Tank Talk - Bulk Fuel Podcast
Tank Talk - Bulk Fuel Podcast is a podcast that delves into various aspects of environmental management and regulations, mainly focusing on bulk fuel storage, fish processing, and utility facilities across the Pacific Northwest. Hosted by industry expert Shannon Oelkers, Tank Talk features discussions with industry leaders to answer questions commonly asked by terminal managers. Episodes cover various topics involving State and Federal regulations, tank inspections and permits, and industry vendors. Tune in to navigate the complexities of rules and operations, offering insights and information to listeners involved or interested in environmental compliance and best practices within specialized industries.
Tank Talk - Bulk Fuel Podcast
Analytical Sampling 101: Doing it Right the First Time Featuring Justin Nelson
Analytical sampling is a critical part of environmental compliance - and it’s one area where small mistakes can quickly become expensive problems.
With the upcoming release of the 2026 Alaska Multi-Sector General Permit (MSGP), and the new requirement for benchmark sampling for multiple sectors, many facilities will be performing analytical samples for the first time starting this year. In this episode of Tank Talk, we’re breaking down what that means in real-world practice - from the field to the lab.
We’re joined by Justin Nelson of SGS USA, who walks us through the fundamentals of analytical sampling and helps demystify how laboratory data is generated, reviewed, and reported.
Together, we cover:
- The difference between qualitative vs. quantitative data
- What testing methods are - and why they matter
- How field sampling practices directly impact lab results
- Common sampling mistakes (labeling, preservatives, volumes, chain of custody, and more)
- What labs do once samples arrive and how testing standards are met
- How to read lab data reports, including common notes and flags
We also connect the dots between proper sample handling and better analytical results - fewer resamples, fewer corrective actions, and real cost savings.
If you’re responsible for collecting samples, reviewing lab reports, or staying compliant under Alaska’s water permitting programs, this episode is a must-listen.
Take your samples carefully - because the lab can handle a lot of things… but it still can’t analyze “oops.”
intro/outro created with GarageBand
Welcome to Tank Talk with Integrity Environmental. Join us as we sit down with founder, principal consultant, and bulk fuel storage expert Shannon Olbers to explore regulations, safety, and essential tips for navigating the bulk fuel storage industry. Join us as we explore the unique joys of work and life in Alaska with industry experts, including our team, vendors we work with, and the companies we support.
SPEAKER_04:Hello, welcome to Tank Talk. This is Shannon, and today we're going to talk about sampling. Sampling is something that industrial facilities have to do for many reasons. We're talking about sampling of water or soils, and they're required for some types of water permits or for drinking water, for a variety of contaminated sites work. Typically, third-party consultants perform contaminated site sampling, but the water sampling is often performed in-house. Recently, the Alaska MSGP SWIFT was re-released, and there are new requirements for benchmark sampling for sector P, which is land transportation, warehousing, and bulk fuel storage, and also sector R, which is shipbuilding and shipyards. So many of our listeners are going to be performing analytical sampling for the first time starting in quarter two of 2026. So with that in mind, I thought I would get ahead of the game and invite somebody from SGS North America's Anchorage Laboratory, Justin Nelson, to our show. Justin is the senior account manager for SGS, and I would like him to talk to us about analytical sampling today, how to do it right and avoid some of the most common pitfalls and errors when taking, preparing, and shipping samples. Justin, thank you so much for joining us today. Could you introduce yourself and let everyone listening know how you got into uh lab work?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, poor Shannon. Uh, thanks for having me on. So I grew up in Iowa and went to college at the University of Northern Iowa where I got a degree in biology. Met my wife Erin there. After we finished our undergrad, we both moved down to Omaha, Nebraska so she could get her doctorate. And I worked at a laboratory there for about four years. And after about four years there, we got an opportunity to come to Alaska and we took it. I've been with SGS for about 14 years now, working in sample receiving, quality assurance, project management. And then in July, I've transitioned to a senior account manager role, and I'm representing our Alaskan clients for all of SGS North America.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I'm so excited to have you on this episode, Justin. We have so many questions for you. Let's start with a question we get all the time. Could we talk about the difference between qualitative and quantitative data? They're two different kinds.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. That's a great question. A good way to think about the difference is you know, using an example. You know, if you're out in the field and you see a sheen on surface water and you make an observation in your notebook that says sheen present, then that's qualitative data. You're making an observation and you're describing that observation. If you were to then take a sample of that surface water and you know bring it to the laboratory to test for oil and grease or other petroleum hydrocarbon presence, then what you're gonna get is a result, you know, milligrams per kilogram, milligrams per liter, and that's gonna be qual quantitative data. So yeah, qualitative is a description, and then quantitative is gonna give you an actual data to support that description.
SPEAKER_04:We like to do the shorthand that quantitative is a quantity, therefore it is a measurement. And qualitative is the quality, which is an observation. But I for some reason my mind laughs. Quantity means a number. But that is essentially the difference, right? One is an observation or something that you looked at in the field, but the other one, there's some kind of data involved with that. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:There are some lab testing methods that do you get qualitative data back from.
SPEAKER_04:You know, if you're looking at the lab testing data because lab testing methods, I think, especially to some of our clients who are newer to this, might be brand new to them. So, what is a testing method, Justin?
SPEAKER_01:A testing method is it's a published guide from you know any kind of governing body that tells us how to properly collect and analyze samples for any given testing parameter. They're very detailed. They're gonna cover everything from how you collect the sample in the field, how it's processed in the lab, how the data is reported. They're also gonna include safety considerations, potential interferences, and proper disposal of these samples after analysis. They're issued by organizations like obviously the EPA is a big one. Standard methods, other state agencies, the state of Alaska issues a couple methods for fuel content.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And to give an example, if you bring me a water sample and you want to know how much lead is in that sample, we're gonna say, okay, we're gonna analyze this for total lead. We use method EPA 200.8. Now that method specifies how the sample is collected, how it's preserved, lays out all the steps for analysis, and just following these established methods is gonna make sure that your data is defensible and meets the standards that your clients and our clients are required to follow by their permit issuer, whether it's EPA, ADEC, or any other governing body.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, sometimes there's local requirements for sampling too. So under these testing methods, there's basically two sides of it. One is the collection of the sample in the field, and the other is what happens to the sample after it gets to the lab. I want to go deeper into the interface of how the data is collected in the field and then how that impacts how it shows up in the lab. In our experience at integrity, we have quite a bit of sampling experience ourselves, and we know firsthand that mistakes get made all the time. All the time. And so I think it would be really beneficial for our listeners who may also be doing analytical sampling for the first time to learn about how certain actions in the field can sort of impact those lab results. So would you be up, Justin, for a round of lessons learned the hard way? Yep, let's go. Let's do it. Okay. So I'm gonna say a topic related to sample collection. And if you could just go over one or two common errors and ways our listeners can avoid them. And we'll just go through the list. Okay, first one, sample labeling.
SPEAKER_01:Sample labeling is it seems very simple, but it's it's a very important part of the process. So you're gonna receive labels from the laboratory to put on your containers. And the first thing I would say is to make sure that the laboratory is giving you water-resistant labels or moisture-resistant labels. And when you print your own labels, which a lot of places do, you want to try and do that on moisture-resistant labels. And whatever you're writing on it with also needs to be water resistant. So you use a Sharpie, you know, it's it's that simple. If there's a chance that moisture is going to get into that container, then onto the outside of the container, I mean, then it's probably a good idea to double bag them, just because we don't want to receive, you go out and do a lot of hard work sampling, and we don't want to get back a cooler full of bottles that are just blank labeled water bottles.
SPEAKER_04:Where the ink has drooled off to the bottom and there's this.
SPEAKER_01:You don't know what anything says. It's it's a problem. And it happens.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Is there any difference between soil or water media types for labeling?
SPEAKER_01:The labels themselves are going to be about the same. For soil samples, a lot of the times you're gonna want to double bag those containers just either way because there's a lot more opportunity for the outside to get dirty or muddy during sampling. So you want to make sure that's clean. When you're doing soil sampling, especially if you're sampling for volatiles, you want to make sure you don't get a bunch of sand grains or something on the threads, because that's gonna that's gonna your seal's gonna be gone. And then if you're looking for volatiles, they're gonna escape anywhere they can. So that's another consideration.
SPEAKER_04:No, that's a really good point. When you're putting soil into a jar, you absolutely have to keep that rim clean as a whistle because it will grab any kind of grit and then all your vapors will escape. That's a good point. Can we just talk briefly about one sample ID for multiple containers? Because that confuses people all the time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. It's often a lot of people when they're taking samples, you know, if you're testing something for several different analyses, then we're gonna have different bottle types for all those analyses. So you're taking one sample for, let's say, lead and oil and grease, then what you're gonna have is three total containers. So you have three containers, but it's all one sample. So it's three containers, all with the same sampling time, sample location. It's just different containers for each analysis.
SPEAKER_04:So we'll go over the chain of custody in a minute, but when you're looking at writing down the sample ID on the little chain of custody form or the or the table that you're submitting these samples on, it's gonna be sample one, but there's gonna be three containers, which means that you have to make three labels that say sample one for lead, sample one for oil and grease, sample one, whatever third analyte you got. Absolutely. Okay, I just want to go over that because that confuses everybody all the time. And I'm sure you see it quite a bit come up too where it's sample one, two, three, but it's really sample one. Okay. Let's shift to sample volume. Let's talk about volume. How much uh media needs to go into your jar.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so again, every test method is gonna have a requirement for how much sample we need to run the test, and there's also gonna be a requirement for what type of container it goes into. So we're gonna give you a container from the lab that is specific to that method. You know, a lot of semi-volatiles are gonna need to go into glass containers, they can't go into plastic. Volatiles need to be sampled specially and go into special containers. A lot of analyses need a specific preservative to be in those bottles or stabilizer. And if those are missed out, then for in some cases, for metals, for instance, we can just add stuff. You know, some analyses, the container isn't as important because the stuff you're looking for is so stable. But if you're going out and testing for cyanide and you bring it to me in an unpreserved container or an you know an empty soda bottle that you had sitting around, then you know there's some cases where we just can't do that test. And you know, that can mean a lot of wasted time. So you want to make sure you have the correct containers at the beginning.
SPEAKER_04:So we see this especially with volatile organic compounds in water and in soil, where if you use the wrong jar or you don't fill it all the way up to the top and make a meniscus, the volatiles will off-gas. The data quality is lower because you didn't follow the procedure. And this goes back to the testing methods that we talked about earlier, right? If you're doing a test, you need to understand what the testing method requires for that field sample. And usually your lab will walk people through what they need to do for that specific analyte type, correct?
SPEAKER_01:Correct. Yeah. When you tell the laboratory what analyses you want to run and how many samples you need, then we're gonna give you the correct containers first, and we're also gonna give you a you know, a sheet that tells you which containers are for which analysis, so you'll be able to organize yourself in the field.
SPEAKER_04:So related to that, let's talk about preservatives because some place some test methods require preservatives. What are some of the common errors that you see with preservatives?
SPEAKER_01:Errors that you can control, I would say, are, you know, again, it's it goes back to requesting the correct container and the correct method from the laboratory. You want to make sure you're using the right preservative, and the lab can help you do that. So there's a lot of different types we might use. So we, you know, acids are very common, you know, nitric acid for metals analysis, sulfuric acid for a lot of nutrients analysis, hydrochloric acids for a lot of the fuel type analyses and volatiles. You know, sodium hydroxide is used for cyanide, like I already mentioned, and that's a that's a base. And then for bacteria, you've got like sodium cyotulfate, thiosulfate, that is a it's gonna be a declorinator that's gonna remove that chlorine so it's not continuing to you know neutralize that bacteria while your sample's on the way to the lab. So any of the stuff you get from the laboratory, it's not gonna be highly concentrated acid. They're gonna be fairly dilute. We still warn people that you know, if you spill it on yourself, wash your hands and make sure that you just treat it like any other spill. But you always want to be very safe when you're taking samples, whether there's preservative or not, always wear gloves, long sleeves, eye protection, just general safety considerations. But the preservatives are very important.
SPEAKER_04:They are. And I would also add, as somebody who's done this maybe once or twice in my life, if you are relying on a preservative for something and you're gonna be in a more remote location where you can't just go back to the lab to get another jar, I would order a couple extras so that if you accidentally spill the preservative while you're juggling the sample and all the other things you're supposed to do, or you knock it over with your elbow, you're not out of luck.
SPEAKER_01:If you're going somewhere remote, definitely request 10% extra bottles for breakage and spillage, like you said.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, for some reason the preservative is easy to spill when you're new to sampling because all of your other jars are completely empty. And then you get to one that has just a little bit of preservative in the bottom and you you kind of forget it's there, and you've got this bad habit from the other jars. So, those of us who sample in the field all the time, we have like rigid habits where we never tip a jar over. We always handle it the same way. Everything, we act like everything has a preservative in it. That way we don't forget. But newbies, every time there's some kind of preservative spell. Okay. So all these samples, once we take them, they have to go into a cooler and be packed for shipping back to you guys. So let's talk about that cooler. What are some common problems you see with packing? And then because it's a cooler, let's talk about temperature too.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Yeah, packing up your cooler is it's very important. A lot of the sample bottles that we send out for testing are made of glass. So obviously, you don't want to come back with broken bottles. So if you request it from the laboratory, you know, we're gonna give you bubble wrap, we're gonna give you absorbent materials, and we can make sure they're ready for the trip back, essentially. If there's not enough, then just request more. You know, I've got clients who routinely send me coolers back from you know the slope and they come back full of old t-shirts or the plastic water bottles, you know, old Amazon boxes, and it all works. It's fine. But you just want to make sure that those things are packed so they're not going to break. That's the breakage part. It was just think about when you're getting on an airplane and you're watching them handle baggage. So if you don't feel very good about your cooler taking about a one-foot drop onto the tarmac, then it might be a good idea to add a little bit more packing material to it.
SPEAKER_04:In our experience, what causes breakage the most is putting glass bottles right next to each other and packing them too tightly. The glass hitting the glass is what causes a lot of breakage. And then sometimes packing it too close to a frozen gel pack because the frozen gel pack is hard. Sometimes that so leaving room, don't pack them too tight. This is not not a time for economy. Just ship two coolers.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, those the amber glass bottles that we send out are very strong top to bottom, but side to side, they are not strong at all. So you always want to make sure they're stacked upright, also.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, not laying on their side. That's a very good tip.
SPEAKER_01:Nothing worse than a ball cooler that's just full of broken glass and what's left of your sample.
SPEAKER_04:So and you cannot take a sample once that jar is broken, correct?
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_04:Yep. And the reason for that is it doesn't meet the method requirement for containing the sample media, the vapors that were in it, or the water or whatever. Once it's broken, it's broken. Many, many reasons, yes. Yes. Okay. Let's talk about temperature control because that's another common problem. The cooler has to be a certain temperature when it arrives, typically. Can you talk about that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, most coolers are gonna be required to be at about between zero and six Celsius or about 42 Fahrenheit. So you want them to be cold, but not frozen. You never want to have a frozen sample. So we're gonna send out coolers with usually unfrozen gel ice, but frozen is available if you don't have the facilities to freeze them yourself. But we're gonna use gel ice packs because gold streak, which a lot of people use up here, doesn't allow wet ice to be on a on a plane. And you wanna you want to pack everything so that you've got enough ice in there to keep the samples cooled. A general rule of thumb is that you have the same volume of ice as sample that you're putting in the cooler.
SPEAKER_04:Um, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:That is new to me, but I am gonna put that into my toolkit because what often happens in the field is we come out with 20 gel packs, we pack everything up post-sampling with all the extra bubble wrap up, and now we've only got 14 in the cooler, and I've got six left over that I gotta figure out what to do with. But I think it goes back to the sending more coolers and not worrying about the extra shipping costs if you need to. So related to temperature, let's talk about trip and temp blanks. I think that those are going to be important for people to know about. Could you explain what trip and temp blanks are and then maybe briefly and then maybe go over what some common problems are with those two?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. Trip blanks and temperature blanks, they're two very different things that kind of sound the same, and I think that trips people up a lot. So it we'll start with the trip blanks.
SPEAKER_03:On the trip blank. Well played, sir. Well played. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I'm here all week. Um the uh so a trip blank, it's a sample that we create at the laboratory, essentially. And these are used for volatile analyses. So if something is volatile, that means that it's going to be in the air, it's gonna escape, it's gonna travel out of your sample. That's the reason why we have to sample the volatile samples in such a particular manner, because we want to trap those analyses there. Conversely, you could have volatiles coming from another area that are then affecting your sample. So, you know, you take all your nice clean water samples and you you know put your cooler in the garage next to your snow machine gas, then you might start seeing some things pop up. And that's what the trip blank is for. So it's something that we know was clean when it left the lab. And it's gonna go out with your samples, it's gonna travel to the field, it's gonna travel back. You don't have to do anything with it except keep it with you. And then when it gets back, we're gonna test it along with your samples, and you're going to get a result back like everything else. And for instance, if it comes back and you've got some benzene results in your trip blank, then we can say, okay, well, that's obviously not supposed to be there. And then if you have a benzene detection in your samples also, then that raises the question, you know, is this a valid detection, or did we have benzene coming from an outside source somewhere? So that's what the trip blank is for. You know, it's for volatile analyses, mostly your you know, TAH, BTEx, VOCs, also used for low-level mercury analysis. So that's the trip blanks. It's a clean sample, and if you see anything in it when it comes back, then you start to investigate and figure out where that came from.
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SPEAKER_04:And I'm gonna guess here that the most common mistake with that one is they forget to put it back in the cooler and send it back to you.
SPEAKER_01:That is pretty common, yes. Um it's really up to the client whether they want to run a trip blank, but it's a requirement for most things. It's a recommendation. So I I would not recommend leaving them out.
SPEAKER_04:We typically tell our clients that the value of the data is where you should be spending money on things like trip blanks because if the data is being used to close a contaminated site or to determine how dirty your drinking water is or how dirty something coming out of your storm water is, and it's gonna have impact with the state or the EPA, the trip blank is gonna assure them that the data quality is high or or give you a reason to understand why something showed up that shouldn't be there. So it's recommended by the standard, but we say it's required by how we need to use the data.
SPEAKER_01:Whether you're taking a water sample at your house or you're closing out a you know remote site, it's all about legal defensibility. Yep.
SPEAKER_04:Yep, because all of these samples have consequences. Yes, so many consequences. All right, so that covers the trip blank, but Justin, let's talk about the temp blank because that's a little bit of a different thing. Tell us about the temp blank.
SPEAKER_01:Sure. Temperature blank is a simple bottle of tap water that we send along with the cooler, just like the trip blank. And what we're gonna do with that is when it comes back to the laboratory, we're gonna use a metal probe inserted into that water to take the temperature of the cooler. We do it that way because it's a lot more accurate than something like an IR gun that can just be pointed in the cooler. It's gonna be a lot more accurate and it's gonna be a lot faster.
SPEAKER_04:So again, common problems would be forgetting to put it back in.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Just don't just don't do anything with it. It should say tri temperature blank on the top, and you just it's just there for the ride.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. And then what happens if your temperature is too high or too low? That shows up in the data, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, if the temperature comes back too high, then you know there's a few different things that might happen. Some analyses are not sensitive to temperature, so it doesn't matter in some cases. You know, if you've got a sample for, again, we'll go back to total metals or total lead, you are chilling is not necessary in those cases. So that goes back to the method. The method doesn't require cooling. Some things, if it's not chilled, then you're gonna want to reconsider whether you want to sample again or not, because it could have a real big effect on the data.
SPEAKER_04:If you can skew it high or skew it low, and then we'll talk about this. I have another question related to this coming up, but it ends up being flagged in the data that the temperature was out of bounds. And then that again goes back to the quality of your data. Right. And then if it's frozen, it can blow your glass bottles up and just ruin everything.
SPEAKER_01:Frozen, there's there's not a lot of analyses that are okay after they've been frozen. Bacteria samples are a big one. If I get a sample of a bacteria sample with ice in it, we can't even run that sample. Even if you say go ahead and run it, we can't run it because it's just it's affected that much by the freezing. Some things, again, it always comes back to metals. They're fairly bulletproof. So they can be frozen and then you can just thaw them out and test them. Volatiles, if a volatile container gets frozen, then that's obviously going to change solubility in that sample, and you're gonna end up losing your volatiles out of that. And if the bottle doesn't break, which it does most of the time, like you said. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. So we've taken the sample, we've packed it in the cooler with the gel ice, the trip blank, the tent blank. We have now need to write a chain of custody form. Can we talk about chain of custody forms, what they are, and what are some of the common mistakes that we make with those?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. So chain of custody form is it's you're telling us everything we need to know about your samples. Who do I invoice? Who do I report to? What permit are we dealing with? And then, you know, more importantly, what methods and what analyses do you actually need us to run? So it should tell us everything we need to know. It's a standalone legal document. So you really want to make sure that it's complete. So a lot of a lot of the issues that we might see with those, missing signatures, sample IDs that might not match the bottles that have been put in the cooler, and handwriting, handwriting, handwriting.
SPEAKER_04:So for those of you who've never done a chain of custody, let me set the scene. The lab sends out a printed Excel sheet looking, it looks like an order form almost, but that's where you're gonna document, like Justin said, all of the things that's usually pre-printed. It's got the project name and who's there. But then there's this big Excel sheet part where you're putting in the sample ID, the types of samples you want run, and you're marking them, you're telling them how many containers, whether it's water or soil that's inside of the jar. And this has to go with the samples so that when they open up the cooler, they know what they're looking at and what they're supposed to do with everything in the cooler. And that chain of custody form is specific to the cooler, right, Justin? You can't put the chain of custody for the whole project in just one cooler, right? You need to be cooler one's custody form and cooler two, or am I wrong?
SPEAKER_01:I would recommend that you have a different chain of custody form for each cooler. Yes. It's I don't think it's a requirement for stuff that's not run through the Department of Defense. But generally, you want to make sure each cooler is represented for sure. It's a separated at the very least, I would say if you have everything on one chain of custody and you've got multiple coolers, just put a copy in each one. Perfect.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, that makes sense. I know at integrity we make it specific to the cooler because yeah, if the cooler gets separated, we need to know what got lost too, and not what we need to have to retake. Okay. So for that chain of custody form, let's talk about handwriting because it is typically filled out in the field, correct? So we also run into moisture problems too, where people are filling it out and it's getting all messy. So we also recommend using ink, pens, or pencils that don't run in the rain.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah, you definitely want to you want to protect that thing while you're in the field. You don't want to get it all wet, you don't want to lose, lose a copy. If you do, there's always gonna be an electronic copy that's sent out when you make your kit request. So there is an option to you know fill it out electronically. If you just want to do that when you get back using your field notes, I know a lot of clients do that. That way you don't have to mess with the paperwork in the field. But definitely when you send it back to the lab, put it inside a bag so it's you know not gonna get wet on the way back, and make sure it's readily accessible.
SPEAKER_04:We typically slide it right into a ziploc bag and set it on top. And that way, if anything breaks inside that cooler, it's not getting gross. All right, one last thing. Let's talk about chain of custody seals. We use them a whole lot because we are often surrendering our coolers to airlines, third parties. What is a chain of custody seal and when do you use them? And what are the common problems with them, Justin?
SPEAKER_01:Chain of custody seal is it's just a long sticker with date, time, and signature on it. And it's gonna get placed across the cooler opening, usually on the front and the back of the cooler, so that in order to open the cooler, they have to be cut. So you know that this cooler was packed up by you know Shannon on December 15th at 8 a.m. and it's not cut, so nobody's opened it yet. That's you know, chain of custody procedures. It goes back to the form. Chain of custody procedures are very important. It's it's all about protecting your sample's integrity and making sure that everything is legally defensible.
SPEAKER_04:And if that chain of custody is filled out incorrectly or it is busted, or it has some sort of problem, that will show up on the lab report as well. It may not actually impact the data, but it may impact the usability of the data by whatever agency you're trying to submit it to. They may say, oh, well, this could have been pulled out or messed with, and we don't we don't want to accept it.
SPEAKER_01:Right, correct. Yeah, and they're they're very like you said, when you're sending it on to Gold Streak or you're sending it on to another air carrier, they definitely need to be there. I've actually seen in the past a few times where somebody's sampled in the field right here in Anchorage and they you know bring the cooler straight to the lab and they still get dinged for not having a chain of custody seal on there. So they're gonna be with every every cooler, so just you know, just stick them on there.
SPEAKER_04:We ask for a lot of extra ones because sometimes we forget to sign them and stick them and then have to redo it. Or on the way to Gold Streak, pulling it out of the back of the rental car, it snags on something and pulls right off, or it's pouring down rain when I put it on and it doesn't stick very well. So we just we always ask for extras just in case. Okay, thank you for covering the basics of the field work side of sampling, Justin. I really appreciate that sort of how-to-do it granular look. I I know that's outside of what you do in the lab, but everything we do in the field sort of impacts what shows up at the lab. And I want people to understand the connection between those errors. So let's shift to the second part of the sampling method. So earlier we talked about how there's a field part and then there's a lab part. How do the laboratories meet the testing method requirements once they receive the samples?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's a lot of different things a lab has to do to stay within compliance and to make sure you're getting good data. We're gonna run, you know, based on those EPA or Alaska or standard methods that we talked about earlier. What we're gonna do with those is we're gonna write an SOP, so a standard operating procedure for the lab. And we are going to use that SOP to run the method, and then we are going to undergo different things to make sure that we are we're performing the analysis correctly. So we we get audited by different agencies, and we do PE samples, which are performance evaluation samples at the laboratory. It's essentially a blind sample that we receive that then tells us you know, we don't know the concentration, but the people who send it to us do, and then we do the analysis, send it back, and get graded, and that's how we maintain certification. Certifications come from you know ISO, NELAP, state agencies. Our lab holds ISO 17025 accreditation for the DOD and state of Alaska certifications for drinking water and contaminated sites. We also participate in annual performance studies like the EPA's DMRQA program, where we analyzed blind samples for every analyte reported under a permit, like the new Stormwater General permit, and we submit those results to prove accuracy. So, how do we do an actual actual test?
SPEAKER_04:A good example why don't we narrow that focus down? Like let's take one that we like almost all of our guys are gonna do, like uh TSS, total suspended solids. Walk us through one of those.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Okay. Uh total suspended solids is so that's you're measuring the solids content in your sample, and total suspended solids means you're testing for solids that are not soluble. So there's a lot of different ways we do solids, but total suspended solids will just be the insoluble solids. So we're gonna take that container and we're going to essentially take a filter, we're gonna weigh that filter, get a tear weight, and then we're gonna filter your sample through that filter, and then dry it out, weigh that again, and it's gonna give us the total solids that were not soluble inside that sample. And then yeah, total suspended solids. That's that's a good example.
SPEAKER_04:So you have equipment that allows you to dry it out, and then you run that what once it's all dried, you run what's left through and measure, and that's how you get the analytical data for that sample.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. So I I want to bring that up because I think for a lot of our clients, it's almost magical. It goes to the lab, number comes back. But I do think there's value in understanding how they run things, because one, you can understand what you do in the field, how that might impact something. And then two, I think it's also important to understand that this is real data. These are real things we're measuring. It's not just the made-up number that the EPA has gifted us, which I hear, I don't know, I'm sure you hear it all the time too. Well, let's do one more, because this is definitely related to the MSGP changes. What about total metals? You've mentioned that they're bomb proof a lot, and it's true, it's because they're very difficult to remove from water once they're in there. So let's talk about total metals. Like walk us through the total metals process.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So a sample for total metals, you know, lead, aluminum, iron, all those different things you're gonna find in the stormwater permit. First of all, you're gonna fill the container and it's gonna be preserved with nitric acid most of the time. And that sample is gonna come into the laboratory, and what we're gonna do is we're gonna take about 20 mils of that sample and we're gonna put it in what's called a hot block along with some concentrated acid. So we're gonna do uh hot what's called hot block digestion. So we're you know cooking this sample with acid for you know a predetermined amount of time, and then what we're gonna get, what we're doing there is making sure that all of the metals in that sample are in solution. And then that solution is gonna get taken to what's called an ICPMS. It's an instrument for measuring metal content. It's uh inductively coupled plasma with a mass spectrometer. And what happens to the sample then is it gets nebulized, so it's it's turned into a fine mist and sprayed into a plasma torch that is actually hotter than the surface of the sun. That's a fun fact if you're ever given a lab tour. And it's gonna strip those atoms down to their ions. And those ions are sorted by weight in a mass spectrometer and then counted by a detector. And finally, our analysts are gonna crunch those numbers and do some dilution calculations, and they're gonna report the concentration of total metals in your report.
SPEAKER_04:I am so excited that we talked about the surface of the sun in this science explanation. That's awesome, Justin. So essentially, this whole process is just withdrawing the metals from the water and measuring what got pulled out into solution.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Yep.
SPEAKER_04:And with a and I'm gonna leave magic in the mass spectrometer because we can be here for hours talking about that cool machine, which I love that machine. I did a little bit of work with it in my own undergraduate. It's the coolest thing ever. I'm sure it's even cooler now. Okay, so once these samples are run, SGS or the laboratory sends the client back analytical results in a lab data report. And these very often have results, number values, but then there's other data on the report that gives you information about that number. Could you go over some of the common notes and they're called flags that show up on lab reports and what they mean about the data in case somebody's reading a lab report for the first time, for example?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. So, like you said, once we've finished analyzing the samples, everything gets compiled into a data report. It doesn't just show you your numbers, it's gonna have a lot of notes and flags that help you to interpret them. Uh, a few common ones. First of all, if the analy you're looking for is present, you're gonna see a result. Usually in milligrams per liter, micrograms per liter, or nanograms per liter for some of our more sensitive methods. For example, EPA 1631 for low-level mercury, we can detect mercury down to parts per trillion. So things get pretty low.
SPEAKER_04:That one's my least favorite in the field. You have to do so much fussy work with that sample to make sure you're not contaminating it from your clothes or the air around you. That's a very sensitive test. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:It's another fun part of the tour. You come in, you can tell people that if the analyst has had a tuna sandwich, then they can skew results. That's that really look yes, we're looking at mercury that low.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my gosh. That's crazy. There's that much mercury in tuna.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, it's is it that much though? I mean, parts per trillion? I don't know. I've been given that tour for 13 years and I've never stopped eating tuna. So must like.
SPEAKER_04:What's the um isn't there like a there's a memory device or like a there's a device where they're like one trillion is like one atom in a swimming pool or something? Like one atom of water and a swimming pool. There's like some number it's like one trillion.
SPEAKER_01:A drop in a swimming pool, I think is what it is. A drop in an Olympic sized pool. There we go. So cool.
SPEAKER_04:So we we see things like J flags, N D, and and the letter the letters N D and the letters U most commonly. Let's talk about those three. Let's start with a J flag. What's a J flag?
SPEAKER_01:So a J flag is to put very shortly, a J flag means it's an estimation. The reason why it's usually an estimation is that when we calibrate our instruments, we want to try and dilute that sample to get it within our calibrated range. So if our calibrated range for total lead is between two and fifteen milligrams per liter, let's say, and your sample has 25 milligrams per liter of lead in it, we're gonna want to dilute that sample two times so then the result can fall within the calibrated range. So that means when it's in that calibrated range, we know that it is an accurate measurement. So we're very confident in that quantitation. If we are analyzing a sample and the result comes in below what's called our LOQ, our limit of quantitation, that is the lowest point where we are certain what the number is. So if it comes in below the LOQ, then that means it's reported between our DL, which is the lowest point where we can actually tell the sample the analyte is there. Then if it's between the DL and the LOQ, then it's an estimation, I guess.
SPEAKER_04:So for everyone who's listening right now who just went to Alphabet Soup Land, what Justin's saying is their equipment has a range. And if your sample is higher than or lower than that range, they have to do things to the sample to make it fall within the range. And that's what these flags mean. They're letting everybody who looks at this data know that they've diluted it or concentrated it or that it fell outside the different ranges. It's not necessarily that your data's bad, it's just changing how those numbers are gonna be used for other things.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Does that sound accurate, Justin? Yeah, that's accurate.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Let's talk about ND, because that's another fun one. What does ND mean, Justin?
SPEAKER_01:ND means non-detect. So that's usually the one that you want to see. Most of the time in a lab report, you're not gonna actually see non-detect. What regulators really want to see is the way it's it's gonna be the LOQ for that method followed by a U flag. The U flag means nothing was detected. So ND and say 2.0 U is the same result. They both mean we didn't find anything above the level at which we can see this analyte.
SPEAKER_04:Gotcha. Okay. So from the interpretation side, if you're reading something, you should not be looking for an ND non detect. You should be looking for Or the limit of quantitation, L O Q and number, and then a U flag right after that. That means that we didn't see anything above that level.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. That's good to know. It is a little confusing because non-detect is one of the reporting options on NetDMR for the EPA. So I we definitely get a lot of feedback from our clients. Like, what do I do with this? But if you find this confusing, that's fine. Call us, we can help. Not a problem. And I have a feeling Justin SGS is also willing to help you look at that and understand it. Basics. Okay. And then are there any red flags, Justin? Red flags on the lab? Um.
SPEAKER_03:Just Jay. Just Jay and you.
SPEAKER_01:No. Um if there's anything you know wrong enough with your data that might actually affect reporting and data quality, then your project manager will contact you before you get that report.
SPEAKER_04:And I can attest to SGS being really good about that. We have definitely gotten calls before where we're trying to problem solve whatever happened in the field or whatever happened in the lab. So we we appreciate those calls quite a bit. So, Justin, thank you. I really wanted to connect the dots between poor sample taking and handling and poor analytical results today. And you've helped us do that really well. I just want to point out to our listeners that the better you handle your samples, the better your analytical results will be and when they come back from the lab. And this literally saves you money because if they come back from the lab poor or unable to tell how much stuff is in them, you're gonna have to retake them. And that's hundreds of dollars, if not thousands, depending on what you're doing. So better sample handling up front and understanding how to do this better will lead to less resampling, less corrective actions, and a better relationship with the state and the EPA, because quarters after quarter after quarter of bad data leads to a contentious relationship, as we frequently get in the middle of. So, Justin, thank you so much for taking the time to go through all these complex topics. You did a really good job of laying them out neatly and simply. I really appreciate that. Your expertise is really valuable to us, literally saving us all money. Before we go, I did want to ask, because I ask all of our interviewees this do we have any free or low-cost sources of information that you could point our listeners to if they want to learn more about this before they go out and try to take samples in the field?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. The laboratory is gonna have a lot of information that can help you with sampling, first of all. Besides that, you know, the state of Alaska has a lot of really good technical memorandums on their website that are pretty valuable and they're gonna kind of keep you up to date on regulations and what they might be changing. There's some a website called NEMI-n-e-mi.gov, and that's the National Environmental Methods Index. You're gonna be able to go on there, and if somebody says, hey, I need you to test for hexachlorobenzene, then you say, Oh, well, what's the method for that? You can go on that website and figure out what the method is, so then you can find a laboratory that can do that test for you. Besides that, I would say the most important thing, especially for if you're doing you know permitting work, just understand your permit. Understand what's expected of you and you know, understand work with your lab to make sure that you have all the information you need before you go out and sample.
SPEAKER_04:I would add too that the state of Alaska permitting agencies are also very helpful about helping you understand your permit. So if you read it, it's incomprehensible to you. You can call them and ask for help and understanding, and they will help you get the right language to talk to the lab. Because I think that's one of the biggest challenges we see is that they know they need to sample their water, but they don't necessarily understand how to request that sample with the same language. And then they run into all of these alphabet soup terms that they're unfamiliar with and it you know, it hurts. So hopefully what we've done today has helped people understand that. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, Justin. That was really, really valuable. And then for everyone listening, I just want to end with a reminder to take your samples carefully. The lab can handle a lot of stuff, but it cannot analyze oops. Thank you, Justin. Thank you. Hi there. This is Shannon Olker. And as the owner of Integrity Environmental, I wanted to take a minute here at the end of the podcast to make sure that you knew the following. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal or regulatory advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional, regulatory, or legal advice. And the views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host, that would be me, or integrity environmental. Thank you very much for listening. And if you do need professional regulatory advice, we'd be happy to help you uh as part of our consulting services.
