Prepare to be enlightened as we sit down with David Kapla, General Manager at Greer Steel Inc., whose integral role in shaping Alaska's infrastructure is as sturdy as the tanks his company creates. David unravels the intricate journey of tank manufacturing and what goes into crafting a resilient liquid storage solution. This episode is not just a conversation; it's a masterclass in understanding the backbone of Alaska's industrial landscape.
Join us as we unearth the complexities that ensure each container's durability and safety. From double-walled security and the unique features of fireguard tanks to maintenance, David considers critical aspects of the longevity and efficacy of these industrial titans. His insights are a treasure trove for those captivated by the craftsmanship behind the scenes. We tap into David's reservoir of knowledge guided by the hand of UL standards. Join us for this enriching dialogue, where the past meets the present in tank innovation, maintenance, and the unwavering spirit of invention.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal or regulatory advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may occur from using this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional regulatory or legal advice, and the views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host, which would be me or Integrity Environmental. Thank you very much for listening. We would be happy to provide professional regulatory advice as part of our consulting services if you need professional regulatory advice.
Prepare to be enlightened as we sit down with David Kapla, General Manager at Greer Steel Inc., whose integral role in shaping Alaska's infrastructure is as sturdy as the tanks his company creates. David unravels the intricate journey of tank manufacturing and what goes into crafting a resilient liquid storage solution. This episode is not just a conversation; it's a masterclass in understanding the backbone of Alaska's industrial landscape.
Join us as we unearth the complexities that ensure each container's durability and safety. From double-walled security and the unique features of fireguard tanks to maintenance, David considers critical aspects of the longevity and efficacy of these industrial titans. His insights are a treasure trove for those captivated by the craftsmanship behind the scenes. We tap into David's reservoir of knowledge guided by the hand of UL standards. Join us for this enriching dialogue, where the past meets the present in tank innovation, maintenance, and the unwavering spirit of invention.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal or regulatory advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may occur from using this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional regulatory or legal advice, and the views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host, which would be me or Integrity Environmental. Thank you very much for listening. We would be happy to provide professional regulatory advice as part of our consulting services if you need professional regulatory advice.
Good morning, and and welcome to Tank Talk. I'm I'm interviewing David Kapla from Greer Steel Inc. They make most of the tanks that I see for heating oil and many other uses in Alaska. are a foundational business for Alaska, and most Alaskans are very familiar with the Greer logo. They've seen it on many tanks, and so, David, welcome. They are a foundational business for Alaska that most Alaskans are very familiar with the Greer logo They've seen it on many, many tanks and so, david, welcome. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself and about Greer Steel?
David:
Sure, so I started with Greer in 1998, in the in the spring of 1998. I worked in the Fairbanks shop for the first part of my career with the in 2009 and in 20O9 moved down here to Lakewood to take over operations when the manager that was running it at the time was ready to retire. Greer was started in 1952 in a one-car garage in downtown Fairbanks. In 1956, we built the first shop in Fairbanks, which still stands and is still in operation part-time.
Shannon:
I've been to that one many times.
David:
That's over in Hamilton Acres. Yep, Yep. In 1972, we expanded sales to Anchorage. In 1980, we built the shop in Anchorage. In 1983 is when we built what people know as the Fairbanks shop, now over at Lakeview. In 1995, we expanded to Tacoma with a very small shop down in the Tacoma Tide Flats in 1998.
Shannon:
So for the first 45 years you were just solely in Alaska serving Alaskans.
David:
Wo, ight, . Well, we saw a need to expand down in Tacoma, because you can't reach the west coast of Alaska or southeast of Alaska from anywhere within Alaska with our products.
Shannon:
Yeah, from the barge lines, You've got to originate in Washington.
David:
Yeah, exactly, they have to originate at the barge in Seattle. So that's why I did that. In 1998, we moved the Tacoma shop to Lakewood, which is where we are now. Also in 1998, we built the first plastic shop.
Shannon:
O f y. I actually used to own a Greer water tank when I lived in Fairbanks and I had a dry bin to haul all our water in.
David:
Right, that's when we started building those. In 2008, we expanded the Lakewood shop the first time. n 2011, we expanded the plastic shop in Fairbanks In 2014,. we expanded the Lakewood shop again, adding more production facility and a new p a paint facility. In 2015, we expanded the plastic shop again in Fairbanks and that's where we are today. We're still expanding, still looking for more market. I see big things to come.
Shannon:
And correct me if I'm wrong, but do you own or work with ACE in Anchorage as well?
David:
No, it's Anchorage Tank. Oh, Anchorage Tank. Okay, correct. Yeah, we purchase a Anchorage Tank. I'm not sur tha. I think maybe around 2012 or 2014, 2012. 2 timeframe.
Shannon:
Oh, Yeah Yeah Yeah, it's always fun when we're out on the site to see the different tank names, because so many of them have come and gone. Greer, of course, is still here, but it's fun to see the I saw one the other day in Fairbanks called Superman Tanks and I had not seen that one before. A All r right manufacturer names. I saw one the other day in Fairbanks called Superman tanks and I had not seen that one before All right?
David:
Nope, not heard of that. You'll see, if you look close on the ACE tanks a lot of them you'll see our name on it as we produce the tanks for them.
Shannon:
Oh, okay, that makes sense, all right. Well, Greer has a long history in Alaska. You guys are experts at making tanks, and so I thought I would bring you on to talk about some of the things you could share with our listeners about the construction and maintenance and care of tanks. I think that many of our listeners have tanks and they're responsible for them, and they're also responsible for ordering new tanks, and so I think this information would be really helpful to them. And I wanted to start with the ordering of a tank, because our firm helps our clients order tanks quite a bit. Could you give us an idea of what's helpful to know when you're getting ready to purchase a tank? What kinds of information do you need to have ready when you are going to talk to someone like Greer and get a tank ordered?
David:
Well, sure, I mean at this point I'm assuming we're not talking about residential small home heating oil tanks, because that's pretty straightforward.
Shannon:
Yeah, Heating oil tanks are not our typical client. We typically work with larger bulk industrial facilities. So yeah, for this discussion let's talk about an average bulk fuel tank for fleet fueling or maybe aviation fueling, something like that.
David:
Sure, I mean, those are two good points right there. The first thing we need to know is what's going in this tank. Is it going to be diesel? Is it going to be gasoline aviation fuel? What is it? What's going in there? That helps us to determine not only the fitting layout of the tank but the coatings for the tank.
Shannon:
So are there different standards for different services.
David:
Sure, yeah, yeah, there's different equipment that gets used. The different equipment requires different openings. A lot of that has to do with the installing contractor. You know what their preferences are as well. So, but we of course need to know how big. You know. What's the size of this tank? How many gallons are we talking about? Then? What sort of technology are we talking about? Are we looking at a single wall, a double wall, a fire guard? Is it vertical, cylindrical, rectangular, you know, horizontal? There are a lot of different configurations of these things as well. And then, what's the environment that the tanks kind of sit in?
Shannon:
Does the foundation of the tank matter? For, like you know, because I know, we do a lot of skid mounted tanks?
David:
Right, yeah, it matters, that's customer preference. Our tanks will go out of here at very least with steel saddles that are welded to the tank, so it's an integral part of the tank. A lot of the stuff that goes to Alaska will have skids under it. That's more of a means to move the tank once it's on the job site, to get it where it needs to go. Right, yeah, you can't really drag them very well with just saddles under it.
Shannon:
Okay. So we need to know the type of product going into the tank. We need to know the size you want the tank to be and a lot of times that size depends on many things like how often you get barges, your fuel usage during an average time period and then, after those two things, you need to look at the standards that apply to the size and the product type, and then maybe also customer preference or engineer preference whoever's designing the tank installation Right a lot of that's going to have to do with the engineering firm that's involved in laying out the site.
David:
We're seeing more and more fireguard tanks these days. It's just a better product. You don't see too many above ground double walls anymore, or single walls anymore, unless it's just residential. Yeah, we Primary double wall or fireguard.
Shannon:
We're seeing the secondary containment requirements under 40 CFR 112 making the single wall kind of obsolete. Right Double wall means you don't have to have a secondary containment area if you've got the right appartnances on the tank, and so, yeah, we've seen the same thing. Fireguard is interesting though, and I'll ask you about that in a minute, because they're a little different than the UL 142. But what are some of the common appartnances that you install on a tank? What usually comes with a tank, let's say, double double double a double wall for most people at rendering us?
David:
Well, all of our tanks are required to ship with emergency vents, so we'll do that for sure. Beyond that, it really is customer dependent. A lot of these installers want to supply the parts that they're going to install in a tank the fill equipment, the pumping equipment or dispensing equipment, whatever venting they want to do, and then gauging, monitoring. A lot of them will determine that themselves and install it themselves. We do do some turnkey packages and they can get pretty complicated, especially when we're talking about aviation fueling systems. But for the most part they're going to ship with emergency vents, at very least.
Shannon:
And do the emergency vents? I have definitely seen them with shipping caps still on them. So could you talk a little bit about, like there's a weighted plate that goes into your emergency vent and that has to be installed and it has to be free moving so that it can actually lift, but when you ship it, sometimes that plate is not attached, correct?
David:
Yeah, sometimes, depending on shipping restrictions, height restrictions, we'll ship the emergency vents boxed with the tank and then it just has to be installed as soon as the tank arrives on site.
Shannon:
Yes, and I know that there is a free installation guidance from I think it's PEM, and they talk about how to install a UL142 or a 2085 tank correctly. It's free, so we can link that in the show notes for this Sure.
David:
There's also one available for an STI as well.
Shannon:
We'll link both then in the show notes. So let's go back to UL142 versus UL2085, which is also called Fireguard, and there's some other standards that are similar to Fireguard. Like that is. One of the most common questions we get is like why spend more for that protected tank? Like what's the difference between the two and why would you prefer one over the other?
David:
Sure a UL 142 style or STIF 921. Those are intimate contact secondary containment double wall tanks. So the purpose of the secondary containment version of that part of that tank is literally just to contain a leak. That's what its purpose is In the case of the fire guard. The secondary containment will contain the leak, but there's also an interstitial space between the primary and the secondary vessels that's filled with a lightweight concrete is that acts as an insulator for the product against exterior heat sources. So these tanks have been tested in a hydrocarbon pool fire of 2000 degrees for up to four hours without any kind of detrimental effect to the fluid that's inside of the tank. So they offer the insulating properties. They also offer ballistic protection, vehicle impact protection, explosion protection, and these are all tested by STI and UL. So that's really the big difference between the double wall UL 142 or the UL 2085 fire guard tanks.
Shannon:
So we've got additional insulation and I imagine that would have some potential benefits for inventory control as well, because the temperature of your fuel inside the tank would not fall on hot day in Fairbanks versus a cold day in Fairbanks. We have a really wide temperature variation. We also I do know for our clients with really tight port locations that the 2085 tanks can go much closer to buildings because of the fire rating than just a standard double wall tank. I think they can go within five feet, which is pretty tight. Let's walk through the basics of construction. Could you walk me through building like a UL 142 tank? Let's do double wall for now. Where do you start? How thick is the steel? What is sort of the pieces and parts of the process? How are they constructed?
David:
Sure. So the material thickness will depend on the size of the tank. It seems like the most of the ones I go out here are a quarter inch thick primary shell, 516 heads. That seems to be the most common. So yeah, we order the plate, it comes in and we roll it into the specific shape that it needs to be. We cut and flange the heads for the tanks. So we're building a cylinder, basically like a soda can laying on its side. So we'll install the heads, weld everything up and we do the same thing for the secondary. Now each of these vessels of primary and secondary is tested multiple times for leakage, just to be sure that this thing goes out of here without any problems. So we'll build the primary, we'll wrap it with the secondary, we install the fittings, we test it all. While this is going on, we're building the saddles or the sporks, the skid, all the support mechanism for the tanks so that once the tank is done, it can be flown over and set in place on its saddles and skid.
Shannon:
And when you say flown over, you're talking about overhead cranes that are able to move it over. Lay it down to that skid support. I've been to Anchorage Tank and seen the process a couple times, so let me back up because some of our clients have trouble imagining this. But you said previously, intimate contact, and so these steel tanks are basically sleeved one inside the other, correct? There's very little space between the two plates of steel on a standard double wall tank.
David:
Right On a typical UL 142 double wall, and we're talking about the length, so the shell itself, not the heads. The shell is intimate contact, so that's literally, if you could imagine, a laminate, so you have the steel against steel, primary against secondary, the heads. There's going to be an interstitial space on the ends of the tank, but we do that primarily for ease of monitoring, so that you can drop monitors down and there's usually an appurtenance for a sensor, or sometimes there's a visual.
Shannon:
It's called an observation. Well, so you can see to the bottom.
David:
Right, so that's what it is. Intermit contact is just shell against shell.
Shannon:
So, taking that idea, let's move over to the 2085, because those are a little different.
David:
you said yeah, so in the 2085, again, it's a secondary containment vessel, but the difference is there's a three inch interstitial space between the primary and the secondary, so they are not intimate contact at this point. So we do. Obviously we put standoffs inside of there to keep them separate until we can get the insulation.
Shannon:
And those are like little brace pieces of some kind that just make sure that that three inches maintained Okay right, yeah, this is a vangler flat bar.
David:
Sure, yeah, so then once the two tanks are joined, then we pump that interstitial space with the lightweight concrete material.
Shannon:
And I got to see it once. It's like a foam, it's like concrete foam, correct?
David:
Right, that's what it looks like. Sure, yeah, once it's dry, it's you can crumbly in your hands it's. It really requires the structure to keep its integrity. It's not something you want to use for your driveway.
Shannon:
No, no, and it's maintaining those air bubbles around the tank. Right, it's creating lots of small air cushions to keep the like. That's the insulation. Is the air that's wrapped inside that concrete foam, correct?
David:
Just like fiberglass insulation in your house. It's the air that keeps the keeps the heat in and the cold out. Yeah.
Shannon:
So for observing leaks in a 28 five tank there's a little bit different setup on those interstitial monitoring areas. Right, that's a little.
David:
It can be on the fire guards, the 2085s. We, the interstitial monitor will have a drop tube pipe that goes all the way to the bottom of the secondary tank and we do that so that, obviously, once you fill that up with insulation, if you don't have that pipe in there, you can't install your monitor. So that's what it's about in this. In the double wall tanks there may or may not be an internal drop tube. It just depends on the customer what kind of equipment they're going to use.
Shannon:
We prefer the drop tube kind because if you're going to install an interstitial sensor, it's easier to drop it to the bottom of the tank and have it consistently land where it's supposed to land, as opposed to a three to five inch wild area where the cord can pool and it can move around. And we prefer the drop tubes as well. Sure.
David:
There are some sensors though, that that will thread on to the end of, say, a one inch pipe. Morrison, for example, has one that'll thread on to the end of a pipe, and then you would thread the other end of that pipe to a double tap bushing and then drop that through. So in that case you don't need a drop tube because it has its own.
Shannon:
Okay, it's coming with it already. Okay, that's good to know. You mentioned that you do a lot of leak testing. I feel like the welds that you can perform in the shop are pretty thorough. Do you want to talk about the welding that goes into these tanks?
David:
Sure, yeah, these larger tanks are all sub arc welded. So we weld the primary and the secondary inside and outside. So on the inside of the tank it's welded either by hand, if it's small enough, or by a tractor driven sub arc machine, and then on the outside of the tank it's sub arc again. So these are full penetration welds on the shells and the heads.
Shannon:
And do you guys have a certification or a listing from UL 142 and UL 285 to construct these tanks?
David:
Right. Yes, we have files for UL for a lot of different technologies. The same thing with STI.
Shannon:
Okay, I was going to ask about stainless steel tanks because we are getting more questions about those. Some of the additives that we work with require stainless steel tanks. Do you guys construct stainless steel as well?
David:
We do.
Shannon:
And what would be a typical service for a stainless steel tank? I mean additives, clearly, like I just said, but like what else? Is there other other services we're using them for in Alaska?
David:
Yeah, sometimes we'll opt to a stainless steel primary tank, whether it's a fire guard or double wall. If it's more cost effective, then the coatings that would be required for a mild steel tank. Other applications would be aviation. Sometimes they just want aviation tanks to have stainless primaries or DEF tanks. Those are going to be stainless. Water tanks are going to be stainless.
Shannon:
And the reason we're picking stainless over mild steel or carbon steel is for the corrosion resistance. Correct, right, all right. So speaking of coatings and linings, when do you apply coatings at the shop?
David:
So the exterior coatings are done as soon as the tank's complete, so once it's passed its final quality control checks for construction, then it goes into the paint shop. As far as the internal coatings go, we'll do the internal after the primary has been built and tested, but before it's mounted to its supports. And we'll do it that way so we can roll the tank upside down in the paint shop so that when we blast the inside of the tank we can sweep off the media instead of having to carry it out.
Shannon:
I see that's clever and not every tank gets an internal lining right. It has to be a specification for the use of the tank and requested as part of that order. Right, right, yep, and internal linings. We see them a lot with aviation fuels or for highly corrosive environments. We have some in some really remote locations that we know have to last 20 or more years in that location, and so we always recommend internal lining to help make that tank last the length of time it needs to last. Let's see. Let's talk about shipping a tank. What do you need to know about shipping and receiving tanks?
David:
Well, we don't receive them because we build them, so we ship them out.
Shannon:
Right, but if we're going to receive a tank, what do you need to know to get one off the barge?
David:
Sure, Well, you're going to. I mean, at this point the customer would already have the drawings for the tank, so they'll have the rigging layout. They need to know what they have to do to rig this tank to be able to pick it from the front.
Shannon:
They'll have the weight as well, correct, because it'll tell you the weight of the tank and wait.
David:
You're going to want to know that stuff ahead of time for sure.
Shannon:
Okay, I did have a question how large can you build horizontal tanks and is it different between UL 142 and UL 2085? Like what's the typical max out size?
David:
Yeah, so it's so this the spec is that the tank can't be more than six times in length than its diameter. So you know, if it's a 12 foot diameter tank, it can't be more than six times that in length.
Shannon:
Okay.
David:
Now, that being said, we are limited to 60,000 gallons on a lot of these things, and that even further. We're limited by what we can get down the road.
Shannon:
Yes, so you could make a 60,000 gallon tank, for example, but it might not be able to be shipped on a standard barge. It's possible, right, it is possible. Good to know.
David:
We're currently building two 62,000 gallon tanks here.
Shannon:
Okay.
David:
Now these are going to be used for one of the local seafood shellfish guys, so that there's seawater tanks.
Shannon:
Oh, okay, interesting, All right. And then after that size restriction, like the 60,000 plus gallons, we start getting into considering vertical tanks rather than horizontal.
David:
Well, we're limited there as well.
Shannon:
So how big can these tanks be once you get past 60,000 gallons on the horizontal side? Like can they be bigger than that On the horizontals?
David:
No, not, really not for us. That's a that's kind of a loaded question. If we could build larger diner, they could be bigger.
Shannon:
But yeah, so 12 foot diameter is your typical yeah.
David:
for us, typically, 60 to 62,000 gallons is going to be our limit.
Shannon:
Okay, what about vertical tanks under UL? What are their bigger limits on the vertical side?
David:
Yeah, so for the vertical tanks, UL requires that the minimum diameter of a vertical tank cannot be less than one quarter of its height. Additionally, they can exceed 50 feet or 60,000 gallons.
Shannon:
Okay, and then if you want to get bigger than that, then we just will move over to API 653 and it would be a different kind of construction. You guys specialize in shop built tanks and so once you get over a certain size you're running into limitations in the shop and the standard. Okay, I got it. I think I got that. Hopefully that answers questions for some of our clients who are always asking us how big can they go? It's important to realize that there's regulations for safety and for construction quality and all these other things in place to make sure that you've got a tank that works the way you intend it to work, for the care and maintenance of the tanks once they get them. I'm sure you guys have dealt with replacing tanks over the years. Do you have any? Do you have any like best practices or helpful hints for a tank owner to prolong the life of their tank?
David:
Well, I'd say the number one cause to failure is water in the tank. So you have to keep the water out of your tank. Besides that, it's relatively simple and basic for the typical tank owner. What you're going to be able to see is obviously the exterior of your tank. So if you see nicks, dents, scratches, that sort of thing, deal with it when you see it, Don't let it fester. Corrosion is your tank's enemy for sure. So you want to take care of that stuff immediately.
Shannon:
And that means taking care of the coating, because when the coating from a like, if a coating gets damaged from a scratch or from whatever, it starts radiating outward and you know, five years later Bob's your uncle. You've got half the tank side exposed and corroding.
David:
Right, exactly, yeah, so you take care of your coatings. I would do at a minimum annual inspections of the interior of the vessel, if it's accessible.
Shannon:
So actually opening it up, looking inside when the fuel is drawn down? What would you look for in there?
David:
Again, you're looking for any signs of corrosion or algae growth that would cause corrosion. If you have an internal lining, then you're looking for any sorts of holidays or nicks or scratches or missing coating. Again, you want to deal with this stuff as quickly as you can.
Shannon:
Yep. Or we also see coatings lift up because water's gotten underneath them and then just you can start seeing it bubbling and it looks like zits. There's just lots and lots of little pustules all over the bottom of the tank. What kinds of things really shorten the life of a tank?
David:
Well, again, water. That's the biggest thing, and it really just comes down to maintenance, just basic maintenance.
Shannon:
Water maintenance. What about keeping the tank level or making sure that all the appurtenances are supported?
David:
Yeah, I think so that comes back to making sure you're keeping water out of your tank. If your appurtenances are not seated correctly, they're not threaded, you have leaky threads, whatever that's going to introduce water in your tank. Especially in the last guy, I would see that people would want to put these water block filters on their tanks, which is a great idea. But if you're concerned about blocking the water coming out of your tank, I think you would be more concerned about the water that's in your tank.
Shannon:
Yes, but sometimes it's easier for people to block the water than to do the $100,000 project to fix all the vents and re-level the tank or whatever. So we see all kinds. But the long-term proactive approach would be to repair things when they break, maintain your coatings, prevent corrosion and actually look inside your tank often, at least once a year, in a real look inside, not peering through the gauge hatch but actually opening up maybe the manway and taking a look inside when the product's drawn down.
David:
Right, and I'm sure that there are tests you can do with the fuel that would tell you if there's anything inside that tank that shouldn't be there.
Shannon:
Like microbial growth or algae. Yep, yeah, that's part of it, but they need to be looking at the internal steel and coatings and looking for evidence of water intrusion in there as well, because they may not have water right now when they're looking at it, but they might have had water earlier in the year when it was a lot rainier. Okay, okay, those are all really good suggestions. Are there any other resources we can share with our listeners?
David:
For sure you would want to look at our website. There's good information on GreerTankcom, UL website, STI's website. Those are all great sources for information and certainly go visit one of our shops and talk to one of our guys.
Shannon:
Yes, I would love that. I will take you up on that. But I think what's really nice about Greer at least every time we've interacted with you guys is it really is an open book. There's a strong desire to help you get what you need, and if you want to go see something or learn more about it, you guys are really welcoming and open to that. So I appreciate it from our end.
David:
Absolutely. I'm sure we're going to be on tour and showing people around Awesome.
Shannon:
All right, and then last, do you have any fun tank facts or fun history to share with us?
David:
Boy, I wish I did. I sure wish I did.
Shannon:
Have you ever seen a wooden tank?
David:
I have not. I don't think I want to.
Shannon:
Sounds like you might have I have. In Adak there are still many wooden tanks. Some of them were used for water and some were used for fuel, and it's not there anymore. But when I first started going out to Adak in 2008, there was a wooden fuel truck. So it was a fuel truck and it had an oblong wooden tank on the back, but it was clearly a fuel truck. It even had a pump on it. It was not a water truck, so they did use them. I mean wood swells when it's wet, whether it's fuel or water.
David:
Sure, yeah, the closest thing I've ever seen to that would be the woodstaves sewer pipe.
Shannon:
Yep, it's very similar looking. The stuff I saw had a lot of mastic on the outside. It was like they just coated it in tar. I mean, it was World War II, so there probably wasn't a whole lot of steel available, I imagine. Sure, yeah, so do what you have to Yep. David, thank you so much for your time today. I really enjoyed listening to what you had to say. I appreciate all the experience you brought to the table. We appreciate you coming on the show so much.