SPEAKER_03: Good day, and welcome to North Raleigh United Methodist Church Behind the Scenes Podcast, where we sit down weekly and discuss this week's scripture and sermon.
SPEAKER_03: My name is Kevin Van Hall.
SPEAKER_03: I serve as the host and moderator for this podcast.
SPEAKER_03: And joining me today are two senior lead pastors here at North Raleigh, the Johnsons, both Kevin and Laura.
SPEAKER_03: Hiya.
SPEAKER_01: Hello.
SPEAKER_03: Hey there.
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_03: It's a rarity to have you both here at the same time.
SPEAKER_03: So thank you very much for coming.
SPEAKER_03: It's a special podcast with the both of you, but it's a special week.
SPEAKER_03: It's Holy Week going on right now.
SPEAKER_03: It is Tuesday, so it's getting ready to get much busier around here.
SPEAKER_03: So it's a great opportunity right now to talk about Holy Week as a whole.
SPEAKER_03: We normally just talk about this upcoming sermon on Sunday.
SPEAKER_03: We're going to take this opportunity to talk a little bit about this entire week and the things that are going on this week.
SPEAKER_03: And when we say Holy Week, what do we mean?
SPEAKER_03: What does that encompass?
SPEAKER_03: Well, last time, it starts with Palm Sunday.
SPEAKER_03: Last week was Palm Sunday.
SPEAKER_03: It's a beautiful cantata.
SPEAKER_03: We had Andy and Brett explaining that last week on the podcast.
SPEAKER_03: And if you hadn't had a chance to come or see it, it is still available to go online and listen and watch.
SPEAKER_03: And uh very, very well done.
SPEAKER_03: Very moving.
SPEAKER_03: Very, very renewing piece.
SPEAKER_03: So we're moving forward today, as I said, continuing really in Holy Week instead of starting Holy Week.
SPEAKER_03: And just mentioning a couple of the services that are going on.
SPEAKER_03: We have uh a service on Thursday night, Friday night, and then on Sunday.
SPEAKER_03: So, Kevin O'Laura, what is on Thursday night?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, we have a May Thursday service on Thursday at 7 p.m.
SPEAKER_00: And um, we're following both the tradition of the Last Supper, because that's the night where Jesus established uh the Lord's Supper, where he first had communion with his disciples, right?
SPEAKER_00: And it's basically that he was having the Passover meal with them, and when he holds up one of the cups, he starts to you know, holds up the bread and says, This is my body, and holds up a cup and says, This is my blood.
SPEAKER_00: But then uh in in John's gospel in John 13, we get Jesus washing the disciples' feet after the meal.
SPEAKER_00: And um, and oftentimes Maundi is called Maundi because it means mandate, and so Jesus mandated, um, said go and do likewise and to love one another after you wash the feet.
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's often that that the church has practiced both communion and foot washing on Maundy Thursday as a way to remember um Jesus' final night with his disciples.
SPEAKER_03: So you mentioned uh um communion and the cup and saying, This is my blood.
SPEAKER_03: Laura, that's the new covenant, is it not?
SPEAKER_03: The new the mandate of what Jesus asked us to do, the new covenant.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_01: So um when he offered when he was at the lat the table with his disciples and he offered up the bread and the cup, he was putting new meaning into the Passover meal.
SPEAKER_01: And of course, the Passover meal was a remembrance of how God delivered his people out of slavery from Egypt.
SPEAKER_01: And Jesus is doing this anew and saying, This is how I'm going to deliver you from slavery to sin and death.
SPEAKER_01: It's through my body and blood.
SPEAKER_03: So also at the Last Supper, there's some things going on that Jesus tries to explain to them, talks about how someone's going to betray him, and tries to give foreshadowing of the upcoming events that I don't necessarily think the disciples were getting.
SPEAKER_03: They were too busy having a good time.
SPEAKER_03: It's a Passover meal, right?
SPEAKER_03: It's supposed to be joyous celebration.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_01: There was a lot that only made sense after Jesus rose from the dead.
SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of confusion.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and as the disciples pretty much all either betrayed or ran away from Jesus as he was arrested, it's clear that they didn't fully understand what was happening.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
SPEAKER_03: Well, Kevin, you said uh this is in John 13 that Jesus washes the disciples' feet.
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
SPEAKER_03: It's not in the other gospels.
SPEAKER_03: Why?
SPEAKER_03: Why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_00: Uh because John's special.
SPEAKER_00: Uh and so uh I think we've talked about that a lot on here over time, and I'm sure y y'all have covered that, but you know, you have the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
SPEAKER_00: Um John is written probably the latest.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, probably latest.
SPEAKER_00: Um and John, you know, John has some particularities in terms of how he wants Jesus to be portrayed.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's no doubt that John carried on this story and this tradition of Jesus washing the disciples' feet.
SPEAKER_00: No reason to think it didn't happen.
SPEAKER_00: It's just that for the other gospel writers, that wasn't their point of emphasis.
SPEAKER_00: John actually doesn't have the Last Supper.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's an implication there's a Passover meal, but he doesn't emphasize Jesus instituting communion.
SPEAKER_00: He instead, at that meal, wants to emphasize Jesus' service because that's where he gives the new commandment in John 13, 31 to 35.
SPEAKER_00: He talks, a new commandment I give you, love one another, right?
SPEAKER_00: As I've loved you, so you must love one another.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's where John really wants to put the emphasis.
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, that's my short answer to why John.
SPEAKER_03: So that service on um Thursday night, is there going to be feet washing?
SPEAKER_01: There sure is.
SPEAKER_03: There absolutely is.
SPEAKER_01: There will be both communion and feet washing.
SPEAKER_03: So clip your toenails.
SPEAKER_01: Come on, exactly.
SPEAKER_01: Clip your toenails and come on and get both of these moving experiences.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's it's it's not one of these things where um folks are required to do it or anything like that.
SPEAKER_00: So if someone wanted to come and they really just don't like feet, it's gonna be okay if they opt out of that portion.
SPEAKER_00: But um, it really is a powerful, uh it's a powerful, tangible reminder of Jesus' love for us and also of the service.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we really would encourage people to to join and come and come and be a part of it.
SPEAKER_00: And uh I always find that slowing down in Holy Week is a really powerful thing.
SPEAKER_00: So Holy Week, it's like time in the Gospels.
SPEAKER_00: We we have you know, John 13 to John 20 is all over the course of seven days, four days, really.
SPEAKER_00: And so it's almost like a a third of the gospel all of a sudden is less than a week.
SPEAKER_00: And and having being at services on Thursday and Friday helps us enter into that time a little bit more with Jesus in his final days, um, and and I think makes the resurrection even more meaningful.
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
SPEAKER_03: Well, you mentioned Friday, so let's talk about that.
SPEAKER_03: Good Friday, is it really good, Laura?
SPEAKER_01: That's that's always the question of who named it Good Friday?
SPEAKER_01: And it's good in the sense that it is the key to our salvation, um, but it was not good that day.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and the violence that Jesus endured is never good.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but we will be having a service, it's called a tenebre service, which is a church word to describe a service of light and darkness.
SPEAKER_01: So we will have uh candles up and in front of the church, and as we read through the crucifixion account and Jesus' final words from the cross, we will extinguish candles as we go, and the sanctuary will get darker as we ponder his sacrifice and his death.
SPEAKER_03: So, what's the point of it being the light and dark?
SPEAKER_03: What why why such a dark service?
SPEAKER_00: Well, right, so after after Jesus dies and the gospels, right, tells us that the sky went dark for three hours, right?
SPEAKER_00: You know, when the curtain of the temple was torn in two and everything like that.
SPEAKER_00: Um so I think there is some some symbolism to you know Jesus being in the grave and being dead and us remembering that.
SPEAKER_01: Um the service will also end with the stripping of the altar in the church.
SPEAKER_01: So we'll take out all of the decorations, all of the costs covering our our pulpit and our altar.
SPEAKER_01: Everything will go as a symbol of of Jesus of the finality of Jesus' death.
SPEAKER_01: That this is a time not to to celebrate but to mourn.
SPEAKER_03: Excellent, excellent.
SPEAKER_03: And then um Saturday is no service, and in preparation for Sunday services, which starts off with a sunrise service, and that's where we're gonna continue on with our podcast.
SPEAKER_03: We're gonna talk about a little bit more, concentrating on uh the services on Sunday.
SPEAKER_03: But we've gone uh a little bit farther along than we probably should without a prayer, so why don't we pause and have a word of prayer, Kevin?
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
SPEAKER_00: Holy Spirit, we thank you that you guide us through this week.
SPEAKER_00: We thank you for the life of Jesus that um not only shows us how to live, but also uh gives us life.
SPEAKER_00: And through what we remember this week, we recognize that comes our salvation, uh, comes our hope.
SPEAKER_00: So, God, we pray your blessing on our conversation, um, on the hearing and reading of your word, and on its reflection in Christ's name we pray.
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
SPEAKER_03: So now we get to the joyous part, the celebration of the resurrection on Easter Sunday.
SPEAKER_03: So as a child, I remember Easter services and Easter, Easter egg hunts, family gets together to happy times.
SPEAKER_03: I don't remember the darker services or the services on Thursday and Friday or the whole Holy Week as much.
SPEAKER_03: It seems like the church has put an emphasis on celebrating or looking at the entire week instead of just on the happy time on Easter.
SPEAKER_03: Or is that just me?
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
SPEAKER_01: I always grew up going to Thursday and Friday services, so I think it might just be person to person.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or if if their family was going to church.
SPEAKER_00: I mean Good Friday was a big service in my church growing up.
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean, I remember it tan like tangibly, but I remember washing feet as a kid in my church growing up.
SPEAKER_00: See, I never did that until I was an adult, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Well, I was raised Catholic, and I don't remember ever seeing that in a service, but I know that the Pope symbolically does that on a Thursday service, and they get someone to service.
SPEAKER_03: So I don't know if I just a perception uh of mine as a child.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm sure I'm I'm all but sure your Catholic Church had service, they had masses on those nights.
SPEAKER_00: Your family probably didn't go if you don't remember it, but they definitely had services.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Well, I always remember Lent and I always remember uh not eating meat on Fridays uh as part of the whole Lenten season, which is coming to an end here on Easter morning.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: So we're gonna start off with the churches offering a sunrise service.
SPEAKER_03: So we'll sort of throw that out there first, along with our normal service times, and they're gonna do a sunrise service over in Lafayette as well.
SPEAKER_03: So I just want to put that out there to anybody that might be interested in a sunrise service.
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: I know that's been a tradition to a lot of different churches.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: And we used to do it here and it's kind of stopped, and I like to see that it's come back.
SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna have coffee and donuts at the sunrise service.
SPEAKER_01: So you don't even have to have breakfast before you come.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just come on over.
SPEAKER_01: Come on over and worship with us.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's also a great invitation, uh or a great opportunity for invitation to the community.
SPEAKER_00: And right, the hope is that it's not just our folks, but it's a communal type of thing where you know people who maybe haven't been in church for a while or things like that, they could come and and hear the good news.
SPEAKER_00: And so that's that's the hope for that day.
SPEAKER_01: And Pastor Jen is gonna preach that service.
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
SPEAKER_03: And that's over not gonna be at our sanctuary on our grounds, it's gonna be across our street over in Lafayette Village, that's correct.
SPEAKER_03: Small shopping center.
SPEAKER_03: So if you are coming to the sunrise service, you can come park here, but there won't be anybody here.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: The best place to go is is head over to uh Lafayette Village, and it should be obvious.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: Uh, once you go over there.
SPEAKER_03: But if they decide to join us for Easter uh service, um hopefully they can expect um a little tag team show for sermon between Kevin and Laura.
SPEAKER_03: Both you guys are gonna be preaching.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: And uh we are going to uh discuss uh the scripture lesson um for Easter Sunday and for this podcast is going to be out of John, which we've already been talking about.
SPEAKER_03: We're in John 20, and it's verses 1 through 18, but we're gonna break it up and just read verses 1 through 10 at first and then talk about that for a little bit.
SPEAKER_03: So, Laura, do you mind?
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb.
SPEAKER_01: So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they've laid him.
SPEAKER_01: Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went toward the tomb.
SPEAKER_01: The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.
SPEAKER_01: He bent down to look in, and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in.
SPEAKER_01: Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb.
SPEAKER_01: He saw the linen wrappings lying there, and the cloth that had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.
SPEAKER_01: Then the other disciple who reached the tomb first also went in, and he saw and believed, for as yet they did not understand the scripture that he must rise from the dead.
SPEAKER_01: Then the disciples returned to their homes.
SPEAKER_03: Well, excellent.
SPEAKER_03: So there's the story of Mary in John's Gospel, only mentions Mary.
SPEAKER_03: The other gospels talk about other women as well going to the tomb first thing in the morning and realizing it's empty.
SPEAKER_03: Some of the other gospels we get the uh image of a discussion of who's going to roll away the stone.
SPEAKER_03: Uh, emphasis being that it's not an easy tomb to just walk out of.
SPEAKER_03: There was gonna, it's it's quite a feat to show up and see that the stone has been removed.
SPEAKER_01: And my understanding is that it it was like a giant stone disc that was on some kind of track that would have been rolled back and forth, but it would have required several people, several men and could not be opened from the inside.
SPEAKER_01: That's that's kind of how I've understood when I've tried to understand this historically.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so which makes the resurrection even even that much more extraordinary.
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
SPEAKER_03: Matthew even mentions what a centurion, a guard, is actually placed at the spot of the tomb.
SPEAKER_03: So to prevent any kind of um, I don't know, trickery or someone stealing the battery, sure.
SPEAKER_03: We get a lot of emphasis put on that.
SPEAKER_03: That no, it's this is not just somebody's coming in and stealing the body, that there is just no way that that could have happened.
SPEAKER_03: So that's kind of what we get in the first ten verses.
SPEAKER_03: Um in there.
SPEAKER_03: Uh other than uh it's just Peter in John again, it just seems to be Jesus' inner circle for all of these main moments on the Mount in Gosemi.
SPEAKER_03: But um, but here Peter is well played.
SPEAKER_03: We don't know if Peter's at the cross.
SPEAKER_03: We just know that he is, I don't know, denies Jesus, scared.
SPEAKER_03: We don't know about the other disciples at the cross, but we do know that the women are at the cross, and we do know that Mary Magdalene is there as long as in the other gospels mentioned Mary, uh Jesus' mother.
SPEAKER_03: And very important to point out that they the first ones to go to the to the tomb.
SPEAKER_01: Now and that she went early when it was still dark, which was not the safest time for a woman to go alone to a remote place, to a tomb.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but that was the extent of her devotion and courage.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, quite quite amazing.
SPEAKER_03: I love how that uh is pointed out, and it's pointed out in the other ones, um, supposedly for them to bring uh spices and herbs and things for proper um burial at the time, but John makes it sound like uh Nicodemus had already uh arranged with that with Joseph.
SPEAKER_03: So um, but Peter in John, we're gonna say I think it's John is the beloved disciple, uh, leave.
SPEAKER_03: And Mary stays.
SPEAKER_03: And that's where we'll pick up the rest of the story in verses uh 10 through 18.
SPEAKER_03: But Lars got something else to point out.
SPEAKER_01: Well, one of the one of the other fascinating things about this section is that the when they open, when they when they finally go into the tomb, they find the graveclothes there.
SPEAKER_01: And they're not just strewn about, they're like carefully placed where Jesus had been laying.
SPEAKER_01: Folded.
SPEAKER_01: Um, like I'm done with these, thank you.
SPEAKER_01: And and that's just a really significant part of the story that um it they don't fully yet understand that Jesus has risen from the dead, but we can read into it and see that Jesus basically was like, Okay, death, we're done.
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
SPEAKER_03: Well, it kind of reminds me of the raising Lazarus, right?
SPEAKER_03: When he calls and commands to come out, he's wrapped.
SPEAKER_03: He's wrapped up to take stuff off like a mummy.
SPEAKER_00: He's hopping out, man.
SPEAKER_00: His his feet are bound, right?
SPEAKER_00: And and and Jesus, Jesus says, like death be gone with you, right?
SPEAKER_00: Leaves leaves the clothes there.
SPEAKER_00: Uh death can't contain him, right?
SPEAKER_00: Death, death can't hold him.
SPEAKER_00: And that's that's well, we that's a huge, huge part of the story.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: So, well, you point that out, and then my mind thinks, well, then why doesn't Jesus appear naked?
SPEAKER_01: That is the question, right?
SPEAKER_03: Because he's crucified naked.
SPEAKER_03: We don't want to ever talk about that.
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
SPEAKER_01: He he must have found some clothes somewhere.
SPEAKER_03: Somewhere, uh brilliant white uh heavenly garments.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's why Mary later mistakes him for the gardener, because maybe that was all he could find was some gardener clothes to throw on.
SPEAKER_03: Some magic uh shining clothes that made him white that made him look like an angel.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: Maybe even.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: Who knows?
SPEAKER_00: So, uh you guys want to continue on?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb.
SPEAKER_00: As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb, and he and she saw two angels in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet.
SPEAKER_00: They said to her, Woman, why are you weeping?
SPEAKER_00: She said to them, 'They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.' When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: Jesus said to her, Woman, why are you weeping?
SPEAKER_00: Whom are you looking for?
SPEAKER_00: Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.
SPEAKER_00: Jesus said to her, Mary.
SPEAKER_00: She turned and said to him in Hebrew, Rabuni, which means teacher.
SPEAKER_00: Jesus said to her, Do not hold on to me because I have not yet ascended to the Father.
SPEAKER_00: But go to my brothers and say to them, I am ascending to my father and your father to my God and your God.
SPEAKER_00: Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, I have seen the Lord, and she told them that he had said these things to her.
SPEAKER_03: Well, very powerful.
SPEAKER_03: My first uh question would be, Why do you think that we well you already mentioned it, mistakes him as a gardener?
SPEAKER_03: Why doesn't she recognize Jesus?
SPEAKER_03: What is it that separates in his first time speaking with her?
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't even say Mary until the end, after he does, it's it's woman why you're crying.
SPEAKER_03: Why is that?
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think there's several ways you can look at that.
SPEAKER_01: One is it's hard to see what you're not expecting to see, right?
SPEAKER_01: She's not expecting to see Jesus standing in the garden.
SPEAKER_01: And so it's hard to for your brain to process what you d believe is impossible.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think there's something theological happening here that that it she needs Jesus to reveal himself to her.
SPEAKER_01: Um and and in earlier in John's gospel, Jesus says, I know my sheep, I call them by name.
SPEAKER_01: And it's not until Jesus says her name that she's able her eyes are open in a way and she's able to see him.
SPEAKER_01: And whatever form his resurrected body, he must look different, or there must be something that was preventing her from recognizing him.
SPEAKER_01: But it was that that personal invitation of you are a sheep of my of my flock, um, and and we have that relationship, that's when she could see.
SPEAKER_01: Anything you would add?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think it's I think that's yeah, it is something about Jesus' pursuit of her who stays and seeks, right?
SPEAKER_00: So there's something about him calling calling her name in that.
SPEAKER_01: And and what's fascinating is that when Peter and John went into the tomb, they didn't see any angels, but they also didn't stick around to figure out what happened to Jesus' body.
SPEAKER_01: They just go on home.
SPEAKER_01: But Mary, she's persistent, she stays, she's gonna make this right.
SPEAKER_01: And in in her seeking, Jesus called her name and helped her to see.
SPEAKER_01: Their reality.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: It's also, I mean, the name the the word for I will take him away is also is also the word for I will rise, I will rise up.
SPEAKER_00: So like I will rise him up is really an interesting take on that passage.
SPEAKER_00: Um or just you know, she's saying I would and I would rise him up and Jesus is risen, so it's a really interesting um connection there.
SPEAKER_03: Well you mentioned the uh resurrection and maybe a new body, but Jesus later on when Jesus appears to the disciples, we know it's the same body because it look at my hands of pierced hands and in the pierced side.
SPEAKER_01: But he can also walk through closed doors.
SPEAKER_01: So it's not entirely the same body, right?
SPEAKER_01: There's something that's gotta be different about it.
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
SPEAKER_00: It's recognizable, but it's not identical.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: So, and the same thing when Lazarus is supposed to be stinketh after four days in the tomb, right?
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: And he comes out and he looks like perfectly normal.
SPEAKER_03: They ask him, How are you?
SPEAKER_03: How have you been?
SPEAKER_03: And he goes, I've been asleep.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: He says, Asleep.
SPEAKER_03: So we Paul talks about this in the resurrection that we might get, we're supposed to get a new body.
SPEAKER_03: And we we see the uh correlation here of Mary and Martha saying, I know that there's gonna be a resurrection for all of us.
SPEAKER_03: Do we all get a new body or are we still look the same?
SPEAKER_03: I mean, so often people are scared to get cremated because they're you know in ancient times they had to our Christian faith actually had to be buried, Jewish faith as well, body had to be buried because you were gonna need it in the next life.
SPEAKER_03: Do we still believe that?
SPEAKER_00: I think we believe in Jesus coming and raising the dead, and that it indeed involves bodily resurrection.
SPEAKER_00: I think that God can take any and all parts of that and do it.
SPEAKER_01: Um cremation just speeds up the process of what's gonna happen anyways, eventually, right?
SPEAKER_03: So I should say, I should test it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's we have a column barrium here, so we're clearly not opposed to cremation.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think a lot of people have have changed the thought process on that.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: That we don't understand exactly what the resurrection's gonna be or what it is gonna be for new body, just like the disciples couldn't understand when Jesus says, Well, I'm gonna die, and then on three days I'm gonna be raised from the dead.
SPEAKER_03: I can't I don't understand that.
SPEAKER_03: They've never seen anyone raised from the dead three days later.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_01: Well, and to that point, it's really significant that Mary thinks he's the gardener.
SPEAKER_01: Because if you go back all the way to the beginning of Genesis, God was the first gardener, right?
SPEAKER_01: Who created Adam, who created this whole beautiful world, and and this idea that Jesus is the gardener and that he's creating a new life, that from being buried in the earth, well, we're in a cave, new life rose, and the same is true for all of us in the resurrection of the body, there will be new life.
SPEAKER_01: And I think we don't know much about we we just don't know enough to know exactly what that's gonna look like, but that we will have imperishable bodies that will be somewhat recognizable.
SPEAKER_03: So the resurrection, three days.
SPEAKER_03: What's the significance of that, Kevin?
SPEAKER_03: Why three days?
SPEAKER_03: Why did Jesus say he was going to be risen on the third day?
SPEAKER_03: He even talks about, mentions it earlier in his things that um just like Jonah has to go through transformation, who's in the belly of the great fish three days, yeah.
SPEAKER_03: For three days.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think it's connected to those.
SPEAKER_00: I I think I think it's three days because the prophecy, I think it's three days because then you really knew someone was dead, dead, right?
SPEAKER_00: Like I think there was that.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously we know that when someone's breath stops and that they're dead, but it kind of confirmed, you know, if it would have happened the next morning or even later that night or whatever, maybe it wouldn't have been but but but I think there was an establishment that like then a body's truly dead.
SPEAKER_00: I mean that that's what I've read and studied, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Well makes sense to me.
SPEAKER_03: Same reason again, the correlation between Lazarus, Jesus waits four days for being like a complete where three-day I is actually tied more for a transformation.
SPEAKER_03: So sometimes in the Catholic faith I've heard the Apostles' Creed and talked about and Jesus descended into hell.
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00: And then we don't necessarily we don't say that in the We say he descended to the dead, which is fitting for he descended into hell.
SPEAKER_00: And uh so yeah, if we say the if we say the old uh the old language version, there's sometimes that he descended into hell.
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to remember.
SPEAKER_01: I get the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed confused in my head sometimes.
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I grew up saying the Nicene Creed where it talks about he descended into the dead.
SPEAKER_03: So is that part of of of defeating death?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: The thought, right, is that he went and loosed the chains of of hell.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's Christian tradition that talks about the harrowing of hell, um, and that that's what happened on Holy Saturday, that that's actually what Jesus was up to uh in the grave, and that you know, he kind of frees and defeats death forever.
SPEAKER_00: I I mean I think this is the importance of talking about bodily resurrection.
SPEAKER_00: We we have a we're not going to get deep into this on Sunday.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but our our culture, and and we've uh inherited this and taken it on in the church.
SPEAKER_00: People would often say that the way people talk about death when a loved one dies is as if like their soul is completely separate from their body and it's just kind of like gonna float up to heaven.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: Um and that that idea is from Plato, not from the Christian tradition.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and rather the Christian tradition says Jesus is going to raise us up and we will be like him and have a physical body like his.
SPEAKER_00: And that our hope is not escape to magically float up to God, but actually the hope is that God is returning to earth to restore it all in a new heaven and a new earth.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: So the hope becomes that God is going to renew, take the sickness and death decay that's in our bodies, and also the sickness and death decay in our culture and in our world and in our planet, and restore it to even greater than the fullness from when it was first created, right?
SPEAKER_00: And that's a that's a big meta type of thought, but it's you know, it's what Paul talks about the new creation, um, and and it it's because of the resurrection of the dead, um, the gardener that Mary sees.
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're not gonna get deep into that on Sunday because that's probably not the most um accessible, accessible thought, but here on the podcast I could talk about it.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we can so that's the purpose of this, is I I try to point out some questions, maybe we can get a little bit deeper thought and understanding of uh exactly what we're reading and expecting.
SPEAKER_03: Typically, a Sunday it's a celebration of, like you said, Jesus goes to the cross and def and dies, but then he's resurrected because he defeats death.
SPEAKER_03: And then sometimes we I see an emphasis on Easter Sunday, how the sacrifice that Jesus makes by taking on the world's sin makes it possible for us to live again through eternal life.
SPEAKER_03: Because without that, is there a resurrection?
SPEAKER_00: No, like so without yeah, I mean it's it's it's both things, right?
SPEAKER_00: Uh in in John, the glorification of Jesus is his death, his resurrection, and his ascension all held together, actually, as like one big glorification.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but our hope, right, is that the cross is empty.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but if Jesus doesn't rise, that cross doesn't mean a thing.
SPEAKER_00: Right?
SPEAKER_00: And the only way for him to rise is to die, right?
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's all it's all connected.
unknown: Right.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: That's it's a more uh we talk atonement theories of why Jesus had to die.
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes some of the theories are just don't necessarily make sense, but if you take the picture as a whole, like you just said there, it makes a lot more sense instead of trying to just justify one act or one part of it.
SPEAKER_03: Um so often today's you always want to hear people want to talk about Revelation and the second coming.
SPEAKER_03: People were like, what does it matter if we save the earth?
SPEAKER_03: Can we just use it all up and destroy it?
SPEAKER_03: God's coming and Jesus is coming back, we're gonna get a whole new earth.
SPEAKER_03: It's that's not a very good uh way of looking at it, is it?
SPEAKER_01: It's not a great reading of Revelation either.
SPEAKER_01: But that's a whole nother podcast.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Sorry I brought it up.
SPEAKER_03: Didn't mean to send you down that rabbit hole.
SPEAKER_03: But we talked about the ascension, and ever since uh then everyone's been waiting for the second coming.
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: And um thing maybe we're missing the point of the initial.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I it I think it's also that we live as we live as people who will be resurrected, right?
SPEAKER_00: We live as Easter people in a world that's not yet restored, right?
SPEAKER_00: So it's this kind of how do we live as people of this new creation that's coming when Jesus returns.
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it looks like restoration is not possible in our world.
SPEAKER_01: And so we have to be people of hope.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: That resurrection power is real.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Right.
SPEAKER_03: Well, this Sunday is uh Easter Sunday morning.
SPEAKER_03: It's a time for celebration.
SPEAKER_03: Like you said, that Jesus has conquered death.
SPEAKER_03: Um ask for some concluding remarks here.
SPEAKER_03: What else can we expect on a Sunday?
SPEAKER_03: I'm looking forward to the uh, I don't know, the tag team uh sermon.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: We don't either either development.
SPEAKER_01: We'll get there.
SPEAKER_00: We'll get there for sure.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: We got a loose plan, so we just gotta work it out a little bit.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_01: But we're gonna have great music.
SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be an Easter egg hunt for kids after 9 45 and 11 o'clock services out in the front lawn.
SPEAKER_00: Yep, at 8:30 and 11 during those traditional services, there's opportunity to sing the Hallelujah chorus at the end for anyone who's ever given that a go in a choir ever.
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna join the choir again?
SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: All right.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: I've had to hear it being practiced above me for the last few days, so I've got to sing it.
SPEAKER_01: You're ready.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Well, outstanding.
SPEAKER_03: Uh any other uh comments or uh you see in the readings that we just talked about, the only thing we didn't really mention how is Jesus says, uh, do not hold on to me, for I've not yet returned to the Father.
SPEAKER_03: It kind of implies that, like you said, we talked about on Saturday that he goes down and rescues the dead in in Hades or whatever before he's actually able to ascend to the Father.
SPEAKER_03: So that's the only other uh point we really didn't mention too much.
SPEAKER_01: We'll revisit that in the sermon too.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: That phrase and and what that what that means.
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's helpful to see the death, resurrection, and ascension as all one one big movement.
SPEAKER_01: They're all connected in John's gospel.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Well, perfect.
SPEAKER_03: Anything else?
SPEAKER_03: I don't think so.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be great.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're excited.
SPEAKER_01: Easter is my favorite, so absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: Well, if we can't get excited by this week, we shouldn't be doing what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00: So no.
SPEAKER_03: I I think we're all excited.
SPEAKER_03: The whole anticipation and celebration started uh last Sunday with the week cantata.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: And it's leading up to a great uh Easter Sunday.
SPEAKER_03: So if you can join us, um, like I said, we have a sunrise and then the normal services, and then everything is always online uh streaming as well.
SPEAKER_03: So until then, um hopefully next week we'll do this again, starting a whole new series.
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
SPEAKER_03: Everything starts all over again.
SPEAKER_03: So until then, may the love of Christ be with you always.
SPEAKER_03: Goodbye, everyone.