Choosing a Last Name: I Now Pronounce You Parents

Aside from the regular challenges of parenthood, gay parents are required to make a choice regarding the use of their last names. In this episode, Frank discusses last names and how they factor into same-sex relationships. Frank invites his husband, Adam and his Executive Assistant, Juan to share their personal perspectives as gay men. They talk about the current political climate, discuss potential options for gay parents, and offer advice on managing this conversation.

Transcript

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Frank 00:02
Welcome to Surrogacy Talk with me, your fabulous host and family building expert, Frank Golden. I'll be talking about surrogacy, IVF and making babies. Hello, everyone, and welcome to our new segment. It's been a little while. We are in the studio today with always as our fabulous Erika Daybook in the studio.

Erika 00:26
Hello, everyone.

Frank 00:28
Good morning. And we also have my husband, Adam Golden, in the studio.

Adam 00:33
Good morning, everybody.

Frank 00:34
So today we have an important topic, and it's something that I always get asked by intended parents. And it is gay parents choosing last names um, very relevant topic. Um, for certainly myself and then many intended parents that come through our program. So, Erika, if you want to kind of kick off the, the questions regarding this topic.

Erika 00:57
Sure. And so I know this is also relevant for straight couples, especially in today's day of feminism, which is awesome. A lot of women don't want to change their last names. They want to hyphenate or they want their children to have their last name. So I'm really excited to cover this topic and especially relevant with gay marriage for gay couples.

Erika 01:22
Now that marriage is legal, it's now it's no longer like a dream or it's a realistic goal. And a lot of people are jumping on the chance to get married and having children now with that is a whole new thing. So talk a little bit about that, how the perspective may have changed or how this is now becoming a hot issue right, and I,

Frank 01:41
so that's a good question. And I think that before gay marriage, gay couples didn't I don't think they considered having to change their last names because there wasn't a legal document that, you know, solidified their relationship in a marriage, quote, unquote. So I just I don't think it was something that was, you know, even thought of. And now that we have gay marriage, we also have couples thinking about starting families, getting married, starting families.

Frank 02:11
What should we name our children? Which last name should they have? So I think it has catapulted the issue and made it something that everyone is thinking about now.

Erika 02:21
So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I know that in your personal life, you're obviously married and you took on your husband's last name. And can you tell us a little bit about that decision going from a gay man in your youth who probably didn't think you were going to be able to get married to being married, making that decision, and then having children.

Frank 02:44
Right. So we're we're lucky to live in Illinois. And back then, it was a civil union. And we did research and I figured out that in Illinois, as long as I presented the the civil union certificate to the Social Security Administration, I could get a new Social Security card with a new last name and I could get my ID changed.

Frank 03:04
So it was an easy process, and I'm sure it's not that easy and or it wasn't that easy in other states before, but it was something that that Adam and I discussed for a while at length. I mean, what were your thoughts initially, Adam? I know Adam's got a little bit of a different perspective. Maybe you want to talk about kind of like your mom's background.

Frank 03:23
Adam's mom never changed her last name. So what was your, you know, thoughts on that?

Adam 03:28
So we discussed Frank and I discussed keeping our individual last names possibly hyphenated, but it was really came down to how we felt about our names. We see some people keep their own like my mom kept her maiden name, but her children took my dad's last name. But a lot of gay couples also hyphenate, and then the kids get both parents names.

Adam 03:50
It's a tough decision to make, especially tough because you don't want to feel like someone one over the other person.

Frank 03:58
Right.

Adam 03:59
So, you know, if the name means something to both people.

Erika 04:02
That's difficult. You know, I can.

Adam 04:03
Have the name is the name means something to both people. It's difficult, hyphenate is sort of weird.

Erika 04:09
Some names. It works if you get lucky, you know, and you had a short last name. Yeah, I think sometimes it's out of the question.

Frank 04:15
So just for full disclosure, my original or maiden last name was Testa. And I, um, I wasn't, you know, stuck on my last name. I didn't have this overwhelming feeling that I needed to keep it for some reason. I think a lot of that has to do with just my father and my my upbringing. And that's a whole other podcast that we can have.

Erika 04:38
Or three.

Frank 04:39
But um, and then the other piece of it was is that I really liked the last name Golden.

Erika 04:44
Who wouldn't, it's really nice last name really to have.

Frank 04:49
And then Adam and I, we did discuss hyphenated, you know, Testa-Golden, Golden-Testa. We really, we didn't know if we really liked that. I didn't like having to hyphenate last name. And then I just know like on forms and stuff, like the last name just would have been super long. Um, we were already shortly after we had our civil union, we were already discussing having children.

Frank 05:13
So that was also something else that weighed in our minds. Well, if I change my name now, then when we have kids will only have one family name because I was concerned with, you know, this is before gay marriage. So, and even right now with gay marriage, there's still many states, especially in the Deep South, where LGBTQ rights are still trying to be, you know, are still legislators still trying to infringe upon our rights.

Frank 05:36
And so, um, we didn't take anything for granted. We knew we could have a civil union, but we were by no means invincible to, to hatred. And we still aren't. But my feelings were if we're going to have children and they could potentially face some sort of adversity in school with their peers because they've got two dads, why would we want to have them with a hyphenated last name that then made them, you know, or gave them some other issue to have adversity over?

Frank 06:07
Um, so I just wanted that one unified last name. That was my thoughts on it. And what were, was that basically what you were thinking too Adam.

Adam 06:15
I think you're for the kids, it's easier for everyone has one last name. It's weird if one parent has one name and the other parent has another, especially in a gay relationship, let's say, and we each have a child that's related to us. It just seems easier.

Erika 06:28
I think it complicates things for kids. And then, you know, when you see a hyphenated name, let's say, or you know, it's the parents have different last names, you start to wonder, okay, why And then you see a gay parent and it gives you, oh, that's why you've already put a prejudgment on to a child when now it's just Sophia Golden.

Erika 06:44
They get to know her and then they get to know her family. And you hope that everyone accepts it regardless, but it just makes it a lot easier for a child. And I and I, I got that in my situation like my last name is Daybook. So my family we're the only grandchildren, like the only like youth. We have to carry on the name.

Erika 07:02
We're both girls. And then after us, our name dies and we feel very connected to our last name. So that's something that even as a straight, you know, cisgendered woman, I'm concerned about, I don't know, preserving any man that's going to take on my last name because of that, you know, gender role and.

Adam 07:23
Right. And I don't necessarily agree with I don't think when you get married, I don't think the other person should have to take your last name. Right. So but it does put you in a pickle of what do you name your kids then.

Erika 07:33
Right?

Adam 07:34
Uh, one of our kids is a girl. And I would hope that she would keep our name when she gets married. But yeah, the gender, the normal stereotypes is she takes on her husband's name.

Erika 07:45
Right?

Adam 07:46
Unless the husband's name sucks

Erika 07:47
Again, this world's is changing. So that's why this is like a really relevant topic. And in my situation, I have no idea right now, my current boyfriend really likes his last name, too, because it is named after this big mountain in Israel, and that means a lot to him. So the names together would be ridiculous. And if we were to continue on, it would be very challenging for us to decide what to do.

Erika 08:11
You know.

Frank 08:12
It's certainly a it's it's certainly an issue that has many different pieces to it. So for for gay couples and Adam, you kind of alluded to it earlier that you know, our son Silas has the last name Golden, just just as Sophia does. But if Sophia and Silas follow the societal norms they Silas could go on to to essentially reproduce and create a whole generation of Goldens that never shared the original golden bloodline.

Erika 08:42
That's very interesting.

Frank 08:44
And that could, um, you know, and that. That could be something that actually helps break down those societal quote unquote, norms that we've had for all of these different years. And and then I know, on the other hand, Adam's hoping that Sophia, you know, keeps her last name and doesn't follow those societal norms so that the Golden last name has the the Golden DNA behind it, I guess you could say.

Erika 09:08
That's right.

Frank 09:09
But but for everyone out there listening what Adam and I did in terms of combining our last names is not by any means the the right thing to do. Um, it's just what we chose to do. And I think everyone needs to do what they feel is best for them and their situation. So we're actually going to, um, to thank you, Adam, for being in the studio today.

Frank 09:31
We're actually going to bring in some of our other staff.

Erika 09:35
They don't quite know it yet, but we offer a sneak attack. Um, Juan is a, a young gay man. He is in a monogamous relationship long term with a wonderful guy named Chris. We got the pleasure of meeting him a few times. Great guy. Um, he and Chris are not married. They maybe, hopefully, one day will be. I don't know if they discuss this yet.

Erika 09:58
I don't know. You know, what his perspective is going to be, having not made this decision yet. You know.

Frank 10:04
So I'm interested to find out what he says.

Erika 10:07
Let's go get him. Adam. Thank you. So I think Juan is walking into the room. Hello, Juan.

Frank 10:16
Hello?

Erika 10:18
Come on. Don't be afraid. Yeah. Shut the door.

Frank 10:22
Shut the door. Come in, sit down. We just have some questions for you.

Erika 10:27
It's a sneak attack. Put your headset on take it away, Frank.

Frank 10:33
Yeah. So we are, um, this podcast segment, we're talking about gay parents choosing the last names for their children and for themselves, really. Um, so we just wanted to find out, you know, we already discussed what Adam and I, our perspective was on that and how we made that decision. So now we would like your take because you are in a monogamous relationship with someone, right?

Frank 10:55
But you're not married yet. And so we're just trying to find out where your thoughts would be on this topic.

Juan 11:01
Um, yeah, sure.

Frank 11:02
Sorry if we surprise you, but.

Juan 11:05
It's okay.

Erika 11:05
Poor Juan.

Juan 11:06
Frank's been trying to get me married since I started, everyday, are going to get married, so hopefully he doesn't listen to this podcast. Um, yeah, that's, that's a great question. Started when I started working here. That's something that actually first came to mind because I would like to use one day be able to complete my own journey. And that's, that's a question that comes to mind regardless who I marry in the long run, you know, I would want to carry on my legacy.

Juan 11:33
I am the first born male and am the only male in my family. So it's me and my sister. And I would I would like to keep my name. We actually had this issue with our dog. So we have Bella, we got Bella at two months. She's a cockapoo and she's crazy. But when we go to the the vet or when we go get her groomed it's confusing because he has still he has enlisted under her last name, which is his last name, which is Ward.

Juan 11:57
And my last name is Ruiz. So PetSmart it's under Ward Ruiz and at the vet is under Ruiz Ward.

Frank 12:05
That's fascinating though that you are already really facing the issue with a pet. I consider that. That's awesome.

Erika 12:15
Now, one also has a cat. The cats under your last name. I'm assuming. Okay.

Frank 12:21
Because it was the cat pre Chris?

Juan 12:23
Yes.

Juan 12:24
The cat was very much pre Chris.

Frank 12:26
Now what about Dorian?

Juan 12:29
Dorian has my last name.

Erika 12:31
Dorian, is Juan's office fish.

Juan 12:34
That I.

Erika 12:34
Betta fish.

Juan 12:35
That I completely surprised Frank with. Frank is the most neat, organized person you'll ever meet. And I came back from break one day with this huge tank.

Erika 12:44
He handled it really well.

Frank 12:45
Give him an inch. He takes a mile. Next thing you know, we're going to have seahorses in that thing.

Juan 12:50
Don't try me, I love seahorses.

Erika 12:51
Frank handled the fish really, really well.

Juan 12:52
Yeah, Frank is a really great boss. And he didn't say anything.

Erika 12:55
There was a no pet policy. Come on.

Erika 12:58
I mean, you pushed the limit.

Juan 12:59
He told me to make myself comfortable, so I went for it. But Dorian does have it does have my last name at PetSmart. But yeah, that's that's a great question. And it's it's a hard one. I don't know how it, you know, with a pet, we always kind of are you I don't like the rhyme or the wording of Ward Ruiz or Ruiz Ward.

Juan 13:17
So I think it would be much easier if we had just one last name, especially when the kid eventually goes off to college or the kid starts baby start school. It's so much easier to not have to explain why you have two last names. If it was a nice last name that was fluid, it would be probably easier.

Frank 13:35
That's something Adam and I thought about. I didn't want to you know what if Adam couldn't make school registration and I had to take Sophia, she clearly looks nothing like me. And if we had two different last names that and we're a gay couple, I just thought that maybe that would draw skepticism about our relation. And how can you be the parent?

Frank 13:55
You don't have the same last name. She doesn't look like you. How are you trying to register her for school? And then all these questions would happen. Maybe not in Illinois, in our liberal bubble where we live, but it was something that weighed heavily on my mind.

Erika 14:09
No, I think definitely. And I. I feel like in this, you know, hetero normative society that if a mother came with a different last name, there might be, oh, yeah, okay. That we got that. But there is still that. I don't want to say hesitation but maybe that's what it is to fully accept, you know, gay parents as parents.

Erika 14:31
And so I think that would I can see that being an issue, or at least as a gay parent, you feel like that validates it to people, that we're in a real relationship and we're seriously raising these children together where you don't have to do that in a hetero sexual relationship. You don't have to validate yourself. So I think that's like maybe part of it.

Erika 14:52
I mean, obviously, I don't I don't know if it's just kind of asking is that is that part of it.

Juan 14:58
Taking it with just Bella alone, so sometimes Chris can't make it to the groomers and she is hypoallergenic, so she has to get consistent grooming. Convenient. That was my number one rule. No shedding. So she's hypoallergenic, so she has to go to the groomer. Her hair like crazy within like two weeks. She's already can't see her face. So sometimes he can't make it due to his schedule.

Juan 15:20
And they go in and they're like, what's the last name to look? Ruiz Ward or Ward Ruiz. And then they're like, uh, it's not under here. It's kind of awkward for me because if it was just one last name, it would be easier. I don't have to explain myself as to why it's two last names, and then they kind of ask and they're, you know, they ask, Oh, it's under Chris, and Juan's a masculine name.

Juan 15:43
And Chris is obviously a, you know, with a C or so I guess that's a girl's name too. But yeah, so I have to kind of they know that I'm gay, so it's something that I didn't necessarily you don't care that they know, but it's something that they now have to know and that's just with the dog. I can't imagine with the child at registration how kind of awkward it might be.

Erika 16:03
And I know that, Adam, you're telling me that, like, he'll cross out if it says mother and father, he'll cross out mother and put father and father.

Juan 16:10
That's awesome.

Erika 16:11
You know, I hope that they start, gender

Frank 16:13
You know, for everyone out there listening, you know, even though we have gay marriage now it's 2018. Don't be alarmed when you register your children from school and notice that they still have mother and father on the forms in many facets of society, they just haven't caught up yet in terms of the paperwork that needs to be updated.

Frank 16:33
So you might see that on school registration forms and hospital intake forms when you take them to the doctor's office. It's just it's an unfortunate part of our society that is going to take a while to change and to catch up to the laws.

Erika 16:48
Oh, definitely.

Frank 16:49
But yeah, Adam, he always crosses it, says Mother. He crosses it out and writes Father right above it. So there's parent there. It'll say Father and then father two or something. So he yeah, he's very cognizant of that.

Erika 17:04
So a question at least for young most young woman. I was telling Frank and Adam earlier about my last name being very important to me. And there's no boys in the family to carry on. But for many young women being Mrs. Blank, blank, you know, mean something. It it solidifies it. Do you feel that in your relationship, Frank, that it made it feel more like a marriage to you?

Erika 17:29
And Juan, do you think that that's going to matter to you? In the future?

Frank 17:35
I'll go first. Yes, definitely having one last name made because at the time it was just a civil union, but being able to change my last name made it feel more like a marriage. I felt more equal because I was raised by heterosexual parents. They were both married and had the same last name. So I always thought that when I got married, I would be able to have the same last name as my partner.

Frank 18:03
So it made it feel more validated, I guess you could say.

Juan 18:08
Yeah, it completely agree growing. You know, my parents have been married for 29 years and it's very you kind of grew up in this household that that's what makes a family. It's togetherness. So having the same last name does kind of make you feel like you're kind of one and that's maybe. And at least for me, that's something that I value in marriage you're, you're a team.

Juan 18:26
So having the same last name, it's like Go Team Golden or Go Team Ruiz. But with that being said, I, for both women and men, when you want to carry on your legacy, it's also why was it mostly for for gay men? It's always now of who takes whose last name because that that makes you kind of submissive.

Juan 18:44
Are you less then with gay men? One of the most common questions that I usually get asked is who's the girl. So if I take his last name now, am I submissive to him? At least on paper it is. And then if and vice versa so that's kind of what brings it to the dogs. So we kind of agree to call her Ward Ruiz or Ruiz Ward, just so that we don't have that awkward conversation.

Frank 19:12
That's that is a completely different perspective that I'm glad we brought you in here because we didn't I mean, that was really great with the pets and everything. I had no idea that, you know, that's that's something to consider everyone out there listening, even if you're not going to have children with your your partner or spouse, um, pets, pets, you'd go through it.

Frank 19:34
Um.

Erika 19:36
Some people and I don't know many people, but I have heard of it, that people have made up their own last name. Kind of combine that you, you can. So yeah, I think in maybe.

Juan 19:48
Like a hybrid

Erika 19:49
Liberal states or people might do that, that's not something that.

Juan 19:53
Well look at. You know, I am a big big Kardashian fan

Erika 19:57
You are

Juan 19:57
She didn't take Kanye's last name. So you have two household names. You have Kim Kardashian West. She didn't want to give up the Kardashian name. And actually there was a little bit of controversy a couple of years back where Kris Jenner wanted to switch back to Kardashian because the Kardashian name is was a household name in she now all of you have Khloe and you have all of the sisters.

Juan 20:20
They don't want to change your last name because that's a brand. That's who are they identify with. But now they have they actually had a kid just via surrogacy.

Erika 20:27
Right, Chicago.

Juan 20:28
Chicago yeah.

Erika 20:30
Chicago.

Juan 20:31
So it's it's you know, for her, it she was just not only for gay couples, but for women. The the power of holding your last name so I think it's a sensitive topic. It's a really important one. I, I don't know what the right. I think it's whatever fits for you, but it's a hard decision because you're giving.

Erika 20:47
I don't think there's a right answer. I think it's just a matter of taking a different perspectives. And then kind of Adam was saying, and I think this is great advice is like, have a discussion about what your last name means to you. Like what it really means. Not just like, I don't want to look submissive. Like this means something to me because of blank.

Erika 21:06
And that's the discussion they had and it worked out that Frank could care less about his last name.

Frank 21:11
I could care less. And then just talking with Adam about it, I could tell that he was more passionate about keeping Golden is the last name, and I was completely on board, and I wanted our children to have that one unified name. So I was like, Okay, I'll be Frank Golden um, I did confide in my mom just to ask her if she would be.

Frank 21:33
I wanted to know her thoughts, what she would think if I changed my name. Yeah. So I I had a discussion with her. I called her, and I said, and this was probably a week or two before the ceremony, and I said, Mom, I am considering changing my last name. She was completely supportive, which, you know, just reinforced to me that I should that I should do that and I should go down that path.

Frank 21:56
And I'm glad that I did because now we have two lovely children that are amazing. And we've got a company now, Golden Surrogacy, so I love the name.

Erika 22:06
And that kind of comes to my last point, you know, some advice maybe you could give to our intended parents, Frank, if they can't come to a decision. But they they know that they want to have children together, how could they kind of overcome that?

Frank 22:21
I think, you know, it's a personal choice. I think if children are involved you really need to step outside of the situation and think about the children. And if you think they would face any additional adversity, having to explain because now you're putting your children in a situation where not only do they have to explain to society that they have two dads, but now they have to explain that they've got two last names as well.

Frank 22:46
So is that a situation you want to put them in or do you feel that it will basically build character and make them be proud of both origins of their family? So again, going back to what I said before, I don't think either choice is right or wrong. I just think it's a personal decision that the two of you need to have and come to a consensus before moving forward with having children.

Frank 23:08
Definitely.

Erika 23:09
And we've a lot of intended parents that have different last names. Gay couples, whether discussed or not, they're on their path to having a child. At the end of the day, if your values line up and the last name again, just be willing to compromise. Any thoughts from you guys? I mean, I. Any final thoughts or pieces of advice or.

Erika 23:30
For our intended parents.

Juan 23:31
It's a it's an important conversation you need to have. These are kind of the little conversations you know, getting started with surrogacy is always kind of overwhelming and a lot to think about. Choosing the right agency, choosing the right doctor, the right fertility center, everything you want it to be perfect, which is very important and understandable. But there's a little things that you have to think of in the long run.

Juan 23:52
I spoke with a couple of months long ago, and they were like, you know, they asked Frank the same question, like, what do you do when you're at the grocery store? And someone ask, where's your mommy? You know? And these are some of the questions that you kind of have to think long run, like, hey, who's whose last name are we going to take?

Juan 24:07
Are we going to have two separate names? Are we are we going to identify at school? How are we going to tell? So these are important questions that you can that it's nice pillow talk or something to just think about that can really give you more depth into your partner and into how you're going to build your family.

Frank 24:24
Yeah, totally. And I would say what, 80, 90% of our clients have to last names and oftentimes couples don't it's not something that they've even pondered or considered until they start embarking on their surrogacy journey. And then they ask me what they should do. It's not something that they even think about you know, when they first meet and fall in love and then get married, they just in a lot of cases, it seems both preserve the last name.

Frank 24:50
But then as soon as children are involved, that's when they want to know what they should do. So I think this podcast is I hope it has shed some light on what the different perspectives are.

Erika 25:01
And that there really is no right answer. And we all just you just kind of got to do what feels right for you and your family. That's what it sounds like. We kind of came to that conclusion.

Frank 25:12
Conclusion so.

Erika 25:14
Well, thanks for letting us bombard you, Juan.

Frank 25:16
Yes. Thank you so much.

Juan 25:18
Just working.

Frank 25:19
And that I think that's pretty much all we have on this topic, right? We're good. So so everyone out there who's listening, thank you so much for tuning in. I love doing consultations and intended parents and surrogates will say I listen to your podcast and I really love this one or that one. I'm glad people are listening and I really hope that our information is is useful.

Frank 25:40
And once again, if you have topics that you'd like for us to discuss email info@goldensurrogacy.com and you can follow us, all of our handles are @GoldenSurrogacy, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. This is Frank Golden, reminding you that Everyone Deserves a Family.