Tiniest of Seeds

How Forgiveness Transforms Our Lives: A Chat With Katy Krippaehne

• Laurine Decker • Season 2 • Episode 9

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Forgiveness is truly the most powerful avenue for a life of fullness and goodness - our best, most free and joyful and holy lives for God's glory and our good! Forgiveness is vital and brings a depth of freedom and release and connection that are indescribable.  Join Laurine and her friend Katy Krippaehne as they talk about some of the complex layers of forgiveness and the transformative, difficult and ongoing process it can be.

We share heartfelt stories and reflect on scriptures like the Lord's Prayer and Colossians 3, and explore the all too often tug-of-war between the Christian command to forgive and the emotional readiness to do so. 

We talk about the importance of compassion not only for others but for ourselves, and the recognition that taking time to receive love and deep forgiveness and a sense of worth isn't selfish but necessary for genuine spiritual growth. 

Laurine:

Welcome to the Tiniest of Seeds podcast. My name is Laurine and today I'm interviewing my friend, katie Krippaehne, and we are going to be talking about forgiveness. And that's a really broad topic, especially in light of the Christian faith that we both have, because it's basically the whole foundation of our faith is that God loved the world and gave his son Jesus. Because we needed forgiveness, because we all have fallen short of the glory of God. And I wanted to frame our conversation, katy, first of all, with the Lord's prayer, where Jesus says right off the bat he says, pray like this Holy Father, hallowed be thy name, Our Father, who art in heaven, kind of paraphrasing a little. But you know, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come. And then he says give us what we need every day, give us this day our daily bread. And then he says forgive us our debts, forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us. And then he tells Peter, remember when he says forgive people 70 times seven.

Laurine:

And then I was thinking a little bit more too about in Colossians three, where it tells us to put on then I'm just going to quote it as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other. As the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive and, above all, put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And so I wonder if you would be willing to just open up the conversation, maybe, with what it has looked like for you to either. I know, for me it has kind of gone back and forth, but what does it look like for you to not only receive that forgiveness and to give it?

Katy:

Yeah Well, first off, thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, I relate to the back and forth. I think it's been, um, actually it was reflecting just yesterday, uh, with someone about my just walk with God. Next year it will be 40 years that I have been a Christian. July 31st 1985.

Katy:

I wrote it in the back of my Bible at camp when I became a Christian. So I've had a long time to toy with the concept of forgiveness. I think in the early years of my faith it was more just almost like a command that I was like, okay, forgive because I've been forgiven. But I don't think I really took that in and, as you know, anybody listening knows if you've lived more life, you've seen more things. Life kind of beats you up along the way and I think you experience more things. And the concept of forgiveness I've had to look at more than just, well, god tells me to forgive, so I'm going to forgive because I've been forgiven. But the more I think I've been able to sit with what that actually feels like and what that is, it's, you know, sometimes been hard and I feel like I went through some different seasons where the idea of the kind of the commandment to forgive others because we've been forgiven I don't know if it's out of my relationship with just God and feeling a lot of freedom in my, in my walk, but I've been like you know what? I need a minute here and I'm not going to just instantly forgive somebody because I'm told to cause it wouldn't be authentic and true, and I felt like, thankfully, I had a lot of freedom in my process, especially with some things within my family that were really hard.

Katy:

From growing up, I knew, um, I knew that forgiveness was what I was called to. Um, I knew that that was, yeah, that was important, but I also wasn't ready, and I think I needed to. I was still processing different things, but it was cool, cause I felt like the Lord really helped reveal to me, when I withhold forgiveness towards someone, the person that's really losing out is me, right, and I'm the one kind of left holding the heavy stone or heavy bag or whatever you want to call it. Um, when I don't release the grudge or the, the thing I'm holding against somebody, and so, but that was a long process. I mean, we're talking years and years and years of kind of sitting with some different things within my story. So I feel like forgiveness now comes a little easier because I feel like I've learned the lesson around. You know, when I hold hold onto something, I'm the one who's really stuck.

Laurine:

Right.

Katy:

And it's like, of course it's God's commandment. There's a lot of things the Bible tells us to do and I think if we do all the things that God's telling us to do, that's his best and it's going to be awesome if we are following after everything he says. But I also am human and God knows that, and so sometimes it takes a minute.

Laurine:

So what do you think about the feeling of forgiveness as opposed to that act of saying God, you command me to forgive, so I will, to forgive by the power of your spirit and I can think of one situation where I really feel like for me to have forgiveness.

Laurine:

it took about 10 years before I could wish that person well, and right now there's actually a few situations in my life where I still know I probably have a little more freedom from the Lord, even though I have willed to forgive them. Sometimes I wonder about that layered, lengthy process. What do you think about that?

Katy:

Yeah, when you say that I hadn't thought about it, but I think I don't personally. I haven't personally experienced forgiveness. Um, sometimes it's a one-time act. It's a one-time oh, my gosh, you know, lord helped me to forgive this person for this situation. Um, I don't want to hold onto this anymore, and it's that simple. But with um, you know some people in my family. For example, I have a really tough relationship with my brother.

Katy:

It's a continual re-asking. Sometimes Something new might come up in memories of things that I'm like wait, that's not okay, that was really hard. And then I am back feeling angry or deeply sad or wounded or traumatized or whatever, and I need to go back to my knees, so to speak, and saying Lord, help me with this, and asking God to forgive him, because it does. Sometimes it's years. And then I think I've forgiven something. And then something pops up and I'm like hmm, apparently I need to talk to God about this a little more.

Katy:

And the nice thing, at least for me, we have different stories in the way we were raised in the church.

Katy:

I have kind of this almost, and I'm realizing it the more I have different friends and we all have different backgrounds connected to our faith and upbringing of like I don't even know what the word is, but I don't have like any sort of like legalistic, like ties that feel really ugly or manipulative around faith.

Katy:

I feel like super pure in my relationship with God and I feel a lot as a result. I feel a lot of freedom. So if it takes me years to let go and forgive something, I feel like God's like okay. Okay, like the sense of God's voice in my head is always so kind and so full of grace and it always has been. I'm very grateful for that, and so when I'm struggling, maybe, with forgiveness, I do feel a freedom to be like okay, you get more time. And I think sometimes I feel a little rubbed the wrong way If I read something about somebody kind of telling somebody well, gosh, you know you need to forgive that person because you've been forgiven, and I'm like wait a second, like I don't want to just say the words because it's what I'm supposed to say.

Katy:

I want to say the words because I mean them.

Laurine:

Sometimes I think too, because it's what I'm supposed to say. I want to say the words because I mean them. Sometimes I think too it can be partly semantics, because I know we're wired for as humans we're wired to compare and to gauge off of one another's perspective or paradigm, and I think, especially sometimes in matters of theology, we can get a little bit black and white. So I think it can be easy to come at it from slightly different directions and actually it's sort of the same thing in some ways. I think it can be easy to come at it from slightly different directions. Sure, and actually it's sort of the same thing in some ways, like we want to authentically forgive.

Laurine:

If we are forgiving with lip service, that's not going to do us any good. We are still going to be held captive, right. So I think it's an act of the will. And then the feelings follow as we continue to show up and say no, lord, you say to forgive them, so you're going to help me do it. Then I also can't help but think about Jesus on the cross when he said forgive them. They don't know what they're doing.

Laurine:

And then I think how sometimes I think in our culture we think that if we forgive them we're condoning somehow or excusing, Whereas it has nothing to do with the act that was perpetrated and all about extending grace and forgiveness to the person. It doesn't let them off the hook, it doesn't mean that that doesn't still have impact. And I think sometimes I get confused, because if something still has impact, then I can think well, I must not have forgiven them when actually that might be a distraction. But then also I go back to think about the 70 times 7.

Laurine:

I know it's in there because it takes sometimes a lot of showing up again and again, and again and again to say no, I forgive them.

Katy:

Yeah, Because you did. Yeah, it's interesting. You said I forget the way you said it but kind of like the act of obedience of saying like, forgive them and like, but kind of like, you know, the act of obedience of saying like, forgive them and like, maybe your feelings aren't all there, but you're trying to do it and in you saying that, I'm like, huh, I definitely am a feelings person before I say it, and I also think another thing that you said that just triggered a thought is I do feel like sometimes my ability to be ready to let go of something and to genuinely, with like a totally contrite heart, forgive something and let it go, is a reflection on how much time have I been spending in the word Right, how much time have I been spending with God? Am I talking with him? Am I really connected to myself, my pain, my wounds, the things I really feel?

Katy:

Because I it's almost like if you think about like sounds kind of weird, but like scraping out the bottom of a peanut butter jar, so you go down there, you get some out, Okay, and you think it's all emptied and you've like cleaned it out, but there's a whole bunch and you got to go get that special spatula that's curved to get in there and get it all out, and so I think that I can.

Katy:

Maybe there's something about that where you can say something like you're forgiven. But I think I spend a little more time like examining my heart around things. That's just the way I've. I kind of have rolled around that concept before I will say it, and even sometimes I don't want to think about something because it really hurt my feelings or it really was painful. And knowing that we were having this conversation yesterday, I was in my car I pray a lot in my car. That's my like totally alone time and I was talking to God about or just praying for this time, and then God just popped this thought in my head about somebody that I needed to forgive and my first thought was I don't want to think about that and then, and I felt like I was like, but I want you to think about that.

Katy:

And I was like, oh boy, I'm going to go have this conversation with Lorene tomorrow about forgiveness and maybe I need to think about who I might want to be letting some things go with. And so I again. So I'm processing my feelings, if I'm if we're going back to the analogy I just used I'm looking at the bottom of that jar going, okay, have I cleaned it all out? And I was like, and then even more so, I thought, no, I want to, because I don't want to hold this anymore. I would like to release this. And when I see this person ever again or something might come up that I don't not holding onto that thing.

Katy:

And um, it was a really sweet, honestly. It was a really sweet time I was able to go yeah, I'm ready to forgive them. And on top of that, something that I always try to be well, not always I'm more more recently, trying to be mindful of just remembering people and that they all have stories. So, whatever wrong somebody may have done to me, if I'm able to think about them in terms of they're a human being just like I am, imperfect, just like I am flawed, just like I am wounded, just like I am, we both have our own stories and things.

Katy:

It definitely softens the kind of irritation and like intensity I might feel towards something, and that is really helpful to just be just trying to see people as like just broken souls that are doing the best they can based on what they've experienced, and that seems to also be really helpful for me.

Laurine:

This morning I had an opportunity. Lane is living with us again and boom back from Arizona. She was down there for eight years. You listeners may or may not know that, I know. You know that, katie.

Laurine:

But so I'm having opportunity with my adult daughter to re engage in some different and new patterns and I got so irritated this morning and impatient in my spirit toward her and as I am getting more in tune with myself, I'm recognizing that that usually indicates there might be something that I need to forgive, and for me it comes back to me not being authentic and to actually violating my own sense of boundaries.

Laurine:

It's just been so fascinating how often projection or an external manifestation, if you will, of some ungodly characteristics or even if I don't, even if it doesn't come out, if it's in my heart often I notice that there's something that I have not been authentic and forgiving someone or communicating about so that I can release it.

Laurine:

And anyway, so with Lane this morning, it's so humbling to be turning it back around and look at the plank in my own eye, because really, whenever we need to forgive someone, if we haven't done it, it's because there is a wound or a trauma. There is a rightful thing. Often not always but there's something within us that is broken, that needs to be righted or that needs justice or healing, and so, like what you were saying earlier, it does release us. We want to withhold that or not look at it or avoid it because it's painful, but actually, when we receive the forgiveness God has toward us, then we are able to forgive what they may or may not be going through, and then it results in us all feeling a heck of a lot better about one another yeah, actually, feeling loving toward one another.

Katy:

Yeah, well, and you saying that makes me think.

Katy:

at the very beginning you had kind of said which everyone like forgiveness toward others, forgiveness toward ourselves Right like forgiveness toward others, forgiveness toward ourselves, and I feel like what you just said made me kind of turn toward that direction, which I think that is a whole other kind of ball of wax to look at, Um, and one that I don't like looking at. You know, can I forgive myself for? Maybe it's not even, uh, something I've done, but something I'm not, you know, maybe it's not even something I've done, but something I'm not.

Laurine:

Yeah right.

Katy:

You know, maybe it's just something that I, you know, wish I was fill in the blank and going like, can you let yourself off the hook for that? I don't know if that's the same as like, you know, forgiveness in the terms of like when someone's wronged you, but I think we wrong ourselves all the time with unkindness and talking to ourselves. I mean, I know, for me, I have a really strong we've talked about this you and I before but, um, I have a very strong voice of self-loathing and self-hatred that is meaner than anything I would ever say to another person.

Laurine:

Yeah.

Katy:

And I have a lot of shame around that and thinking like why would I talk that way to me? I mean, god would never talk that way to me. I think it hurts him and makes him sad the way I talk about myself. Can I forgive myself? Forgive myself for that looks means looking at why am I doing that in the first place? What's that about and that's extremely painful.

Katy:

It is so painful and it's easier to just keep busy and maybe look at other people Like you were talking about the you know little sliver in their eye versus the plank in my own. Um. It can be easier to focus outwardly and not really turn inwardly because it's really painful and I think when I kind of peel layers back on that, when I kind of peel layers back on that, what's almost more painful is being loved by Christ Absolutely.

Katy:

Knowing that I am forgiven. Sitting with that aspect of the concept of forgiveness is that me like sinful, not nice, thinking, judgmental, whatever, fill in all the blanks of all the bad things. That like I'm forgiven, that I'm loved, like Whoa, I don't want to talk about that, you know that's a that's a hard one, I think, for us to sit with and I think just as important because I think spending time in that kind of area of forgiveness to me only fuels me to be so much more able to forgive others Right, and I think we skip over ourselves a lot in this life with a lot of different things.

Katy:

Absolutely and forgiveness is no different.

Laurine:

Yeah, you and I have talked a fair amount about that and I know we all have different ways that we're human and different little ways that we overlap and different amount about that. And I know we all have different ways that we're human and different little ways that we overlap and different paradigms. And Katie and I do have some distinct overlap with some of our story and then we have some ways that we're different, of course, because we're two different people. But it's so interesting because I have been such a closed receptacle, because my worth and my ability to love myself has been so broken and I've had so much healing in that, you know, in fact you've had a front row seat, katie.

Katy:

I have loved it. Yeah, so, um, maureen is my one of my most inspirational people in my life. I tell her all the time how much you inspire me just in your steadfastness to continue to chip away at that which was broken and wronged to you in your life as a kid and all the different things, and you just keep going. No Lord, there's more and there is just awesome.

Laurine:

Because we all are worth being loved and we all are forgiven if we've received the forgiveness of Christ and it's miraculous, and learning to believe that. And like you, katie, I have been a very harsh critic of myself and then I'm even critical of myself for the mean voice, like you still have a mean voice, you know.

Katy:

Yeah.

Laurine:

It's so often comes back to why aren't you just better, why aren't you just more together? Why don't you just do things the right way, as if there is a right way? And that's been a really long and hard process for me to forgive myself for being the little Lorraine that was doing her best. I'm still doing my best and I still almost every day have to forgive myself and say Lorraine, it's okay, you get to be human. Yeah, what's?

Katy:

that Colossians human. Yeah, as if I can be anything other than human?

Laurine:

Whoever said I needed to be anything other than that you know?

Katy:

Yeah, Does this. Yeah, Clothing yourself in compassion, like you know for myself too.

Laurine:

Yes, I get it too.

Katy:

Yes, I know Right, yeah, so, and I do think, yeah, sometimes I think it's almost like there's that it's used in a lot of different like ways, but the old kind of adage of you know if you're flying with the oxygen mask on yourself before you help someone else.

Katy:

And I think sometimes as Christians, I think that sometimes we've been sold to just to bag a lie is to say like if you are tending to yourself, you're being selfish, Right? I challenged that. I think that, like to what we're talking about with forgiveness, if I can't forgive myself, I'm probably not doing, maybe as connected to the concept of what it is that God's asking of us to forgive other people, because it's it's I think it does. It starts with our relationship with him, which is me and him, and if I'm not connected to that, how am I then putting that on on others? I'm missing a whole piece of it If I'm not able to connect to the fact that I am forgiven and really receive that.

Laurine:

Right and I think I skipped over that, honestly, in a lot of my Christian formative years. I think I skipped over it and I went right to the, to the forgive other people and repent, and all those things are, of course, important, but I do think I skipped over that beautiful fact of come and be forgiven. God loved me and he forgave me and to receive that deep in my soul. First and foremost, it's been a it's been a work in progress, so I get to continuing to practice that.

Katy:

Well, it's kind of the whole progress. Yeah, so I get to continuing to practice that. Well, it's kind of the whole like you know, going to the well, like you have to fill yourself up so that you can then have something to pour out. I mean, jesus did it. He went to the garden and needed his time to be quiet and talk to God and to then have what he needed to go out and, yeah, I think along the lines of forgiveness it's similar.

Laurine:

I've been thinking a lot about how often I've gotten stuff backwards and how we believe that Jesus was the sacrifice for our sins and that he sits at the right hand of the Father and that the Father, son and Spirit, three in one, are everything that we need, and that the throne room is this beautiful place of mercy and grace and that it's all about worship and being created for His glory.

Laurine:

And then I think that it is so easy for me to skip over the fact that it really is all a gift from Him. Everything good and perfect is from Him. It is an outflowing of his spirit. It's for me to receive first, and I still so often just get into that performance I must forgive, I must do, I must act, I must say it right, I must. And the forgiveness of Jesus and being really clothed in those robes of righteousness is really as simple as receiving it. And I love your perspective that you were talking about earlier, about how for you that hasn't been, that hasn't been the hard part, you know, receiving the love of Christ and his forgiveness.

Katy:

I mean I will interject knowing that I'm loved and knowing that how Jesus feels about me. It's not hard to know that I think he feels that way, but I do struggle with receiving it. Okay, I do, definitely.

Laurine:

Do you think that stems back to forgiving yourself as well?

Katy:

Yeah, as if we can forgive ourselves, but we can't like, like, I just I think it's around just inherent worth and value, which then gets into the whole. You know, a whole other kind of area aside from forgiveness around my, around my own personal story. You know, I grew up in in a household with just a lot of I mean, everything looked really perfect. We have that kind of in common.

Katy:

There was a lot of like perfectionism that was going on but, um, you know, in light of just some basic needs not being met well in my family, um, my brother went really really extremely um rebellious and I went the role of perfection and as a result of that, I definitely kind of learned how to be more performative and I think it was hard for me. I've done a lot of therapy. I definitely kind of learned how to be more performative and I think it was hard for me. I've done a lot of therapy or whatever, but it's been hard for me to kind of connect the dots around why I've been so self-hating and self-abusive, which obviously is so not congruent with God's love for me, right.

Laurine:

It's like very like record scratch.

Katy:

That does not go together. And so I think for me there's a sense of like, except, like, as I've learned my story I don't know if I'm making sense about this, but as I've learned more about my story and make connecting the dots of why I lean toward kind of more of a self hating role, it's because of things that weren't met well for me. And so then I'm like okay, maybe it's not that I'm a bad person. And as I've like undone some of those things, it's like maybe this is just the result of some needs that weren't met. That, as a result of those types of things, I became this way. Can I forgive myself?

Katy:

I don't know if I'm making sense.

Laurine:

That makes sense, and you know, really, when we think about it, each person that is listening and each one of us as human, we all have all sorts of varying degrees. In different ways, injustices, trials, tribulations, abuses, misuses perpetrated, and if we don't, the enemy sure as heck makes sure something wrecks havoc on our psyche so that we all have to face different issues of sin. None of us gets off scot-free. We all have to face things with varying levels of emotional maturity.

Katy:

I mean.

Laurine:

I think I have. Who knows? I never want to play the comparison game, but I've had to fight hard for some of my areas of emotional maturity and I do still get frustrated with myself and have to forgive myself again or receive the forgiveness of God again when I get frustrated because I'm not further along than I wish I was. I continue to get caught off guard by my own emotional immaturity in ways that I continue to need to quote forgive myself or receive forgiveness to release again.

Laurine:

And you know, I guess that I can take hope in the fact that we will not be finished until the day of Christ. Yes, he will continue to complete the good work within us. Yes, as we show up. But it's really an interesting process to just go deeper and deeper and like what does it mean to really forgive someone? And I continue to be challenged as I realize that I believe to forgive someone, like to really forgive them, is possible through the love of Christ, and that means we can truly have that love for them, that compassion, that kindness, that.

Laurine:

Christ has for us, which, as we know, has to be miraculous, because there are things that are hard to let go of sometimes, but I want to wish every person in my life well, and there are still some areas where I have to receive some more healing in.

Katy:

Yeah, it's along what you're saying Like, uh, it's been cool to be able to have some examples, like within my family. I mentioned a little bit about stuff but, um, my mom has passed away and I have my dad and my brother and there's a lot of things that you know are never going to be said, we're not going to necessarily have conversations and discuss and they're not going to be able to meet the needs that I desperately needed from them when I was younger in different ways. But it's been really cool, especially with my dad, for me to forgive and release the things that weren't what I needed as a kid or did a lot of harm for me as a kid. I've been able to let it go and I have found a way to be in relationship with my dad in a different way, but it is authentic and connected for me and real. But I also have more boundaries, um, and it's kind of lovely to be able to go oh, what I thought may be like, oh, no, maybe we can't be in relationship.

Katy:

Um, as I was exploring more of my story and understanding some of the things that were done not well for me as a kid, I have been able to process and forgive, and I think that's part of it. Like I was like if somebody came to me at the beginning of being going like, oh my gosh, I'm really angry at my using my dad as the example. But you know, I'm really angry at my dad about something and somebody was like well, as a Christian, you're called to forgive because you've been forgiven. That would not go over well for me because I needed to have my process and sorting through my feelings about it and I absolutely have landed at a place of releasing and forgiving my dad for things he doesn't even know that I've done that because I didn't need to actually say anything to him about it. But I was able to say it with God and I just am able to enter in in a different way and it's really cool.

Laurine:

I love that and it's so beautiful because I think in our culture without Christ, sometimes, especially right now, I think people are really heavy on protecting your emotional and mental safety and having having good boundaries and and not you know uh, what's that kind of buzz term living your truth speaking your truth and yeah all those things are so powerful, but without Christ they become a little twisted, which then removes you from relationship, and I have witnessed your relationship with your dad and the joy that's there, and I also have a restored relationship with my dad.

Laurine:

There's a lot of joy and I have come to realize some of the same things as you. Because of Christ, I don't need and because of my own maturing, I don't need any more from them.

Laurine:

In fact now things have even shifted where. I don't want to hurt him. I would rather not have him know some of the things that I believe I was wronged in. Now he's his own person. We all are human, but there are certain things that, whether or not we're knowingly perpetrated. I don't need him to understand my hurt anymore in the same way. It's not cool, it's so nice because I can just enjoy the unity and love of the relationship without needing it to be something that was never really honestly intended to be. Yeah, and I think that that's been a shift in me, for in my relationship with Monty too, and honestly with many people, it has shifted where I'm realizing I don't need them to do something for me that they were not called to do. I can be an intact emotional unit and release and forgive.

Katy:

Does that make sense? Yes, it makes me think you didn't bring this up, but like so great. So let's say we're the other side of forgiving somebody. Now what? What does it look like forgiving someone?

Katy:

Some people will forgive, like the example I used earlier with somebody I was thinking about yesterday. I won't see them again, but I knew I needed to release it because I sometimes would still think about it. I think the enemy sometimes brings up these little things and dangles them like here's something for you to chew on and be mad about, and I was like no, I'm done with that. But, like you said, with your dad and with my dad. He was here recently and it was really. We actually got into a really authentic, real conversation about some of, like some things from the past and I was able to name some things. But it was really cool because I felt like I'm on the other side of also doing a lot of therapy around this.

Katy:

But, forgiveness, I've talked to God about it a lot, I've prayed my head off about it and my dad was saying some things that I thought I would need to hear from him and I'm listening to him say them. It was so cool. It was like in real time. It was like me and the Holy Spirit, like I don't know it was, really sounds kind of weird, but he's talking and in my mind I'm having a conversation with myself going. It's nice he's saying this. I don't need to hear this anymore, so nice he's saying this.

Katy:

I don't need to hear this anymore, cause I've been, I've gotten to the other side of this because of an extension of, because of what my relationship with Christ is like and because I've been forgiven and because I've been able to live out just that freedom. It's totally changed things and I was like that's nice. He's saying all these nice things now.

Katy:

I don't need it anymore and that's okay. So I don't need the things for my dad the same way I used to, because me and Christ have done the work, we're working on it and I've been able to release it. So it's it is. There's some neat things for people who you are regularly in relationship with what it can look like on the tail end of forgiveness. Um, like on the tail end of forgiveness, how it can be lived out differently in really cool ways.

Laurine:

I think we should think about wrapping up. I think we could talk a lot more, but I want to kind of close. Do you remember that list? I believe it's in second Peter, where it talks about if these qualities are yours and increasing, and I've quoted it quite a bit on the podcast. But it ends with saying, adding to these things knowledge and self discipline, and then it ends with love and I think that's a really great gauge If you are increasing in love and joy and connection and peace and presence.

Laurine:

I know Katie and I can testify with one another that we are because we are. We are walking in increased peace and love and joy and connection with one another. Yes, it's a really tangible marker. Yeah, but if you feel like you're stuck and that you are not increasing in those things in your life, I wonder if you would be willing to pause and just submit that to the Lord and ask if there is an area that you need to receive fresh mercy and forgiveness and also extend fresh mercy and forgiveness. And his will for us is love, and that is not saying that you allow yourself to be a victim of abuse or misuse or to be a doormat or to be someone that overlooks injustices or sweeps wrongs under the rug, but what it means is that we are meant to walk in the love that Christ extended for us, and that's taken me a long time and I continue to grow in it, and it's really fun.

Laurine:

And also this morning I was sure grumbling and complaining in the shower when I was having to confess my own hard heartedness and frustration with myself once again, with not being further along for where I am. So I just want to kind of end on that note and thank you for being here, katie. I wonder if there's any last minute thoughts.

Katy:

I'd love you to wrap up yeah, just add to what you were saying about love to. A couple thoughts came to mind. One was when you said the thing about you know, just like I thought it'd be almost like I thought it'd be further along. I just was talking to somebody about that yesterday and that's why I knew the date, cause I was like, oh yeah, it's been maybe 40 years next year that I've been a believer and I'm like, wow, I thought I'd be farther along in a lot of different ways.

Katy:

But what was such a gift is right around that time, when I first became a Christian, it was summertime youth group and we had a brand new pastor that came to our church.

Katy:

We were probably a thousand people at our church. It was a pretty big church and he came to meet the kids and introduce himself. It was like I think it was junior high, because I was junior high and he said something that stuck with me my entire life. I still remember it to this day and he said you know I'm kind of, you know I'm kind of an old guy to you guys. He's like but one thing I'll tell you he's like following after Christ is a lifelong pursuit and he goes, sometimes even me as your senior pastor. The more I've learned about God and Jesus, the more I'm like, wow, there's so much more to know. And that was such one of those, one of those things that just embedded in my heart and reminded me that, like, it's okay to still be on the journey, we're always going to be on the journey, and it offered me a lot of freedom to be like there's no like arrival that I need to be at.

Katy:

So I love that. And then also I was going to say, when you kind of made the plea to the listeners here of just maybe just the challenge or whatever and I love that you said this too but just it's okay. If maybe you are in this place, it's okay to not be immediately this place of love. It is the best place to be. But I would encourage people, don't skip over yourself in that process. If you're angry, god can handle that. Bring whatever you have wherever you're at. You know you're grumbling this morning. I bet you talked to God about it. That's the best place to go and maybe you'll be in a season a little bit longer, but as long as you're still connected to God, he is love. So you are in love with you know, in the space of love because of him, even if maybe you're not feeling that way, because feelings change and it's okay to maybe be on your journey. He's got you and I just love the reminder of like, be with him and it's going to be okay wherever you're at.

Laurine:

Right.

Katy:

And yeah.

Laurine:

Yeah, I love that. Well, and on that note, because we're perfect, because he's perfect, right this moment. And I am thinking too about how our feelings are real. But they're not reality, or they're not reliable, but they are very real and we can't minimize them, yeah, and we don't want to brush them under the rug, and I just agree with you. He sees them all and he loves us anyway, no matter what. Right where we're at. Yes, we don't have to be any more or less. Yes, we're enough. What?

Katy:

a relief.

Laurine:

Freedom so well. Thank you for listening today and I pray that you will be able to take a deep breath and, just right where you're at, know he's got you, he's forgiven you and it's enough. Amen.