MIC'D
HR News brought to you by the Northeast Indiana Human Resource Association (NIHRA).
MIC'D
Turning Elephants into Opportunities
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
How can you transform difficult workplace conversations into opportunities for growth? Inspired by Sarah Noel Wilson's "Don't Feed the Elephants," we unpack the metaphor of "elephants in the room"—those unspoken issues that can hinder trust and productivity. Through strategies like building conflict capacity, compassionate curiosity, and intentional engagement, we explore how you can address these uncomfortable truths head-on. Our discussion aims to equip you with the tools to improve team dynamics and foster a culture of vulnerability and understanding.
McGowan Braebender is an independent, visionary benefits broker dedicated to reimagining employee benefits. With a rich history of over 50 years, mb continues to deliver personalized healthcare solutions to complex benefits challenges. Our approach, combining customized plan designs with strategic innovative thinking and one-on-one support, ensures comprehensive management of our clients' workforce and their benefits. Driven by our commitment to innovation and affordability, mv offers key service areas that empower our clients to navigate their benefits plan confidently. Our services include data analytics and reporting, compliance support, population health management, communication, engagement and advocacy. Through these services, we not only address current challenges, but also anticipate upcoming trends reimagining the future of employee benefits. For more information, contact Matt Heine, executive Vice President of Indiana.
Speaker 2Welcome to MICE, the podcast where we empower HR excellence, one conversation at a time.
Speaker 3Welcome back everyone. Today we're diving into an insightful book Don't Feed the Elephants by Sarah Noel Wilson. Sarah explores the dynamics of difficult conversations and unaddressed issues in both personal and professional relationships. The elephants in this context represent the problems, conflicts and uncomfortable truths that people avoid confronting. Sarah provides insights into why these elephants exist, how they impact interactions and strategies for addressing them effectively. Now this book has become quite the resource for leaders and teams, offering practical advice on handling those uncomfortable situations we often dodge at work.
Speaker 3And when we talk about elephants, we're not just referring to problems. It's about the unspoken issues, those giant topics in the room we don't address right. Some examples of these uncomfortable situations are addressing poor performance, giving negative feedback, discussing salary, setting boundaries and so many other situations. That can be hard to address is to do the right thing, and I use that core value as my guideline when I am bringing up or addressing issues of favoritism, discrimination or other unfair practices within the workplace. This can be exceptionally hard when you are also navigating different work styles. Sarah really explores this idea of elephants in the workplace, those unsaid things we actively avoid talking about. She uses the metaphor of not feeding elephants to illustrate that when we give these unspoken issues attention or feed them, they grow bigger and more daunting. The book dives deep into what these elephants are and why we need to address them before they wreak havoc on team dynamics.
Speaker 3Sarah identifies that elephants are the unspoken issues we avoid because of fear, discomfort or the belief that avoiding them will preserve harmony. These elephants can take many forms workplace conflicts, unresolved misunderstandings or ingrained cultural problems. By feeding the elephants, ignoring them, we inadvertently make them bigger and more disruptive Over time. They affect trust, productivity and overall well-being, and she breaks down some of the common elephants too. For instance, there's the fear of conflict, the tendency to please people or even the assumption that speaking up will lead to repercussions. It's like how many times have we been in a meeting where everyone is skirting around the actual problem, saying everything except what needs to be said?
Speaker 3One of the most valuable parts of the book is how it outlines why we avoid these conversations in the first place. Noel Wilson suggests that it's often a natural human reaction. We're hardwired to avoid discomfort, especially when it comes to interpersonal conflict. But what's interesting is that she says this avoidance can become habitual and even part of the team's culture. So the more we avoid addressing issues, the more entrenched these elephants become. And that brings up her concept of emotional feeding. When we avoid conversations, we're feeding the elephant with emotions like fear, anxiety and stress. Over time, this feeding makes the issue more complex. But here's the thing the longer we wait, the harder it gets to address it. Why do we avoid elephants?
Speaker 3The book delves into common reasons for avoiding difficult conversations, such as fear of conflict. Many people avoid confrontation due to fear of negative outcomes or the discomfort it may bring. Emotional safety Addressing an elephant often involves being vulnerable, which can feel risky. In environments lacking psychological safety and skill gaps, people might not have the tools or communication skills needed to effectively navigate tough conversations. Sarah Noel Wilson really nails it when she talks about the cost of feeding these elephants.
Speaker 3It's not just about the personal stress for individuals. It's about the collective impact on team performance, trust and overall company culture. She gives examples of how avoiding crucial conversations can result in a lack of transparency, reduced productivity and sometimes even a toxic work environment. And what's really helpful is that the book doesn't just identify the problem, it offers solutions. Noel Wilson introduces strategies to recognize when an elephant is present and how to address it without making it worse by avoiding these conversations, the problems don't disappear. Instead, they grow and impact various aspects of our lives In the workplace. This leads to a decline in communication, employee engagement and team dynamics. It can also create a culture where distrust and resentment fester. She suggests building conflict capacity within teams, which is all about increasing everyone's comfort level of having tough conversations. She provides practical steps for doing this.
Speaker 3One strategy that stood out to me is the idea of preparing for compassionate curiosity. Instead of approaching these conversations with judgment or a set agenda, she suggests starting from a place of curiosity, ask questions like what might be going on here or what assumptions am I making? It's about creating a safe space where people feel heard and validated, which can open the door to more honest dialogue. That's key right. The idea is to shift from avoidance to intentional engagement. It's about fostering a culture where addressing elephants becomes part of the norm, not the exception, and noel wilson talks about the power of vulnerability in these moments. She suggests that where addressing elephants becomes part of the norm, not the exception, and Noel Wilson talks about the power of vulnerability in these moments. She suggests that leaders and team members own their feelings and perspectives when approaching these conversations, for instance, saying something like I feel uneasy about this situation and I'd like us to talk through it. She also emphasizes the importance of listening during these discussions.
Speaker 3One of the elephants she highlights is the tendency to jump to conclusions or assume we know what others are thinking. The book encourages active listening, where you not only hear but also understand the emotions and concerns behind someone's words. It's a reminder that sometimes addressing an elephant is more about listening than talking. That point about listening is so important. Noel Wilson discusses that addressing these issues is not about having a one-size-fits-all approach. Each conversation will be different depending on the people and the context. Sometimes it's about clearing up a misunderstanding, while other times it's unpacking deeper systemic issues within the team or organization, and the process is ongoing. It's not like you address the elephant once and it's gone forever. Noel Wilson suggests that building a team culture where elephants are consistently addressed requires continual effort and practice. Leaders need to model this behavior, showing that it's okay and necessary to talk about tough subjects.
Speaker 3What are some strategies to stop feeding the elephants? Identify the elephants. The first step is to recognize when elephants are present. This requires self-awareness and a willingness to observe both your environment and interactions. Cultivate curiosity. Wilson suggests approaching these conversations with a mindset of curiosity rather than judgment. By being open and seeking to understand others' perspectives, you can reduce defensiveness, embrace vulnerability. Being open about feelings and concerns can help foster a safe space for others to share and engage in honest dialogue. Practical conversation techniques the book provides scripts and methods for starting difficult conversations, such as using I notice Statements and asking open-ended questions. To encourage dialogue. Create a culture of feedback. A significant point is the need for organizations to build a culture that normalizes feedback and supports open, honest communication. When people feel safe to speak up, elephants are less likely to thrive. It's empowering to think that by not feeding these elephants, you're actively creating a healthier work environment.
Speaker 3One of the most compelling takeaways from the book is the idea that conflict isn't inherently bad. In fact, productive conflict is necessary for growth, innovation and building trust within teams. The book offers a new perspective on how we view conflict. Instead of seeing it as something to avoid, noel Wilson encourages us to see it as an opportunity to connect, learn and improve. By addressing these elephants, we can turn what seems like a negative into a positive force for change.
Speaker 3Wilson encourages readers to become elephant tamers those who proactively address issues rather than allowing them to grow. This involves being brave, empathetic and intentional in fostering a culture of open dialogue. It means leading by example, showing others that it's okay to address uncomfortable topics for the sake of growth and better relationships. And to wrap it up, don't Feed the Elephants really challenges us to be braver in the workplace. It's about embracing discomfort for the sake of building stronger, more authentic relationships at work. The practical strategies and real-life examples in the book make it an essential read for anyone looking to improve team dynamics, whether you're a leader or a team member.
Speaker 3The key takeaway is that avoiding conversations doesn't make issues go away. It only makes them grow. By facing these elephants head-on, we can create a work environment where openness and honesty lead to better collaboration and success. Addressing elephants requires curiosity, vulnerability and the right communication tools. Creating a supportive environment that values honest conversations is crucial for personal and organizational health. If you haven't read Don't Feed the Elephants yet, I'd highly recommend picking up a copy. Don't Feed the Elephants is a practical guide to tackling difficult conversations and transforming unspoken issues into opportunities for growth. By addressing the elephants in our lives, we can build healthier relationships, more effective teams and more transparent workplaces. Wilson's strategies empower readers to confront the discomfort of these conversations, ultimately leading to stronger, more authentic interactions For our listeners. If you've had experiences addressing or avoiding elephants in the room, we'd love to hear your stories. That's all for today's episode. Until next time, remember, don't feed the elephants. Coming up next a member spotlight interview.
Speaker 4Hi everyone. Today, featuring our member spotlight with Naira, I have Lisa Mungovan, who's the owner of Mungovan HR Consulting LLC. Lisa, welcome, tell us what NYRA means to you.
Member Benefits and Insights
Speaker 5Thank you for hosting me, nyra. I have been a member for a long time. I was a member before it was NYRA, it was PYRA, and I've always relied on it number one to be at to educate me on topics. I think that's the biggest one, but the networking is important too. I've met so many people through NIRA and have been on committees. I enjoy the annual meeting that is held in May, again learning a lot of things, but also just meeting a lot of different people and they work for all different industries, so learning about the industries as well Awesome.
Speaker 4As far as I know, and you brought up Pyra and I had recently actually learned of that and I was like, oh, wow, that's an interesting fact about how it's evolved in that. Lisa, are you a SHRM member? Yes, I am, and how? Approximately how long have you been a SHRM member? Since 2006. Okay, okay, how do you feel like there's been a lot of evolution of SHRM in?
Speaker 5those years, absolutely Early on, when NYRA was first, we actually had resource. We attempted the board attempted to have resource pages so that they, our members, could get information, and more of us became NIRA members and SHRM members at the same time so we could get the information from them. But yeah, the white papers, the resources, the templates that SHRM has, I get the magazine and I read that and I share it with colleagues as well. So a lot of those things. I have never been to a national conference, as I understand it. They're very large and they have a lot of really good speakers to those as well. So I know way back when it was not the case.
Speaker 4Wow, yeah, that's on my list. I have not, either, been to a national and I definitely would like to have that experience. This will be a good year. It's in Chicago, so it's not too far. I know Very close. So, lisa, tell us why you chose human resources.
Speaker 5Well, back when I had graduated from high school, I sat out a year. I had everything ready to go to college and I just decided I just didn't want anything to do with it. So I worked two jobs and the manager of the grocery store that I worked for suggested I take just one class. And so I started in operations management at IU and knew that I liked the way things needed to be managed. But then when I took my first HR related class and I had students in there that were most of them were working adults. They talked about all the different things that they got to do in HR, and some of them focused on specializing and other ones focused on more of the generalist role. It sounded it was a good fit for me.
Speaker 4I can't agree more with that. I think I had a similar kind of experience with just learning about how much what could be involved in HR and all the opportunities. So, lisa, what would you say? What would be a part of HR, of that, your experience, that you enjoy the most?
Speaker 5The variety, I think, is you never. Most days you want to try to plan, but things change and can change in a minute and in 2020,. We experienced so much where everybody said you have to pivot, and I'm thinking but HR people pivot all the time. One of my primary reasons is just watching people succeed that don't always think that they can, and, with given the right amount of coaching and training, seeing them just the light shine behind with them, that it's like gosh. I did this and I didn't think I could, but I really appreciate you being there for me. I think those are the bigger ones.
Speaker 4Yeah, and that means so much. That means so much for that person that might not see that and, yeah, I love that you shared that. I thought that was really great. Lisa, what would you say are your top three things that you consider to be beneficial about being a NIRAM member? And I know you highlighted them at the welcoming of the beginning of our podcast, but what are some other? Maybe we have some additional things, but what are those those things you consider?
Speaker 5The networking is important because we can rely on each other.
Speaker 5I I've if I need someone that is working in recruiting and I've got a client that needs that and I know that I'm not the best capable person I I do warm introductions to my clients, to them so that they can find the most qualified candidates quickly.
Speaker 5The education, I think, is just it's ongoing and I've not met an HR person that isn't a lifelong learner.
Speaker 5We're always eager to learn things and more efficient ways of doing things, because things that have has evolved a lot, and more efficient ways of doing things because things that have has evolved a lot, whether it be the automated systems and the AI and all of those things that are coming our way, but learning how we can then help our employees. In my case, clients know how they can be more accepting of it and not be afraid of it. But this is how things may evolve and, as we know more, I'm not one to put out speculation from attorneys on some of the laws that may be changing until we know for sure and I've gotten feedback from them that they really appreciate that they don't need a lot of emails that this may be. This may happen, like with the new FLSA rules. But it's good to know that, and I'm able to get that not only from NYaira, but I attend law webinars and those types of things to keep up to date on things too.
Speaker 5Yeah, valuable information from all those aspects for sure, and with Naira, I think Naira has done a great job of expanding, educating us. Not only is it the weekly or monthly meetings, but the HR Power talk, the legal ease, the membership breakfast. Those are all things that were not happening previously. I was on the board through 19 and we had the monthly meetings and they were good, but I think now the expansion of a lot of other things are keeping people in our industry up to date on things.
Speaker 4Yeah, and Lisa, I also wanted to add, for everyone listening too that, yeah, you served as a board member on NYRA and you said that you just said that was back in 2019 timeframe, so you also had that insight and I know me I'm a new board member that has so enlightened me on so many things personally, professionally, all aspects. But we're thank you for your volunteerism too, for serving on Naira and your time and and wanted to add that in too so for your experiences that you've had with the monthly luncheons. Do you have a favorite speaker that stands out or something you'd like to share, who that is and why you thought they stood out as your favorite, Sure, the most recent ones.
Speaker 5Dr Martise Hammons, I think, was the one that I enjoyed the most. It was very animated, but the message that he was able to convey about biases and helping all of us understand our own biases, whether they be implicit or otherwise, the graphs that he showed and the diagrams that he showed were I'm a very visual learner and so it just really helped me understand that more. And as I watched and I watch people so watching at the meetings and I was watching individuals and there were just a lot of aha moments that I saw going on. So he's the most recent one.
Speaker 5Back in 2008, my job had been eliminated from the company that I had worked for and I was just floundering.
Speaker 5I wanted a company that had the same culture we had built in that particular company. But Steve Gilliland was the one that was a keynote speaker back then and he was hilarious, but he just gave us some fundamental things that really aligned with how I, my values, are. But then he came back in 2015 and part of his sentence, or statement, or putting sentence, was can you believe it's been seven years? And it just hit me as, oh my gosh, I plan to be at this respective employer for two years and then move on into something else at this respective employer for two years and then move on into something else. Now I held three jobs at that particular company, but it was just like my strategy was two years and seven. He had said seven years and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I just it, it didn't even occur to me, Wow. And he said some of the same things that he said back in 2008 and I didn't care, but that was just very eye-opening for me.
Speaker 4Okay, yeah, that intrigued me. That was before I became a member, so I couldn't recall that one with Steve, but I feel like the same. I think it's true what you said. The observations made by Dr Martiz were. I noticed that too in the room, so I'm glad you shared. That was one of your memorable speakers for Naira. So I have some, of course, I like to add in some fun questions so we can learn a little different side of our members. But, lisa, if you could choose one song that you played every time you walked into a room, what song would that be and why?
Speaker 5I really like Coldplay. Got to see them for the first time in 2017 at Soldier Field in Chicago, and the song that I really liked just because of the music and the beat and it's upbeat is called the Adventure of Lifetime. The lyrics have nothing to do with human resources nothing at all but I would play it every day. It was just very upbeat. I was taking my grandson to kindergarten and, at different ages, I would play it every day and we would just bounce around and not sing along. It was just the song. And when they played it in 2017, chicago had the worst storms come through that day and we were going in an Uber in the storm. They had already canceled five of the opening acts and we weren't sure if they were going to play. Get there and the seats are wet. We've got class left. Sorry, sorry, the plastic things over us, just in case.
Speaker 5And it stopped all the rain stopped and the sky cleared and so they were able to come out and play and they were able to get all the three other sets done, and then it started raining and I'm very safety focused so I'm thinking, oh my gosh, they're on the stage with all that equipment and they want to keep playing. And it's like I mean, when they played that song, the crowd just roared and they had cannons that were blowing, confetti, colored confetti all over the place and all the lights. It was just a really cool song.
Navigating Apps and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
Speaker 4Sounds fun. Yeah, it sounds like fun and I know their tunes are definitely upbeat. You'll have to check that one out. Yeah, I know some of them, so they are some good tunes. I like this question and it's always intriguing to me. You know what others would consider to be their top three apps. If you could have just three, which ones would those be?
Speaker 5My three are primarily for survival for me, so Maps is definitely one, google if I need to find something. But LinkedIn has been a great app for me, not only for myself to connect with people that I've never met before, but also to share and comment and to grow my business During 2020,. I'm a real people person I think most HR people are and it really bugged me that I couldn't go out and meet with people and so I just decided I'm just going to link with people that I've never met, but I thought they had a really cool job, and so that's what I did. I linked in with some executive directors of some nonprofits in the area that I'd never met, but I heard really good things about them and they were willing to talk. So we did virtual meetings and then after 2020 and we could get together. We still get together, so I really enjoy that.
Speaker 4Yeah, and it is a for a moment. I think not that I want to say my age or how old I feel, but I'm like what before apps? It's amazing that we have these at our fingertips especially on those, these apps now.
Speaker 4So I'm just thinking, yeah, it's just fun stuff. So, lisa, do you, or would you, or do you have a favorite quote? Not necessarily quote, you could be a saying or motto, that that you stand by or that you'd like to share with everybody when I started my business, and I was never one that wanted to open start own business.
Speaker 5But I found my why, and that was we have so many small businesses in Northeast Indiana that can't afford to have a full HR person. They have their administrative person that processes payroll, etc. But, as I learned with many people starting businesses, there's this imposter syndrome that lurks in our brain to let us know that we're not necessarily qualified to do this, and so one of the presentations that I had gone to she had presented that imposter syndrome is not a clue that you're unqualified, it's a sign of hidden potential. When you think others are overestimating you, it's more likely that you're underestimating yourself.
Speaker 4Yeah, that is I had, that's just. Yeah, it's a. I like that. I like that you shared that. It puts a different perspective right. It does.
Speaker 5Yeah for sure it does, and I find that with newer HR people, I've just finished a project where I've been developing a newer hr person and she had, I think, about seven months in retail, 11 months in payroll, but she's bilingual and very talented young lady, um. But it was just getting her what she needed, that foundation, so that she could make the decisions and feel confident about it, and I've done that.
Speaker 4A lot in my role is helping those administrators that either hate HR because they don't know it well enough, but once they get to know it, then it's okay, I can do this, yeah, so yeah, and thank you for I think whoever connects with you or has your guidance, your clients and everything I can even just in the time we've talked, your passion for that and, like you said, wanting to see that through, to develop someone and see that I can see that passion and that's awesome, cause I think that's when that's genuine and authentic from an HR person. I think that it can just unfold so many things. So, thank you, it's just great. Lisa, thank you for what you do. Yes.
Speaker 5And I had the benefit of having good mentors as I was going through my career, and I had some bad bosses too, but I learned from them that I would never treat people that way, and so I try to teach that as well.
Speaker 4Paying it forward, right, carrying it forward? Absolutely yes. So, lisa, do you have any encouraging words for someone who's listening that's considering to join Naira? I?
Speaker 5talk about Naira all the time. When I meet with my clients. I encourage them to consider it. I suggest that they come as a guest. I have them go to Nairaorg and look at the different speakers that are going to be presenting.
Speaker 5I just finished working with a nonprofit and the executive assistant is going to be doing HR, and so I started explaining to her different resources that are available. Naira, of course, was one of them, and so she's so excited. She looked at Nairaorg, looked at what the things are. She's signed up for the annual meeting already and the one thing is encouraging them. If they don't want to come because they don't know anybody is, I will meet you and you can sit with us and I will introduce you to people so that you can feel more comfortable with that. But if they can just take one thing, just one thing away from the speaker, I have some colleagues that think that they know a lot and we all do, especially if we've worked in HR for quite some time but there hasn't been one speaker that I've heard that there wasn't at least one thing I could take away.
Speaker 4Excellent and we we, the efforts are there. We're trying to our board, trying to work at adding that value for those lunch, monthly luncheons and speakers. And, lisa, we appreciate you as a member and in what you've just said and shared about assisting with those new members and making people feel welcome and making people feel that opening that up and helping them interact and talk to people, because while most of us are people, there are some introverts in the room and so that helps. So thank you for doing that and what you do to help promote NYRA as well. So that wraps up our interview for the Member Spotlight. Lisa, thank you so much for your time on this. I've enjoyed talking with you. Thank you for listening. Stay tuned for our next episode.