What You Really Lose in a Divorce

What do we really lose when love ends? It’s not just the person. It’s your identity. Your purpose. Your future. Even your grocery list.

In this brutally honest episode of UnYoked, Todd Turner and author Marcus Ferris unpack the hidden grief that hits after a breakup or divorce. From shared memories and meaning, to purpose and neededness, this is the conversation most people wish they had years ago.

In this episode:

• Why grieving a breakup is more than emotional pain
• The lost virtue domain—and why Christian men especially feel it
• How to rebuild when the shared goals, friends, and rhythms vanish
• The danger of dating too soon (and what to do instead)
• Why men and women numb differently—and how to fight the real monster

If you’re single, divorced, or still reeling from the quiet fallout of a breakup, this episode is your mirror, your guide, and maybe even your elixir.

🟡 UnYoked is a podcast for Christian singles, empty nesters, and anyone rebuilding after loss.
🎧 Guest: Marcus Ferris | Mission 22, Coach, and Author

https://stan.store/IronStrongLife 

Instagram @ultrarunfarris

Marcus Farris is an author, counselor, health coach, and Army Reserve officer. He currently works full-time for the veteran non-profit, Mission 22 as the Post Traumatic Growth Director. He joined their team in January 2020 after serving as an Engineer Officer in Alaska for four years. 

He has his undergraduate degree in Industrial and Systems Engineering and holds his Masters of Science degree in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. He is also a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach. 

Through his research, field testing, and writing, he now serves Veterans through healthy living programs and content creation.

Transcript

Todd Turner (00:00)
Hey friends, today we're going to talk about something that does not get said loud enough. What we actually lose when a relationship ends. Whether it's a divorce, a breakup, or a slow unraveling of something that once gave your life shape. The grief that follows can feel overwhelming and honestly confusing. We're not just grieving a person, we're grieving identity, purpose, community, even the future we thought we were headed towards.

Marcus (00:00)
Today we're going talk about something that does not get said loudly. ⁓

Whether it's a force, a breakup, or a slow unraveling of something that once gave your life shape, the grief that follows can feel overwhelming and honestly confusing. We're not just grieving a person, we're grieving identity, purpose, community, even the future we thought we were headed towards.

Todd Turner (00:27)
Sometimes the worst part isn't the loneliness, it's not knowing who you are anymore without them. So today, let's name it. Let's talk about what really

Marcus (00:27)
Sometimes the worst part isn't alone in it, it's not knowing who you are anymore without them. So today, let's name it. Let's talk about what

Todd Turner (00:37)
gets lost when love falls apart, how the process of healing starts by simply admitting the weight of that loss. And to join us, we welcome author Marcus Ferris. Thank you for joining us, Marcus.

Marcus (00:49)
Hey Todd super stoked to be here today

Todd Turner (00:51)
All right, well, let's get to know, let our audience get to know you first. You're in the business of helping people rebuild and repurpose. So can you fill us in a little bit on the trials that made you become an expert in this field?

Marcus (01:03)
Yeah, definitely. So I'll start with the end, which is that I currently work at a, for my full-time position, company called Mission 22, which is a veteran nonprofit that effectively teaches how people, how to do post-traumatic growth. So when somebody has gone through combat or has gone through a military experience that's left them, a good term would be morally injured. Meaning I thought I had a way of understanding how people interact and how I interact with people.

sort of like a personal philosophy of the world, if you will. And then it gets shattered in a very short amount of time. So as we grow up, when we're little, we need to know, like step by step, we need to learn how to kind of update our worldview. Sort of the map and the territory are always, there's always going to be a little bit of a delta. ⁓ But under normal circumstances, learning that is a sort of stepwise process. It's, you know, it's not traumatic where it all sort of happens at once, but then it can come to pass where certain life events

occur where the way that you thought things were are so radically different from how they currently are that it leaves us morally injured. Not my term, but it was one that I found has been kind of helpful. So it's not quite, it's like, you know, we throw around the word trauma a lot and sometimes that can be misunderstood. Like is the trauma of getting a laceration on the leg that I have to go to the ER for the same thing as a trauma of hearing news about, you know, a betrayal or something like that. And so

That's kind of where I'm at now, but where I, you know, my background was, was a engineer student at Auburn university and we, you know, I was an ROTC at that point, went off to the army for a couple of years. Uh, and they sent me up to Alaska, which is where I had met my first wife. And that was, that was a time where in my early twenties was, was having kind of a rough go of, you know, where am I headed in life in terms of finding a mate? And.

having been at Auburn for like four and half years, I really had no luck, it would seem. And, you know, it wasn't like I was that awkward and, you know, I didn't think I was, I had some things going for me, right? Like I was going to the army, I was like a pretty okay athlete and this and that, and things just didn't seem to, you know, line up in that way. But then once I met this person there, like what I thought was like, oh, this is, this is it. This is the thing. And, you know, then you start building your expectations and your

Um, you're, you're planning for the future all happens sort of with this person involved. And then, you know, after, uh, I left Alaska, you know, the things that had sort of supported that relationship in many ways that I took for granted went away. And eventually that, um, in like 2019 or so is when that all sort of came crumbling down. And after finishing my active duty time.

I was definitely in like this sort of limbo space, sort of wandering the wilderness. And there were a couple of key sort of aids and time of need that I had where I had several moments where it was like, if you've ever been to one of those candlelight services for Christmas Eve, where like they shut all the lights off and then it starts with just the one candle. And I had one of those moments that was extraordinarily salient in that journey where it was like, man, everything except this one thing seems to be falling apart.

And it was kind of out of that one thing that I ended up where I am with Mission 22. Now with them coming up on, ⁓ it'll be six years actually at the end of this year. as kind of like on the side, if you will, I also work with local people in terms of like coaching and sort of counseling. I went to school for both and I'm starting to see more and more, especially in the church, just the need for conversations where

You know, people, a lot of people don't know how to even engage in this and get to a point where you can have a conversation with someone where afterward it's like, okay, that makes a little bit more sense. It's one thing to like be with somebody and it's like, hey man, I don't know what you're going through, but I'm here. And that's a wonderful thing to have those types of people in your life. But then there, you know, I had even somebody yesterday come to me and was like, hey, my life fell apart again. The wedding didn't happen. I like, need help. And like, okay, I'm here. I'm going to pat you on the head. I'm here for you.

Okay, but what do I do? And so getting more more specific on what others have done, hearing stories of like, how do people get through this other side? Everyone has sort of a unique, know, they have their idiosyncrasies of how it plays out, but there are also a lot of parallels and commonalities. so it's like, I think why conversations like this can be really helpful to see like, what did that person do and how can I apply it?

Todd Turner (05:29)
No, I love it. Well, I tell people all the time, you know, back before I knew when I was the guy who patted people on the head, it was like, divorced. Something bad happened. ⁓ Y'all decided to split. One of you is moving out. You're going to sign a sheet of paper and then you're both meet somebody else and live happily ever after. Good luck. I did not really realize how layered divorce is because there's what got you divorced or all the things that got you divorced. There's the divorce and then there's post divorce.

And this to me is in that post divorce part of like, you just don't have a death of a relationship. It is a death of a lot of different things and you have to process that and sort of what you just said, I steal the phrase all the time, thoughts disentangle themselves over the lips and through the fingertips. When you talk, when you write these little emotions and thoughts that you have can land. And it's so good when you can have people who've been through it. That's why I'm excited to talk to you because

You've thought about these things and sometimes I talk I have this discussion with people they ponder it but they they're just pondering. They're just thinking about it where you're I really appreciate how you really thought through the different. I hate using the word things but get the little different levels of what died and so can you talk a little bit about that like you sent me an email and it had some some really good points to them, but I'm going to just look down real quick like shared memories die.

Marcus (06:43)
Mm-hmm.

shared memory style,

Todd Turner (06:54)
shared goals

Marcus (06:54)
shared goals.

Todd Turner (06:56)
died. I think like sexual expression dies. Like can you talk a little bit about those layers of the things that you're grieving, but you don't really know how to put a hat, where to put the hat on it.

Marcus (07:07)
Yeah, definitely and I think and especially within like the initial aftermath or sort of that like shock period if you will there's a desperation for the brain to like I need some type of predictability like understanding that one of the jobs of your biological brain is to create a future that Reduces chaos and has some order and predictability so you know what's coming next? but then so I just watched the movie warfare last night and there are some scenes in that movie where

as ⁓ an audience member that's very invested, one of the things that they did was like, there was no soundtrack at all. And so you kind of have these little hints that they're about to be attacked, that they're getting surrounded on all sides, but you have no idea when or where, and you're just sort of like in this, you know, fight, flight or freeze, like, what's going to happen? And then, you know, out of nowhere, like a grenade just falls into your lap and like everything changes. And so, and, that sort of like, like my relationship's gone, what do I do?

Todd Turner (07:51)
and arrest.

Marcus (08:01)
I think the first thing is to realize like, A, your brain is doing its job to try to create predictability for the future, but it can't right now. Not really. Not when it comes to that most important relationship, or at least what was the most important relationship. So at first, it seems to me that the best way to approach it is to just grieve. Like, Hey, you need to let go of trying to figure this out and to try to make sense of it and simply grief, because that's actually probably the most appropriate emotion.

Todd Turner (08:23)
Mm-hmm.

Marcus (08:28)
And so, well, what specifically do we grieve? How to grieve is not really a thing that's easy to answer for everybody, right? You've heard of the models of grief, right? The denial, the bargaining and all of that. They're all just models. are like four different ones and take them all with a grain of salt because everyone grieves in a different way, but knowing what to grieve, we'll deal with the how later, but what to grieve can be beneficial. so...

The first thing on, so this is taken from a course that I made, if anybody's interested in checking out the full thing, but this is on a chapter called What is Lost? And the first one is a virtue domain. And this one might be more applicable to guys than ladies, but know, take it for what it's worth. A virtue domain basically, imagine you have the Christian guy who's kind of doing the best that he can in his work. ⁓ Things at home are kind of tough, but at least he has like that job that brings in money.

He is a provider. He might hate the job, but he'll go back to the salt mines because he's providing. Like it's, where he can do his Christianity. If that makes sense. It's a, it's an arena where he can practice. Like I'm going to like be self-sacrificial. I'm going to be Christ-like. I'm going to bear this burden of this job that I really don't like, which if you look at the statistics of how many people would change jobs, if they could, it's, it's like something like 80%. Um, and so.

Todd Turner (09:29)
Mm-hmm.

Marcus (09:46)
When you're no longer having to provide for another person or having to provide for this family, it's like, no, now where do I exercise my Christian virtue that I'm trying to develop? And so that can go away. ⁓ And so I think that's, in the rebuilding process, which kind of maybe comes later, that might be something to consider of like, okay, your family or that spousal relationship is no longer a domain that's available for you to do your Christian walk. Where else can you do that?

Todd Turner (10:13)
Yeah.

Marcus (10:13)
Maybe

you do need to the job. Maybe you need to find a different friend group or find somebody else who needs help because giving help is the most often the best way to receive it. ⁓

Todd Turner (10:23)
Can

I go there? Is this where purpose comes in? Meaning I frequently talk about how when I was a, I did empty nesting and divorce at the same time. So I lost spouse and family, but it was nice to go to the grocery store because going to the grocery store, I wasn't just shopping. was buying my wife's favorite meal. I was buying my kids favorite thing and that gave me purpose. And now I just shop for food. Is that where, is that that part you're talking about?

Marcus (10:45)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (10:51)
Or is that something else?

Marcus (10:52)
Yeah, it's a little of both. So let's talk about that. So there's a difference between purpose and meaning. Purpose is I matter to something. Meaning means something matters to me. And so it's this sort of, it's a relationship that you have really. So purpose and meaning are two ways of describing the directionality of a relationship that you have to something for you. Something that's relevant to you of all of the things that could be relevant to you in the world. And so when it's like, well, what matters to me anymore after this? If all of your mattering

Todd Turner (11:02)
Hmm.

Marcus (11:20)
occurred within that relationship, well shoot, like what's left? ⁓ How do I matter anymore? Am I simply matter, material? It's a funny little play on words here. Like, am I just material in this world that's just bumping around and, you know, turning oxygen into carbon dioxide, or do I matter to something? And so we can know that we matter to things and that we have purpose where we matter to them. ⁓ When we have

Todd Turner (11:24)
All

Marcus (11:45)
an arena, like I love this, this idea of agent arena relationship where it's kind of like, ⁓ you know, if you feel like you would use the word absurd to describe where you are in life, that's when it's sort of like, imagine a tennis player in a football field. Like, what am I doing here? Like the rule set that I thought that I lived my life by doesn't apply and this feels absurd. And so being in that sort of limbo state of, I thought we were playing football. And then all of a sudden I find myself at the racket in my hand.

Todd Turner (12:04)
Uh-huh.

Marcus (12:14)
no, no, the football doesn't mean anything to me. I don't have a team that I'm purposeful for. so in that way of looking at it, I think it can be helpful to know that like, if it's, if we look at it as like a virtue domain, we can find a different domain in which to exercise that, if that makes sense.

Todd Turner (12:29)
Okay.

Yeah, does. Okay. All right. All right. That, that helps. All right. I derailed a little bit. So the first thing was virtual domain. And then I think I mentioned shared memory. Do you want to go into that?

Marcus (12:39)
Yeah, the next one is like an external memory bank. And so this is one that when I came across it, it was like, yeah, of course it would work that way. So when two people share like a life very closely with one another, there's like, if you were to ask a guy and a girl, what did you, how did the date go? Like the girl's like, you know, like there, are all these like details that she'll, she'll bring up and like, he, smiled at me at the door and he was wearing his, you know, purple hoodie and blah, blah, blah, like all these little things.

Todd Turner (12:56)
Mm-hmm.

Marcus (13:08)
And then the guy will be like, yeah, it pretty well. It was good. like, you know, so detail versus like bird's eye view. so I think God designed men and women's brains to key in on different things purposefully where generally speaking, men are like big picture. Where's this going? What's like the strategic level women tend to be more focused on the tactical level. And that can make for a great, you know, partnership. then when, when that's gone, then

Todd Turner (13:11)
No.

Marcus (13:35)
The sort of system of those two brains working together now is just a single brain. And you might take for granted, like, ⁓ I was relying on her, like, honey, are we going to see the Smiths again? Right? Like it's, you know, and then that's gone. And that's one of the things where it's like, man, like the, can't say anymore, hey, remember when? So you lose a person to say that to ⁓ for those particular memories. And that's something that's gonna be rough to let go of.

Todd Turner (14:00)
No, that's 100 % right is I still, even with my ex, every once in a while something will happen and we'll reach out to one another. We have a cordial relationship, but we have memories that are only ours and so when something else happens, she's like, hey, did you know someone so died or something like, no, I didn't. She wouldn't have told me, but they're our friends. They're not my friend or not her friend. They're our friends or that's our memory. And it has no one else to share, no one else in the world.

Marcus (14:21)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (14:27)
She could share that with the night and so everyone's always reach out because it's our there's just some things that if you don't have that connection that person anymore, those things are gone and you have no one to tell. I actually it's really funny you say that because I was literally today thinking about this, know, men are very ⁓ logical and we we plan for the future and women are way more empathetic and it makes a great it makes a great relationship and when you pull out one.

I think men can be men easier without women. think women have a hard time being women and men because they have to, this is a whole nother concept. I've really been chewing on, but women have to take on a masculine role and keep their femininity. Men can just ignore the femininity, but we sure miss it because I God wired us for both. You know, that that's why we make great partners together. ⁓ the other thing I want to say too about this, I'm fascinated by this about shared memory.

Marcus (15:11)
God, why are there so many boats?

Todd Turner (15:23)
our first date, we both have memory of the restaurant, but my memory is seeing her and what's behind her. Her memory is seeing me and what's behind me. We have totally two separate memories of the same thing. then it's just an interesting concept, right? Sort of fits that.

Marcus (15:23)
both have memory of the restaurant, but my memory is seeing her and what's behind her. memory is seeing me and what's behind me. We have only two separate screens of the same thing.

Yeah, yeah. And the ability to sort of like outsource certain types of remembering goes away too.

Todd Turner (15:45)
Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right. Because you're saying you can't what what so-and-so's name could you help me do you know, your partner and it's really interesting when you were talking about that a minute ago. was thinking about sort of works with chores the same way you have a life rhythm because you know, oh, they're good at this and I'm good at this and you'll go do that and you just rely on your partner and when that shared memory those shared skills go away, you've lost all of that and you have to reset which is part of the numbing and the

the grieving, I suppose, you're talking about. Okay, let's hit some more because I want you to in the weeds of every one these, which we very well may. ⁓ So that's past. What about future vision, future goals?

Marcus (16:27)
Yeah, we talked about how the brain is often a prediction machine and how men especially are very concerned. know, focus, put their, lot of their attention on like, Hey, where's this going? What's the sort of bigger picture? And you start to build up, ⁓ let's see, how would we call it? So there's a, there's an idea here where, the word is entropy. So entropy kind of describes the, like when there's more entropy in the system, there's more like uncertainty.

So for example, in the stock market, if you have a high entropy environment, it's much more volatile. People are more squirrely about how they invest. If there's less entropy, means like, I have a better idea of what's ahead. Right. ⁓ And so when it comes to future planning, we are, again, we're kind of machines that want to reduce entropy in the future. ⁓ And the current cognitive science world, this is a area of intense study right now. There's a theory that basically says like, that's the key.

Todd Turner (17:13)
time.

Marcus (17:21)
job of the brain to distinguish, I'm distinguishing that from like your consciousness or mind, but your, your brain's activity is trying to reduce future entropy. And the more you can kind of plan, the more you can kind of project a vision into the future, the lower and lower that entropy starts to go. But then if all of a sudden, bam, like something happens that like, no, none of that is possible now. Like now you're in a very high entropy environment. So what do you do? Like how do you.

Todd Turner (17:45)
Mm-hmm.

Marcus (17:48)
And again, I think it's like when you get hit with this wave of uncertainty, like grief is the first thing that we need to do. It's kind of like when, so I love this analogy where, um, if, know, I might be working with a coaching client who is maybe at the very beginning of the session, he or she is like, obviously spun up emotionally in some way. And it's kind of like when clouds are covering the sun. And so what I'll relate is like, Hey, that you, the spiritual version of you that we're unfolding into.

all our lives is the blue sky. Right? God created you with that blue sky. Does the weather ever affect the blue sky? No. Right? So the truest version of yourself that God intended you to be is the sky, but there like weather exists. Right? And so clearing the sky by processing some of those, you know, also again, as men, like sometimes there's an emotion and it just displays as anger. It's sort of the default emotion. It's sort of like,

Todd Turner (18:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Marcus (18:41)
Anger is like fear's public mask. I've heard it said something like that. so ⁓ grieving is like, is that healthiest way to clear out the, like all of that fog that just got there from entropy. And then you can kind of start to see after a little bit, like, okay, all right, now that's out of the system. At least in some ways, man, there, there, there was definitely a day I remember where it was almost, I won't say it was like my final day of grieving, but

Dude, like I didn't know that type of fluid could come out of my face. It was kind of, but like after it, like that was the day where I fully accepted like, okay, this is not like I have to accept, like the stages of griefing denial, you know, there's, there's a reason it's there. ⁓ coming to terms, you know, the, the word coming to terms is kind of interesting, right? Like what are the new terms of your future? It does not include that person. Not really not in the way it used to. And so coming to terms is like, okay.

Todd Turner (19:12)
Really?

Marcus (19:37)
These are the terms and I accept them. It's out of my control now. ⁓ But I think I could have like for me, I really could have only done that after having like gotten that out of my system.

Todd Turner (19:47)
yeah, mine came a year, year and a half. remember just one day crying really hard and I don't know why I was crying. I was crying. Like it was just, think it all hit me. had other, my dad had died during that time. There's a lot of layers to it, but it was the day where I was like, okay, I'm mourning and then I'm moving on. And I remember that day. I remember it just, just bawling out of nowhere in the middle of my house. ⁓

Talk about this for a second if you would. I often, I guess I have empathy in this area. I feel sorry for people who have been through a divorce and I'm gonna say a woman just because too many times a woman who may have been a stay at home mom is now put in position of like, wait a minute, I gave up my career, raised my family and now I'm gonna get into job. so they're, not only is there...

dreams and assumptions all gone. They're just trying to survive. And I feel like sometimes they're in such survival mode, they don't get the greed mode because they don't even have time for future. They're still dealing with today's bills. And like, how do they, does it take them longer? Do they ever get through it? Can it turn into bitterness really quick? Like, I just feel like that's a separate situation that some people have to go through.

Marcus (21:02)
Yeah, you know that reminds me of the scene from Good Will Hunting when he finally gets to the point where

you know, Robin Williams characters just saying over and over again, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. And like, there's that catharsis that finally comes out and you know, some areas of, like there are different schools of thought within psychology where they're trying to define the problem and define the solution. And all of them are sort of right. And all of them are sort of wrong, but one of them has to do with like achieving catharsis, so to speak. And so catharsis is just that, like that, what we've been talking about, that deep expression of some kind of emotion that's been

Todd Turner (21:13)
Mm-hmm.

Marcus (21:35)
kind of stuff down. And for somebody who is in that situation that you just described where she's up to her eyeballs and other responsibilities and everything else, ⁓ you have to ask like, what is it costing you to keep that down? What does it cost you? Cause it's like, I have to pay these bills. Okay. Well there's this other bill that's more important right now. And like coming, again, coming to terms with like, that needs to be addressed before you can address these things very well. There's, there's sort of a,

Todd Turner (22:02)
Hmm.

Marcus (22:03)
an order of operations, right? Like think of it like triage. Triage, right? You're deciding what things need priority sooner. like, you know, you can imagine somebody in your life who's just, it's sort of, they're being busy as possible, but not really getting anywhere. And you can see it, right? Like constantly cleaning, constantly moving the kids and this and that, and always worried about, I can't stop to do this. Cause then that, and I can't sleep because then the kids will, and it's like, you're about to kill yourself.

Todd Turner (22:32)
Try it.

Marcus (22:32)
actually, like

the stress that you're allowing in your life at this point is going to kill you sooner. ⁓ And that's another bill that has to be paid. I've thought a lot about this idea of how like everything in the world has a cost and not understanding what things cost and what the price of things are is an immature state to be in. So a basic example, like I'll put my health coaching hat on here for a moment. Like everything you eat has a cost to it.

You can pay by doing the work yourself and making it at home and cleaning up afterward and having a healthy meal. Or you can pay by having brain fog and inflammation and, you know, in the guise of it being a meal deal because it's low dollar cost. Like now everything has a cost and you need to understand what that is.

Todd Turner (23:17)
No, I love that. I'm going to have to take that and ponder that because I don't like using the word always and never and everything, but I think the word everything fits right there. Everything has a cost. I think it really does. All your actions, all your relationships, your food, your time. I can't imagine anything that doesn't have a cost to it. I'm going to ponder that a little bit. Okay, so let's keep going. Shared memory, future vision, virtue domain.

Marcus (23:30)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (23:45)
⁓ I wrote down here freedom and security. You want to talk about that? I may be putting different words around your different levels or you can go to any order one. Let's hit all of them. What's another one?

Marcus (23:55)
Yeah, a certain kind of freedom. There's a huge misconception, of course, in our popular culture that once you, you know, that's like the ball and chain is probably the worst analogy you could possibly give to a marriage because it's supposed to be the opposite. It's literally supposed to be the opposite where it's thing in life which propels you toward more of who you are, not detracts from it. When the relationship is working properly, that's a mutual building up of one another, right? A mutual edification.

Think of like edifice on a building to build up. And we think like, well, you know, what's that song? Like, should I get married or stay single and stay free? Some country song. Like, I mean, I get it. Right. Like you have, again, going back to cost, there's always a trade off to things. ⁓ but the idea of freedom here is like, for example, for me, so imagine a pie chart and a pie chart that describes all of the things that go through my head in a certain day that I'm concerned about. And.

Todd Turner (24:22)
Yeah.

Marcus (24:49)
you know, for, being in the single stage, how much of that bandwidth was given to like, Oh, what do I need to do to sort of self-improve to find somebody to like satisfy this, this desire that God did give me. Um, but then like, once you have that human in your life, there's a certain bandwidth that is now freed up for you now to go and think of other things. I also like this idea of activation energy to do stuff. So what do mean by that? So a very simple example.

You know, if you live alone versus living with a roommate, your sort of activation energy to go and clean up after yourself in the kitchen is lower because then it's like, there's another set of eyeballs on this. I can't afford to just simply procrastinate. There's sort of a, extra enzymatic ⁓ thing here to sort of propel me to do this other thing. And so in a marriage that can work to both people's advantage. And so if you have a particular project that you've been working on and.

You know, you're having a hard time sort of like, you know, with homework, it's always getting started. That's the hardest part. But with another human being bearing witness to what you're up to, the activation energy required for you to go out and do it. Like if you, if you're working out with a group versus working out alone for a lot of people, knowing that that group's waiting on you at a certain time and place reduces the amount of sort of cognitive load of activation energy it requires to do it. And so you can, you can imagine how that actually contributes to your freedom because

the thing that you actually want to do that's on the other side of making the harder decision becomes easier to do. ⁓ And so not having that, you know, helpful witness in your life ⁓ is a thing that can be really tough to have to grieve.

Todd Turner (26:25)
Yeah,

I, the way I word this is, ⁓ the best thing about being single is I can do whatever I want when I want. The worst thing about being single is I can do whatever I want when I want. It's the, it's this, it's exactly what you're talking about is it's, it feels like freedom. It feels like freedom to do whatever you want. I'm like, that's horrible because then I can go do whatever I want. And I love somebody to say, Hey, let's go do this or

Marcus (26:35)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (26:48)
Remember our goal together, that's our priority and we're going to put that filter on before we make any decisions. And especially for a man, like I'll give an example, one of my friends, she's female and her personality mixed with a little bit of statistics.

She would just say, it's not as safe for a woman to travel as a man. And so she doesn't travel as much as me. And where I, you know, I go to the gas station, I get out and pump gas. I don't think about who's out here. Is that who's out there and they wait for them to leave before I pump like all the, you know, most women have to, or at least feel like they have to consider. ⁓ but yeah, as a man, if we have a good job and we're single, we're our own worst enemy sometimes.

Marcus (27:16)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (27:27)
And ⁓ I'm more, I've been in a couple of relationships since my marriage and I'm most happy when I have those restraints on. I don't know there's another way, we're guys here talking, but I'm being honest. it's having a person in my life grounds me in a way that I'm not grounded when I'm left to my own devices.

Marcus (27:29)
I've been in it for whole life.

Mm-hmm.

Right, yeah, we take for granted our need for curation. So we are much more satisfied when we're given three options and then we make one of those options than given 300 options. And then a great way of, I've heard, I think it was from Jordan Peterson who said this, he was like, you think freedom is like complete unboundedness and no boundaries at all. You think that's freedom? Okay, cool. Let's play a game. Your turn.

Todd Turner (28:07)
Right? What game are you going to play? Well, what game are you playing? You do anything. That's right. Yeah. That's 100 % right. That's a great analogy. Okay. So I wrote down freedom and security. So I guess they both sort of together, right? The safety of a relationship is broken. That's another way to put it, right? And so you're living out on the, you now realize you're living on the higher wire.

Marcus (28:08)
Like you can do anything. You can do anything. There no rules.

Todd Turner (28:31)
at all alone and that is not an easy pill to swallow, especially for different personality types. There's certain personality types that may crave that and there's others who it crushes. I would imagine I don't I have one where I sort of. I thought I was going to enjoy it more than I was. I thought it was now that I'm further down the road. I realized yeah, this is not good for me. Not good for me to be now. Now when I read Genesis, I'm like, yeah, it's not good for.

at him to be alone. like, yeah, I agree.

Marcus (29:00)
Yeah.

And that kind of tees up another one of these areas. I don't know if this word exactly is in the dictionary, but I think it works. So the word is neededness. Neededness. You need to be needed. So where are you needed in your life? I have, I've worked with a client in the past who was clinically depressed. And if you've ever been with somebody who's clinically depressed in life, their sense of being needed is zero. like where, where's my worth? Where's my value? It's a shame that we use the word retirement.

Todd Turner (29:08)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Marcus (29:27)
to describe like being done with your work. Like what's retire mean? Retire is like those airplanes out in the desert that are never flown anymore. That's not like, why is that our objective? I'm gonna, I can't wait for retirement. I'm gonna be put out of service. Bro, that's death. Like we need to be needed by other people. Not like there's a fine line here between being needed and being in a codependent relationship, which we can talk about more if we want to. ⁓ But notwithstanding, like there's,

Todd Turner (29:35)
That's right.

That's right. That's right.

Right. Yep.

Marcus (29:56)
The world needs what you have. you have, wherever you are, there's like, everybody has the proverbial Ikigai, right? It's that Japanese word that describes the intersection of what's needed in the world, what you're good at, what you can get paid for, that kind of thing. What you're passionate about. Basically, it's like the intersection of those four things. Everybody has that at some level. to, know, some people can get their need for neededness in a single relationship and you can understand how that's kind of fragile. And you might say like, well, my marriage is rock solid.

You know, it's this, this is a domain where I can fully exercise my neededness and maybe it's not as rock solid as he thought. So where are you relevant anymore after that? Where are you cultivating togetherness after that? And so I think that's why it's so important that when you're starting to kind of rebuild to maybe have another relationship in the future, you have to get really good at being single and having your own life where all of these other things that you were grieving are now being met. And it's like.

Imagine all the things that we're talking about. Another one we didn't mention was like half of your social network is gone. ⁓ Imagine if all of these things, now you being single are able to cultivate in your own life and you have all of that going for you and would only serve to be amplified by an ex relationship not depended on in the next relationship, man, you're much better set up. And I would imagine if you're like me at all, that you didn't necessarily have many of those things ahead of that first relationship.

Todd Turner (31:21)
No, that's exactly right is okay. Yeah, you're a hundred percent. I'm going to add something to here and it's repeating what I said 20 minutes ago. And that is there is this phenomenon of emptiness thing that is eerily the same as divorce. And that is you, your common thing is your kids. So it's like, Oh, that's, that's our hobby. That's where I get my need from. So even if the husband wife relationship isn't good, the father, the father kid, the mother kid.

is good and it sometimes masks as a healthy relationship until it's gone. And then you look up and you're like, who's this person? Who am I? We don't even have anything in common, but those kids, which is why the divorce rate goes high at, you know, when kids start graduating. ⁓ But when they both happen at once, when you lose kids and your divorce, you know, your spouse at the same time, it's a double kick of who, who are you where if that person doesn't even, they don't need me.

Marcus (32:00)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (32:15)
I don't even know if I like what I see in the mirror anymore. And it's a big, this is why it cracks me up when I hear people get divorced and they start dating really, really fast. Cause in their mind, I want a spouse, I had one, that one didn't work. So let me just go get one that works. And it's like, what a horrible way to think. ⁓

Marcus (32:25)
What's the common denominator

there buddy, you know, what like what? Mm-hmm ⁓

Todd Turner (32:37)
Yeah, the eye. Yeah, yeah.

No, it's very interesting. Like I love that you're identifying the things, the litmus test, if you will, to see if you're healthy because it's not just I got to get over the divorce. I got to get over that person. Everything you're mentioning are little things that you ought to just take a pen to paper on and say, let me look at this. How am I doing here? How am I scoring here? What are the steps? I'm assuming this is what you do in your course, right? You help people through these.

Marcus (32:49)
I got you.

Todd Turner (33:05)
these identify them and help them through each one. that is that correct?

Marcus (33:08)
Yeah, the course follows kind of a hero's journey, if you will, where, you know, you kind of start out with like, you ever see those movies where it's like, yep, that's me. I bet you're wondering how I got myself into this situation. And like, it's no wonder that's a trope in movies because how many times do we have that moment in life? was like, what series of decisions did I make in life to lead myself here? ⁓ had more than one of those in the military. ⁓ know, you're just like, ⁓ you know, ⁓ some of the training that we did in Fort Benning where.

we would be out doing land nav or something, and then it would just be pouring rain and you're hungry and you're tired and you're away from civilization while your friends are watching the football game back on the campus. And you just have that moment where it's like, ⁓ what have I done? But yeah, but you know, that's, that's always make the best memories. Like, but, ⁓ you know, another thing that what you mentioned before about like the empty nesting phenomena is it reminds me of like a ⁓ survival axiom, if you will, which is

Todd Turner (33:51)
I said yes to what, Liv?

Marcus (34:06)
One is none, two is one. So the idea there is how can I build redundancy? Like imagine somebody who's doing a hike on the PCT, who's going for a very long time. And so the idea is like, I need to optimize between weight on my pack and functionality of my tools. So can I have one tool that does more than one job? ⁓ Or, you know, what's my backup in case my light goes out? Do I have a second light?

And so it's just, it's sort of a fact of life that your first one is probably going to go away or fail at some point. Like, you know, speaking of the movie tropes, there's the first Iron Man, right? He has like better suit died or crashed or whatever. And so he had to go back to the original one. Like how many times do you see that in hero movies too? Like, no, my, my first plan didn't go accordingly. And now I have to go revert to like back to just me or like, you know, some action sequence was like both.

You know, I'm laughing because it's like how many movies do exactly the same thing? Like when both, you know, the villain and the hero are out of ammo, they throw the guns away, it's like, okay, fisticuffs, no. Yeah, yeah, so one is none, two is one. What's the practical application of that? Well, when it comes to identity, knowing who you are without that person is so important. so the one is none thing would be, we do everything together. Like, we go out to eat together all the time. We do all of our activities.

Todd Turner (35:08)
I'm never gonna fight again. That's right.

Marcus (35:28)
Hmm, bro. That's a bad idea. Like I'm just gonna say it was a bad idea. Um, you need to have your own little thing that's yours that you enjoy and she does too. Um, and that's like, need to give each other space to go and do those things. That's very healthy. It's very helpful. Cause then, you know, God forbid if he or she goes away for one reason or another, you still have like all of this, all of these things that you can, you know, be that are relevant to you that have purpose and meaning beyond it. Um, you know, I think a marriage should not,

Todd Turner (35:40)
Yeah.

Marcus (35:57)
you know, hot take here. I don't think a marriage should be an end of it in itself, or it's like my greatest purpose in life is doing this marriage. Is it because you're not going to be married in the kingdom? That's what it says. ⁓ Your marriage should propel your kingdom work, not just be your kingdom work. It should be sort of like the base camp that prepares you to go hike the mountain. ⁓ In my view, I think that's a very powerful thing because then

The hiking the mountain thing is still going to be there regardless of what sort of happens with the marriage. ⁓ And I think we can easily flip those things around. I mean, I have, I had to learn that lesson.

Todd Turner (36:33)
a hundred percent. I was, as you're talking here, I was thinking about a story that happened with me and my kids is once I don't think they were all full adults. I think one or two of them were over the age of 18, but I pulled all my kids together and I apologized to them. And I was trying to teach them a life lesson that I had learned, just learned. And it was, I thought I was being a super dad by being at

all your practices and all your games and my friends that would go play golf or whatever and internally I'll be like guys okay you're out playing golf like your kid like why what are you doing you know and then there's some men that would go jogging during practice and I was like dude like or during a game or something you know and I remember looking down on him and I was like how old were I realize

No, like it's the airplane mass deal. It's like, if I'm not healthy, you're not, if I'm not healthy, you're not going to be healthy. And so I was pouring everything into being a good dad, a good husband. And I realized I was neglecting myself, which would have made me a better dad and a better husband. And I had to apologize for it because I'd like, don't, don't look at me as a role model. was not doing a good job, even though I pretended I thought I was, I authentically thought I was doing the best for my kids by being everywhere all the time.

Marcus (37:23)
Mm-hmm.

everywhere all the

time.

Todd Turner (37:46)
And I realized what I thought was selfish was actually not selfish. It was actually where I should have been pouring way more energy.

Marcus (37:52)
Right. And then it becomes performative and it can almost be a form of pride. Look how much I'm sacrificing for the children. ⁓ I was just having a conversation yesterday with some friends about how one of the personality domains that special forces, know, special operations forces to include like Green Berets, Navy Seals, the personality traits that they look for or, you know, screen for ⁓ or sort of childhood background, they found that

Todd Turner (38:00)
100 percent.

Marcus (38:21)
Kids who had like a more tumultuous childhood tended to be better operators. And so I half jokingly said like, well, what's the implication there for parents? ⁓ If nothing, you know, maybe not quite boy named Sue situation, but maybe not totally far from it. Like, Hey kid, go get your own whatever. Like, you know, don't do for them what they can do for themselves most of the time.

Todd Turner (38:29)
I'm gonna toughen you up,

Yeah.

Yeah, no, well, luckily for me, I already had that. was, you know, my dad used to wake us up at six in the morning on Saturdays. We're like, why? And he goes, because we don't, we're not sleeping in. Like, well, what are we doing? I don't know, but we're not sleeping in. Yeah, you're not going to sleep. Like get up, do something, you know, find something to do and do it. You don't get to lay in bed anymore. That was the way I grew up. ⁓ Okay. So, but can you just get a little detailed in the course? Cause we were going there and then we got signed track, but

Marcus (38:56)
Whatever you want, but not sleep.

Todd Turner (39:12)
Is that part of what the course is, is going through and helping people identify issues that are making them unhealthy, preparing them for a healthy self, which will prepare them for a healthy next relationship, right? And then helping them find a new lighthouse, a new vision, because all their old visions are gone. Am I correct there?

Marcus (39:33)
Yeah, so the, talked earlier about how there are a bunch of different sort of approaches to therapy and in the clinical domain, right? And so I think it's like, they're up to 13 now, right? You have the classic psychoanalysis, you've got, you know, Carl Rogers, human centered, I'm not gonna get into the details, but again, it's defining what exactly is wrong and how do we fix it? How do we help as, you know, as someone who's just another human and not God. One of the, like something that's been,

foundational to me is helping people connect to stories. So this it's a very strange thing if you stop to think about like why do humans get attracted to stories and why do we get so upset when a story is ruined? Right Star Wars episode one it was so like it you know it made so many people mad because it strayed from like the story that they were expecting and so what's the deal with that? Well it's because you know in the I'm gonna paraphrase Carl Jung here where he's like

everyone occupies a myth and it can be better to know, it might be good to know what myth you're a part of because perhaps you're on the road to a tragedy and you'd prefer it not to be. So by understanding it's sort of like when you go to a theme park and you see the you are here mark, then it's like, oh, okay, now that I know where I am, I know what to do next. So the hero's journey is a pattern that there are several story patterns that are.

Different movies do different ones, but this is sort of like the the monomyth in the words of Joseph Campbell and so briefly It's like you have the ordinary world meaning like you're ⁓ You can apply this by the way over the course of a single day a season. It's like fractal, right? So it works on a lot of levels So the ordinary world in this case would be like, okay, I'm in this relationship. It's known territory I'm in I'm in the Shire right? I haven't like it's all sort of ⁓ Then there's the call to adventure

that you initially refuse, which we've actually already been talking about this, right? So this is, even this conversation is its own pattern. The call to adventure would be, you're out of that marriage now. And then the refusal is like, no, I'm gonna cling to this. Bro, I was separated 18 months before I like, and then she finally took the action. That was, it was like a mercy killing on her part. That was actually a favor that she did for me. ⁓ Cause I had such a hard, I was refusing the call, man. Like I was like,

Todd Turner (41:33)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ You

Marcus (41:48)
Surely like I'm gonna hold on to this at all and there's like no sign that this is not a hosai story for me Right where he was called by God to like stay with the prostitute Now maybe some people are called that way but anyway for me it was like I'm refusing to and so finally at last I accepted the new journey into unknown territory, which is me divorced right and like among my family It's very rare and like that's a it's just like of all my cousins of all of my near

you know, no one had been divorced. ⁓ and so like that was the unknown territory that I had to go explore. Then there's the descent into the abyss. And that's when you're deeply grieving when things all seem upside down, where like if you've seen stranger things, there's like the upside down, right? It's like a world that's like similar, but completely opposite. And so what, what do you encounter there while you encounter monsters? What's a monster?

So this is one of the chapters in the course is describing like, what's the deal with monsters? Are dragons real? know, a monster is a creature that has a confused identity. Frankenstein's monster is a great example. So it's pieced together by all of these different things that don't quite form a coherent whole. Or a monster can be like a giant where it's too much of one thing and not enough of another. There's a great podcast by Jonathan Pagio called the symbolic world and a book called

the language of creation, think, by his brother Machu-Pacho. This is kind of where I'm getting a lot of this, but it's explaining the symbolism in these stories and how they relate to your life. So a monster, how do you fight a monster? Well, there are a couple of different ways, but well, you can get into it in the chapter if you're interested, but the idea of the monster is like, it's part of the deal. It's the unknown thing that you don't know how quite to describe. Like monsters don't really have an identity. And so that's sort of your...

Confronting a reality where the old identity has to go away. So it's confused for a little bit ⁓ Are one of the biggest social ills right now is confused identity, right? I I don't know how I relate to things going back to purpose and meaning I don't know how I'm what what matters to me and how do I matter to other people if I don't know who I am so Encountering that and dealing with it is the encounter with that monster ⁓ and you you talked a bit about how the

Todd Turner (43:56)
Mm-hmm.

Marcus (44:05)
ability to speak forth what is happening in your life is a way to start to order things. And that's exactly right. You remember in the book of Revelation, what comes out of Jesus's mouth is a sword. What's a sword good for? Fighting dragons, I'd reckon, right? So speech and putting things in order with your speech, whatever that looks like, is the weapon to fight these monsters. And so we get into detail of what that looks like.

Todd Turner (44:11)
.

Yeah.

This is interesting because there's so many loops here in our conversation because it's sort of like I was feeling empty for the woman who's so has to go pay bills and just go work. I don't have a lot of empathy for the person who goes out and starts dating before they put in this work because it's like you're awake. You're not fighting the monster. You're over here. You're doing something different while there's a monster in the room and you're not even identifying it. You don't know how to attack it. You're saying I'm numbing.

Which is another another phenomenon of men numb a little different than women numb and but there's a lot of numbing and it can be drugs. could be sex. could be pornography. It could be drinking. It could be dating. It could be name your list, but there's probably some evidence of which ones people different personality types go for all the while the monsters over here getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and then you take that monster into the next relationship with you. If you don't slay him before you get there.

Marcus (45:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, pain is meant to be felt, for the most part. We can think of exceptions in surgeries, but for the most part, pain is meant to be felt. And you have to consider too, if somebody were to demonstrate interest in you romantically, and then you found out like, I was married last week, but we just got a divorce, like, ⁓

Todd Turner (45:30)
That's right.

I thought we had the one

year rule, right? It's like, yeah, if somebody's dating you very fast and there's not some, I've heard of a couple of very oddball exceptions, there's something wrong. There's just something wrong. Like, why would you even attempt to do that? And let you don't have your lens on, right? If you feel like I'm fine. The line I always laugh at internally is, well, our relationship's been over for years. We just signed the paperwork recently.

I'm like, yeah, that's not true. Just not true. mean, ish. I mean, I guess once again, there are a few exceptions, but yeah, when you're finally, when it's signed and you've moved on, all these things, all the things you just mentioned are still happening. They're still in the room and they didn't get fixed while y'all were sleeping on the offsides of the house. Yeah, totally.

Marcus (46:10)
Hmm

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's when, when you go from one to another like that, it's a clear sign of co-dependence, right? Which is, ⁓ there's, it's sort of a pernicious thing that can slip in very easily where the, so this idea of co-dependence is you're outsourcing your sense of self to another person perpetually. So someone who's in serial relationships doesn't have a relationship with themselves. Really not a healthy one.

And so if you only know yourself by being in a relationship with another human, we're misguided. However, if you only know yourself by being in relationship with God, that's where that belongs. So the drive itself for co-dependence, if you would, is not bad. It's only bad if it's been found in another human, right? I do want to be co-dependent on God. That's not a disorder anymore. That's like proper order. That is order, right?

Todd Turner (47:05)
Yeah.

Marcus (47:20)
I find my order in life when I'm codependent on God for everything. When I realize there's not a thing in the world that I could do if it wasn't a result of my Creator planning it that way.

Todd Turner (47:30)
I have a dear friend right now who just recently went through something and they're there really, it's them and God right now. And we just said, it's just so obvious when you say it, cause God's screaming at us. You know, got to get this right. The vertical before the horizontal. Like how do you love other people till you love God? Like you've got to have that down, right? And then it will permeate this way. But if you start this way and then they're like, let me get this down and then everything will be all right here. It's like, no, doesn't work that way. It's backwards. And so what a great time.

when you're crushed, I'll use the word trauma after the divorce. What a great time to just nasal gave a little bit, look up, get this right, ask God to, I actually just pray, is why part of the reason I have this podcast is like, not everybody has a good wise friend. Not everybody does. And sometimes you have to go extracurricular places to find some wisdom.

Marcus (48:16)
everybody does. ⁓

Todd Turner (48:22)
And you you'd like to think you can always go to your pastor, but here's just the truth. Christians that are listening, they know that most of their pastors never went through a divorce. They just, it's the head tap. And so you've got to go somewhere where you can get some wisdom. And that's why courses like yours, that's why this podcast exists is people need a place to help them to know what to do, what to do next. It's not just survive. they're, they don't even know. I have people who are

Marcus (48:30)
They just, it's the head path. And so you gotta go somewhere where you need to listen. And that's why courses like yours, or by the Pride Caps exist, is people need a place to hook them to know what to do, what to do next. It's not just survive, like they don't even know, I have people who

are three, five, seven, 10 years past their divorce, they're still broken. I don't like using that word, but they're still broken. And I don't think they wanna be broken.

Todd Turner (48:48)
three, five, seven, 10 years past their divorce, they're still broken. And I don't like using that word, but they're still broken. And I don't think they want to be broken.

They don't even know how to, they're just, they're just living. They're existing and they're not happy. And they know they're not happy, but they don't know what to do.

Marcus (48:59)
They don't even know how to assert it. And they're not talking. They know they're not talking.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I structured the course the way I did. And it was, it was almost an extension of the first book I wrote like four years ago where for me, I really enjoy writing and making sense of things works for me when I, when I write it down. And then I wrote so much, a buddy of mine was like, why don't you publish that? And so that's what I ended up doing.

And so what I would encourage the listeners here is that it's, this is a season of navigation is probably the best way to put it. Like you are navigating something and there are things that you need to avoid. There are things that you need to go toward and the, the map is a story. The map is a story and understanding how stories work can help you to see, am here. Here's what to expect. One of the, the course ⁓ modules chapters is.

labeled they're going to take you. And that this is from the movie scene from Taken, right? It was when I first saw that scene, I was really confused because at first I was like, is the dad in on it? Like, is he is that like, no, that's not what it meant. It was like, I need to tell my daughter what's about to happen so she can have a little bit of expectation as bad as it is. Like, you can't think of anything worse of a young woman getting kidnapped into, you know, human trafficking. But you need to know they're about to take you.

Todd Turner (49:56)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. It's in my very first episode. I say I want people to know the landmines that are going to avoid stepping on and how do I know where they are? I've stepped on them. That's all I know. And so I want to share them with you. So the guy behind me says, you know, you need to deal with this. You need to deal with this. You need to deal with this. Trust me. Don't date. You're going to want to date. Here's all the reasons you want to date. Let's identify it. And then let me just scream to you, don't.

Now then, half you are going to ignore me. So let's talk about that now. If you're going to do it, do it this way. So yeah, that's, it's really interesting. You and I both, talked about this the other day. We both have divorce courses. You know, this podcast, if you made one would not be exactly like this. There's just so many different personality types. There's so many people at different places on their journey.

and the Lord's smart and he always puts the right people in the right people's path. So I hope whoever's listening to you today and you're my first male guest. I always have female guests or I talk alone. So it's been nice to have a sort of guy talk here. I hope more guys listen because you know we get statistics on YouTube but the YouTube is high men like way high more than the podcast. It's just very interesting. Don't know why but I hope there's a man here today who like they hear this because

Marcus (51:11)
and you're

I hope more guys ⁓

It's tried men. Way higher than the podcast. It's very interesting. I know why. But I hope there's a man here today who'd like to hear this.

We're sort of seeing the first one to say we doubted ourselves that John Wayne's book of root traps, the lone wolf mentality that we treat here in America. And that's not right. It's not biblical in any way. And I need help. And I love, I just wrote a book for men.

Todd Turner (51:33)
We're sort of some of the first ones to say we got it ourselves that John Wayne, Colloquial Bootstraps, the lone wolf mentality that we've created here in America. And that's not right. It's not biblical in any way. And men need help. And I love helping. I just wrote a book for men,

but the women buy the women's workbook. The men most look pretty much dope. I don't know what that is, but I'm screaming if you're listening.

Marcus (51:52)
Yeah, absolutely so

Todd Turner (51:59)
You know, go check out Marcus's course, like go put in the work because you're doing your future self. If you have kids, you're doing your kids a giant service and you're doing any spouse that you may enter a new covenant with. You're doing them a giant favor by putting in the work right now. You want to add anything to that, Marcus, before we close out.

Marcus (52:20)
The final part of the hero's journey, see this is how it works, we're doing it in real time here, we're coming to a close, is that you come back to the ordinary world, but completely different. I think it was T.S. Eliot who says, the end of our wanderings will be to come back to where we first started and know it for the first time. Like it gives me goosebumps even to say that, you get back to where, ⁓ yeah, so the trope is you have the magical elixir.

Todd Turner (52:37)
Mm-hmm.

Marcus (52:47)
that you can now share with the rest of your society. And that's symbolic for your story, right? It's what we're literally doing right now is like we're sharing the elixirs that we each got through having progressed through that. And back to the ordinary world is back to that place where it's like, okay, I have a new vision. I know where I'm going. I have a certain level of maturity now that I know where my dependence is coming from. I have perspective now where things are never as easy as I thought, but now that's okay. I have

Like maybe you have an unshakable confidence now where like if you've been through that, your set point of what difficult is has been completely remade. So how much more powerful could you be in future situations where others are freaking out and they're going to see you and rely on you for, ⁓ that's the rock in my life. He or she has been through this thing. And if I'm going, you know, as the friend, let's say like I'm going through a death of a loved one or whatever it is, like you now are that hero who's finished that journey.

who has an elixir to help that person through something that they never thought possible. so, you know, ultimately in this life outside the garden, what else can you hope for? Like that is the Christian walk.

Todd Turner (53:55)
That's my thing is I know some answers you will not see to the other side of heaven. God doesn't owe us answers for everything here, but it is nice. It's a blessing when God lets you see that your pain causes good somewhere. And so I hope for that too. I hope that there's any good that comes out of my failed marriage and the ripple effect of sin throughout it all.

Marcus (54:11)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (54:20)
is that I can journey with somebody else and either prevent it or walk them through it. And that gives me a little bit of joy.

Marcus (54:27)
Yeah. And

even CS Lewis talks about this, how the way that time works, like if God works all things for good, you know, you got to be careful by like just saying that to somebody who's in the thick of it. Cause it's like, that's not really helpful, but let's, know, from a 10,000 foot view, if that's actually true, if you actually believe that the none of it ends up being bad, like time works backwards to make that only good, which is kind of awesome.

Todd Turner (54:51)
Yeah.

No, it's kind of awesome. I literally had dinner with somebody this week and we were talking about that, about my brain. This is a total derail and I should, I should shut up. We should have landed the plane beautifully, but I'm going to, I'm going to go off for a second. We got, we got, we got some turbulence before we hit it, but it's just this idea of like injustice on this side of the earth. And then God saying, but it's for good. It was like, how

Marcus (55:03)
We got a little bit of turbulence, we're going to make it.

Todd Turner (55:16)
Can the child be born into this situation and these horrible things happen? dies. He may not even go to heaven. And then we're in heaven saying, it was all good. It's like, how? then all of, we just, no matter what, where our conversation went for 20 minutes, we landed at what the end of Ecclesiastes, we landed the smartest man on the earth who pondered it all. Trust and obey, trust and obey. There's your only answer. Just you have a God who's telling you.

He shows you how awesome he is. tells you he's loved. He tells you he's just, and he says, trust me and obey me. And, you know, and so just the simple, the simple ace of spades over all this is like, we are called. He calls us into this relationship with him. And we're down here. If you're listening to this, it's because you went through a divorce. You're struggling right now. You wouldn't even be taking the time to listen to this. And God's the God of the universe who loves you.

Marcus (55:48)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (56:09)
wants to pour into you and you're in a hard spot and you may not be getting out of it through your church. The people who are to your right and your left just may not be able to walk this journey. Maybe Marcus can do that for you. That's my hope. So brother, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time today. And I want to ponder some of this because it may have some shoot off episodes for us later. I would really like that. Thank you very much.

Marcus (56:22)
Thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time today. And I want to ponder some more specific things.

I love it. I really appreciate your time today, Todd.