Island CEO Mike Fey discusses unmanaged devices and the enterprise browser as the cloud’s successor to Data Loss Prevention (DLP). Paul and Mike discuss how Island’s browser is disrupting the Virtual Desktop Infrastructure (VDI), and the Cloud Access Security Broker (CASB) industries. Paul and Mike debate whether these new browsers can create a secure edge to the cloud by themselves, or not.
Mike explains how Microsoft and Google teaming up on the Chromium open source code base allows Island to easily deploy across any device, and how the web browser can be seen as its own operating system. Mike also explains the central controls Island customers get, including redacting sensitive data onscreen, and geographic regulatory controls.
Check out Island.io to learn more about their enterprise browser, or reach them on Twitter @island_io. Mike Fey can be found on LinkedIn.com/in/michaelfey.
Don’t forget to also watch Episode 2 where startup advisor and Ashland CISO Bob Schuetter discuss hearing Island’s initial startup pitch in 2020, and his experience as a customer.
Send feedback to host Paul Shomo @ShomoBits or LinkedIn.com/in/paulshomo.
Island CEO Mike Fey discusses unmanaged devices and the enterprise browser as the cloud’s successor to Data Loss Prevention (DLP). Paul and Mike discuss how Island’s browser is disrupting the Virtual Desktop Infrastructure (VDI), and the Cloud Access Security Broker (CASB) industries. Paul and Mike debate whether these new browsers can create a secure edge to the cloud by themselves, or not.
Mike explains how Microsoft and Google teaming up on the Chromium open source code base allows Island to easily deploy across any device, and how the web browser can be seen as its own operating system. Mike also explains the central controls Island customers get, including redacting sensitive data onscreen, and geographic regulatory controls.
Check out Island.io to learn more about their enterprise browser, or reach them on Twitter @island_io. Mike Fey can be found on LinkedIn.com/in/michaelfey.
Don’t forget to also watch Episode 2 where startup advisor and Ashland CISO Bob Schuetter discuss hearing Island’s initial startup pitch in 2020, and his experience as a customer.
Send feedback to host Paul Shomo @ShomoBits or LinkedIn.com/in/paulshomo.
You either have to commit to a massive program or acceptable losses has been a general theory. And there's something in between, control the last mile allows you to start to segment off where data loss is even possible. So let's say I've got an amazing SaaS property. I have a large Salesforce. And my customer data sits in Salesforce.com. Well, I can set it up so no data can leave Salesforce.com. Which takes that massive group of users out of my DLP you know concerned thought process. The genealogy of innovation is the cybersecurity startup and emerging tech podcast. I'll interview top entrepreneurs, startup advising cisos, venture capitalists, and more. The startup world is full of innovative minds. This is the place to explore new threats, new approaches to cybersecurity, and more importantly, attack surfaces that arise as technology regulation and business evolve. Welcome to the genealogy of innovation. I'm Paul shomo. Start out by introducing yourself? Sure. Michael Faye, a cofounder and CEO of island dot IO. Well, thank you for coming on the show and you ran blue code, which was a major network security vendor. Then you were acquired by semantic, which you ended up kind of taking over. So you're really no stranger to the problems of networking cloud security. You want to tell us a little bit about your background? Sure you know. I entered in cybersecurity via McAfee on the presale side, worked with a great group of people you know, amazing people like Joe Sexton, David dewalt, George Kurtz, Stewart McClure, Brian kenyon, just this massive list of phenomenal individuals. So I got to learn the ropes of cybersecurity. I worked my way up to CTO, but was very interested in the business and moved over to be GM of that enterprise business. We got acquired by Intel. It was an amazing journey at the time. Then moved over to blue code as presidential or worked with Greg Clark, where we were really rethought how that business was working and grew that substantially from a couple of different acquisitions by different PE firms and finally bought by Symantec. And part of that agreement was that Greg and I would run Symantec where we came in and kind of had to restructure some tech after the veritas break off and get that business back on its journey. So yeah, about 20 years now, you know, kind of big enterprise security, lots of products, lots of spaces. I'd actually retire from the space. And that was done. I didn't want to create the next best mousetrap on things I had sold for the last 20 years. But my partner, Dan amiga, brought me this idea of the enterprise browser. And it was really network security focused at the time. But as we debated it out, we saw, my goodness, this has impact on so many things. And I just had to be a part of it. So I actually turned it down at first, and then calling back a couple of weeks later and said, you know, I think I might have missed up something here you know. Do you still want to partner? And graciously, he said yes. And three weeks later, we had our first 20 million in funding and we're off and rocking. So obviously, because you came from blue code, so we had to give this long background. You really, more than most people understand the weaknesses of past product categories and approaches. Could you could you possibly summarize what is the state of data loss prevention in the cloud as far as a broad problem? Like where do you feel we are right now? Yeah you know. Data loss prevention is such a challenging thing. I mean, when I first interacted with it, it was host DLP, right? A little agent installed on the host. And we had to just watch your USB, watch the secured storage, and maybe email. And that was above me on what was possible. The rules we had to write, the teams that had to investigate all the false positives, all of that stuff. But what you couldn't deny was the data that was being captured in what was leaving the organizations. So it was a problem that needed an answer regardless of the complexity. It had to be addressed. And so organizations have done that. But you know I'm sitting here staring at my Mac screen. I don't think there's an icon on that. They can't move data now, right? You know, I could probably should be a 5 year Spotify for spent long enough in it. And so the complexity of that is just gotten harder and harder as we've gotten more nimble as we've gotten easier to work with as we've got more productive. So I think you know when you think about truly watching data, you either have to commit to a massive program or acceptable losses has been the general theory. And there's something in between, control the last mile allows you to start to segment off where data loss is even possible. So let's say I've got an amazing SaaS property. I have a large Salesforce. And my customer data sits in Salesforce.com. Well, I can set it up so no data can leave Salesforce.com, which takes that massive group of users out of my DLP you know concern thought process. And if you remove a call center out, if you remove a sales team out, if you remove a developer community out, all of a sudden, when you leave the security teams with, it's a very approachable problem. And that's what things are evolving to. It's not that we don't need what we've done in the past. It's not that what we did was wrong. We had to do it. It just started to become a complexity problem that just was too expensive to achieve success on. That's interesting you described it that way because data loss prevention, I mean, generally it's been considered that it didn't achieve its stated goals. And frankly, the acronym data loss prevention, that it implies an incredibly large lift, right? But we still deploy it, like you said, we use it. When you think about end users, one thing that's very new for me is unmanaged devices and new for everybody, but how big of a problem are unmanaged devices connecting to your customers cloud assets? Oh, I think it's an epic problem that in the most aggressively well funded organizations cost them tens of millions of dollars a year just to try to rearchitect the way the Internet works. Then in a modern younger company, it's just not an option. It just is. You don't get a debate. I'll give you an example. Just trying to say, I want to make sure my 20 most important SaaS applications can only connect to my devices as a corporation. That will have me doing network ninja affair to the tune of a lot of expense because the assassins were meant to be achieved everywhere. They're meant to be accessed by everything. That's their origin. That's their design. And so when we say, no, no, we're going to restrict that. Now you're back hauling traffic. You're doing lots of different IP syncing and tunneling and all of this stuff. That gets really, really difficult. And then you take a newer organization where they're embracing self IT and they're looking at BYOD, not as a end user preference, but as a way to segment off users. And say, you know what? You're a knowledge worker. You're not touching the data that makes my company live or die. Why should I have you on that same network? So they want to keep you off. So you solve things like BYOD grow, and obviously COVID helped that immensely, too. But you also saw ZTNA connections, and you saw these direct connections to get rid of the VPN because we didn't want to join an endpoint to our network. We just wanted to connect to an app. So you start to see this stuff emerged. So at the end of the day, BYOD, self IT, unmanaged devices for many industries is just a thing. And even the most stringent ones end up taking that philosophy eventually because of contractors and third party access. You know, when a large bank, let's say, third party work with them. You have to think of that as a BYOD device because it's the same thing. It's an unconfigured device coming into my environment. It might be configured by another company. But with another set of standards and other set of responsibilities. And the variance of, say, an IT vendor's commitment to cybersecurity. Versus a banks versus a retailer. They're night and day. And not calling anybody out is more than another, but what they worry about is very, very different. And so you see these companies, these healthcare organizations are a great one. We just did a very large transaction with a phenomenal healthcare company. And every doctor, every outside service, they're all contractors. But it's that hospital change that gets sued when they lose data. It's those patients that get impacted. So they want to have the availability to the best doctors, but the best doctors aren't sitting on corporate issued machines. They're working for 5 or 6 different hospital environments. So how do they engage like that? So this idea of unmanaged devices is a very real thing, even in those hardened areas. And then the more younger progressive companies, it's just the way. Yeah, so third party risk, I think, is the broader umbrella that is really the change the way institutions work and our culture, like you're saying, and the way our IT is decentralized, that bring all the unmanaged devices on. That's a great point. Very difficult problem to solve. But before we kind of like unveil a way to solve it, I want to talk about one of the big things that happened in the web browser market. So when I first heard about secure enterprise browsers last year, my first thought was that's crazy from an engineering resource perspective. I come from an engineering background too. I'm going to CTO, but for me, entering in the browser wars for a startup with Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, it seems suicidal. But I had noticed that Microsoft moved on to Google's open-source chromium codebase in 2019. Could you help us understand the implications of two of the Titans of the cloud being on the same browser code base? Yeah. You know, we hear a lot. Why didn't I figure that idea when you people hear about enterprise browser? Why not think of that? In reality, before that convergence on that open-source project, there was nothing to think about in my opinion. I share with you. If I had to go and start from the ground level, building a browser that you would trust to render your thousands of applications the same as pro, you would say, Noah, can't do that. Just be too expensive. I want to get you there. But when the open-source project got so strong and too giants went on. And it was actually pretty strong even before Microsoft went on it, but when the two giants went on it, now it's easy for a customer to understand that I'm using a chromium browser, not edge, not chrome, chromium. And I'm using Microsoft implementation. I'm using chrome's implementation or islands implementation. And that opened up the door for us not to have to go into a giant retest because we literally do not change the code of the rendering. Now, now that that open-source project is out there to be Frank, if the open-source project disappeared, we'd all still continue on just fine. But it opened the door for it. And you know the reality is I never saw this as a browser war thing. Microsoft still makes every dollar they used to make. We don't take anything from them. Google does the same thing. We didn't take their search or anywhere else they make it. We really are just integrating that back into the enterprise to, if you will, displace complete simplify other solutions. But yeah, the open-source chromium project is very important. It is an outrageously mature project. It is very well done. I continue to be amazed at how steady and how complete that project is. My cofounder worked with it over a decade before we started the company you know. He had been on it on different versions and finally the chromium brewed. That helped out immensely. We know exactly what we're getting into. But yeah, that open-sourcing. If you think about the design of a browser, the browser has been if you step back and say, what if I was the architect? Is modular by nature? You're going to have a rendering engine. And then you're going to have extensions that do different things. You have password. And so when you try to integrate with that, it is easy to build your part of the solution on the periphery and not have to go in and fundamentally change the way the core browser works, showing a web page, rendering that page, navigating networking. These are all things we rely on and don't have to reinvent. So it is very possible to build your own browser with unlimited set of resources, maintain the cadence of security updates and everything else that matches all the big guys at this point. Thanks to that open-source project. It is very meaningful. It's pretty interesting. If you look at the history of technology is when something becomes a fundamental part of the infrastructure, a lot of times it becomes open-source and it stays that way. And the browser, we hadn't you didn't necessarily think of it as a pillar of IT infrastructure, but it connects to the cloud on premise. So it really is. Yeah. It's so funny. It's an operating system. Yeah. You don't have a you know, I know you interview a lot of younger companies. None of them are writing to anything but acromion browser because it gets you everywhere but iOS. It gets you onto the Linux and MacBooks and PCs and Chromebooks. I mean, it gets you everywhere. So you build there and then you take a web kit, you get to iOS and boom, you've got a massive amount of real estate covered. And it's a complete environment. So that operating system is really interesting. If you went to one of these high end organizations and you said, tell me any other important pieces of software you don't have a support contract for. That you don't have a relationship with your vendor, that you can't call and get improvements when you need it, like you have notion. Most people say, oh, I'm not even allowed to do that. That's actually in my soc two cert, or it's in this, or it's in that. Yet there's an entire operating system that runs the whole company on that there's no connection back to. And that was one of the big realizations. We got in, because I will tell you, if we've put in 5000 features into the product, at least 2000 big customer driven. Things they needed. Things that if we did it, they would simplify their world or improve its functionality. And listening to them and being able to deliver that forum is what's really creating this market. Well, let's dive into that the browser is an operating system a little bit more. So the browser, when you're looking at the web, essentially a lot of web client code has gone down into the browser and it's running into that environment. And that's sandboxed away from the operating system. So it's like away from Windows or macOS or Linux. So what you're saying is the browser is like an operating system inside of our laptop, our desktop, our host, OS that's what you mean? Yeah. I mean, I'm old enough to know this is your most familiar listeners aren't, but you know when we first got windows, dos was the real OS, windows sat on top of it, right? And we wrote our code to Windows. And that made our lives a lot easier, because right at the dos was tricky. And we got a lot of help in that. I see it very much the same thing. You know, you've got, you know, the macOS that we sit in the browser on top of, we get the Windows OS and we write to chromium. And we get both. You know, it's also when you think of that modern design, the idea of mounting between devices, the idea of unmanaged devices, quickly navigating from device to device to upgrading, the browser, you just get in and log in and then you get all of your stuff back. When you install local, you come with data residency issues, you come with installation issues, configuration issues and the like. So as operating systems over time have done, they obviously get the if you will machine structure machine language and give you a little easier path to work on. The browser is yet another version of that easier path to work on. So when your user spins up an island browser, you're basically as we kind of established its own separate and isolated runtime environment like an operating system. But when it comes to it comes up fresh without any of the past accumulation of security issues, malware, that's kind of kind of like VDI, right? Do you expect virtual desktop infrastructure? Do you expect this to rival that? Yeah. So today we're just placing a lot of VDI. VDI was the stopgap measure for a lot of these challenges. How do I roll out an environment with strong data controls with consistent configuration to multiple types of desktops? And specifically, how do I do it to managed environments where I can't count on what's there? So when we first ran into this stuff, it was for fat clients. And it was a great way to get a fat client out to an endpoint that we didn't want to bother with. But over time, it's been this necessary evil that we've gotten to our Paul centers that are web based entirely coming in on this. So you think about it, they get back hauled to a farm to then get back to a web filtering station to finally get to go do their job. And that's if there aren't other breaks in the process, other brake could inspects and sandboxes and all sorts of things. We could give that same level of comfort with better visibility, much higher productivity and much higher control right there in the browser. And that's an evolution of what's occurred. It wasn't always there. And if we look back 5 years ago, number one question would be, what can I endpoint taken? My endpoints needed refresh, can they take it? We never hear that anymore. We've never seen a performance issue on the endpoint. And yes, chrome gave us a big envelope to work inside of. It solves less than that you know. It's okay. It comes out the lightest program in the world. But these machines have far outpaced our end user compute requirement you know. I'm sitting here looking at my Mac Pro and I'm pretty sure that you know the maker that would be insulted with the limited work I put on that thing, right? So that's the other value is we can ship the compute to where there is excess compute rather than just pulling it back to the network where we used to be able to stand up the cheapest compute. But now we've got a lot of dead compute on the endpoint. Great point. And so you're mentioning, well, actually, let me step back for a second. So I think one of the things that you were mentioning and you kind of alluded to is that maintaining a browser is nothing, right? Maintaining these big API systems is that's a heavy lift. Yeah, I think cost differential to that is, you know, it's everything from a hundred X cost differential to 50. It's 50 to a hundred. It's a ridiculous ROI. And that was funny when we started two years ago selling nobody cared about the price. But what they love is the end user experience. Oh, my users will stop complaining. Yes, let's look at this. Now, okay, it's great. You're going to be nice to my end users, but hey, what about their ROI? Can I get off that? Can I save money? And that's become a driving factor. So the two work in concert based on the economy, obviously. But yes, it's an ROI. It's complexity. It's an end user experience. All those things get an upgrade in that switch. And we all are very comfortable with our browsers. I often kid, you have these amazing SaaS properties that do one specific thing. They deliver their application. How far do you need to rewrite that traffic to let that user have that experience? You know, you can't shrink the length of a wire. And if the wire starts going back to an internal data center or cloud data center and then gets broken and that traffic gets broken, it gets put back together and set them on its way. You just inherently are incurring costs and end user experience and errors and outages that are just not required. It's one of the reasons why we are seen as a bit of a disruptive technology because there's just so much of the status quo that we've just lived with. That you really got to start to ask yourself, is any of this really required in this network path? And the answer is usually in some capacity probably, yes. But not you know the 100% capacity we see it today. That's a good point. And we really haven't even gotten to, I think, what many of the cisos and customers of yours that I've talked to are really excited about and that's you know if you look at the issue of deploying agents and security controls to all the endpoint devices. Even tougher for mobile because you can't really get a lot of visibility inside. But that problem of deploying those controls or agents becomes unsolvable when you consider personal devices, BYOD, and all the third party stuff that contractors, partners, which you already talked about, could you explain why the enterprise browser has such an advantage there? Yeah. Well, first it's a browser, and you know we all, if you have a browser preference, you probably bought a machine along the way and should have installed your own browser, right? And it was no big deal. And you pressed on. So for starters, we get how to do that as individuals. It's easy. And the policy runs local. It's not a mother may I conversation back. So it connects up to the management console downloads that policy. And that policy is one with intelligence. It can understand the difference between a trusted network and untrusted network. A machine in a good state of machine and a bad state and so on and so forth. And so there's lots of technology from anti tampering to keyboard encryption and the like that try to keep that session private between the browser and the user. And once the user has that, it's this separation of church and state. So use your machine for what you want. It's your machine. You know, browse where you want, do what you want, shop, play, whatever it is you're going to do. Then when you go to work, you double click on that works browser. It's not an island browser. You double click on. It's acne dot com's browser. It's the company's browser. And you double click on that at all your entitlement sit inside there. So when you choose to work, you get to do so. And when you're done working, you're done. And the company gets to feel the same way. They can control that session for what they need to control it for, and then remove themselves from the conversation. A post to things like VPNs and MDMs and back hauling traffic and all of this stuff, where you can't help but invade privacy. You can't help but take on cost you didn't want to take on. And all of a sudden, whether you know it or not, you start administering somebody else's device that they are admins on. And that is a very complex and expensive problem that just as fraught with issues. So it's just a really simple design in the grand scheme of things. So the chromium code base it can obviously be installed on pretty much any kind of device. So any of those users, whether you own the device or not, they're just going to install it. It's going to come up and running. And it's going to be registered, you know, say, I'm acme company, right? And I told everyone that you can't basically you can't come to my cloud unless you have your island browser registered to me, right? Yeah. So it's the experience can be a couple different, but more than likely you've got an email that said, you know, welcome to the acne workforce. Here's how you access your systems. You click on a link and that link will download the browser, give you your credits, and you're off and rocking. And the event you try to go to one of those things from say an alternate browser, you'll be bumped over like you do with all of your teams and zoom and everything else, right? You're clicking in it, and then if you don't have the application, it'll say, we need to download it and you download that. And if you happen to be a contractor or somebody that works with multiple companies, what you log in with will be the policy that runs. So if I'm a large consulting house, I may log in with four or 5 different credentials and experience acme's company and experience a travel agency. It experience a bank. And all of those can run in their own particular set of requirements. When you start doing that with traditional controls, MDMs, VPNs and things like that, that is a nightmare that OS is not ready for. So I'm acme company. I have pushed out, I've either pushed out the browser with policies for each area of the company, or I've told all of my third parties and my people with personal devices, they have to put my browser and once I've done this, what kind of central controls do I get over all these browsers or devices that are connecting to my cloud? There is virtually nothing that happens in that browser you don't have control over. And I always say the word dexterity because things are really important. You saw a brief glimpse of this in a couple of different areas where people made radio buttons on or off. Take copy and paste. Practical joke will play in the office and turn on copy and paste block. When you lose the ability to copy and paste, you hate your life. It's amazing how much you do that, right? Also, you're like, I can't go to a website. There's the leak. I don't know how to make that happen. So you want ability to say, these 7 applications can share data. I can copy between all of this, but not out to my Gmail or not out to my notepad or anywhere else. So it's important to have that control, but not in an draconian sense. And then we can start to take more risks together as an organization. So I'll give you a good example. Think data redaction. We can do what's called soft data redaction. Your a call center worker on a retail company. I will start with redacting everything about that customer's account. So when they come in and say, how can I help you? And they bring up my account. They see very little. They don't see what I bought. They don't see my credit card numbers. They don't see anything. Even though the app may show that. Then as I say, hey, I think you have the wrong credit card number. They can write click, get prompt. Do you want to redact this? Yes, customer wants to change credit card number. And then release that field. So we can take an over aggressive stance on privacy on per data protection, but still a lot of work is to be nimble and in charge of their future. All of that item goes back to our stock. We can see if there's somebody abusing it and we can run that process. And if you think about it, one of the most frustrating things in any data loss effort is we have to assume the worst. So how many credit card numbers did get? How many things were stolen? You have to assume anything they had access to went out the door, whether that occurred or not. This allows us to limit our concern to what really happened in a put controls around that as we see fit. Now, you can do hard data redaction where it just has never seen. We see that in the case of geolocation. I don't want to French data to be outside of France. I don't want German data to be outside of Germany. And we get that a lot. And that's kind of funny because what happened is every European company built their solution to service all of Europe. Then they wake up one day and a new law is in place and all of a sudden this common SaaS app that was supposed to support them for the next ten years. Now has to be sent back into development to figure out how to regionalize it at whatever the pace of the laws are. And in the states you know, we're getting by state laws and it's by country and everything else. Or you can go into the browser settings and you can literally tell it about that app and how you want to handle that. And much easier, much more cost effective than reconvening in R&D source. So if I'm the acme, the acme person that controls the enterprise browser and my tech support person logs and I can make sure all the social security numbers are fuzzed out so they don't see them and I can make sure that you know they don't see in Europe because they're not supposed to see in Europe basically. That's kind of the level of control that you have. Exactly. We can return critical data elements into objects. So let's say I work in a financial institution, I need your social. And I bring it up. We can keep it as an SSM like a variable. You don't have to ever see it, but I can move it to a system to system to find you. So I don't have to come up with another identifier that is yet another data loss item and another challenge. There are so many things you can do. And it really is, goes back to one of the big powers of an enterprise browser. We're pre and post encryption. So I don't care the level of encryption, the networking path you've chosen. Is it peer to peer as a quantum level and crypt that what is it? I can control everything that happens in that presentation layer. I can make sure what is shown, what is in the debug report, I can control all of that. And that is a level of dexterity and control we have not had. I don't think I've ever heard of like there was a lot of places where we put a perimeter around things. But at the presentation layer, you're literally putting a perimeter around eyeballs on screens. Yeah, and so even to that extent, we watermark, for instance, one of our customers, how to build a QR code in a watermark. So you see your name on the screen. And a QR code. And that QR code gives an encrypted message back to that customer back to that company. It tells them everything about that data loss. So if I pull out that phone and I take a picture of my screen, if I don't go through some massive visual editing, the reality is, I will be able to figure out who let the data leak when they did what machine and what were the circumstances. So again, not a full proof deterrent, but way better than we have today. And that's on the physical side. On the actual technical side, we can do an outrageous amount. And that's been very, very powerful. And if you compare that to the alternate approach, an agent on the device looking every possible port of export, every possible area, scanning for what we think a credit card number might look like. You know, all you got to do is write a little script to break your credit card out, put a couple tab keys in there, and all of a sudden you know, the credit card looks like for a bunch of four digit numbers. Run the script on the other end. It's back together. Trying to guess how data will be stolen is just a losing game. It is much better to look at the data. And I always kid if something's important like money. What do we do with money? And our House, I put my, if I see cash line around, I put it in my wallet. If it becomes really important, I put it in a safe. It becomes really, really important. I put it in a bank. We don't disseminate it wildly and have it lying around everywhere and hope to catch it at the point of spending. We can do the same thing. We can literally take SaaS apps and say, this data will only leave under these circumstances. If it's printed, it gets printed here. If it gets shared, it gets shared this way. To the point we've got deal rooms now being built on top of violent. We're bolted banks are literally trying to figure out how to share information. And the real challenge there in the collaboration world take this zoom, I think you start at this zone. You're the one who got to choose the configuration for this. You got to choose a security paradigm for it, what we would be allowed to do, what we want to be allowed to do. When you get to juggernaut companies, they all want to be the one that starts the collaboration. So how did two banks work together in a way they remotely feel safe? And it's problems like that in a collaboration world that you have to start to appreciate are a little different and having control that presentation layer gives you an elegant way to impose your window regardless of configuration. So there's a lot of interesting stuff that you said there. So you can block not just cut and paste. You can block me from printing and leaking that way. I think you can also block screen caps as well yeah. But if I do leak something out, you can also, you're also recording what I'm doing too, right? We can. You know, what I want to do is be careful of what I like to think of it as you're on a machine and wanting to let you use before. So now I'm going to help you use it in a way that's safe. So if you want to save, I'm going to suggest you save it to our save cloud storage, not to your home system. If you want to print, I'm going to point out the fact that we don't allow this data to print it or ask you to print it on a specific area because of that. So I'm going to interact with you as an end user. And yes, I can record everything that occurs, but I can also just report violations. And I could just record when you're interacting in a way that matters to me. So in a privacy laden world, I don't accidentally have to view you operating as an individual. Only as an employee. And I can go to whatever level that employers come from with. So we have some employers that when they are backpacking traffic, they were nervous because they were seeing everything the employee was doing and they don't want to. They just wanted to know they were protecting. So in that case, we can do that. But I've got another large airliner there, large airline that has this monitor and report everything on the administrative plane. So anybody access is an administrative consult. They want a full recording of that. They want every bit of data around that. Because it's not only about security, it's about triage. Something went wrong. What did we do? We've got passengers stuck in the airport. Let's get this fixed right away. And so they want an infinite stream of data. So it really is about the company's objective. We have evolved privacy as much as we have the ability to have visibility. It is a decision made for that organization and how they want to see the world. Very interesting. I was talking to Ashland ciso bob sued her last week who very smart guy. You can see anyone who hasn't listened to the last week's episode. You can see why venture capitalist firms call in ciso's like him to give feedback a device startups, yeah. Absolutely. And yeah, absolutely. And bob and I explored a number of categories that enterprise browsers could disrupt. And we already talked about some of these DLP and VDI. But you know just to summarize what we've kind of gone over. So you're controlling the presentation layer between the screen and the people's eyes because you're fuzzing out what you don't want them to see. The browser is really a runtime environment and operating system. So you're controlling a portion of the partition host, you're controlling the network traffic directly to the cloud, which is an encrypted tunnel and you're the only person that can see into it. You become a core part of the IT infrastructure that you can you have a better chance of your edge than anyone else as far as I can tell. And that we are seeing without a doubt. You know, the way this care edge was first built was all about getting it back to a network station. And we don't want to be a part of that because we don't get the point of the network station in this design. We can send it there. We do. Some people have spent money and they've got a good configuration and want us to use it. But in reality, I don't see a good reason why an end user sitting on their own device can't go directly to Salesforce and operate in a perfectly secure and proficient way and have productivity increase. Why don't you tell us where we can reach you and island online? So Rhode Island dot IO, you can hit the site and drop us a line. You can email me directly. It might get island dot IO as well.