Jeffrey Sardinha, managing director, Head of ETF Solutions – Americas, State Street and Laurent Kssis, CEO, CEC Capital tackle the latest developments in the burgeoning crypto ETP market in this podcast.
This episode of Off the Record is sponsored by Truss Edge, providers of front, middle and back-office software and services to ETF issuers.
Jeffrey Sardinha, managing director, Head of ETF Solutions – Americas, State Street and Laurent Kssis, CEO, CEC Capital tackle the latest developments in the burgeoning crypto ETP market in this podcast.
This episode of Off the Record is sponsored by Truss Edge, providers of front, middle and back-office software and services to ETF issuers.
Beverly Chandler
Hello, my name is Beverly Chandler and I welcome you to this outing of Off the Record, the podcast about all things ETF brought to you by ETF Express in partnership with Truss Edge, providers of front, middle and back office software and services to ETF issuers. All views expressed in this podcast are the speakers’ own and we hope suitably controversial. In this outing for Off the Record, we are going to focus on all things crypto and ETP related. I'm very pleased to bring you Jeffrey Sardinha of State Street and Laurent Kssis of CEC Capital on the rise of cryptocurrency based ETPs in Europe, Canada and the US, with a particular focus on the latest round of regulatory approvals allowing the launch of spot Bitcoin ETFs in the US. So I'm going to ask you each where are we with cryptocurrency ETP regulation in our various geographical jurisdictions? I'll start with Laurent, who sort of represents Europe. Laurent, where are we with ETF regulations in Europe? Actually, we're a bit smug, right? But tell us how it is.
Laurent Kssis
Thanks, Beverly, and hello everybody. So frankly, we are still at the same as we were potentially last year. The only difference now is we have a huge player that came in, which is the US, and that's just brought in a lot more attention. So we in Europe have been enjoying around $10 billion worth of AUM from various crypto strategies that have come onto the market and one thing we need to be mindful is Europe is very fragmented. Unlike the US, where you have one language, one jurisdiction, one legal channel, one culture, in Europe we don't have that. We need to be focused on individual national markets and obviously the the concerns for for various issuers, whether they're crypto or even traditional finance, is that they've got to list their product on the national exchanges of all of the different countries. And that obviously fragments the markets because what we do see that has happened at least with a crypto business is that if you don't list in a in a home jurisdiction, let's say for instance like Germany or France or even the UK, then you're not gonna get, you're not gonna capture the local retail flow that is important. It's not paramount, but it's certainly important. And then on top of this, what you have to include is currency exposure because most local brokers cannot settle in US dollars for instance, so they have to consider Sterling, Euro, Swiss Francs and various others currencies that are so key to various national jurisdictions. And so from that perspective, what's happening on the legal side, well, on if we look at Europe, not much has changed. We still have a very dominant exposure to a very crypto friendly jurisdiction environment framework in Switzerland, followed very closely by Germany and this can be related to the issuance of of vehicle products as well as blockchain and innovation to blockchain technologies. So that has been there for a couple of years. What we are seeing however is a slow shift going into regulated entities now. So before we saw Fintech coming up with very innovative products and now what the regulators are demanding is that these entities are becoming regulated, so they are there and comply to a lot of rules, local rules obviously by each individual countries still may be governed by ESMA overall, which ESMA is the overall European jurisdiction. But inevitably, what we're seeing now is a focus where, let's say a custodian, a crypto custodian, will have to be now regulated in order to conduct his business in Europe. So from that perspective, we are seeing a lot more entities that are moving in the regulatory framework of each individual countries and that's good for the acceptance of investors. And here what we're looking at predominantly is institutional investors, because at the end of the day, they're the one who generally have the larger tickets than the retail. And so for them, it's been a long wait and see game. And with the introduction of the ETF Bitcoin business that we see in the US, a lot of entities have waited and now they're actually coming in, and what we've seen in the last week has been unprecedented. The amount of inflows, particularly the last couple of days has been generally initiated by retail, US retail, but at the same time I'm sure Jeffrey will mention this, but also we're now seeing a layer of investment that is unprecedented by institutional investors. So I'll probably stop there because it's probably a good transition for Jeffrey to step in.
Beverly Chandler
So Jeffrey, yes, tell us about the obviously, the the extraordinary news that came last month. But in case there's somebody out there who doesn't know, maybe recap on what happened and where we are at in the US with Bitcoin ETFs.
Jeffrey Sardinha
Sure, and and thanks for having me. So the the story is actually a little bit a little bit simpler than what Laurent had to go through on on Europe, cause I agree with him, the the fractured marketplace in all the different markets makes this a lot harder I think for them that it does here in the US and Canada. So I I guess, let's start with the US. Beverly, you didn't bury the lead. We did get the final approval back I think it was January 11th. After, you know, trying to think of the first phone call I got on a Bitcoin ETF and it was probably 10 years now. So 10 years of fits and starts in the US finally culminated with the approval on Jan 11. So we're about, you know, 30 or so business days in. It's been extremely, the the growth has been extremely outside of what anybody really expected, which we can, we can talk about in a moment. I think the thing that folks need to understand and it's both goes both across the US and Canada, it's still pretty limited meaning not only is the not only are the coins that are allowed to be held within an ETF super limited; I mean in the US, it's really only Bitcoin Spot Bitcoin. In Canada, it's Bitcoin and Etherium and that's where it ends. We have some mixed portfolios in Canada that have both Bitcoin and Etherium in them, but that's kind of where it's stalled out in Canada. In the US, again, Bitcoin only. I think the the story in the US right now is is two things. One, limited coin limited access in the primary market, meaning it's really only cash dealing today where you know a typical ETF would have both cash dealing and in kind dealing. The regulators couldn't get comfortable with the in kind dealing with the large banks which are the authorised participants that would need to access the Bitcoin. That's really not done today. So cash dealing was the only route we could have done to get the product up and running which is kind of where the marketplace went so. It was a good story overall. I think in terms of expansion to Etherium, which is probably next, we did see some rumbles over the last month. You know, I saw an S1 get revised recently. I saw a ITB4 (07:26) get revised recently. I think the next logical date that the regulators need to do something, which is likely going to be to punt frankly, is in May. So we'll see where that goes. So yeah, it's been, it's been fantastic here in the US, the growth outweighed what anybody expected. And and I think just one quick thing on Europe, while while I have the microphone, I think one of the things that's still gonna be a struggle in Europe, I don't know if Laurent agrees or not, but digital assets aren't classified as financial assets yet. So so they're they can't be held in a UCIT, which is where a lot of ETF assets are are wrapped. So right now, most of those Bitcoin products or any digital products are really SPVs, or Special Purpose Vehicles. So I think it's going to limit the reach until we can get to a point where they're classified as financial assets. So I think there's a there's a long road to go, I think geographically across the across the globe.
Laurent Kssis
Yeah, I I totally agree with Jeffrey and and this is what we faced in Europe. We you know, we call them ETPs, first of all, right? They're not ETF, they're not funds. They are structured products from the start and this is purely because of this UCIT requirements which demands you know, exposure to a basket and a security and of course, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are not classified as financial assets. So from that purpose, you know they don't fit the bill fully and we will never see really a a Bitcoin ETF in Europe, even though there's one that has announced themselves as as a Bitcoin ETF, but they're using a a regulatory arbitrage from a an offshore jurisdiction. And what one of the comments, if I may just add that Jeffrey highlighted is the cash dealing that exists in the US unlike in Europe, we don't have that. Everything is in kind so that means that anyone who wants to invest into these products can only do it in kind. So you know, we have the so-called authorised participants, they are active intermediaries that generally deal with cryptos, and they will only be able to deliver in kind asset, so crypto asset, to the issuers. There's no cash generally that that exchanges hand, it's purely the underlying assets. So there is a bit of friction in the US that we don't see. However, I don't think that's been bothering anyone because the inflows has been has been tremendous. And and of course like like Jeffrey mentioned, this has purely been Bitcoin, whereas where we enjoy today as much more diversified structures. We have baskets, we have thematics. We have beat smart betas, also inverse, and I'm sure they they soon we will also have futures exposure which we don't have today in Europe, right. So that's that's very important. And these products in Europe, these ETPs, are not allowed to hold any derivatives today but I'm sure that we will see some proxy coming into the market. And again with the jurisdiction in various countries being very strict and and other problem we also have is Dublin where you know the Commissioners do not qualify crypto as a financial asset, we're we're still pretty much lagging despite the fact that the Irish market is one of the biggest ETF platform in in Europe, if not the world. We still don't have a a crypto incorporated product yet.
Beverly Chandler
So let me just strip everything back a little bit for somebody perhaps who's come to this podcast new to the whole idea of being able to invest in cryptocurrencies within an what we would call an ETP. Gonna ask you, Jeff, what exactly is in these products given what I think eleven launched, is that right? And do they all invest in exactly the same things that they should have the same performance? Or is there a variation? Give me some details here.
Jeffrey Sardinha
Sure, sure. So the products are as simple as they get and and you know some of the some of the DeFi (11:05) guys might get mad at me. But this is essentially like the precious metals products that exist today, right? Operationally, conceptually it's the same. The underlying asset doesn't really matter. It's how the wrapper operates, how the ETF wrapper operates. That's the magic. So the way you need to think about these products it's more, it's an efficient simple access to Bitcoin exposure, right? The funds hold 100% of their assets are invested in Bitcoin. It's invested in the single the single coin, nothing else, no cash, nothing else. ETF performance is tied to that of its underlying asset, net expenses, right? So the key thing I think is exposure, I think that's the keyword. You don't own Bitcoin in these ETFs. You own the ETF. The ETF owns the Bitcoin, right? So that's the thing you need to understand if, if if you want to actually own coins. Then you know, you need a wallet, you need keys. You're not you have neither of those in this circumstance. This is simple access to the exposure you're looking for, which frankly I think is the path of least resistance for many folks wanting exposure but not really wanting to deal with the hurdle that's you know, actual ownership of of the products themselves. So there are there are actually 10 products. We had nine brand new launches and one conversion at scale, all on the same day which was a day or two after the actual approval which was which was interesting. It was interesting to go across the board on all those. Also throughout these products and these launches, we brought in a whole new service provider to the ecosystem, right? Because your traditional service providers like at State Street, we don't actually have the ability to custody the digital asset itself. So there were a few new entities that got brought into the space, three in particular. I I'm lucky enough that I have a couple. I service a couple of these products and each one of them decided to utilise a different underlying digital asset custodian. So I had the I had the the fortune, or misfortune depending on how you, where where you're sitting, to have to connect and integrate with all three at the same time on the same day. Which we did successfully and it's been, it's been fantastic thus far.
Beverly Chandler
And they've never done this before either, presumably.
Jeffrey Sardinha
Correct, correct. They they do not support ETF custody. So this was new for them as well. And and it's funny, you know, being being in the middle of it and dealing with the various sponsors, the various ecosystem members that are going to be touching these products and trying to design and prepare and build, associated with where we think the regulators are gonna land is always interesting. Like it's not our first rodeo going through this, like we have a history of firsts in the ETF industry, we’re we’re an innovative bunch. So I've had the fortune to be there day one for active ETFs. I've had the fortune to be there for semi-transparent active ETFs. So we've, we've done this a number of times where we kind of estimate or or gauge where we think the regulators are going to land so that we can build out the process flows, the the operating model, the technology needed to support these products. In every other circumstance, I think we hit it pretty close on the head as far as where the regulators landed. I think this exercise was stands alone. There were changes occurring from what we anticipated going, like, we were having almost daily changes. You know everybody went into this thinking we're going to in kind these bitcoins, what do we have to do to support the in kind mechanism similar to a precious metals product, right. And that changed. So it was a bit of rushing around, I'd say over the last two months to make sure that everything was ready to go with all the last minute changes to what was going to be allowed versus not allowed, but I think the industry as a whole came together on this and I think everybody for the most part was successful to get their products up and they've performed the way they've expected to thus far. So it's been, it's been really, really interesting.
Beverly Chandler
And Laurent, do you want to bring the European view? Because we, we, Laurent and I watched from a distance. I know you've got views, tell me your views.
Laurent Kssis
Well, as you know, Beverly, I I've been in this market right from the start. So obviously having listed some of the earlier vehicles that came into the market. So we first saw in Europe the Swedish market coming in in 2015. So obviously we're we're not, we're we're quite used to all of this. But certainly what what's happened is it's brought a lot more attention to certainly a few misconceptions. And I think Jeffrey just hit the nail on the head, contrary to public belief, you know you own the ETF, you don't own the the crypto, and that's been a misconception for for many years. I mean, even in the conventional traffic (15:36) ETF, people don't actually realise that they actually own an ETF, they don't own the underlying. It's it's the issuer. We have the same thing in Europe, they're fully collateralized these products, but again you know you're getting the performance that the issuer is holding on your behalf in the product that you're buying. So that's that's very important and this obviously came to life when people realise suddenly, ohh, there is now Bitcoin ETF out there in the US and it's been a, you know, it's been a phenomenal moment. I mean if you look how the 11 issuers in their various ways have been able to market this this event it's it's just really been, you know, crazy. We we're just not not in the kind of scale in Europe to be able to, to, to do this and and if and if you look it's taken you know six, seven years to reach where now a couple of the top issuers on Bitcoin ETF in the US have have reached AUM (16:36) you know in a matter of three to four weeks. It's just been a phenomenal way and it's great to see when Jeffrey speaks about how his business has been conducting that you know, they all got around to it and it's all been working. There's been very little issues. In fact, no one has come out with any any issues, except potentially a couple of days ago where one of the exchange had to close down for a short period of time because the amount of of investment and demand was so high that they couldn't cope with it. But ultimately from the the fund administration and and the transfer agent, all of that business that sits behind has been working very well. In in Europe obviously as I mentioned earlier on, we we need all of these service providers to to help us, right? You know the the crypto ETP market doesn't function on its own like it can maybe more in the US. And as you know, I've worked for various large asset managers, some in the US, and most of them have told me if a Bitcoin ETF comes to life, all we need to do is buy Bitcoin and then we'll have to custody it, and then we'll have a product, right? So quite easy in its design and in in that way that's been the the success story to say that in a matter of three to four weeks we've been enjoying this kind of level of inflow is unprecedented that we've never really had in in Europe. And we can be innovative. We can have, as you know, Beverly, the best product out there. It doesn't mean that people are gonna buy it, right? So it's been great to have this US onslaught of interest because what it's now bringing is a lot of the people who’ve been sitting and waiting on the side and saying, OK, let's see how this goes, now have got no reason to not dive in into this asset class. And there's no better product out there than the US Bitcoin ETFs, as well as the European ETPs that exist in order to do so.
Beverly Chandler
So we're going to obviously hire you to advertise US ETFs, we love that Laurent, but I have to ask, it's been a race to zero in fee compression. How profitable are these products gonna be for these issuers, who you love, but tell me how that's working. So, Jeff, can you talk about that to start with and then we'll get Laurent back on it.
Jeffrey Sardinha
Yeah. So I don't think it is any different than the general ETF story on fees, right. So there's been fee compression non-stop in ETF land. That's one of the benefits of ETF technology, like the way I look at it is the ETF wrapper is technology. It's more efficient, it's less expensive, it's easier to use. So again, we can get rid of the hurdles of custom (19:15). We can get rid of the hurdles of paying 2 and 20 (19:18) like you would back in the day for a hedge fund; that doesn't exist anymore. If you look at some of the data just over the last number of years, like the mutual fund industry alone, the equity mutual fund industry, forget ETFs. Their fees are down 56% over the last 20 years and that's due to ETFs. ETFs continue to get cheaper and cheaper. Theirs are down 45% over the last 15 years. I mean, you can buy the, I think the weighted average expense ratio for a U.S. equity ETF right now is like 16 basis points. You can buy the entire market for less than ten at the end of the day.
Beverly Chandler
But it's not free. I'm just gonna keep going on this free thing. How how long can these businesses run free product? Because it was it was a I think there was a great expression that went up from Eric Balchunas from Bloomberg, the Terror Dome as the rates kept coming down to zero, quite a few are still at zero. Is that really a business, or a charity? Some sort of weird crypto charity?
Jeffrey Sardinha
Yeah. So we we have zeros now. We have fund families that have done anything to try to get out there. We've had them do zero fees for the first six months, zero fees until they reach a certain asset base. I think it really kind of comes down to cannibalisation. And I think that's the way to think about it, if you're if you're not, if you do not have ETFs today, you're getting eaten alive by the market. The ETFs are taking an outsized portion of flows, that outsized portion increases every year. The the gap in the US between active, I should say, mutual fund outflows and ETF inflows over the last two years was like 1 1/2 trillion dollars and then 1.2 trillion dollars, like that's just going to continue. I don't see that slowing, so that's why you see a lot of the top asset managers. You know, forget crypto for a second, just generically for ETFs. Coming into the space, it's either you're going to get cannibalised by the marketplace or you're going to cannibalise yourself. And I think that's the goal is to cannibalise yourself. That point on Is this a business? I tend to agree. Like if if you look at the Bitcoin ETFs themselves, I mean I think you can. If we had to layout the quartiles of fees, I think we have everybody pretty close in terms of what quartile they're in and then you have one that's in their own quartile. And I think that was a distinct choice, so I don't think that's gonna slow. I mean, if if I if I harp back on precious metals and I think about how that marketplace has done has gone over the last 20 years since it started. I mean we've seen half BIP undercuts, fees are king, oftentimes people say fees are king. I partially agree. I think fees are king when they're combined with distribution. I've seen plenty of cheap products stall and not go anywhere because they don't have the necessary distribution. So again, you know, we've seen half basis point undercuts. The other thing that we've seen, which I wouldn't be surprised if we see in the future, and I'm not talking near future I'm talking years out, that we see in in the digital asset crypto ETF spaces, just mini versions of existing spot products. So think of, and I won't use any particular tickers, but think of a couple of these precious metals products that launched mini versions of themselves with reduced expense ratios, right? So now they've created the same product for, you know, long holders where expense ratio do matter versus you know, highly liquid tradable tools where expense ratios really don't matter because you're hopping in and out relatively quickly but you get the liquidity you want with that size, so I think that's naturally where these are going to go eventually. But yeah, I don't see the fee compression slowing at all. I actually see it expanding and its compounding to every part of the business, right? So I’m a service provider for these products so I get squeezed, other service providers get squeezed, it’s compressed all the way down, but I think in the at the end of the day it's what's best for underlying investors and it seems like these firms are still reasonably making money. So I think it's still, I think it's still a business, but it's a cheaper business for sure.
Beverly Chandler
And Laurent would you like to comment, is it spilling over into Europe and is this fee compression in America affecting European business?
Laurent Kssis
Absolutely, Beverly. And you wrote an article not so long ago on fee war relating to Did Black Rock really kill the Bitcoin ETF market when it came in? And and it's it's very valid. Fee compression has always been there in the ETF space because it's a scalable business. But to go as low as as where we are now seeing these fees, Jeffrey hit the nail on the head there, it's benefiting the the investors. I mean they're they've got to love it, right? Because how hard it is to buy cryptocurrencies? And also the risk that you do expose yourself by buying and getting into these wallets when you can just go to your broker dealer and then buy an ETF and hold it for six months at zero basis cost, right? It's gotta be wonderful. And not to mention that actually no one has talked about this but we've enjoyed in the last three weeks 25% performance alone in these products without paying one fee, except probably a broker fee. So you know from from that perspective, we have to admit defeat from from an issuer’s perspective because inevitably this is gonna trickle down into Europe. And and of course, you know, we we've gotta put this in perspective. You know, this this market came about six, seven years ago. There weren't any service providers like there are today, you know, and and the State Street are doing a great job and and others alike. You know, before that when I knocked on the door of State Street it was I I was shown the door out when I mentioned Bitcoin, so you know it it wasn't possible. Now it is because of economies of scales, because like, like Jeffrey mentioned, people want to go into this and they can go in very cheaply. And this is creating obviously this, this, this FOMO (25:10) effect that you have to be in it as as you mentioned, because otherwise you're missing out. And now what we're seeing is a tsunami of banks are now starting to launch their own products, crypto products, because they have to for their own captive audience. So yes, we've definitely enjoyed levels of fees unprecedented in Europe, but that's mostly because the infrastructure wasn't there to start with and we had to manoeuvre around various firms who all wanted to take a piece of the cake at the time and hence why we were charging 2 to 2 ½ percent still today, which is now slightly decreasing to 1% and we see now certain issuers are coming down directly to US levels at around 30 to 35 basis points. Which in my opinion, and as you know Beverly have been doing this for a long time, writing reports, there's no money to be made at this level. We've calculated that in order to make money on a pure Bitcoin product or pure Bitcoin exposure vehicle, you need to to raise $2 billion. Otherwise you might as well not not get by and this is what we're seeing in the US. So one winner takes it all and that's what's happening. I think I'm seeing at the moment AUM with Black Rock of around nine billion, so you know that when they start kicking in they they management fee and TER they will be well in the money. We have suffered in Europe. I mean we all know this that the issuers have have stopped their business and some of them even considering to carry on, some of them have actually delisted products and that's not uncommon in the ETF world, right? If a product doesn't reach its scalability, you know, to a level in which it can make money, we need to pull the plug and we're likely to see the same with the Bitcoin ETFs because not everyone will survive this game. There is a cannibalisation. And the way I look at this, and it and it's very much akin to what we used to see with Rockefeller when, you know, he had to provide the lanterns to have petrol and then all he did is he gave them away free, right? But then they all had to go and buy petrol at the end. OK? And So what we're likely to see in my opinion, is that the big players will gather as much asset as possible and will start raising fees because otherwise there won't be any juice left for anyone to make any money. But ultimately, what does that leave Europe? Because you know, the at the moment we are still enjoying on average around 1 to 1 1/2 percent, 150 basis points of management fee to these products. Now there is a very valid argument that a lot of the institutional investors may switch from Europe into US because they're free and they're enjoying performances of 20 - 25% so why not do this. From a retail perspective I don't see this happening, mostly because people have tax wrappers that they can’t get out of and they are very national vehicles that you need to adhere to. So all of that retail flow will not move very quickly, but there will be, you know pressure to reduce fees. And now that we're seeing this increase of investment we are, you know issuers are in a much better position to go back to these service providers and say guys you need to reduce your fees because otherwise we will go to a US service providers. And I'm sure they're waiting very closely and watching because they can offer a much cheaper service. So we are certainly looking at fee compression and we are certainly going to see reduction in fees and that's going to be benefiting all of the investors that we have at the moment.
Jeffrey Sardinha
So there's a couple of things to I think unpack there. So first off, we actually have at State Street, we actually have our our product team has an annual paper that we put out around our predictions for the year and then and then recapping how we did last year on our predictions. And and one of my predictions, and Laurent kind of gave it away in the beginning, and remember, we did these predictions late last year going into this year; one of them was that we would have Bitcoin ETFs launched in the US, right, which was pretty obvious. But I think the follow up prediction I have is I expect to see the first one shut down as well before the end of the year. To the point that Laurent raised, like if you're not raising sufficient assets, you can only carry products like that for so long in a business where the margins are just so small, which is what the US ETF industry is. So that's one thing. I'd say number two, we've danced around it a little bit regarding the successes of the the US products. So why don't I just give a quick lay of the land with some asset levels. So number one, we're about 46 billion in AUM and again we're like 30-35 business days in. 46 billion of AUM, 26 of that was via the conversion. But that means 20 of it was organically raised from the other nine entrants, which is a huge number, especially when you have nine products. Now if we break that down, I think there are specific tiers within those nine entrants, at least tiers based on asset levels. You know the top two combined have about $15 billion in in their two products. The remaining five is spread out amongst the rest of the seven but that is. I'd be lying if I said going in I expected that level of growth in terms of assets, going in over the first 35 days. Remember these products are not on platforms. Like outside of a handful of self-directed brokerage platforms, they're not on your Merrills, they’re not on your Morgans. And and I mean Vanguard essentially the other day came out and said and they won't be on our platform which you know that kind of goes with their ethos. Like I can't buy a triple leverage Tesla ETF on their platform, either. So that's common, I would have expected that. So asset levels have grown beyond what I expected, but I think even beyond that, the volume, the notional traded volumes, these are looking like adult ETFs. These do not look like new launches. These look like products that have been around for a long period of time and and are just trading tools. Like earlier this week we had one of the funds eclipse a billion dollar notional trading volume on one day, right. And to follow that up yesterday they decided to do three billion in notional trading volume in one day. So it it's it's it's growth, we're breaking records daily. Like yesterday was $7 billion in notional trading value across the Bitcoin ETFs which is, that those are big numbers. So when I say it's been successful, I mean the numbers back it up.
Beverly Chandler
That's extraordinary. And thank you so much for giving us the detail there at the end. I'm going to have to, we could talk about this probably for another half hour, but we do like to try and keep these to half an hour and we've gone over a little bit, but that was really valuable and interesting data. It's important to get the data in there as well. I'm going to say thank you to my guests. So Jeffrey Sardinha of State Street and Laurent Kssis of CEC Capital. And thank you to you for listening and remember to subscribe and leave a review and feel free to contact us at podcast@chandlerpublishing.com. This has been an Off the Record podcast from ETF Express brought to you in partnership with Truss Edge.
Outro
Off the Record is brought to you by ETF Express in partnership with Truss Edge, providers of front, middle and back office software and services to ETF issuers. Production by Imogen Rostron and Lisa Hines and music by Otto Balfour. Thank you to our guests on this episode of Off the Record from ETF Express and to you for listening. We look forward to you joining us next time.