SHEro | "Leading Ladies in Tech" feat. Lavonne Burke and Elizabeth Rogers

Innovation meets advocacy in our latest SHEros episode: Ladies in Tech. 💻⚖️
Guest host and TYLA Past President Sally Pretorius leads a dynamic conversation with Elizabeth Rogers, Of Counsel at Winstead PC, and Lavonne Burke, Vice President Legal - Global Security & Resiliency, Digital (IT) and AI for Dell Technologies, on the evolving intersection of law and technology. From breaking barriers to building the future of legal practice, this episode highlights the women driving innovation forward.

🎧 Listen here: https://tyla.org/resource/shero-podcast/

#TYLA #SHEros #LadiesInTech #WomenInLaw #LegalTech #TexasLawyers #WomenInTech

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:09

You're listening to Shiro, a Texas Young Lawyers Association podcast celebrating the inspiring women shaping the future of law. Join us as we highlight powerful stories, share bold journeys, and honor the trailblazing women who continue to redefine what it means to be a Texas lawyer today. This is Shiro, where ambition meets inspiration.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Welcome to the Shiro's Podcast. My name is Madison Lingle, and I'm a family law attorney at Haugan Law Firm in Louisville, Texas. We are very excited to introduce our guest host for this episode of She Ros, Sally Petrous. Sally is a Texas board-certified family lawyer practicing in the Dallas Plano area at Coon's Poland. Sally served as the president for Texas Young Lawyers Association from 2018 to 2019 and served on the State Bar Board of Directors from 2017 to 2020. She currently serves as the chair of the Commission for the Lawyer Discipline and sits on the computer and technology section. Sally enjoys volunteering at her daughter's school. She also teaches law practice management as an adjunct professor at the Southern Methodist Stevens School of Law in the spring semesters. Sally is married to Adam Hodge and they have a six-year-old daughter, Hannah. Sally also has a German short-haired pointer named Molly and Scout, all who enjoy making appearances on her Zoom hearings and presentation. Please welcome Sally.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited. I will just kind of get right to it because I know what everybody pretty much wants to hear. Just full circle, just for the listeners. This was actually one of my babies when I was TYA president, was starting this podcast called Cheeros, just because I wanted to highlight so many of the amazing women out there in the legal field and give people an opportunity to hear from them. So it is so fun to bring two parts of my life together, which is I'm now involved in the tech section, and um there are two of my personal Cheiros in the tech section, and I get to interview them and talk with them today. And so one of them is Elizabeth Rogers, who I will let you guys um introduce yourselves because I think that's a little bit more what you guys can tell us what you want to see here. Um and I met Elizabeth when I was out in Austin when I first started practicing there, and she was a force to be reckoned with down there. And then I came across her on my campaign path, and she was amazing and so helpful. Um, and then Lavon, I've just looked up to her since she's been on the computer technology section. She was probably um, I know Elizabeth was chair of the computer technology section before I joined. Um, but Lavon was kind of the first female leader on there that I got to interact with when I joined. So it's been fun following her footsteps and seeing how she leads and taking lessons from her. So um with that, I'm gonna kind of let both of you guys say a few words about yourself and then we'll jump into some of the questions I have.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Okay, why don't we go alphabetical, Lavon? You go.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

I'll go first. All right, uh, I'm Lavon Burke. I am uh vice president of legal for security, resiliency, IT, uh, and AI at Dell Technology. So really exciting role that kind of merges all the emerging tech areas. Uh and I do cybersecurity, data protection, um, IT governance, data governance, and also I have the pleasure of supporting Dell's AI uh practices and governance and compliance for both our internal use of AI as well as our products. Uh, and something that I think I am really excited about is I currently serve as the chair of the computer and technology section of the state bar, uh where I know Sally and Elizabeth uh and had the pleasure of serve uh following in Elizabeth's footsteps to become uh chair. So uh that's a little bit about me.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Thank you, everybody. My name is Elizabeth Rogers. I am in the Austin office of Winstead, where I am a data privacy and cybersecurity attorney. And um leading up to this career, I began as the first chief privacy officer in Texas state government in 2011 following a data breach that back then was called massive, but now there are millions and millions of um data that is lost in data breaches. But um, it occurred in the office of the comptroller during session. At that time, the comptroller was the golden-haired leader who had the checkbook and wrote checks to all the agencies, but quickly she became someone who had bombs on her chest and had to create this position. Um, and that's where my journey began in 2011, and we'll talk more about that um in the in the program. But where it has led me um is to become, as Lavon mentioned, a chair of the computer and technology law section. And I think we both uh strongly encourage all of you to become members. It's up to the minute um content. Sally has led our publication, the circuits, um, and gotten incredible articles. Um then on a local level, I became the chair of the first um data privacy law section for the Austin Barr Association. And through all of these um experiences, I think it is not only taught me the content that is important in tech, not just privacy and cybersecurity, but leadership skills. So um I know we'll talk more about that, but I do want to mention the full circle effect, whereby I did meet Sally when she was um very proactive and being a female leader in her generation and becoming a leader in TYLA. And I actually went to the Dallas um installation of her presidency after I had left the state bar just to dance with her in one dance with a huge people, group of people on the floor. And then seeing Lavon join and become the first second chair of the computer technology and law section, she's done so much more and she's so committed to everything she does. When I tell young lawyers who want to go in-house here in Austin, I say, try it and see if Dell has any openings, and then meet Lavon Burke. And so um, with all of that having been said, I'm so grateful to and privileged to be with the two the rest of you here today.

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Awesome. Well, um, as our listeners can tell, we have a star-setted cast today. Um, it's it's just such a fun topic. And I think for those that find themselves in tech, it's you know, I think we're overcoming some of the stereotypes and the numbers are slowly changing, but it is still very much um uh, you know, a male-driven kind of area. And so it's always amazing to see such amazing leaders in the tech section. So I'm gonna start up with a warm-up question. If each of you, and we'll start with Elizabeth this time, because Lavon went first last time, if you guys could tell me in what sent one sentence, what excites you most about the future of law and technology?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

What excites me the most is the incredible potential there is for these innovations and emerging technologies to streamline and enhance legal processes, um, mainly so that legal services become more accessible to everyone. Um, there's still a huge gap in the ability to provide legal services to many in our population. And I think making it more accessible through technology will be a huge uh step forward.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

So I love Elizabeth's answer. Um, I'll probably take one that's a little bit uh more selfish in nature. Um so I love technology uh itself, right? And um I love I think being challenged at work. And what I would say is what really excites me is the fact that technology has been integrated with every part of our practice. So it's either in the actual practice of law with the integration of technology there, um, or it's actually learning the law about the technology, right? And so how you protect that law and what type of rights have to be identified, what kind of challenges you're trying to protect against, um, what kind of issues you know you are you are um looking for. And so what I would say is I'm excited because all those are the things that I have I've loved so much about my job. Uh, and so what I would say is um job security. No, that's a joke. But you know, I just kind of really think in the direction that we're going. If this is a place that you're interested in and if it's overlaps with the areas in which you already practice, you're gonna be so far ahead in, you know, um it's kind of the next steps as we see law and technology continue to evolve, um, and you'll continue to be challenged. And so, like challenging legal work for me is the reason why I stayed at Dell for so long, uh, because like I'm continuously challenged and there are things, and that now it's it's expanding not just with the technology itself that we produce and learning how to protect that, but I actually like the legal technology and how to use that in the practice of law. And so I think those are two things that um super make me super excited. Uh, and I think uh we'll be here for a while. We're just gonna see more and more evolutions continue to come um in technology and more iterations on these new legal technologies that we're actually using to practice.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

Yeah, I I I think both of those are awesome answers, and I I agree with you both, and don't think y'all could have said it but any better. Um, okay, so just to give everybody a background, I think both of y'all's backgrounds are so impressive. And if anybody wants more information, I know we'll be posting bios and headshots so you guys can get um a better feel for what each of you guys do. But I'm gonna kind of combine my next two questions is what first drew you to law and technology? And then if we know on that, if the same the next question kind of goes with that is was there a moment, Elizabeth, you touched on this a little bit, was there a moment when you realized that tech was gonna just reshape your career if you weren't initially drawn to technology?

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:59

Whoever wants to go first.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Uh well, I'll just go intern. Um, I think what really surprised me is that I was um attracted to it, you know, coming from a different generation almost. Um there wasn't even email in the office when I graduated from law school. Um, but what drew me to the practice, I was uh studying actually to be a broadcast journalist, um, to have a serious news program on Sunday mornings, kind of like Jane Paulie and Koki Roberts, but I knew I had to travel all over the US as a reporter to finally get to DC. And so I took a class, an undergrad called Law and Society because I wanted to know how to interview lawyers on the courthouse steps and just be a generalist on my way to my dream. And I fell in love with it. I knew then in that class, I was ignoring all my other major uh courses, but I started talking to the political science professors who wrote letters and I got into law school. Um I became an employment law partner, um, which brought me here to Austin after being in the private sector for about 10 years, where um I worked in San Antonio and Houston. And in Austin, I vested my state government through various positions, um, but ultimately left after my employment vested and went back to Houston to try to find a job in the private sector, um, but I left in body only. I left my soul back here in Austin. So after trying to uh like it in Houston for a little over a year, I saw an opening for the chief privacy officer role and basically thought I'm gonna wing this. I, you know, I used to work for Susan Combs um in a lawsuit when I was with the attorney general. So I thought at least she knows my name, hopefully. And I ultimately um got the job. And so I tell some young lawyers, um, for me, if I had planned my career, it would have been uh like a Pinterest fail. It would have been horrible. But I rode shotgun through so many um iterations, and now that's where I am in technology.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

So I mean, what about the best Pinterest fail ever, though? I mean, that's so fun to see like how you're it just kind of changed and just things are popping up. And I think Levon's probably gonna see that and probably part of her career. It's probably gonna fit a ton with everything that's been happening the past couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, so I I would say so. I um I'm an engineer by training. I have an undergrad and a uh graduate degree in engineering. Um, so but they're in chemical engineering and biomedical engineering, so completely different path. I started thought that when I started I was going to medical school. So I always wanted to do technology, but I wanted to do it from the healthcare perspective and like creating medical technologies and um pharmaceutical and drug development. Uh, and so it was that area of technology. Um had a career change early in my mid-20s, uh, and decided that uh, you know, maybe medical school wasn't the direction I wanted to go, but I needed to figure out what I was gonna do with all this other education. And I was like, hey, part of the way I helped pay for graduate school is I worked in um pharmaceutical litigation in DC doing hatch waxman litigation. And so I was like, oh, this is a way for me to be able to use my skills. Um, and I was a scientific and technical advisor. So I was like, I'm gonna go to law school and made a really quick decision to go to law school. Um, and then what I knew at the time was what were you gonna practice? So I was like intellectual property law. That's what I knew, it was a good fit for me. Um, and it exposed me to a lot of different technologies. And so I'm gonna kind of combine the answers between the two of these questions. So I thought that I was going into the space to go practice pharmaceutical and biotech patent litigation work, right? So hatch waxman litigation and whatnot. Um, I did that for a a little while and also some other transactional work, and I liked it. But what I didn't expect to do, expect to like was when I got put on a couple of cases, which at that time was called high-tech. So I'm old. High tech cases, where we were working for some uh, you know, technology companies and we were looking at software, and then we started doing, I started getting brought into some licensing deals and those kind of things, and some transactions and MA work and a bunch of other work that was in the space. And ironically, I love the technology work or the high-tech work of dealing with software and dealing with all these areas. Uh, and so I kind of pivoted my career first, well, second pivot, but where I thought I was going into litigation space, and I thought I was going into biotech and pharmaceutical litigation, uh pet litigation, I moved and started doing technology work and learning everything I could around software, software development, uh, hardware, computers, technology, et cetera, uh, and really fell in love with that. And then from that, I realized that, you know, I needed to learn how to not only was protecting people's intellectual property, but also the kind of other side of that was how do you actually protect the information and protect the technology? And that's how I kind of went down the path of working. Uh, I was at Vincent and Elkins for quite a while and helped launch a cybersecurity and data protection practice and kind of went into that space. Um, and then then, you know, one thing happens after another and then continue to move along. But I will say that I think those are really the ways that I found out. It was by happenstance again. Um, some things that happened outside of my control that I didn't realize I was going to get exposed to different areas. But I will say the one thing I would always, you know, kind of just uh uh an early kind of knowing kind of our questions here, but just be open to new experiences because you never know. I thought that it was one thing that I wanted to do, but I was exposed to something by happenstance of just filling in, you know, for uh a senior associate was that was out to do some work and ended up falling in love with it. And really that has transformed my practice over the last uh 15 years.

SPEAKER_04 17:20

I mean, I think this is like the best group of failures I've ever seen. We have a Pinterest failure, a broadcast failure, and a doctor engineer failure that are probably and you guys are probably bringing all of those skills very much and have probably made you very successful in what you do because I can't imagine a better. I mean, Elizabeth, you are just so relatable when you talk to people. So I think that you having that broadcast, you know, like that that passion for that has made you really likable. And you know, you probably have the skill of being able to understand technology and then explain it to people, which is that bedside manner that a lot of attorneys are missing, but um, sounds like your background was perfect for it. And then Lavon, woman in tech, I mean, in STEM, and then you just kind of pivoted right into where you belong. So that's awesome. Um, for the both of you guys, what has surprised you guys now that you guys have transitioned and you guys are considered in the tech realm, what has surprised you most about working in tech or innovation or in your respective practices? Like, what's been the most surprising thing?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

So I I think because we're we're heavily like in the the tech innovation space, um what I I probably didn't expect was that there weren't going to be laws to accompany the issues that I was dealing with. Right. And so in law school, you learn there's kind of a law for everything. Uh and even when you're practicing, you know, you're going and citing cases and you're finding a law that's you know on point and you're you're you know, writing your briefs based upon that, or you're going based on existing precedent of what you learn. Um, we're in a place right now, particularly with artificial intelligence, that the laws don't exist, or they're in their infancy, or even if they have been released, they don't adequately address the issues that you're actually facing in real time, both from a legal perspective as well as what our engineers are seeing and our developers are seeing, uh, and what people are expecting it, you know, these technologies to be able to do. Um, and so being really at that point in, you know, where you are like the definition of cutting edge, like you're out there, you know, you're in the trenches with these new tools and technologies that are being developed, um, but there's not necessarily on point law, uh, was a place where I probably didn't foresee my career being. Um, and so it's very exciting, but I also will say that it also takes a lot of looking back on existing experience and in common law principles and those kind of things and bringing those to bear and trying to make best judgments uh on using your legal basis and background to be able to make the most informed decisions and try to mitigate as much risk as possible, right, while still allowing your stakeholders to be able to innovate uh as quickly as they can. And so that is a place where I probably didn't see that. Um, but I would also say that it's probably going to be the new norm as these technologies continue to evolve. And so the people that are in the place and dealing with this as a as part of their legal practices, um, I would just say, you know, strap your boots on because uh we're we're this is we're we're all in for a ride, I think.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Yeah, I mean, I think we've all been seeing that, right? Like there's just it every day there's some new court bringing down a new local rule dealing with something and nobody knows how to interpret it or what it means. Like, how do we interpret this? What do how do we apply it? Do we just attach this standing order to our pleadings? Do we have to do anything extra special? I think every day it's something new, but that's kind of what makes it exciting. Um Elizabeth, for you. Oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yeah, yeah, I think I think for me, what it was the most surprising is the lack of the need for a technical background. And um, so I was the opposite of engineering in my my path, you know, for my career from the onset. Um, and I think that what takeaway I would give for young women lawyers contemplating a career shift or adding on to their career is to not be intimidated by the need or a fear that technical expertise is required. Um, if you have started in a compliance area, which is what I did in employment law, I did compliance and litigation. Compliance stays with you from practice to practice area. And so I think once you learn how to help your client think through compliance risk, how to shift that risk, how to protect the client, then um whether you are going to be Um, sort of bifurcated like myself, do privacy and cybersecurity, whether you're going to focus on either one, just be familiar, be conversational in the topic. Um, know that there are going to be people who who are experts in the area that you need to supplement your advice to your client, the path forward for them, and be ready to work on a team, whether you're in-house like LeVonne or in the private sector law firm space, because as we may discuss later, being in-house is where I started. And that is where you have to make brothers, friends with your brothers and sisters in information security and IT. You cannot do a job as a lawyer in technology without those uh resources, and you do not have to be technically superior in in the practice of technology law.

SPEAKER_04 22:58

Yeah, I I couldn't agree with both of y'all more. Um, and my next question kind of spouts from both of those. And uh, one thing that I've been kind of careful about in my career is I always I I always like to believe in my mind, and I don't know if you guys are there yet, is I like to think like I'm like, man, women in the law in the tech profession, at this point in time, we should just be giving general advice, right? Like the advice I give any of my students or the advice I give any of my associates should be the same whether or not you're a female or a male. And I don't know if we're quite there yet. I always like to tell myself that that lie in the middle of my head that it's not different. But I think for women it is a little bit different, right? Because we have families and we have, you know, there's just something different about the way we think and just obligations and how we process information. Um so both of you guys have been in leadership and you guys have done an amazing job of really paving the way for attorneys like me and other, you know, some of our colleagues, and many of the younger, you know, the attorneys that are listening to this are gonna be 20 years my senior, my my junior. So it's gonna be interesting. But do you guys have any advice for women about how they can position themselves to lead and to at the same time adapt their careers like both of you guys have done with all of these changes?

SPEAKER_01 24:18

That's a really great and that's an interesting question, and I probably have an interesting perspective about it because um I was at a law firm for several years, um then went in-house, and I was at Johnson ⁇ Johnson before for a couple of years before I came to Dell. So been at large Fortune 50 companies, set a fortune, you know, AM 100 law firm before. Um and it was it was challenging because you did not see a lot of women that were in the space, right? Particularly in the areas in which I practice. That is from the beginning, from the IP lawyer, particularly as a minority IP lawyer. I remember I would say that I probably could count on my hand in the state of Texas how many people there were that practiced law, like I did. Um and so I didn't have a lot of people I felt like to go ask for advice or to ask questions and felt like many times I was navigating those places on my own. The one thing I would say is like find a mentor, find a someone, not so much for that they can give you a job, like, but just to give you advice on how to navigate things, right? And how to deal with those. When I came to Dell, um it was the first time that I worked for a as a lawyer for a working mother that was a senior vice president, that had had two kids, and understood the complexities of doing that at a senior level and as an executive level. And so that was just absolutely amazing to me. Um, particularly since a couple months after I started working for her, I found out I was expecting my first child. Uh, and I was a director at the time. And I was like, man, I just don't even know how this is gonna play because I'd I'd seen so many of my friends struggle having kids in law firms, and women in particular, and watched so many of them that had left being an outside counsel because the demands and the scheduling were just, you know, more you know, I hate to say it, but in many times they were. There were obligations that sometimes fell to the mother that were really challenging. And I saw a lot of women drop out of the that part of the workforce, right? And they would go in-house for those reasons. Um, whether it's it's ride fair or indifferent or whatnot, it that's what happened. Uh, and so I was like, man, this is crazy. So I'm like, I was piling at a place, I'm excelling. Um I didn't know what was going on, and I got a call one day that I was being promoted to vice president. And I was ecstatic. I was like, man, this is really amazing. But I also was like, I'm about to have a baby. Yeah, what does this mean? You know, am I gonna are they gonna take this away from me? How am I gonna manage this? Like, how am I gonna do all these things at the same time? Um and it was it was hard. I was afraid to go on maternity leave and take my full time. Um I was afraid how I was gonna be perceived when I came back. I was afraid that people were gonna think I was lesser than or whatnot, or not able to work as many hours as I had been, because the one thing I always prided myself on was like I could outwork everybody and do those things. And then now I had this baby that I wanted to be a mom for. I waited so long to have a child, and I was like, ah man, this is this is a hard path. Um, and what I would say is like things have worked out, it has not been easy, but I think it's not easy for anyone that's in a senior executive position or executive role with a young child. I don't think that it, I think it's hard. I see my male colleagues suffer and and and have those same challenges that I do, and we talk about that of trying to get to kids' events and try to, you know, where you've got all these meetings, and I know my friends and partners at law firms are in the same spots. Um, but we all seem to make it, right? And so what I would say is like the biggest thing that I had to learn was number one, give yourself grace. Because you're gonna fail at all of these things at some point or another, or you'll feel like it. Um, but you're also kind of like give yourself grace because you're doing a pretty good job, right? And even if you're not your best every day, you're doing a good job. And so what I realized like was having a boss that was a mentor and able to kind of give me guidance and tips to try to navigate those and things like that helped me so much. And it also gave me the confidence representation matters, it matters so much when you see somebody else that has gone and done the things that you're trying to do, and you see someone doing it successfully, and I was able to see other women. And one of the things she did connect me with was let me connect you with other women executives, because we have to operate differently around here. And that was one of the things that she said, and you need to understand, like, you know, maybe get a different perspective. And I want you to have as many of those resources as possible, and that was game changing for me. Not to say that I didn't have other male resources and whatnot, but asking those questions, like, how would I be perceived? What do you think about this? Running all those issues of doubt or concern in my mind by women who had gone through that same path as me was just absolutely um game-changing. And so I would say, like, just try to seek those people out. I have people inside the company now, but I what I also realized was really important to me was also having people outside of Dell that do the same thing, that are in those same spaces and having mentors and my personal board of directors to ask those questions about. Um, but I would encourage everybody to do that because I think that those are things that are are really important. Um, and I've never said like I have to give different advice or give myself different advice, but I've always I've felt like had to give myself different advice just in the spaces that I occupy, right? And just understanding what that reality is.

SPEAKER_04 30:00

Um, so one thing just to piggyback off before I turn to Elizabeth, I'm gonna interject. I'm like, I always feel like women, we do the worst thing about saying, like, when we want to ask, like we're like, oh, we need help on this certain aspect or we need this. We think we have to have like this formal, like, oh, I'm gonna ask Elizabeth to be my mentor, and then I'm going to sit her down for coffee and she's gonna give me all this info. But what I found is like mentorship exists more in the hey, I have a quick text. Like, what are you doing with your kid? What did you do with this? Like, what are you doing? And like just the the quick, like little interactions have been.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

What did you do for the summertime when they're out on break and you didn't read school is not in session anymore and you still have to go to work every day? Like, you those are the same.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

What did you do? Like, hey, so and so is being mean to me. Is it just because he's a man or is that because that's the way he treats everybody, or even with females, like is she always that way to you, or is it just me? And like, I think that's how like mentorship really kind of evolves now, and it's not this sit down, it's inorganic, yes, and the inorganic nature of it, I think makes the best relationships to be honest, with a lot of those things. Nope.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

I agree with you, Seller.

SPEAKER_04 31:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Okay, I'll turn over to Elizabeth. What you got? Yep. Okay, so I think we combined two questions, so I'll have the two-part answer also. And I think that what we need to do, or at least what I recommend, including to my own daughter, um, to adapt to changes and um be visible, is to honestly to lean in. And um, I know that's not original, but it's so important to stay visible. My um just using my daughter as an example and partly myself. Um, she was a director of business strategies for Glassdoor as a Glassdoor employee. And in August, there was a riff for Glassdoor and Indeed, and she was absorbed by Indeed and um moved from a person in the C-suite at Glassdoor to now, you know, a little frog in a big pond. And her biggest concern is mom, you know, I don't nobody knows me here. And what I tell her, and it has worked, and other women my age or younger is to be visible, volunteer, whether you're in a law firm or in in-house, show that you are passionate about something. For example, just recently I volunteered to co-lead the associate development program that does not currently exist here at Winstead, and we're talking about it. And that means that people are not only going to see me as, you know, a specialist in this area, but they see that I'm committed to this community inside of my firm. And they see also I'm not just here for the paycheck, I'm here for the future. And I think whether you're a younger attorney or middle-aged or senior attorney, showing that you're committed and that you don't see your your gender as a barrier, but you see it as an asset and a value to your organization shows that you're fearless. And I think that as young women, we've got to show that we have to learn how to overcome some of our own insecurities that we have and get rid of them and just buzz through them. And for example, my daughter now, part two, was three and a half years old when I graduated from law school. And people asked me, how in the world did you do that? And I said, I don't know how women do it in a law firm, because I mean, I could adapt my schedule in law school to study when she was sleeping, take her to an early learning center as she grew, um, and I was in class. Um, but the point is that whether we call it a men mentor or a friend, I think you start with that. And I think it is whether it's male or female, I think now women who are younger have the advantage of men who grew up, you know, born in the mid-80s or 80s, and grew up seeing mothers and fathers both working, and fathers, males have become very sensitive to the challenges women face. And I have both. I have a friend who I talked to about we, you know, how do we plan our future here? You've got this issue, I've got that issue, but we're on an island in some ways. Like, how do we get in front of the people to show them our value across the state, not just, you know, in Dallas or in Houston. So finding that friend that you can vent to, because I remember when I was an associate, a fifth-year associate at Haynes and Boone, and I went into the office of a woman who had been an emergency room nurse in Afghanistan and went to law school, became a healthcare lawyer, and I sat there and said, I'm quitting. I am absolutely quitting. I've taken on this partner's work for the last two weeks while he was in London. He comes back and he doesn't even thank me. I missed my daughter's this, my daughter's that. I'm done. And she talked me off the ledge and said, Stop it. You make partner, and then any door that you want to open will open for you. And if I had not listened to Roz, I probably would have made the biggest mistake in my life. We need each other to be each other's cheerleader. We need each other to push each other, even when it doesn't feel like the right thing that day. Looking into the future, we need to create the opportunities for ourselves. It's nice to have a connection and definitely know how to leverage those connections, but do it yourself because eventually there will be a time when all you have left is yourself at that point in your career to make very big decisions about your next five years and just build that internally and try to overcome the fears that sometimes are not our friend. Yeah.

unknown 36:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

I mean, that's such good advice. The best part about doing these is when I get to hear from other people, it's like a good, like heartwarming time for me to hear and like process it of where I am. You know, whether you have kids or you have whatever it is, it could just be dealing with a relationship or an aging loved one, just to hear that and knowing that, like, hey, just hit your goals and it's all gonna work out is is I don't know. I always think that's I don't know, it's always good for everybody to hear no matter where they are. Um, what do you guys think we could do to help young women build confidence when they're entering some of these male-dominated spaces?

SPEAKER_01 36:49

So I've been 100% in male-dominated spaces, I feel like, since undergrad, right? Um very few women in engineering, very few women in IP law, very few women in cybersecurity law, all these places. Very few women work in tech. I won't say very few, but not to the same number as men. Um, numbers are getting better, but they're still not great. The one thing that I would tell you is you should always be able to bet on yourself, and having confidence in yourself will give you confidence to be able to, you know, move through these challenging circumstances. And so what you can always do is like prepare yourself so when the opportunity presents itself that you are prepared for it, or prepare yourself so that you can help create an opportunity for yourself. Uh, and so what I be by that is in these spaces, what you can do, you can't really uh guarantee that the kind of work that you're gonna do and you're gonna get, but you can make yourself an expert in that space. So when when the time comes, you will know. You know, one of the things that I I tried to do um early on was I read every law, I read every regulation, I understood how they were gonna apply in these different spaces. I became an expert in that, like globally an expert in that, because I wanted people to be able, I could cite the regulations off and tell you, you know, everything that's happening in this tech space or cybersecurity in these in these areas to be able to do that. So when people were like, oh, she knows what she's talking about. Yeah. So a lot of people that came up and questioned, you know, me early on, sometimes still get that as to about whether or not you have the expertise to be in that space. Um, but that is one thing that I think is it's very I won't say it's easy to do because it takes a commitment. Um, but I'm always the thing you want to be an expert in the space in which you practice in anyway, um, because I think that makes you a better lawyer. So you understand the technology, you understand the regulations, you understand that information. Uh, and then when people come to you being a subject matter expert in the space in which you practice, quiets a lot of that noise. And so when people are able to say that you are a SME and you know that, then a lot of that noise goes by the wayside, right? And so that you can command a different level of respect when you have that experience and expertise behind you. So those are things that I would say you can, you know, it's when the preparation meets the opportunity. Um, and I would say that that is what has been very helpful for me in in trying to be able to navigate those spaces where you know people don't question that anymore. And I would say um, if you're in, if you're a young woman and you want to go into one of these tech spaces and you're interested, or even if you, you know, you don't want to go into technology law, but you know, you're practicing and you want to, what can you become an expert in? I used to think about that all the time. I was like, what can I become an expert in? I decided I want to become an expert in cybersecurity. I kept saying it's gonna be really hard for me to be an expert, you know, like uh this world-renowned patent litigation lawyer, just because of looking at the barrier to entry and all those things. I was like, what can I do to try to differentiate myself? Like, how can I become an expert in these spaces? And kind of looking on what that horizon is. Like, and I think that this is a time to Elizabeth's earlier point, you don't have to be have to have the technical background to like you could become an expert in learning how to use AI in the practice of law and the legal technology tools, and that could be your differentiator. But find something that is gonna like a niche that's gonna make you that you can um basically define your expertise in and create your expertise and build a brand around and go for that because I think that's gonna get you a lot farther. Um, and it allows you to be able to overcome some of those biases that may prevent you or would have previously prevented you from being able to get into an area that you want to practice.

SPEAKER_04 40:37

Yeah, and I I think that's so awesome and true. I think that applies to whether you're a female, a male, whatever it is, a young attorney, just being an expert, it's the best way to overcome any sort of hesitancy anybody has about where you are. And that's it.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

It is including how many years you have in your space, right? Because you may be like, you're like, well, I can all the only thing that I can do is get more experience and more time. Yes, you can, but if you're also an expert, it can potentially shortcome up shortcome shortcut some of that, where it's like you don't have to wait 10 years to be able to show that you have the ability to go take a deposition. If now you know all these tools and you know all this information and you're really an expert in those spaces, I just think it it potentially offers a lot of upside.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Yeah, I agree. So my take on this would be similar, but a little more granular because I think I think it's important for that to be the end goal is to be the expert. But at the very beginning, when you're thinking about it, crossing into it, taking a new job, dabbling in it yourself, my number one piece of advice is learn the vocabulary so that you can be invited to the table by your peers. Unfortunately, tech jobs in general, especially tech compliance jobs, still have the reputation of being Dr. No. The person who's gonna say, no, you can't do that. It's too risky. Um, no, you can't move into the cloud, which you know, we I was dealing with at the state about 11 or 14 years ago. People were scared of just going into the cloud. Um, and so what I did is I did not a law dive, I did a technical vocabulary dive so that my brothers and sisters and the you know, IT information technology and um information security knew I understood the concept before even considering whether there was a law that applied. And back then there weren't even any privacy laws at the state level. Um, there were some executive orders related to cybersecurity, so there wasn't anything anyone could become an expert about other than having good business judgment, knowing how to sit at a table and be invited to that table. And whether it's a male or female or hybrid dominated environment, it's important to make friends with the people who are going to assign you projects. And I I recommend being friends with the males if you're in a male-dominated environment. Um, and do not be scared of that, because oftentimes they're the people who influence decisions that affect your career, even in a, you know, whether it's a law firm or in-house, but at the very beginning, basic level, be fluent. You don't maybe don't, you know, you're not able to be conversational. Um, but if you have that advantage, because you have a computer science degree or otherwise, you have a leg up, and then just build on top of that and and connect with people who are able to recognize that talent.

SPEAKER_04 43:42

Yeah, I you guys are kind of hitting it on the nail's head right now. It's good advice for any young attorney. Um, okay. I think uh just because we're running a little bit close to time, I'm gonna hit you guys with the rapid fire questions and then let you guys um Take it away with the final message for every young female lawyer. But okay, so for each of you guys, we'll kind of start with Elizabeth and the next question will go to Levon and we'll ping back back and forth. So both of you guys can answer each one. Okay, one book, podcast, or resource you would recommend?

SPEAKER_00 44:14

The book I recommend is by Brad Smith, and he was originally general counsel of Microsoft. He's now CEO, so he grew from papers in the box and the multiple thousands of square feet at Microsoft to everything going into the cloud. And he wrote the book that the weapons and tools of technology. So use it, how it could be used as weapons, and how it might be used as tools. And one of his quotes are that the companies that are the most will be the most successful in the 21st century are the companies that are the most responsible with data, but it's so much um more rich content. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

So I'll go to a quick uh one. Uh and forgive me for the name, but artificial intelligence for dummies. I think it breaks down, um, it's a technical guide that I think breaks down a lot of the confusion around AI for people who are really trying to get their hands around what it exactly means, because it's definitely more than just a GPT, like people are hearing. Uh, and if you are in the process of trying to, to Elizabeth's point, learn the vocabulary and learn the vernacular and actually understand what you're talking about. I think it's a really quick guide uh to be able to do that and give you a good baseline and then start uh your path into learning more in the space.

SPEAKER_04 45:38

I may have to order that one myself, just because I feel like some of the technology or the wording just changes so quick. Um, okay, one word to describe the future of loss. Levon, we'll go to you on that one.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Um, oh, metamorphosis, maybe. I feel like it's changing rapidly, and we don't know what's gonna come out on the other side. Uh, but yeah, that's what I would have to say.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

All mine is very similar, innovation. Yeah. Um, a woman leader who inspires you. I'm having a hard time remembering her name, but the woman who was working for Facebook. Sandberg, Cheryl Sandberg. Cheryl Sandberg, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Uh, I would actually say uh Justice Kantanji Brown.

SPEAKER_04 46:25

Okay, a tech tool you cannot live without iPhone.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

I'm gonna go the opposite side and say the Samsung Galaxy Z phone. Oh no. Because I'm actually able to travel uh without my laptop and can do virtually everything I can do on a laptop on that phone because it folds out and I've had this phone for a couple years. This is a couple iterations on this. Um, but it is probably the best tech investment that I have have made. That's so funny. It's always a Samsung versus iPhone.

SPEAKER_04 46:57

I love it. But I'm saying my just for the size and the building that I can actually work on it when I'm not. The green bubble. You are the green bubble. Um okay, best career advice you've ever received.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

I would say as far as being a lawyer, um, no experience is bad experience. Because at the end of the day, you're gonna learn for that and it makes you a better lawyer, right? And so as much experience you can get in different areas also, I think, give you appreciation and the ability for your clients and the ability to practice better law in a more consultative way. Uh, and so I would say like all the experience that I've had, very disparate from the time that I started, have made me the lawyer I am. You never know at the end of the day what that Pinterest board is gonna look like when you finish. Uh, but I think all those experiences, the mosaic of all those experiences, make you the lawyer that you are at the end. So be open to change.

unknown 47:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Yep. I think mine is very similar, and my uncle gave this advice to me when I was considering not completing law school after I had my daughter and I was married, and I told him, I don't think I can do it. I just don't think I'm gonna be able to do it all. I want to be a good wife, I want to be a good mother, I want to be a really good person in the legal profession, so I think I'm going to be a paralegal and I can do everything, um, including going into court, except for representing the client. And so my uncle told me, okay, you do that. You go ahead. You know, this is back in 1985. You'll max out about$40,000, and your daughter will graduate from college, and then you won't have ever fulfilled your dreams. And he said, if you're worried about the money, take it one semester at a time. You're gonna be able to pay that debt back. So I translated that into every single fear I had as a woman, trying to do it all. And I recommend highly to not let your fears stand in your way. I think that is the best advice I ever had from him, and I owe where I am today for walking up into the first law firm I ever worked for. And I got off the elevator and I said, I am a partner at this firm. And from the moment I started, I acted like a partner. I made decisions like an owner would. I talked to the partners like a partner, like this is what I plan to do. What do you think about that? I didn't go to a partner's office and say, What should I do about that? So I think it's so important to have confidence in yourself and find it wherever you can. Reach back from when you were a child and you had the best cheerleader going for you, and then become that for yourself.

SPEAKER_04 49:51

Yeah, I I mean, I feel like that's gonna be hard to follow up. So I'm gonna leave my rapid fire questions there. Um, okay, so um, as we kind of wrap up, I wanted if either of you guys have any last message for our listeners or how if they feel really inspired by whatever you said today, which I'm sure you guys have tons of people reaching out, um, how they can follow you guys or connect with each of you guys, and um we'll wrap it up after that.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Yeah, I would just like to say thanks so much for having me today. I thought this was a really phenomenal idea and so excited to be able to support uh and participate on the podcast. Um, I'm on LinkedIn and I transact the vast majority of my professional networking through LinkedIn. So if someone would like to reach me, you can reach me and search for Lavon Burke on LinkedIn. And uh I shouldn't be hard to miss. So please uh connect with me. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Yeah, thank you likewise, and it's so been so wonderful to listen to Lavon and Sally, both two women who have proven you can have heart and you can have brains and you can get to the places that people never thought might be possible. Uh, but it takes a lot of determination. My final takeaway is I think you need to stay social, be out there, and stay scholarly, be visible as a leader in the field. And then you can find me on LinkedIn as well.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

Awesome. Well, all the thanks is from us to you guys. You guys have uh made this come full circle. It's been so fun to hear from you guys. And it's I'm gonna go, it's a great way to start my Monday on, you know, just to get going and hear from you guys and feel rejuvenated and revived and like we can all go out there and get this and a good reminder of some of those lessons that we all need to remember and learn and go about building our Pinterest boards and going from our failures and making the best of them, like both of you guys have. I don't think either of you guys have failed in any aspect. You guys have um created the most beautiful Pinterest boards that I think a lot of people can live up to. So, with that, thank you guys from the bottom of my heart for today. And I will turn it back over to Texas Young Lawyers and let them work their magic.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Thank you for joining us on Shiro. These stories of first-generation women lawyers and women of color remind us that breaking barriers helps to build bridges for the future. You can find this episode along with all past and upcoming ones on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep leading, lifting, and writing the next chapter.