Second Journeys

Second journeys, the process of adding to your family, is exciting. There is nothing better than giving your child a sibling to love. In this episode, Frank discusses second journeys in detail. He shares information about managing expectations, journey timelines, and expresses the importance of showing second-time Intended Parents the same quality care as their first journey.

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 Frank 00:02 
Welcome to Surrogacy Talk with me, your fabulous host and family building expert, Frank Golden. I'll be talking about surrogacy, IVF, and making babies. Hello, everyone. I am joined by Erika Daybook. Good morning, Erika.
 
Erika 00:19 
Good morning, Frank.
 
Frank 00:20 
So thank you, everyone, for tuning in today. Our topic today we are going to discuss for intended parents who wish to pursue a second journey through surrogacy. And Erika has a bunch of fabulous questions because I've been through multiple journeys myself, so hopefully I can provide some insight. And I think there's some really good material here for everyone.
 
Erika 00:42 
I agree. So let's first discuss when intended parents maybe want to start thinking about this or how they can come to the decision that they're ready to start thinking about a second journey.
 
Frank 00:57 
So that's a really great question. And there are there's a few different factors. So the first factor, which is something that intended parents can't really change, is the requirements with the fertility clinic. So if they plan on using the same surrogate as they had during their first journey, typically the reproductive endocrinologist will require that the surrogate be at least 12 months post-delivery so that her body has had time to recover.
 
Frank 01:25 
A lot of doctors actually think you should have even more time to recover. So 12 months is kind of the minimum. If that ends up being the case, then we'll start re onboarding that candidate. Usually around the six or seven month marker to collect all of her most recent records and then, you know, all of her redo the psychological evaluation, all of that in preparation of of an embryo transfer.
 
Frank 01:49 
So there those are kind of like the hard line requirements medically speaking. But then intended parents also have a few other things to consider. You know, what is the age difference that they would like their children to be? So you know, some intended parents. Right. Right out of the gate, they try for twins because they want to exactly the same age.
 
Frank 02:12 
And they figure, well, you know, how hard can it be if I never raised a singleton, how am I going to know that twins was harder? So I'll just raise both at the same time and get it out of the way. Okay. That's one train of thought. The other train of thought is go through one first.
 
Frank 02:29 
Make sure you can do the job right. Make sure that you have what it takes to be a parent and that you could learn everything first.
 
Erika 02:36 
Yeah.
 
Frank 02:36 
You have like that experimental phase of parenting where it's like, okay. Um, and then maybe wait a couple of years so that you have at least the first one out of diapers, and then you have a helping hand for the newborn. So that's kind of in talking with many intended parents and just parents in general who have had multiple children.
 
Frank 02:56 
I've always been told that kind of like that three or four year age difference is good because then you do have one that's like about to start kindergarten who can be very helpful around the house. And then you've got, you know, a newborn or toddler and they can kind of help out with that, so.
 
Erika 03:12 
I also think that so my parents waited about five years and they loved it because my sister was literally a little helper. She she was at the point where she remembers me being born. So that meant a lot to her. And she was instantly like this almost additional little mommy figure. And she wanted to unfortunately play house with me as the baby doll and didn't always work out.
 
Erika 03:32 
But she she loved it. And it was a memory. And we were still very, very close. But also in a surrogacy journey when you're child and you can attest to this for sure, going through a journey and with a very young child that you're still adjusting to is a lot to juggle and a job probably.
 
Frank 03:49 
It, it is.
 
Erika 03:50 
And a relationship.
 
Frank 03:50 
It is it's it's not like just having a child naturally you're going to having to do it through surrogacy in this in this instance. And so a surrogacy journey has its own set of unique circumstances and stress factors, especially if you aren't fortunate enough to be able to have the same surrogate on your journey. And you have to be completely, you know, re matched with a whole new surrogate.
 
Frank 04:14 
Now you are bringing in a different emotional aspect because you have to learn this whole new person and build rapport with an entirely new person and her family. And so that's really time consuming and it's really stressful and just mentally challenging. And then to your point, if you if you have a full time career and then you've already you already have a child.
 
Frank 04:34 
And it's just a lot it's a lot for intended parents to go through.
 
Erika 04:37 
Right. And so we're not saying like not to have a kid right away that's totally on you. It's just something to consider because I think the excitement of a first journey is just so overwhelming. And then that added pressure of actually having another child. It's got it. And you can talk about that. That had to have changed your second journey compared to your first or you just having Sophia in the mix was probably an entirely different experience.
 
Frank 05:00 
It really does. You know, we initially wanted a two year age gap, so we tried a little sooner. And, you know, as those out there who have listened to other podcasts, no, it didn't didn't work. The second journey. But now, looking back at everything, I'm kind of glad that we have the four year, almost five year age gap because Sophia is completely self sufficient and she's just amazing.
 
Frank 05:23 
She starts kindergarten this fall and she is just such a great helper, and she'll follow Silas around the house because he's he's two now, so he's up and walking and going all over the place. So he's two and she'll be six in October. And so, um, she's just phenomenal. She follows him around. If he starts doing something, maybe he shouldn't, like climbing on the back of the couch, walking on the back of the couch, which is scary.
 
Frank 05:45 
She'll say, Oh, no, Silas, get down. And she'll come find Adam or I. She's just really it's great. It's great having that age gap, so.
 
Erika 05:53 
Right. And I've met Sophia many times, and I know how much she appreciates being a big sister. So she's getting this, like, really great experience of watching her little brother grow, which is always cool. I'm a little sister, so I missed out on that.
 
Frank 06:06 
And I think similar to your situation, she, um. You know, I think she'll remember uh.
 
Erika 06:11 
Oh, yeah.
 
Frank 06:11 
When we brought him home from the hospital that day because she was already three and a half, so she'll. She's going to have those memories. So, you know, that's amazing. We're really excited for her.
 
Erika 06:22 
Definitely. After this advice intended parents still feel like, hey, you know what? I do want that one and a half to your age difference. Which, again, is totally fine. When should they start thinking about this? Should they start their second journey while they're still completing their first journey? So if they're not using the same surrogate or even if they are, when should they really start thinking about this?
 
Erika 06:47 
If they wanted their child immediately.
 
Frank 06:49 
That's a great question. So if you are in the midst of your first journey and your surrogate is already in her third trimester, so she's you know, she's very close to giving birth. And you know that, you know, currently it can take anywhere from nine to 12 months to find the right surrogate, especially if you're not going to be able to utilize your your same surrogate for your next journey.
 
Frank 07:12 
You may want to start that that second journey sometime in that third trimester to start the search if if that's your plan to have an immediate journey following or, you know, obviously have a very frank discussion with your current surrogate about, you know, in 12 months post-delivery after she's recovered. If the delivery goes well and you know where she kind of you know what she's thinking about maybe a second journey and be open minded because after delivery things can change for her she may change her mind so I wouldn't you know bank everything on that but have that open and honest dialog so it's really important for for you as an intended parent and as
 
Frank 07:51 
a couple to to have that discussion with your significant other and then you know bring this the surrogacy agency in to the conversation to find out about potential surrogate match times. Again, if you can't utilize your same surrogate, talk to your reproductive endocrinologist to find out what they're kind of restrictions and limitations are in terms of when they would want you to to start another journey because some R.E.s want you to have at least a year they want they do want you to go home with with your first baby and have that period of of, you know, raising your first.
 
Frank 08:24 
So some some clinics impose limitations too. So I would say bring everyone into the mix, have that open and honest dialog and then take a partner with your agency and come up with a really good timeline that fits not, not only your your expectations and goals, but those of of the medical professionals too, what they're what they're telling you.
 
Erika 08:43 
Definitely. And I think also if a set of intended parents don't have embryos left, but they want to go through a second journey, then move on that just as fast, you know, either I know Frank and Adam used the same egg donor and she was courteous enough to reach out and let you know that she's ready to start the second half of her family and if you wanted eggs, you should come get them.
 
Erika 09:11 
They're up they're up for grabs.
 
Frank 09:12 
Yeah. I mean, she was she was amazing. So, you know, as a lot of people know, we didn't have a bunch of surplus embryos at the end of our first journey. And then the two that we had left didn't work out. And we kind of looped her in and you're right. She was courteous and generous enough to reach out and say, you know, I'm beginning my second journey, you know, so to speak, to to become a parent the second time because she or she had already had a daughter.
 
Frank 09:38 
And this is what my husband and I are thinking. So if you would like me to undergo a second retrieval, now would be the time. And Adam and I, we weren't really even thinking about it at the time. We were just kind of on a hiatus, just kind of, you know, letting things settle down. And then she reached out and we were like, okay, great, let's let's get the ball rolling.
 
Frank 09:54 
So you're right. If you're a couple out there who you've gone through your first journey and maybe you don't have any embryos left or you've got a very small supply of embryos left, and you're considering you know, a second egg retrieval, more embryos, then that adds an additional factor of time in your timeline. So you need to to then step back and then reevaluate that situation as well.
 
Frank 10:17 
So you have to take that into consideration if if that ends up being your circumstance, too.
 
Erika 10:22 
Exactly. So let's talk a little bit about expectations. Intended parents, we know they have overall in general have great experiences with surrogacy, they have a healthy baby, and it's it's wonderful. Bringing those same expectations into a second journey, though. It's kind of challenging because every pregnancy is different, every surrogate's different. If you choose to go to a different agency, it's going to be a different experience.
 
Erika 10:55 
So maybe you want to talk about your personal experience with the different expectations going in. I mean, you've been through I want to say like two and a half journeys really. You know, unfortunately, your second journey wasn't successful and then you were able to go on a third journey and now you've Silas. So I would imagine every single one was different than the last.
 
Erika 11:16 
And maybe you could just go through that.
 
Frank 11:18 
It is. And this is a really great topic because we often receive inquiries from intended parents who are returning to us because they would like to embark on a second journey or intended parents coming to us from a completely different agency. And one of the things I always let everyone know during the consultation, the initial consultation, is that it's great to know all the steps of the surrogacy process.
 
Frank 11:41 
That's great. You have it under your belt. You know that we do. You know, the onboarding, the matching, the screening, the legal, the training, like, you know, everything, all the big stuff, you know them. But you really have to take everything that you knew about your previous surrogate. If you are someone who needed to be re matched with a new surrogate, you really have to wipe the slate clean because oftentimes intended parents will you know, rejoin the process for their second journey and they are holding that second surrogate to the same expectations as the first one or I should say the expectations are great because we want really great surrogates.
 
Frank 12:15 
But you can't compare apples to apples because to your point, everyone is different, different personalities. Different backgrounds, different home life. So you really kind of have to, you know, in your mind, wipe the slate clean and say, okay, this is a completely different person. I can't compare them to surrogate A because this is surrogate B and she's completely different as an individual and as a family person and as a mother.
 
Erika 12:39 
So it's like meeting someone new and starting a new long term relationship. Comparing them to your old partner is just tragic. It's a great way to cause a bad relationship.
 
Frank 12:50 
Yes.
 
Erika 12:51 
You're with the new person for whatever reason it is. It's was meant to be at the time. And the same thing with Surrogate. It's a new relationship. They're going to be just as qualified.
 
Erika 13:00 
But like you said, just different people you know.
 
Frank 13:03 
And what we what we also come across as intended parents that they'll ask, well, can our previous surrogate have a conversation with our new surrogate just to kind of like filter in and maybe educate her a little bit about, you know, who we are as a couple. And then they also appreciate the perspective of their previous surrogate on this new candidate.
 
Frank 13:25 
They just like to kind of pick her brain and find out, you know, what do you think kind of a thing. And I'm really indifferent I don't say, oh, that's a bad idea. That's a great idea. I think it if you had that much faith and confidence and you built up such a great relationship with your first surrogate that you would go to her for advice on your second match.
 
Frank 13:42 
That's great. But to your point previously, you really do have to know and have the expectation that it's a completely different person. You're not going to find an identical twin of of your previous surrogate. And so you have to know that going into it.
 
Erika 13:56 
Exactly. And that the pregnancy might be different, you know, not that you should expect complications, but if the first one went great and the second one isn't as smooth, that's just the way it works sometimes.
 
Frank 14:06 
That's a great point as well. Every pregnancy is different you know, your first journey, maybe nothing went wrong, which is great. We want that to be the scenario. But maybe on your second journey, the surrogate was, you know, maybe she had a more intense, you know, pregnancy sickness in the beginning or she was just more lethargic and tired and she just reacted to the medication differently or whatever, you know, things like that can happen.
 
Frank 14:30 
It's not you know, you shouldn't take it personally. You shouldn't, you know, think that, oh, your your second journey is going horribly wrong because everything wasn't perfect to a T like the first one. It's just a surrogacy journey is unpredictable. But a pregnancy in and of itself is just can be completely different from even person to person or or even, you know, we talk with surrogates who experienced surrogates who have had two or three of their own children.
 
Frank 14:54 
And then they're on their second journey and they're like, wow, this pregnancy is completely different from anything I've experienced. So even with the same person, a pregnancy can vary greatly.
 
Erika 15:05 
Totally. Completely. So that's important for intended parents to know that things are just different journey to journey and also to keep in mind, like financially, what's the range you give intended parents? How much? Let's do a recap.
 
Frank 15:18 
So intended parents going through their first journey, right? Like creating embryos from scratch. You know, the egg retrieval part, the IVF, the legal, the surrogate everything now we're estimating is on average anywhere from $140,000 to $150,000 just because of all of the increased base compensation for surrogates. Clinical fees are going up. Just that's basically what we're seeing.
 
Erika 15:40 
The industry is changing. Oh, totally.
 
Frank 15:42 
If you already have embryos created on ice ready to go, you're not re-paying all of those clinical medical fees. So then intended parents usually spend about $100,000. Because you still have surrogate base compensation. You're funding your escrow with an additional buffer, your agency fee again, you still have to write legal contracts. So there's still a lot of money that goes into it.
 
Frank 16:04 
But again, it's not the full fee all over again.
 
Erika 16:07 
So it would be it's like an assumption that your second journey may cost less. But again, going in with the expectation you might be disappointed, you may come across issues higher travel expenses, whatever may vary from your first journey to your second journey, that it may end up being the same. Maybe the second journey costs a little bit more.
 
Erika 16:26 
I mean, don't go in there assuming it's going to be last because half the job has been done.
 
Frank 16:30 
You know, that is a really great point.
 
Erika 16:32 
So be financially prepared.
 
Frank 16:34 
Be prepared. And also know that if you had first journey, first embryo transfer success during your first journey, that's great. That's what we want to see. But that's not always the case. So then on your second journey, if the embryo transfer isn't a success the first time and you have to do a subsequent transfer to your point, that causes an increase in costs.
 
Frank 16:56 
So your surrogate has to travel to the clinic again, if there's lost wages, the medication fees, so things can add up. So don't always think that just because it worked perfectly well the first time it's going to work that way the second time, that that isn't always the case. We hope it is, knock on wood. But but you have to be cognizant of the fact and and have a very realistic expectation for your second journey.
 
Erika 17:17 
Right.
 
Erika 17:17 
Just be like financially ready to put in just as much money, if not more. So we don't want anyone to come into a journey and worry about, you know, their financial situation. We want them to worry about having a healthy baby and enjoying the process. So this has all been super informative. Let's go into how Golden Surrogacy, how we handle a second journey and have we had intended parents join us for a second journey or thinking about second journeys and kind of how does gold an approach, a second journey with an attendant parent?
 
Frank 17:48 
Yeah, that's a great question. So when we, you know, founded the agency initially I was thinking, you know, repeat business would be, you know, very minimal because people would go through the process, have their baby and be done. And it's really expensive. Anyway, what we're finding though is like 20% to 30% of our clients now are coming back because and I think, you know, a large portion of that has to do with the fact that single embryo transfers are the gold standard now because we want to minimize the risk of all the complications that can occur with a twin gestation.
 
Frank 18:22 
And it's just the best way to go, especially if you're utilizing genetically tested embryos. Why, you know, put your surrogate through that and potentially have catastrophic outcomes for your baby. Right, or babies. So single embryo transfers definitely on the rise and so everyone starts their journey knowing that they're going to, you know, hopefully have one healthy baby.
 
Frank 18:42 
And then they already start thinking about journey number two. So we're seeing a lot of intended parents come back to start their second journeys. And that's really exciting. If they're able to use the same surrogate we'll go ahead and provide a discount off of our agency fee. So we usually take a look at what it costs us to recruit a surrogate and we'll deduct that from the fee.
 
Frank 19:04 
I don't want to give any numbers on this podcast right now because the fee may be different when you are listening to the podcast then from when it is right now.
 
Erika 19:10 
Exactly.
 
Frank 19:11 
So but definitely inquire if you're a second time intended parent and you're utilizing your same surrogate, there is a discount available for you because we don't have to go out and find her. We've already found her the first time.
 
Erika 19:22 
That's a huge part, and we know from experience finding qualified, you know, candidates to be surrogates is a challenge. So that's good to know. There's a slight discount for that.
 
Frank 19:36 
Yep, there certainly is. And we welcome you back to our agency. And then what you can expect is the same great service that you had on your first journey you know, we don't look at you is, oh, you know, we've got this in the bag. You've already been through us before and we just kind of put you on the backburner, not the case.
 
Frank 19:52 
We treat everyone the same with great service. You're going to have a great experience even on your second journey, because we know that we get the honor of helping you complete your family, not only do we have the honor of helping you start your family, but now we get to help you. It comes full circle. We get to help you complete your family.
 
Frank 20:09 
So it's an honor and a privilege to be able to manage those journeys again. We welcome you back to our agency. If you had a great experience, which we know you did. Because I'm in charge. So that's really kind of how we handle it. We still go through we would request all of the medical records from your surrogates, most recent delivery with your journey.
 
Frank 20:28 
We still have to go through all of that same vetting process, make sure nothing has changed in her health history.
 
Erika 20:33 
She has to be approved again at the IVF clinics. I mean, it is another process.
 
Frank 20:38 
Exactly. It's not a automatic for sure thing. We still want to make sure that she is medically sound and able to move forward because again, we want you to have the best possible chance for success. And we're looking out for her health too, you know, is this a candidate that should be pregnant again and go through an entirely, you know, second delivery for you because she's already had her own children.
 
Frank 20:58 
And one for you already. And now this is yet again another delivery. So we just want to make sure that everyone is healthy and able to go through the process, and be the most successful as possible.
 
Erika 21:08 
And there have been surrogates, I know in my experience here that have really wanted to go through another journey with our agency. But unfortunately, just they've had one too many pregnancies probably would be over four or the age her age, you know, has increased. And now it's outside of our our quality requirements. So that does happen, unfortunately.
 
Frank 21:28 
But it does. And we thank them for wanting to come back.
 
Erika 21:32 
It's always sad letting them down.
 
Frank 21:35 
It is. But again, we you know, we want to do what's right by all parties. So yep, that's kind of how Golden, you know, handles it. You know, we welcome them back.
 
Erika 21:42 
Still walk them through everything
 
Erika 21:42 
as if they don't know you just, again, treat them like somebody who hasn't been through a journey, which is really reassuring. I'm sure maybe even a little annoying because they're like I know this Frank. You're like, well, I'm just going to tell you again because.
 
Frank 21:55 
It's funny you should mention that because we have second time surrogates through our program all the time, and we still do like the preparatory match call leading up to a match, what to expect going into the clinic. And they're like, you know, I don't need to do that. I've done it before. I know you know, they're kind of like, you know, got their shoulders up.
 
Frank 22:12 
Like, I know what I'm doing. I got this, and we're like, We know. But still, it's our job. We just want to make sure that you're supported and you have all of the most recent, you know, relevant facts for for this journey. And so that's kind of funny. But our professional they're like our professional surrogates. They know what's going on.
 
Frank 22:30 
But we still do everything to make them feel supported and educated, so.
 
Erika 22:34 
I guess Golden just provides that extra support no matter what. So if you sign with us, deal with it.
 
Frank 22:39 
Absolutely.
 
Erika 22:41 
So any extra advice Frank, for, you know, being not only an agency owner, I mean, you have tons, tons of literally tons of experience on this topic. I mean, you're an agency owner that's helping people through their second journey of helping surrogates through their second journeys. And then you've been through multiple journeys on your own, resulting in two beautiful children.
 
Erika 22:58 
Silas just turned two in July. So that's pretty cool. So any additional advice or suggestions for managing your emotions or let's just pick your brain for a minute.
 
Frank 23:11 
Yeah. I mean I would just say overall approach your second journey with a very you know, obviously be optimistic and be excited. You're you're starting the second journey. You're you're completing your family, but just be realistic about your own expectations. Internally. Know that you may or may not have the same surrogate. It might be different emotionally, a completely different personality to to manage and, you know, become accustomed to the geographics may change on your first journey.
 
Frank 23:41 
You might have had someone local and then on your second journey, you might have someone a couple of states away. So those things can also change so just approach things with, you know, a cautiously optimistic approach, I guess you could say, and know that factors, you know, may or may not have changed and and have that, you know, just be cognizant of all of those facts.
 
Frank 24:02 
And I think as long as you go into your second journey knowing all the different variables and things that that could very well have changed, I think you're not approaching it in such a way that you're setting yourself up for failure internally and mentally. So, um, and if you need advice that's what I'm here for, even if you're not a client of mine, but you're out there and you've heard this podcast, give me a call.
 
Frank 24:23 
You're right, Erika. I've been through, you know, a whole lot of different stuff with surrogacy you know, for my own journeys. And so I've got that insight. If you need advice, how to approach a situation. Um.
 
Erika 24:34 
You've had some really challenging I mean, challenging journeys, failed transfers. You had a very hard time conceiving Silas. And I think that the failures in life are the challenges in life is what teaches you the most. You really get what it's like to be the father of two children so the end, it was great. So you can always appreciate that joy that the parents feel, but also the struggles that might you might go through or the excitement of going through a second journey.
 
Erika 24:59 
I mean, I think that's awesome. I value the insight just because of literally all the things that you've been through throughout your journeys. You know, there's other podcasts about that. Feel free to listen. But Frank is always very candid about sharing his personal experience about, again, all the topics we discussed.
 
Frank 25:18 
And I'm thankful for it. You know, in the in the moment, I definitely wasn't thankful for it. But now, you know, as an agency owner, I have all of that perspective. And I'm actually and that's why I'm thankful for it, because when someone comes to me who says they've been through years of struggle and you know, I get it, I understand how sad it can be for a person.
 
Frank 25:38 
So, um.
 
Erika 25:39 
You can actually, say, I understand and mean it. Which is valuable.
 
Frank 25:44 
Um, but yeah, you know, on a positive note, just approach your second journey again. Like I said, with, with a, you know, positive vibes, be cautiously optimistic. Know what, what can change for your second journey. And just to have those expectations, um, to be more realistic, I guess you could say, um, but when you're ready, we are here for you even if you weren't an intended parent on your first journey through golden surrogacy, if you didn't have a great experience with your last journey, whatever agency you were at or you know, a lot of intended parents, they managed their own first journey, and they were it was really hectic for them.
 
Frank 26:18 
We've got intended parents that were like, you know, it all ended well. We ended up with a baby, but it was just way too stressful. For the second journey. We want you to manage it for us. Come to Golden. We will take care of you. We will be more than happy to help you complete your family. We're here for you.
 
Erika 26:34 
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that insight, Frank. I hope that everyone got something awesome from this and you're ready to start your second journey. Congratulations. That's a huge step.
 
Frank 26:42 
Absolutely. So thank you, everyone out there for listening can follow us on our Facebook, Instagram, Twitter @GoldenSurrogacy, except Instagram. It's @Golden_Surrogacy.
 
Erika 26:53 
Underscore. Yeah you go, yup.
 
Frank 26:54 
Thank you, everyone. And until next time, this is Frank Golden reminding you that Everyone Deserves a Family.