SPEAKER_00 0:01

Good day, and welcome to the North Raleigh United Methodist Church Behind the Scenes Podcast, where we sit down weekly and discuss this week's scripture and sermon. My name is Kevin Van Hall. I serve as your moderator and host. And joining me today is one of the senior pastors here at North Raleigh. Laura Johnson. Hi, Laura.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Hey, Kevin. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Good to see you. Welcome back. It's been a little while since we've had an opportunity to talk. We got busy there last summer, and then uh Kevin and I were on last week as we continued on this series of uh the I am statements, and we're in John, uh John's gospel for the I am statements. Last week was I am the way, the truth, and the life. So it's kind of like uh three and one, almost like a little uh the Trinity. We talked about the Trinity in the podcast as well, and he mentions it in his sermon if you hadn't had an opportunity to uh make it to the church. The sermons are posted online as well as the podcast. So I encourage anybody that uh wants to listen in and didn't get an opportunity to make it to the service or a live stream. All of this is posted on the website for you to go and look at and listen when you have time. We're gonna continue our discussion today in the IM series. It is the last of the I am series, and it is I am the true vine. So, Laura, we get to you talk about that and finish up this series and then launch a new series starting next week. But we get too much farther down the road. How about a word of prayer?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Absolutely. Let's pray. Oh Lord, you are indeed the vine, and we are your branches. And we ask that you would fill us up today with your life and your energy and your spirit, that you would guide us as we discuss your scriptures and ponder your scriptures that we might indeed find our fullness of life in you. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Amen. So last week we um like I said this entire series were in John. Um, and we were getting a little bit of the background of what is going on in John right now at this time. Gavin was telling us that uh it's like the discourse part, and we know it's the end times for Jesus, and that is continuing on in this in this passage as well, is it not?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yes, this is the end of his farewell discourse. I think it ends in chapter the end of 17 of and this we're in Luke 5, or John, I'm sorry, John 15. So he has a very long speech on his last evening with his disciples. And this is one of his, this is the final I am statement, and uh, you know, wrapping up his final teaching.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yes. Uh the entire uh chapter 15 is basically words in red. Uh that's basically Jesus speaking. So John uh quoting Jesus throughout this uh entire chapter, and we are going to uh center on the uh first part of the chapter, uh chapter 15, 1 through 17. There's actually uh two sections in here. It talks about the true vine, and then it goes, Jesus goes in to uh talk about his uh commandment um for his disciples. So he's teaching and instructing in this chapter, is he not?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

That's right. And and this I am statement is is a unique one because he's very direct about who each part of the parable represents. And he leads much more directly into the application of what it means to be a vine and branches and what that means of living according to his commandments. And so it's it's different from a lot of his other I am statements because it's a little bit more expanded and it more directly involves his believers than the other ones do.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

I was gonna ask you about that because some of his things that he says in here are is he really speaking to all of us, or is he really just speaking to his disciples at that time? Because sometimes uh you're you kind of lose that. You think, oh, he you can kind of feel his general speech is really reaching out, talking to all of us, and then sometimes I'm the one I think this was meant for them as much. But we do get uh other symbolisms, uh metaphors in there when he talks about being a shepherd. So this is just a continuation of one of those as well. So it's it's different, but it is similar.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

That's right. And it's important to note that the idea of being the metaphor of vineyard was very prevalent in the Old Testament, is very prevalent in the Old Testament, that God is often labeled the the vineyard tender or owner or vine grower, and God's people are often described as the vine. And so Jesus is is picking up on a very old ancient metaphor, and he's reinterpreting it for himself. Hence, when he says, I am the true vine, that he's he's making a distinction between the metaphors, the understandings they've they've learned through past scriptures, and he's reinterpreting it as Jesus does for himself in a new in a new light. Now that Jesus has come, we can understand this metaphor differently than had been previously understood.

unknown 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

I mean, you can also put yourself uh 2,000 years ago, uh, they can relate to uh being a shepherd with sheep.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Or working in the vineyards or olive groves. These are the kind of jobs and things that you know, the disciples, fishermen. Um, there's no tech industry computers here. So he's using references that they're familiar with, easy to relate to and understand.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Um that's right. And in this instance, the the vineyard, the vine grower, I mean, life depended a lot on this, whether it was grapes or olives or you know, whatever was growing, like that was sustenance, that was such a part of life that it it was for us, we're so far removed from how our food is is brought to our table that for them this was serious talk, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Exactly, exactly. Yes. You're you're working somewhere in the fields or with tending sheep or or or growing something.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Whether it's we and there's also the reference of wheat and threshing floors and things and chaff and things like that. So quite a few references to that. Um so back to today. Um, Laura was gonna read, and we are again 15 verses 1 through 17.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

All right. This is John 15, verse 1. I am the true vine, and my father is the vine grower. Jesus is speaking here, obviously. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes to make it bear more fruit. You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me, and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers. Such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you, abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my father's commandments and abide in his love. I have said these things to you, so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete. This is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. I do not call you servants any longer, because the servant does not know what the master is doing. But I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from my father. You did not choose me, but I chose you, and I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. I am giving you these commands, so that you may love one another.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Amen. Well, I have to start off at the very, very beginning. Uh there are two sections there. We talk about being the vine and bearing fruit, and then his commandments and and love, and how if they ask for anything, they'll receive it. I I kind of think that he's directing that one at the disciples a little bit there. But let's go back to the true vine that you already mentioned once before. It makes reference to that there's other vines that you can do, other past. Who is he making reference to about that?

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Well, I I think what he's he's trying to distinguish himself in this metaphor differently from the other, the other ways they've understood the vine metaphor in the past. Kind of like I am the the true shepherd. It it he's saying, I am the one. I am the one you've been waiting for this whole time, I am the divine one, right? So I don't I don't think it's necessarily distinguishing between other vines. I think he's basically making the the statement that he's the greatest vine. He's he's the metaphor that has been in the old testament brought to completion.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

He's the one that they've been expecting.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

So that's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

And uh he goes on and talks about uh him being the vine, but the God is the gardener. God is the one that decides uh what that pruning is uh or if you're gonna be thrown in the fire if you're not um bearing fruit. He tells you, if you stay in me, you'll bear fruit. If you don't, um, but he says that God is the one that has that that job. Is he saying so God has final judgment?

SPEAKER_01 10:51

So I think I think let me back up. I think to to get this parable, to understand this, one of the things to learn is that the word for um prune here is also the same word for cleansed. And so that word is the same. So this idea that some are pruned, some are cut off, some are cleansed, like all of it is you can imagine it as a form of if you think theologically about it, it's about cleansing what is not giving life so that life can grow. And so the this idea of vine is that Jesus is the source of life for the disciples. Like branches cannot grow unless it's attached to a vine. So the vine is what is that source of life, and the father is the gardener who ensures that all of the branches are healthy and cleanses or prunes whatever is not assisting life so that more fruit can grow on the branches that are are trying to produce fruit. The whole goal is fruitfulness. And so that's kind of how how it all works and why the rest of the paragraph, I'm sorry, the the the um section, Jesus moves into following my commandments and being cleansed. It's because the commandments, which is he just gave them in the farewell discourse, the commandment to love. That's that what he leaves them with is love as I have loved you, right? So that is what fruitfulness looks like. It's if you live a life with deeds of love. Um, that that's the commandment that they are to follow, and that you reach that commandment, you reach that fruit when you're abiding in Jesus. And when you're abiding in Jesus, the Father will make sure you are properly cleansed or pruned so that your fruitfulness can be great. So that's that's kind of a big picture of what I think Jesus is trying to say there.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

So as a big picture, I often I see myself, where do I fit in this? Okay, as a regular person reading this, I see God is a gardener, Jesus is divine, and not only are the disciples branches, all of us are branches, right? All of us are supposed to be going out and bearing fruit. So I see that God can, if we stay in Jesus, can be cleansed just like the disciples, maybe not produce as much fruit or different kind of fruit, but it also it seems to me that if there are branches or people out there that are not, are gonna be cut off and thrown into the fire. So I but I are are we not the branches?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Yeah, so there's several ways you can look at this. I think one way you can look at it is to think of this metaphorically as if you are all the branches on one particular vine. So Jesus is the vine, you represent all of the branches on one vine, so that one area of your life is flourishing, another area is dying, and so part of what God does within you is say, let's prune that part off so that this part might grow. All right. So that's one way to interpret it. Another way to interpret it is which I think is more what John had in mind was thinking collectively about the church. So that it's not necessarily each branch represents a person, but that each branch represents a part of the church as a collective body. They were not a very individualistic culture. So they were not really thinking, this branch is Kevin, this branch is Laura, this branch is Pastor Jen, right? They weren't thinking about it that way. It was more of like we as a body represent this entire plant. And whatever branch is not fulfilling fruitfulness, perhaps that's a particular, you know, if you think about it in modern church, a particular program or a particular outreach ministry or a particular worship service. If that's not bearing fruit, it needs to, it needs to be pruned, it needs to be cleansed, right? Um I think you could think of it in the sense of not programs, but people within the church, but more maybe think of it more in like behaviors. Is there a certain behavior that is coming out in any given church? Like there's jealousy or there's quarreling or whatever, like how can those things be cleansed from the body so that it can bear fruit?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

I got you. So it's more of a it's personal, but it's the bad things inside of me that are not producing fruit versus the individual and the and the person or say the church, the church of of Ephesus or Corinth or something. So I got I got you saying that take the dead, bad stuff inside of me versus the individual people themselves.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

The literal person. I think this passage has obviously throughout history, as you as you are in, as you are implying, has been read as a hellfire and brimstone passage.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Thank you. I was trying to lead you down that path. I'm trying to play that little advocate that that that other people are gonna read this and go, right, not throw it into the fire. This is where we get hell from.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

That's right. But Jesus is speaking to his people at the last the last time he's got to speak with them. He's not trying to scare them with hell. He's trying to help them understand how to maintain fruitfulness for their ministry. Um, and and I think that's important to remember that context.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah. So in other words, maybe bad things might come in your life. It's not gonna be a perfect life. God's gotta prune it. Shake you.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

And and same with any body of people, any group of people, any community of people who follow Jesus, it will never be paradise, this side of glory, and there will always be things that need to be pruned.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Pruned. Uh, yeah, exactly. We have to change, grow. Exactly. And move. And speaking of moving on, so let's move on to the second part of the passage where Jesus keeps his commandment and talks about love. He's saying how uh he has been, he's we've heard this in the other parts. Uh, I am the way, I am the truth, the life, the God is in me, and he's in, and I am in him. And now Jesus kind of puts that on the disciples. Um, now I'm in you, you've heard my word, keep it, and then God will be there for you, and as long as you buy it in my commandments. Jesus makes it simple here, instead of a uh 600 rules or laws and uh Leviticus or Deuteronomy, it's simply love one another.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

That's right. I and I like to think of Jesus' word, like he talks about you you've been pruned, you've been cleansed by my word. I like to think of that as like his teaching is the fertilizer. Like it's it's what makes the plant healthy to be nourished by that word. Um but then each plant needs to produce its own fruit. Um and this is where I'm a terrible gardener, and I was thinking this as I've been studying this passage this week, I've been thinking about my seven tomato plants that I have that have had a very difficult summer between the drought and the heat and then lots and lots of rain at once. And I'm like, I should go check to see if there's actually any tomatoes that have grown. I don't think I've had one yet, which is really sad. And then I'm like, I like I'm so glad God is the gardener because I'm not a great gardener in my own life. Um, but the goal is fruitfulness, right? That's what we want out of any plant, and that's the that's what God wants out of us. But the fruit that God is looking for is love. Any kind of form of love, any way it comes out, God is looking for that. That is the fruitfulness that Jesus makes very clear is the goal of his branches.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Okay. And he also says, if you need help, just ask my father. So he doesn't say ask me. That's right. He says, Ask my father. Again, he puts it on God. I'm just in in between, I'm in the vine. If you need anything, ask God and he will I need rain. I need fertilizer. I, you know, those are again metaphors. I need help talking with this person, I need help understanding this person to produce loof. You're he's saying go to the father.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yeah, it's like an invitation to participate in the life of the Trinity, that Jesus is the source of our life. He's the vine. We wouldn't survive without the vine, but God is the one who does the gardening. And so it's like it's like an invitation to this uh indwelling relationship that they have that we're invited into this Trinitarian relationship through Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah, Trinitarian, except uh not all we don't speak of the Holy Spirit in in this uh instance, but it's been spoken to about many, many other times. At least I don't see it.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

That's right. No, it comes later in the chapter, but not in this section.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

So, and I also like the part now. Let's move on to this other part. I no longer call you servants, friends. So you know the plan, just like I know, guys, but you know everything that I know. So I like that uh reference as well. Um, it's at the very end here, and I think he's trying to get them to understand that um he's not gonna be around, but he is going to be around if you stay, I'll be in in you. I don't think do you think they understood what was going on?

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Oh heck no. No, absolutely not. No, absolutely not. And this was so revolutionary of um statement of how to how to be, you know, abide in someone. What does that mean when you're sit like standing in front of this person, right? I think it's one of those things that later along, after everything has passed, they can sit back and be like, ah, that's what he means. That's what he means.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

I I'm like that. I I can't I can't blame them. I'm like that. I can look Monday morning quarterback, I can look back upon a part or an instance and go, oh, I get it now why this happened, or or more of the times regret, I should have done this in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

But that's right. That's right. And and I think that promotion, that that promotion piece of you're no longer servants, but you're friends, that I feel like that's just a gift that Jesus leaves them at the end there. And and that deeper invitation into this abiding relationship, that you're not, you know, you're not, you are, you are a branch. You are you are a s you are grafted into the vine permanently. Like you're there. You're not just a passing butterfly, right? You are a part of the plant. And that that invitation is extraordinary. Because that means you're a part of the life of God. Like, how cool is that?

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Oh, I what I think is really cool is that he's like when I think of a friend, I think I'm on equal footing with somebody. That's right. Jesus is obvious above me and above them. He's superior, but he doesn't hold that over you. He doesn't hold that over them. He's literally says, I'm a friend, I'm down here with you. Yep. He puts you on equal footings. You're not a servant. You're not below me. I'm bringing you up here with me, and we're friends. Yeah. And to me, that's that's pretty incredible that that he loves us that much that he can bring us up to his level. We'll never be up at his level, but I love the reference.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

That's right. That's right. And then when he goes on and he says, You didn't choose me, but I chose you, and I appointed you to go bear fruit, fruit that will last. Some might take that to say, like, there's the whole debate about are you predestined to be a part of God's family, or is it free will that you join? And I like to look at this from the United Methodists, the Wesleyan perspective, as an evidence of what we call provenient grace, which in in our Methodist theology, we believe there's three kinds of graces. The provenient grace is the grace of God that is always at work in our life before we're even aware of God's existence. And the provenient grace of God is in everybody's life and it's calling everybody into relationship with God. It's choosing all of us. And it's that grace that has been at work in our life that allows us to move into justifying grace, which is that moment when we say, Yes, I believe in Jesus. I trust in Jesus to save me, which leads into the sanctifying grace, which is the life of a Christian becoming more like Christ and producing this fruit of love. And so I see this as you did not choose me, but I chose you as that evidence of provenient grace, that before we even knew who Jesus was, before we had even a mind to understand God, God chose us and invited us into this, into this fine.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah. Well, he also gives you an if statement. Uh I like that part of the statement as well, just beforehand, um, when he talks about I chose you, but they still have the opportunity to choose to remain in him or not. If you choose to remain in me, that's right, and you could bear much fruit. So it's not saying it's pre your you will and you're gonna go do this, or the only commandment is just love. It's not command to go do this work. Um, and if you choose, it's so there's definitely that opportunity the free will.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Not forced upon, it is not uh predestined. I'm a big uh believer in free will.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

So absolutely, me too.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Uh anything else you see here you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

I mean, I think it's um I you know trying I I have not written my sermon yet, and I'm trying to think of which end to grab, and there's so much in here to discuss about fruitfulness and how you know in other gospels Jesus doesn't use this this statement of I am the vine, but he talks about how you will know a tree by its fruit, and you will people will know you are Christians by their love, by your love for them. Um, and I think that is such an underrated part of today's world that we know people by their fruit, we know people's heart by their fruit. But Jesus is very clear throughout the gospels that you can see into someone's heart by the fruit they produce. And so I think this is a very challenging passage in a way, because it challenges us to look at the fruit of our lives and consider are we are we a part of, like, are we living on the vine or are we barely hanging on by a thread? Do we need to be patched back on, grafted back in? Do we need fertilizer of God's word? Do we need the nourishment of, you know, of service in order to help us produce fruits of love? And and so I think this is one of the passages that there's a lot to talk about, and yet it's also very simple and very directly challenging to us because there's you can find actual evidence when you look at your life and the fruit you're producing to give you an indication of how healthy of a branch you are.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Oh, well, uh Matthew, um right, uh bear a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and uh and uh and a good tree can't bear bad fruit. I mean, and a bad tree can't bear good fruit. So there's a a way to, like you said, it's a judgment way to tell. Just don't go off of what they say, see what they're doing and producing. He doesn't even make make a reference of you will produce good fruit or bad fruit. You've already been cleansed, you've been pruned by the Father. If you produce fruit and you're staying in meat, it will be good. There is no if, and, or buts in his statement. He doesn't even make a reference of bad fruit or versus good fruit versus some of the other ones. Uh he actually makes that comparison. So any fruit that the disciples bear would be good because they're a good tree and they can't bear bad fruit.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

If they're abiding in him, in him, remain if they remain in him.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

That's right. And that's the key. Because I would are I would I would say that everybody's life is bearing fruit. And I don't think we often acknowledge that the fruit we bear is our best indicator of the kind of life we're like how uh how much we are abiding in Jesus or not, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

True.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Yeah, exactly. And like the the fig tree that Jesus withers uh outside Jerusalem, if you're not bearing any fruit at all, we're just gonna cut the branches, we're gonna cut you down, and we'll start over again with the root. So God is always watching, I guess. Jesus is always watching. Well, excellent uh discussion. Uh look forward to the sermon. Uh I I think you're still working and struggling on it. So I won't ask how it's going. But I know you, I I know it will uh all come together come Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Well, thank you for that confidence. Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

I haven't been turned down, I haven't been disappointed yet. Let's say that.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Well, so and so we're gonna end this uh podcast today on this I am statement, the true vine, and this series, the I Am series. So what's next?

SPEAKER_01 29:07

What's next is a series called Um Small Things Big Impact, and we're looking at different parables in the other gospels that focus on small things like the mustard seed or um I don't remember the other ones at this moment because I'm so deep into the vine. But but thinking about how our small small deeds make a big impact in God's economy. And so thinking through we don't have to try to save the world with a ginormous act, but we can do great things in our normal lives.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

I like this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

It's little like this podcast, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

All right, well, we'll take that, right? That's right, good good trying to bear good fruit.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Well, excellent. Well, thank you so much, Laura. So we'll tag team, so it'll be Kevin next week.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

So and so next week, please come back and join us. And Kevin and I'll sit down and talk about what small thing or big I'll have a big impact next week. So we'll sign off for today's and say goodbye. And may love Christ be with you always. Goodbye, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Bye.