The Construction Veteran Podcast
Welcome to the Construction Veteran Podcast. This is a podcast connecting and celebrating veterans in construction, those who have the desire to be in the industry, and those who support them to create the built environment.
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The Construction Veteran Podcast
From Service to Sites: Ben and Court's Construction Journeys
Discover the remarkable journeys of Ben Nichols, a former Marine Corps officer, and Court Sawyer, a retired Master Chief from the Navy Seabees, as they transition from distinguished military careers to impactful roles in the construction industry. Gain insights into Court's extensive 27-year career in the Navy, including his deployments and pivotal positions at the Naval Academy and NAVFAC headquarters. Ben shares his story as a Marine combat engineer deeply influenced by a legacy of service, with deployments to Afghanistan, and their shared experiences at NMCB 5.
Uncover the key elements that facilitated their successful switch from military service to thriving careers in commercial construction. Listen to Ben’s narrative of his career evolution post-2013, from working with a small contractor to leading the federal contracting division at Harkins, eventually becoming CEO. The episode highlights the crucial role of mentorship, the Skillbridge program, and the alignment between military skills and construction demands, emphasizing the significance of operational experience and continuous improvement in this journey.
Join us as we address the pressing issue of veterans' mental health and career transitions. Ben and Court stress the importance of seeking help, leveraging VA resources, and maintaining a balanced life. They share practical strategies for managing mental well-being and discuss the value of peer support on job sites. Explore opportunities for veterans in construction through programs like Skill Bridge and the power of networking on LinkedIn. This heartfelt episode celebrates the resilience, camaraderie, and mutual respect within the veteran community in the construction industry.
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If you're a military veteran in the construction industry, or you're in the construction industry and support our military vets, and you'd like to be a guest on the podcast you can find me at constructionvetpodcast@gmail.com , or send me a message on LinkedIn. You can find me there at Scott Friend. Let's share the stories and motivate others!
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Getting into construction and feeling that same team environment and that same ability to think about people and solve problems together is clearly right away knew that this would be the career for me.
Speaker 2:This is the Construction Veteran Podcast Construction.
Speaker 1:Veteran Podcast Connecting and celebrating veterans in construction.
Speaker 2:Now here's your host, scott Friend. Welcome back to a unique episode of the Construction Veteran Podcast. I'm Scott Friend. We've got two people on this episode Ben Nichols, a former Marine Corps officer, and Court Sawyer, a retired Master Chief from the Navy Seabees. Let's dig into it. Hired Master Chief from the Navy Seabees, let's dig into it. Ben Nichols and Court Sawyer, how are you guys?
Speaker 3:What's going on, Scott? Good to talk to you.
Speaker 2:This is a first for the construction veteran, so I've never had two people on it once. So this is going to be fun. I hope everybody's ready for the ride. So bear with me on this, you guys too. So Ben and I were actually the first to get introduced through a previous guest of mine, angie Martinez. She's awesome, so shout out to Angie. And Court just happens to be a fellow CB that's working with Ben and previously worked in the service together, so we'll get into that here in a little bit. But, court, I want to start with you, man, where are you from and what's your service background?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I grew up in the heartland, so just outside of St Louis Missouri, joined the Navy in July of 1994. So a really long time ago. I'm kind of dating myself now. Spent 27 years in the Navy Seabees, so as a. Spent 27 years, uh, in the navy cbs, so as a builder, best rate in the navy um darn right yeah, so uh.
Speaker 3:So started out uh, you know several deployments, obviously you know um. And then uh ended my career as uh, the total force enlisted advocate, uh, working with force master chief uh at the time force Force Master Chief Trent, and then it changed over to Force Master Chief Delbert Terrell. So it was great times, you know, really enjoy it. Couldn't ask for a better career. And then Ben and I actually ended up serving together during one of my times in NMCB 5. I had to think there for a second. There's been a couple of battalions in my career.
Speaker 3:So he was my company officer, met up with him in Spain after a year-long stint in Afghanistan, linked up with him and we did that deployment together, went back to Homeport and then both got transferred to the operations department and did another deployment to the Far East, so down to Okinawa, where we had some opportunities to take some troops out and do some of the Balacatan mission, which was kind of cool. I'll let Ben touch on that. But yeah, then Ben transferred out. I got transferred to the Naval Academy, which is where Ben and I were able to stay connected, because he ended up back here in Maryland as well, so got an opportunity to work at the United States Naval Academy as a senior enlisted leader and then ultimately, like I said, ended my career at NAVFAC headquarters in DC, decided to get out at 27 years because my wife was tired of moving around. She wanted the kids to have an opportunity to graduate with the friends they'd made. So stuck it out here and it worked out for the best.
Speaker 2:Man, that's cool. Yeah, I'm ready to dive into a little bit more of that. So, ben, how about you? Where are you from and what's your service background?
Speaker 1:Well, I can't hold a candle to Court's career, making it all the way to Master Chief. I did a lowly five and a half years in the Marine Corps but my dad was a Marine, his dad was a Marine and growing up in Maryland I was just really motivated to attend the Naval Academy. My dad actually didn't want me to attend the Naval Academy because he was a prior enlisted Marine Mustang and he had his fair share of Naval Academy grads that he would call ring knockers. So he wasn't always in favor of that, but I think he came to be pretty proud of it and had an awesome time at the Naval Academy, got to be a four-year varsity wrestler there and seemed like I was predestined to join the Marine Corps. So upon graduation I went to TBS, really wanted to be a tracker, an amphibious assault vehicle officer, and then I really got blessed with my second choice at the end of the basic school, which is a six-month course in Quantico, virginia, where they gave me the military occupational specialty of a combat engineer, which was an absolute blast. So my first duty station was with a combat engineer company out of Okinawa, japan, and got to be a platoon commander of 44 Marines.
Speaker 1:When I first got there, I knew we were going to Afghanistan, so I got a pretty fresh platoon, had a bunch of awesome sergeants and an awesome gunnery sergeant to work with and we did about a six-month workup and then ended up deploying with 2nd Battalion 9th Marines to Marjah, afghanistan, in 2010, which was just a couple months after the invasion of Marjah during the surge of troops, during President Obama's surge of troops there. And then, while in Afghanistan, probably towards the end of that deployment, it was time to pick a new duty station and I remember the monitor at the time emailing me the list of potential assignments and, kind of scrolling through the list, port Hueneme which I could not say at the time because I had no idea how to say it correctly kind of struck my eye. I looked it up and it was right in between Santa Barbara and Malibu and I said you know what? I think that spot's for me and kind of put my name in the hat for that, not knowing anything about the Seabees and ended up at NMCB 5 as a personnel exchange program officer and had an awesome experience for three years serving with NMCB 5 and got to work with a bunch of fantastic CVs deployed to Rota, spain, and back to Okinawa.
Speaker 1:Japan did a detachment with Cort to the Philippines where we got to build a footbridge to help the local population there access their farm fields during the rainy season, when they previously had to walk miles to get to the next bridge. So just a really, really cool experience being with the CVs and learning real construction On the combat engineer side in the Marine Corps. It was all close combat infantry engineering, support, maybe building a small FOB for a squad of Marines to operate out of looking for IEDs to allow our forces to be mobile, and then the Seabees got to learn about what real construction is all about. So that's the background on my service how to blast and wouldn't have changed anything about it and got to work with a bunch of awesome leaders like Corp.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, the Marines blow it up, cbs build it up right.
Speaker 1:That's about right.
Speaker 2:So I mean, you have a pretty unique perspective. Obviously, serving with the CBs, it's always fun. When I run into somebody that served in the Marine Corps I'd say, oh, I was Navy. Oh okay, Okay, I was a CB. Oh man, I love you guys. So it's really neat to get that respect from other branches and so you were embedded in that. I thought that was neat. So, not knowing much about the CBs, I mean so you didn't really know what you were getting into when you had that the orders in front of you going to Port Hueneme.
Speaker 1:Not at all. I really I really didn't. Outside of Googling what a CB was and understanding it a little bit better, um, um, I remember when I first rolled into port oneimi on the very first day I'm coming right out of afghanistan, maybe you know a month ago and um, I rolled into port oneimi and they were doing a field exercise in the park, in the battalion headquarters parking lot, they had one roller concertina wire out and they had, uh, wooden cut of M16s and I was like, oh my goodness, what did I get myself into?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, court, when you went to enlist, did you know much about the Seabees. Was that your first choice, or what was your original plan?
Speaker 3:No. So I'll tell you. So, growing up I was a pretty competitive swimmer and I wanted to go to college and be a swimmer. And my dad did a stint in the Navy as a boiler tech. And I remember my senior year in high school. I told him he was like, what are you going to do? And I said I'm going to go to college. He said you're not going to go to college and drink and party and blow my money. You're going to at least listen to what Navy recruiters have to say. And you know, being a smart aleck teenage kid, I told him. I said, hey, I'll listen to what a recruiter has to say, but if I'm going to join the service, it'll be the Navy. You know, to follow in your footsteps.
Speaker 3:And I thought that I devised this great plan of I'll tell them that I'm really into woodworking and they don't build wooden ships anymore, so I won't have to join the Navy and I can go to college. And uh, lo and behold, my recruiter was a BU one. Uh, so, uh, the second I sat down across from him and I said hey, you know, I'm really into woodworking. I took woodshop in high school and that's kind of the path I want to go down. He was like I got a job for you. And I was like, oh man, so, being a man of my word, which my dad brought me up to be said, I'll try this out for four years, well, realizing that it has to be a minimum of five, said, ok, five years can't be that bad, and then I'll go to college. And then the rest was kind of history, you know. After five years, I was like, oh, this isn't bad, you know, I don't really know what I want to do in life, so I'll stick it out.
Speaker 3:And then, at the end, of nine years I was like, man, I'm kind of good at this, so I guess I'll just stick it out and keep going. I think once I hit 20 years, my wife was like hey, are we done yet? And then, finally, at 27, years I was like okay, you can have your time now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, quite an impressive career. It sounds like I mean knowing what I know. Now, looking back, I mean I don't regret any decisions, but I do wish I had stuck it out for a third enlistment. I got to learn a little bit more maybe go to C school, something like that so I had to learn the hard way, getting out and learning everything. But no, it's really neat. I appreciate you guys sharing your story, um, so this is a question for either one of you, whichever wants to take it. Uh, what do you guys do now? So you both work for Harkins builders. Tell me what you guys do.
Speaker 3:All right, so so I'll go first. So I run the warranty department at Harkins builders. So you know GP GC outfit that uh, they came up with a great idea, idea like let's start our own personal warranty department, which I thought was pretty cool. Ben and I sat down. Uh, when I first got out of the navy I was working as an intern at a at another outfit and uh, doing the skill birds program, and uh he was like, hey, Cord, I think this is the right fit for you, You've got the personality to build this department. So came in and started the warranty department from the ground up, which we're two years in about two years in right now and full steam on warranty. So that's what I do. It's not nearly as impressive as what Ben has done at Harkins. I will tell you that.
Speaker 1:That's kind of you, cord. I'll give you a little background on coming over to Harkins. When I left the Seabees I was actually getting out of the Marine Corps at that time, so I came back to Maryland, where I'm from, and ended up working for a small contractor actually doing a lot of NAVFAC work. So they were a small business that was on one of the NAVFAC Washington small Macs and spent three years there learning the federal contracting game. I remember the first day I showed up on a construction site and they asked me to put the submittal register together and I asked what's the submittal? So I was like he was definitely drinking from the fire hose when it came to the construction industry and federal contracting, the construction industry and federal contracting. But had a really great experience in that small business and got to learn a ton about construction and federal contracting.
Speaker 1:Ended up being introduced to Harkins after a number of years over there and found out about this 100% employee-owned organization that's been around since 1965, that's doing work from Philadelphia down through the Carolinas, and they brought me on board to lead their federal contracting division really government contracting division so, whether it's federal, state, county or municipal, county or municipal and jumped at the opportunity to join the team and had an awesome run of a number of years doing government work at Harkins, growing the team and building some fun projects.
Speaker 1:And they just happened to be going through succession planning after a couple of years there and they ended up throwing my name in the mix of eight other folks at Harkins that they were considering for future executive roles because they knew they had their CEO and chief operating officer, who were the number one and number two gentlemen in the organization getting ready to retire. After three years of working with a consultant who put us through a strategic plan together as a group of nine and put us in different elements at the company. At the end of that three years I'm super blessed that they ended up picking me to succeed the CEO. So now I've been in the president role for a couple of years and took over as CEO in January this year couple of years and took over as CEO in January of this year. But it's an awesome company with an awesome culture and just super humbled and blessed to be able to be doing what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:That's awesome man. What a good spot to be in too. So you kind of like you said you were drinking from the fire and you went. What year did you separate from the Marine Corps? Please remind me.
Speaker 1:I got out in 2013.
Speaker 2:So you had, I mean, from that point, just over 10 years going out basically not knowing much about the commercial side of this industry, all the way up into running a company. So so, court, what? What year did you separate? 2021, july?
Speaker 3:of 21. Oh, wow, so that is. Yeah, you mentioned Skillbridge, which was.
Speaker 2:July 21. Oh wow, so that is three. Yeah, you mentioned Skillbridge, which was it's a relatively new program.
Speaker 3:I was the first person at NAVFAC to do it and I think Admiral Corker was ready to kill me afterwards because everybody else was like, hey, let's do that, as they were separating. He was losing people three to six months early. But yeah, what a great program. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:And that it's based off your rank. Is that correct? So you can do three or six months based off of your rank?
Speaker 3:So it has nothing to do with rank. You can do three or six months. Well, let me rephrase that. They might've changed it by now to where it's based off of rank, but when I was doing it you could do up to six months.
Speaker 2:Um, there was no rank stipulation in it, you just had to have commander's approval. Oh, okay, gotcha. So what a lot of people don't realize is once you make that rank of master chief in the Seabees, you basically combine a bunch of rates so you had a significant amount of knowledge, not only on the carpentry side, but you already had other rates that you get exposed to, even going up through the ranks. I mean, I got to learn how to weld and do some plumbing and electrical work, but so you had this trade knowledge. But what was it that really got you into the commercial side of the industry after you got out?
Speaker 3:So I think that, you know, I think it was a natural transition as I was leaving the bees, you know, to be honest with you, it's comfort zone, right, we worked construction for all those years, easy to transition. And then also the the fact that, uh, you know what brought me to Maryland? Uh, you know, kind of kind of going backwards a little bit, what was Ben? Um, ben Nichols? He, uh, we were in the Philippines, in the jungle, and, uh, I was looking for my next duty assignment and he told me that, hey, go to the Naval Academy, that's the best spot for a guy like you. And then I got here and our friendship, you know, really took off after he got out of the Marine Corps. And so, through that mentorship and guidance from him, the mentorship and guidance from some other people within the community, it just seemed like a natural transition to go into the commercial side.
Speaker 3:I thought that, you know, hey, I have something to offer. I didn't truly know what it was, to be honest with you, operationally, you know, at the level of what I left in CVs, operationally, I thought that I had something there and I did spend some time in doing the operations role for the first company that I went to work for. But then, whenever Ben gave me this opportunity, it just it seemed like it fit right. You know, as a CV you're always constantly looking to improve something. You know that is kind of ingrained in us hey, how do you make it better? And given an opportunity to start a new division within a great organization like Harkins, it seemed like a natural fit. And after talking to my wife and everything that's what the transition was is to go over to Harkins. So it's again to answer your question. I think it was just a natural thing. I've been working construction for 27 years and, surrounded by it in the CVs, it just felt right to go into that sector, leaving yeah.
Speaker 2:So what about you, ben? What was it that really drew you toward government contracting, specifically?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think when I was getting out I was looking at different industries and thinking about what I thought I could make the best lateral transfer in, and for the fact that I just spent three years with the Seabees and also being a Marine Corps combat engineer. It really led me to think about construction and I was really lucky to really utilize the Seabee network and the first company that I worked for was the operations was run by a CEC officer. It had been, you know, been in retired CEC officer, I think. He was a kind of 80s and 90s CEC officer and then started a construction gig and when I got into construction I realized I made the perfect choice because all the things I loved about the Marine Corps were right there in construction.
Speaker 1:So I felt like when I hit the perfect choice, because all the things I loved about the Marine Corps were right there in construction. So I felt like when I hit the job site as a project manager, I had a lead superintendent that felt just like a gunnery sergeant or a chief petty officer that I was partnered with and all the, all the different trades on the job site felt like my squad leaders. So I just felt completely at home in that environment and all the things that the Marine Corps teaches you like, servant leadership, having a bias for action, having decentralized command, so you make decisions at the lowest level possible to allow the people in the front lines to make faster and more efficient decisions, which enables a construction project to go faster. All that stuff is completely and directly works in the construction field as well as in the Marine Corps, so I loved every aspect of it.
Speaker 2:You know, I feel like almost every, every episode somebody says something to that effect that it just kind of felt the same, regardless of what background they came from in the service. It just kind of felt the same being with their team. Ben and Eric, excuse me in your role. How have you kind of carried over the role of a command master chief I mean, that's a big deal or master chief period, uh, how have you kind of carried that role over into your current role?
Speaker 3:So I I gotta tell you at Arkans it's been really easy, uh, because it's an ESOP company, so the culture there is great. It it's kind of been seamless. You know everybody always asks for your input. I think that you know that title of veteran when, when people see it right there, there's a certain thing that that's associated with it, right, uh, when, when people see it right, there's a certain thing that's associated with it, right, when people see that you're a veteran, they oh, okay, that's a person of action and someone who is going to problem solve. They're used to, you know, being in situations like this. So I think that naturally people gravitate to us, which is a great thing. And those open lines of communication again, you know Hartman's being an ESOP, it makes it easy. Everybody's there to do the right thing. The culture's great.
Speaker 3:So as far as carrying over like the role, I kind of try to shy away from it. I don't really brag to a lot of people that I was a master chief in the Navy. It comes up quite a bit whenever they read my profile or something like that. They're like, oh, you did this and I'm like, yeah, but um, yeah, I. I think that the culture at the company is what really is, made it easy as that transition. Um, you know, having been there as well, I try to actually shy away from Ben as much as possible because I don't want people thinking that there's a that you know. Everybody knows that. We know each other from our time in the service, but I really try to hone in on what my job is at Harkins and perform it out to serve all of the executives there.
Speaker 2:So yeah, very cool. How was that transition? And I'll give you a quick story. When I'm up at, like maybe, a veteran career fair trying to hire people, it's really difficult to look at a guy that's an E eight, E nine, and sometimes they might not have a lot of qualifications. So, hey man, you might have to start in an assistant type of level. How was that? Um, not getting over the pride per se, but how were you able to kind of humble yourself and go hey, well, you know, yeah, I had a very fulfilling and long career, but I'm I'm kind of the new guy now. How was that adjustment?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't think there wasn't really one for me. I hit the ground running at Harkins. People would come over and ask me something. I'd be like, hey, I know, I'm the new guy and I actually started at Harkins at probably the worst possible time the week after Thanksgiving. So the majority of the company was either on vacation or going on vacation. So I was kind of left there to figure it out. I was kind of left there to figure it out. But yeah, I think that you know, I think a lot of you know the senior enlisted people in the military.
Speaker 3:They're pretty humble people and it's easy to you know. Hey, you know I would take out the trash if that's what was asked of me. I mean, it's not a big thing. You know where you're coming from. You know we were talking about this today at lunch with some some other coworkers and you know one of the things about military people is we're so used to it when you transfer from one duty station to the next, it doesn't really matter what your rank was, because you start back at the bottom Right. You have to reprove yourself every single time you transfer to get back into that top 10 percent of the command to get back into that top 10% of the command.
Speaker 1:Cord is one of the best there is in terms of emotional intelligence and dealing with people. He's just as good with the battalion commander as he is with the brand new seaman that's hitting the battalion Cord. Just knowing Cord's ability to know and lead people of all different shapes and sizes and the way they think I knew Court would be a home run in the industry. And to highlight Court's humility, I'm sitting next to one of his bronze stars that he earned while serving with the SEALs in Afghanistan. So he's had a pretty awesome career and done a lot of amazing things, yet still as humble as he could possibly be.
Speaker 3:So, Scott, I think again. I think the mindset right and I think this of every veteran right, you want to be operating at that top 10%, and I use the analogy of a foxhole, right, you could be the best foxhole digger that there is out there and be the top 10%. And I use the analogy of a foxhole, right, you can be the best foxhole digger that there is out there and be the top 10% of the guys that can dig a foxhole, but as soon as the foxhole is dug, you quickly go back down to the bottom right. It's the only way you can maintain the top 10% is to constantly improve your fighting position and be that guy, and I think, as long as you approach everything, that's a recipe for success.
Speaker 2:Very well said. I appreciate that and I appreciate your humility too. Court, it goes a long way. Thank you, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:So obviously we talked about how you guys ended up on the path with your service?
Speaker 2:I guess a good question would be I mean Court, I know you're still within the five years of getting out, so, ben, this question is really for you. I guess a good question would be I mean Cord, I know you're still within the five years of getting out, so, ben, this question is really for you. I guess. What is it about this industry that you thought, okay, this is maybe not your promotions and whatnot, but what was it that made you think, okay, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life, this is what I'm going to retire out of.
Speaker 1:I just love the people. It had the elements that I loved about the Marine Corps working with a team and leading people that are outside doing something hard and it gave an opportunity to lean into being a servant leader, which is the right way to be an officer in the military or really the right way to be a leader in anything that you're doing and love working with my senior enlisted partners or the superintendent and the foreman, so it's just getting into construction and feeling that same team environment and that same ability to think about people and solve problems together is clearly right away. Knew that this would be the career for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Court, I guess a way I would ask you that question. When you retired out after all that time, what is it that made you just say, hey, you can retire basically comfortably, and if you really wanted to live a humble life you could. But what is it that drove you to say I want to keep working, I want to keep doing this somehow, some way, some shape or form in the construction industry.
Speaker 3:My wife no, you got to edit that.
Speaker 2:You got to afford the boat somehow, man.
Speaker 3:No, you know, Ben and I actually have this conversation all the time. You know I'm not doing it for the money. Yeah, I think it think it goes back to the camaraderie thing. Right, that's the number one thing you miss when you get out of the military, in my opinion, is the camaraderie, and this industry really offers it. It really does. Everybody's there for the same common goal to get the job done and move on to the next thing. So, yeah, I think that it was a natural transition for me and I enjoy working we talk all the time about. I think it's natural. I just I have to do something. Ben and I were talking right before we jumped on the podcast and I said work ethic is a big thing for me and I focus all my time and energy and quality of life to me is about work.
Speaker 3:And he was like I said so. So when I eventually do retire, when my wife says I can, um, I don't have to do this anymore and he's like, no, you'll. You're the kind of guy that'll find something else and you'll devote all your time to to the next project, and and he's he's right, I probably will. Yeah, I think that's why the camaraderie is is where it is. I think that whenever I am done though, that's probably going to be the hardest day of my life yeah.
Speaker 1:But it'll just be another transition, because I really feel like there is no finish line. So there's not this magical finish line where you retire and you let go. Yeah, you got to have. That's what makes life fun is being passionate about something and putting your work into something, and I imagine whenever you retire, you'll find some passionate thing to be involved with whether it's a nonprofit or whatever it might be, but I think that's what life is all about building relationships and working hard and accomplishing goals.
Speaker 2:For sure, yeah, no, I agree. Now, this is a loaded question, but if you were to have to narrow down to a couple things, what do you think would have been the biggest takeaway from your time in the service that's helped you?
Speaker 1:uh, both of you guys succeed in what you're doing today a couple of times, is just learning to be a servant leader. Because as a leader, if you can be there rolling up your sleeves with the people that you're leading and helping them knock down obstacles and getting to know them as people, and I think if you take that mentality anywhere, it's going to be successful. And then learning how to be decisive it might be another one. I think the military does a really good job of teaching you that if you wait to make the perfect plan, it'll be too late. So you got it you have to plan and maybe you make a 75% plan and execute that plan as violently as you possibly can. That gives you way more success than executing the perfect plan too late. So I think maybe those two things are probably the most important things that learned in the military.
Speaker 3:Man, I'm going to sound like a real junior troop right now and say that Ben just knocked that out of the park, so I don't know what to add. But that's actually the perfect answer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't even know where you would expand on that. I think that you know, in the military we're taught to be critical thinkers and and always think you know five, 10 steps ahead, and that that was one thing that I think truly benefited me coming out of the military. And the work ethic right. I think that the work ethic that is instilling you during service is a huge asset that you bring to the table in the civilian sector. I think it's hard for a lot of people to understand it sometimes, but yeah, I think it's definitely one of the biggest assets that we bring to the table is, you know, our ability to never give up. You know never say die. You know, hey, stick the never, never give up. Uh, you know never say die. You know a stick it out until it's done and done right. You know it doesn't matter how many times we have to do it. Uh, I think those are probably the things that I would add to that, but other than that, again, I sound like a real junior troop right now. Thanks, ben.
Speaker 2:Oh no, I mean, there's there's really no wrong answer to that too, but what's what's unique is that every, every person I asked that it's always like the, the, the soft skills. It's never I learned this trade or I did X, y, z.
Speaker 3:I think that the reason that is is is honestly because you know in the industry that we're in it. I mean, it changes so fast, the skill set itself, the new technologies and everything that come out. I think that that's why everybody's always going to lean towards the hey, what traits, what kind of leadership traits or work traits did I pick up? Not necessarily a hard skill.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a lot of that grit and keeping your head on a swivel learning to adapt. It's these things that we're not. I wouldn't say it doesn't stress me out still, but at the same time I guess I'm better adapted to it because of my time in the service, you know.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, absolutely, and you deal with every single personality type you could possibly imagine, because my first platoon I had kids from the inner city, kids, country bunkins and every single thing in between and trying to figure out how to take that diverse workforce and make them a team is you just learn about people and learn how to manage different types of people. Meet those people where they are rather than force people to adapt to your leadership style, which obviously never works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well said. So I'm going to kind of switch gears here and talk a little bit about the mental health in the industry. Obviously, we know, as vets, you know that's a big, big issue. More recently than ever we found it. It's a major issue in the construction industry too. So if we've got vets out there, uh, or anybody really, that's just getting burned out, cause we know, if you let it, the industry can eat you alive. Um same thing with the service. But if you've got people out there just struggling trying to make it to the next day and they're just getting burned out, what? What would both of you guys say to them just to encourage them?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I would say, hey, you know, don't let pride get the better of yourself. You know, we come from a very tough culture in the military right, where I think for too long, asking for help was was viewed as a weakness. I would say, hey, that's not the case. As a person that has friends with PTSD, I would tell them hey, there's no shame in reaching out. Reach out, you know, talk to someone. Talk to someone and maybe they have the resource that you need. And the other thing I would say is you're not alone. You're never alone in this. You know everybody, everybody's got your back. You know, regardless if you've hung up the Superman cape or not, we're all still here together and it's no different than the days that we were all in the box hole together. So don't hesitate to reach out.
Speaker 1:Now I'm going to sound like a junior. True, that was spot on, so that was really well done. Yeah, but I think you know the couple of times that people have brought that to me and had conversations about not being able to sleep at night because I'm thinking about the 37 things that are lingering that I need to take care of. In the morning I'm listening to another podcast. I think it was a Jocko podcast.
Speaker 1:One thing that was recommended by whoever was talking on there is have a pen and paper right there by your bedside and then write down those things as they pop into your brain, and then you can let that go in the moment and say, all right, I've now controlled that item because I have it down on a piece of paper and I'm going to forget it out of my brain now because I need to get some sleep.
Speaker 1:I'm going to forget it out of my brain now because I need to get some sleep. So I do think like having a balanced life in terms of physical exercise and getting enough sleep and not having alcohol and drug issues are so impactful to mental health, and once you start having two or three of those problems I just mentioned, that's when things really, really break down. So I think anything you can do to kind of keep control of things while you're at home and be the best person you can be at home whether it's a father or whatever it might be and then be the best you can be at work, but kind of do your best to to keep those things in separate and focus where you need, to focus in that and live in the moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, while we're talking about this, one thing that comes to mind is I know the VA gets a really bad rep from a lot of people. I haven't had too many bad experiences personally, but they've been super supportive to me on my personal mental health journey and there's a lot of community care out there that they can defer people to and it's 100% supported by the VA too. You don't have to be 100% disabled, so there's certainly options out there for vets. Even if you don't want to go talk to somebody I mean talk to somebody at the VA I should say they can help you with community care. And what I think I've loved about this industry too is if I'm having a tough time, regardless of if the guy to my left or right is a vet or not, we're going through the junk together on the job site. So they know the same struggles because they're going through the same struggles and it's helped a lot of us.
Speaker 2:Just go, man, this sucks, kind of like when you're you're downrange. This sucks, but I can talk to you about it Cause you're, you got the same experience. It's not like I can come home and unload all my junk on my wife Cause she's just going to go. Okay, that sucks. I don't know how to help you, but it's. That's been really helpful for me. Like you said, both of you guys just there's people out there to talk to. I've answered my LinkedIn plenty of times. People have my phone number and, even if it's just an ear, I need an ear. I need somebody to talk to because I'm going through crap and it sucks.
Speaker 3:I just need to get it off my chest. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, that's well said too, scott. It's an issue that I don't think that we're anywhere close to resolving yet, but uh, you know, I think that a lot of us pray that we do finally get a grasp on it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, for sure. Um, so I'm going to wrap this up with, uh, my last question here. Um, we all know we need people desperately in the industry. Uh, there's plenty of metrics out there and, and plenty of metrics out there and statistics that show, you know, hundreds of millions of positions are becoming open and it's it doesn't look like it's getting much better. Uh, there's a lot of folks good folks retiring out of the industry. So if you have people that listen to the show, that are in the service or maybe recently gotten out, or even older vets, what would you try to say to those folks to try to encourage them to get into the construction industry in some way or another?
Speaker 3:So I would say, as you're getting ready to transition out 100%, look into the Skill Bridge program. You know, as a product of the Skill Bridge program, I thought that it was a great eye opener for me. You know, I was that guy that was like, hey, I'm going to go work the tool section at Home Depot and just be happy. But the second I did SkillBridge and got into the industry. I realized that was the right fit for me. So, yeah, I think SkillBridge would be the number one thing. That's probably the scariest time in your life is transition. When you're going from the military into the civilian sector. You don't know what's next. But I think it's only scary because you don't get out there and see what's available. And in this construction industry it's like Ben has alluded to and yourself it's a great industry where there's lots of camaraderie, and I think that that's what vets are looking for. So, yeah, skill Bridge.
Speaker 1:For sure, though, I mean, what a great program. One thing we do at Harkins is we have an affinity group called the Harkins Warriors, so we try to get all of our Harkins veterans together a handful of times throughout the year. Oftentimes it's something like going to Reese across America and putting Reese on Arlington National Cemetery. Or it's as simple as going and picking some crabs together at a Maryland crab house. But seeking out a company where you have a group of veterans, and it's simple as asking are there any employee resource groups in your company and is there one that's that's tailored to the veteran community? And when you get a group of veterans that are inside the company, you get a little bit of natural mentorship and you get some people to talk with and some people that share a common history. So that's one thing I find really, really fun at Harkins is engaging with the Harkins Warriors and connecting with all the veterans in our company.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one thing I enjoy. We have a resource group and it's really fun to get us all together, talk, smack on the other branches and just kind of talk about the things that we're talking about what skills we bring, how we can help, how we can expose the rest of the company to some of the skills we have or some of our interests, like whether it's laying wreaths at a wreaths across America or something that's important to us and really just educating our colleagues and coworkers on this kind of stuff, or it could be advocating for hey, you know, I want, uh, I'd like to request this specific holiday be a company holiday, cause it's important to me and my, my branch, or whatnot, just as an example. So I mean, I, I, I really appreciate both you guys. This has been interesting. Um, I hope after editing.
Speaker 2:I get at least 20 minutes of a good podcast out of this maybe all the fun that I've had on my end with my kids and dog and whatnot, but uh, yeah, thank you guys. Um, if folks uh would like to reach out, court man, I searched for you on LinkedIn. I don't think you have one, unless you're hiding somewhere. No, I've got it you do.
Speaker 3:Okay, all right. So here's the issue. Total disclaimer my first name is actually Courtland. Okay, I just go by Court. So if you actually search Courtland C-O-U-R-T-L-A-N-D. Actually search Cortland C-O-U-R-T-L-A-N-D. Sawyer on LinkedIn, you'll find it. I'm on there.
Speaker 2:Okay, Well, now I can tag you Ben.
Speaker 3:I'll be sure to tag you too. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So if people want to reach out is LinkedIn maybe the best way to get ahold of you guys to chat.
Speaker 3:Absolutely yeah. I think that's a good resource.
Speaker 2:Okay, Very cool. Well, any any parting words from you guys? Words of wisdom.
Speaker 3:Hey. So I just want to say, Scott, thank you for your service. Man, it's an honor to wear the CV badge with people like you, so thank you for what you're doing here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great, I appreciate what you're doing, you're doing a lot for the veteran community and thanks for thanks for highlighting Cortonot.
Speaker 2:Thank you guys. That's very humbling to hear. I appreciate it. And thank you guys for your time too.
Speaker 3:I got it. You take care man.
Speaker 2:All right, y'all, you too.
