had. I had a major surgery that I've learned now the name of the surgery. Okay, it's called a CRS, a cytoreductive surgery. Okay, some people call it MOAS, the mother of all surgeries. It's called a CRS, a cytoreductive surgery, some people call it MOAS, the mother of all surgeries, really, mm-hmm, wow, where just I won't go into all of the details of all that was removed and such, but basically, but basically saved my life and then got me a diagnosis of it's in the appendix cancer family, ok, but my specialist has told me many, many times that it's not cancer but, to be real, it's. He says it isn't, but it it. It's a disease growing in my body. Um, it just doesn't go through my bloodstream. It's not gonna go into different parts of my body, it's okay. Just, it's like, uh, I, I joke around that it's like the dave matthews band, um, song space between. Okay, it lives in the space between yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just that stuff hanging out there anyway, yeah, and that just, you know, when you are faced with your mortality, so suddenly, um, and you still have children at home, right, that need a mom, that a spouse that needs you, and you're not ready to be saying goodbye, you know, that is a whole different level of surrender that I haven't been willing to do until the last, my last doctor appointment, okay, finally, my last scan.

Tara:

Uh, my doctor said there's been progression. Um, that wasn't the news I wanted, of course. Um, he said we're going to have to go in and do another surgery at some point. Um, he said I just, I just really think I need to be clear with you that there, um, it is unreasonable to think that I can ever, um, get rid of all of this in you. Okay, um and I, there's something about that that I could then finally just be like this is what it is, and I had, I don't know, it was like a switch got flipped finally. Yeah, because I mean, it's been over that 2021 until now.

Tara:

So, it's been a few years that I've been having scans and getting. I had another surgery in between and anyway, there were a lot of prayers of you know God, will you just heal me? Yeah, you know god will you just heal me. Yeah, you know. And I know, on your um, on your podcast with janet you were talking about janet, right, okay, uh, you were talking about um. You know he can heal all our diseases and and I I know he can, yeah, but it doesn't look like he will for me. Who knows? But I have accepted that I will likely succumb to this at some point. It could be years and years from now, but the reality is we will all reach that point. None of us are going to make it out of here alive, right? It's just facing that reality. When you're in your mid-40s feels there's a different. Maybe I don't know, of course.

Laurine:

I'm, I would think I would agree. It seems like there's a difference in that you've come face to face within a different way.

Tara:

Yeah.

Laurine:

Yeah.

Tara:

Yeah, I'm I'm quote unquote too young for this. I've been told. So I mean, yes, of course I agree with that, yeah, yeah, but anyway surrender is is necessary, because the reality is very heavy.

Laurine:

That's why I love the passage that you sent me this morning, because one of the things about faith is it is a substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. Yet we know that we look at what the Bible says about God heals all our diseases and redeems our lives from the pit, in Psalm 103. That's the reality, because God's reality is an eternal reality. And then people you know, we get so caught up on what does that mean? When the reality of the peace and the faith is for this moment and I remember a couple of weeks ago you were telling me how you'd had that release and then just this peace, that this new sense of peace.

Laurine:

And sometimes, like that's why I get I get really feisty in this physical realm when people want to label the way God does or doesn't heal intangible ways, because God is beyond our comprehension. Like when he says he heals all our diseases, he means it, but in our human finite understanding it doesn't look like we want it to sometimes, and that's why I love what you were saying with Jesus in the garden. I think it's fascinating how Jesus says God with you, all things are possible. You could take this from me. What other plan could God have done? Now we know Jesus was plan A. I've said that so many times Like no, this was God's will. God's perfect will is always accomplished because God it says in the Bible all over the place his plans and purposes succeed.

Tara:

So we can't like wrap our brains about it.

Laurine:

And somehow we can receive that peace, despite as we surrender, and even the act of surrender can take surrendering, saying I don't like, help me surrender. Going back to the, I believe help my unbelief Like it's him.

Tara:

Right.

Laurine:

What do we do?

Tara:

We have to show up, yeah, yeah, and that kind of goes back to that concept of surrender being equated with giving up and it's not. I'm not giving up. No, uh-uh, I've got in my mind I have a lot of years left to be a mom and to be there for my family. Yes to be there for my family. Yes, you know, I'm not. I'm not like.

Tara:

I truly don't feel like that surrender was um in any way, like admitting defeat, I guess right, it's more of an uh, that concept that um you might hear about with um therapy like the radical acceptance yeah, that's what it is. It's just being okay with your situation being what it is and it doesn't mean that I'm not going to try to feel better. I mean I have chronic pain now like all day, every day I can function, but it's not like I don't want to feel better, that I'm not trying to take care of myself. You know I'm not facing crippling depression at the moment.

Laurine:

Yeah.

Tara:

You know, I'm working on maintaining my mental and physical health because I also think I'm in training. I'm in training for the next surgery and I also just want to be able to function well, to be there for my family, right? Um, my priority, my priorities have gotten really simple. Yeah, um, it's really just about what. What does my husband, my kids need? That's the priority.

Tara:

Um, everything else is is nice, but I need to be able to be good enough for, yeah, being there for them, still being their mom. It just redefines things. You redefine right what's important and but it's it's not giving up, it's it's freedom around that pressing in of worry and anxiety. It's some freedom from that pressing in of worry and anxiety. It's some freedom from that, and it wasn't like I made a choice where I'm like okay, I'm just going to choose to do this. Like it's not that easy. Maybe surrender comes when it needs to is what I'm wondering, and that you can't necessarily force that.

Laurine:

You can pray for it and hope for it and seek it, and maybe it's in those daily, small ways you practice it like maybe that's giving you training up for when yeah, when they're really heavy, hard things happen that you're like I don't like that this is happening to me or someone I love, but I'm going to surrender it because because I know how to do that yeah, that it makes me think back to what Janet and I talked about last week too, about how we don't have to feel the truth for it to be true, and just what you were saying just now about adding those practices that then put us in the position where we can surrender.

Laurine:

And I think I might've already mentioned where Jesus said forgive 70 times seven, and I love that because that shows that it's going to be something that we have to do again and again and again, to practice sometimes. It's not that we're doormats, it's not that, like what you just said, it's not that we're giving up, it's that we get to choose to say no, god's word, his faithfulness are the case, and I'm going to surrender to that. And it isn't I say all the time too. It's a one and done, in that Jesus did it on the cross, but it's not a one and done in that we have to be sanctified, and the Bible very clearly talks about sanctification. Like we wouldn't have the stories of agony and humanity if it was that simple, you know if it was easy to just say, oh, I surrender, I pick up my cross and follow you Jesus.

Laurine:

No, it's a choice to die to ourselves, to put ourselves back in that place that Jesus was, in the garden, where we say it's not my will but yours, even though I don't feel like it. And yeah, even the process of learning to surrender is a process, because we are so human, we are so distractible, even learning where the temptation enters in and what, how to stop that, to surrender, so we can receive the strength of the spirit to avoid the temptation. I don't know how many times I've said you say that I can't, won't, be tempted above that which I'm able, but I sure as heck don't feel that that's true, cause I I often yield to temptation and as I'm learning to surrender more quickly, like I mentioned earlier about even like doing the podcast today with a headache as.

Laurine:

I'm learning to surrender somehow. Yeah, he helps me on this journey and on this road of sanctification, so I'm using coping mechanisms less. I'm growing in my emotional resilience. I'm way more present to my family, able to love my present, and I love what you said about how you know we're called to be loving God and loving those around us. That's our, that's what jesus calls us to as disciples. That's our primary function. So how can we show up in surrender so we can receive what we need for the life and godliness this moment?

Tara:

it's very practical you know yeah and um my perspective has shifted um. Just when you kind of really can, when you can really keep an eye on what you think is important, it makes everything else just not that big a deal. Right, and then when I find myself feeling like certain things are a big deal, I have a different measurement.

Tara:

I guess I guess around that now where I can take a step back and be like why am I so upset about this? Or this is bothering me and I recognize old patterns, um or um, or where my stress around maybe doctor appointment overlaps with you know something that's said or done in a different part of my life and I'm like able to, I guess. I guess what I'm hearing you say is like the ability to kind of rise out of that moment and look at it more with curiosity and be like what's really going on here? Yes, like I am truly cranky today and I don't why am I so cranky?

Tara:

right, being able to like take a step back and be like okay, I can also be gentle with myself because you know, we all have a lot going on and yes, you know, X, y or Z appointment just happened, and that was hard, or you know. So it's good to be able to, I guess, just be mindful around the bigger picture, yeah.

Laurine:

And then we can receive what we really truly need, instead of putting whatever cranky behavior, whatever control, whatever fear, whatever coping mechanism, whatever avenue of escape we're looking for, because it's not what we really need, right Right, and that can only come as we surrender.

Tara:

So, yeah.

Laurine:

So any last thoughts as we wrap up? Every single guest I have Tara. I'm like I want to talk longer and longer because I know Tara and Tara knows me, and we have had some really deep places of surrender that I would love to talk more about, but you know it's time for her to go. So so we do need to wrap up, just practically speaking, but is there any last thought that you have before we sign off?

Tara:

Yeah, I don't know. Um, I think I'm coming back around, maybe to the easter concept and um, that jesus was very human in that moment, yeah, and of course he knew god's bigger purpose, right? But um, I, I think he, I think he just was facing this horrible thing and he just had some fear. Yes, I had to have had some fear around it, no kidding, and that model of you know just where do we go when we're feeling that way, and yeah and who.

Laurine:

Who loves us beyond that moment and beyond even this life, is is God, and there's comfort in that yeah, yeah, and that comes down for me too and growing in faith and trust because I still have room to grow in that Sometimes I don't believe that he actually is good and faithful and I have to put my eyes and that's where those practices come back in to say, no, I'm going to stand in his word and continue to apply those things because I do believe it.

Laurine:

But it doesn't always feel that way and it certainly doesn't always feel safe or good. When we are going through bad, traumatic things like your medical stuff or some of the other different stuff that we know a lot of our friends or ourselves are going through, it seems very counterintuitive to say I want to be crucified with Christ because it's better, right, it's better. So, as we wrap up, listeners, if there's an area that seems too big to surrender, I wonder if you're willing to even surrender that to the Lord. I know there's a few things in my life right now that seem impossible and I do find, as I put on those garments of praise, and I do find, as I put on those garments of praise and I focus on God's goodness and faithfulness, or have conversations with other believers, like with Tara today, you know, that encourages me and helps me know that I can continue to stand in faith and that it really is worth surrender. I believe it so thanks, Lori.

Tara:

Thanks for letting me share today.

Laurine:

Thank you so much for being here, Tara. Thank you.