Ep.62 Mental Wellness: Coping Skills for Managing the Anxiety of TikTok Addiction!

Join MJ on a six-month journey with her guest, who initiates a self-imposed TikTok Block. Initially struggling with phone overuse, especially on TikTok, the guest deletes the app and shares valuable insights and strategies regarding the effects this has on her mental and physical wellness over time. The transformation illustrates the power of social media algorithms on the human brain and highlights the importance of digital self-care in an age of constant connectivity, overused devices, and highly addictive apps. The guest advocates for listeners to actively oversee and manage their social media engagement, whether it's on TikTok, Facebook, or any other platforms that keep us coming back for more.  You will love this episode!

Creating Midlife Calm is a podcast designed to guide you through the challenges of midlife, tackling issues like anxiety, low self-esteem, feeling unworthy, procrastination, and isolation, while offering strategies for improving relationships, family support, emotional wellbeing, mental wellness, and parenting, with a focus on mindfulness, stress management, coping skills, and personal growth to stop rumination, overthinking, and increase confidence through self-care, emotional healing, and mental health support.

****

About the Host:
MJ Murray Vachon LCSW is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with more than 48,000 hours of therapy sessions and 31 years of experience teaching her Mental Wellness curriculum, Inner Challenge. Four years ago she overcame her fear of technology to create a podcast that integrated her vast clinical experience and practical wisdom of cultivating mental wellness using the latest information from neuroscience. MJ was Social Worker of the Year in 2011 for Region 2/IN.

Creating Midlife Calm is a podcast designed to guide you through the challenges of midlife, tackling issues like anxiety, low self-esteem, feeling unworthy, procrastination, and isolation, while offering strategies for improving relationships, family support, emotional wellbeing, mental wellness, and parenting, with a focus on mindfulness, stress management, coping skills, and personal growth to stop rumination, overthinking, and increase confidence through self-care, emotional healing, and mental health support.

Transcript

Ep.56 Mental Wellness & 6 Months of TikTok Block!!

[00:00:00] 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Welcome to the podcast today. The Inner Challenge Podcast had something really exciting happen. Maria Shriver and her team at The Sunday Paper chose the Inner Challenge podcast as their recommended pick of the week for what they were listening to. If you're a new listener welcome. And if you're a regular listener, I'm glad to have you back. We have a really exciting episode today. Most of you have heard me say many times we can't have mental wellness if we don't learn to manage our phones. Twenty years ago, there was no phone as we know it today. The use and the impact of this little device has spread so rapidly we didn't really have time to understand how to use it in a healthy and life-giving way. Since now it's monetized there are lots of conflicts between what's best for economics and what is best for human wellness. The phone perfectly interacts with our brain, giving us hits of dopamine, a neuromodulator that helps us to feel reward, pleasure and motivation. So, of course we want more of our phones. Many of us [00:01:00] have unlimited minutes and this has left each of us to figure out on our own how to manage our phone in ways that are good for us. Today's guest is doing just this. And for six months, I followed her journey of managing her phone. We had no idea how this will unfold, but we hope to learn from her important lessons, that all of us can apply in what seems to me to be a constant battle in using our phones in ways that do not negatively affect our relationships, our work-life our self-esteem and self-worth. Welcome to the podcast today.

Guest: I'm so happy to be here. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? 

Guest: Yes. I work full time remotely. I transitioned out of a career in the arts and now I'm in the business world. And I was struggling with phone overuse.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: We're going to jump into that in one second. But I often ask my guests to define Mental Wellness. [00:02:00] How do you define it? And when do you know you're mentally well? 

Guest: That's a great question. For me, I know I am personally am mentally well when the daily parts of my life, such as getting out of bed, taking a shower, eating healthy foods, I have the brain space to do those intentionally. I also feel when I'm Mentally well I am able to handle the waves of life with stability and ease. Even if they rock me, I still am able to get back up and pull myself up by the bootstraps and take care of myself in the ways I need to. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: That's a beautiful definition and that really leads us right into the topic that we are going to discuss with each other for the next six months. As I said in my introduction, you told me that you had made a pretty drastic [00:03:00] decision about your use of social media. Can you share that with our audience? 

Guest: Yes, during the very beginning of the pandemic, I, for the first time, downloaded TikTok. In addition to TikTok, had Facebook and Instagram and Snapchat but TikTok was the app I'd always dreamed of having. Recently what I have done is I have completely stopped my use of TikTok and Instagram on my phone. So, I've deleted both the apps, and I've also deleted, not on Instagram, but on TikTok, my account. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: That's a pretty powerful statement. TikTok is the app I've always dreamed of having. For our listeners who don't have TikTok, or never dreamed of having it, can you explain to them what it is? 

Guest: Oh gosh. So TikTok, on your phone, is an app that it covers the entire surface area of your screen. And it is very short videos. [00:04:00] So think of YouTube, but smaller, bite sized. The algorithm is so intelligent that the more you use it, it gives you more videos of things that you like. For me I'm really interested in how to cycle sync eat for my periods. And that is something that is on my Tik Tok. Or I'm really interested in the arts and I will get a very niche video about the specific type of art I'm interested in. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: When you say it's the app of your dream, that really mirrors what I said in my introduction, that dopamine is a neuromodulator in our brain. And what dopamine does is when we experience something that gives us pleasure, we get a hit of dopamine. When we want more of that pleasure, we get [00:05:00] motivated to seek it, and then we get another hit. And what I hear you saying is talking about the outside stimulus for this inside neurochemical process. Does that make sense? 

Guest: Yeah, that makes complete sense and makes me understand more why I love it.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Exactly. Cocaine does the same thing. It does. People use cocaine. They feel happier. They have motivation to have that happiness again. And that leads them into cocaine addiction. So, it's possible that you had TikTok addiction. I don't know if we diagnosed that.

Guest: I feel like that's accurate. It's been. two weeks now since I've had it, even how I talk about it sounds like an addiction. It's been two, two weeks since I've used Tik Tok and I can just still sense myself reaching for the phone in moments and missing these fake connections that I felt like I was building on Tik Tok.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: [00:06:00] So what made you decide to stop it? 

Guest: Honestly, I think one big factor was my boyfriend said to me, I noticed when you use your phone more, you're less happy. Usually that's a pattern I see. That's pretty big statement and I feel like I go through cycles of when I'm start to not feel as well, either physically or mentally, I use Tik Tok more. Since I work remotely it's a great break. I can do a couple things, reach on my phone, I'm pretty lonely because I'm working remote, and then I see all these people who I feel like I have friendships with but they don't know me. Him saying that was first a big part, but I also realized I felt something in my brain shift. Like I told you, I love the arts. I have been not doing many things in the arts the last two years. I also have noticed an overall lack of focus and lack of motivation and truly [00:07:00] feeling like Something is different in my brain and I can't figure out what it is. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Interesting. You were lucky enough to have someone who loved you do an intervention, right? You're obviously less happy when you use your phone and you were strong enough to not get defensive. Most of us might get defensive in that situation. And now you are on day 14, have you noticed anything this quickly? 

Guest: Yeah. I'm disappointed in some ways to say I've noticed things so quickly because there is a part of me who wanted nothing to change, so I could use the app again. I think the first biggest thing is my idle time. The moments that I could potentially be bored, I'm starting to fill in different ways. Whether it be folding that load of laundry or looking at a book. It's interesting. I'll always try to pick up my phone and go for the apps and then it becomes boring. So, I will [00:08:00] naturally move on to something else.

Guest: I'd say the other thing is my movement has really increased. And actually, even yesterday, I haven't done this for a really long time, I made this just for myself and for my close friends, this silly dance video that I recorded. And again, you'd think I'd put that on TikTok, but for me, the act of just playing with it, making it happen, and that creative energy just feels to be back a little bit more. I also feel like I am a little less short. I Have more patience for small things that are irritating. Whereas before, I feel like I'd get off the phone and I'd be depleted for some reason. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: This is a great start. Today is March 1st. We'll check back and we're going to do this for six months and we're going to see what you learn. If you decide to go back on TikTok, that's fine. There's no pressure to do it for this. That will be as [00:09:00] much of an interesting part of this experiment as if you stay off of it. 

Guest: Okay. That's awesome. I will let you know. I am committed to at least doing a month because I told myself if I do a month, I get to buy myself and expensive Lululemon pair of pants. So, I'm committed to a Month!. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: You're motivated to not do it, to get the reward. The difference is this is a long-term reward and TikTok is a short-term reward. That's great. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Welcome to the second installment of Tik Tok Block. One month ago, we talked to our guest who has decided for at least a month to not be on TikTok. We're going to pick up with where he left off. In all honesty, how's it gone? 

Guest: In a lot of ways, really great. I think it also helps right now that there are legal lawsuits against TikTok. I feel an even more sense of empowerment in the [00:10:00] fact that I felt something was not great about this for me. Of course, the government is more concerned about China than my mental well-being. That has been great to have a support in that. I still don't have it downloaded. I do miss it though. I would be lying if I said I didn't miss it but I miss it. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: For people who aren't following the government's investigation, can you give a little summary? 

Guest: I am not a legal expert, so I might get this wrong, but basically TikTok is owned by people in China and the thought is and actually it's proven that over time, China's manipulating what is going to be presented on TikTok to persuade people that democracy is not the answer. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Talk about what you think it's done for your [00:11:00] Mental Wellness. To not be on it for six weeks. 

Guest: First, I have gotten so much more done. I think first and foremost, I have been trying to I lose my COVID weight. When I stopped using the app, I saw a significant weight difference. That's when I started getting feedback from the person who's helping me with that journey that, oh my gosh, it's really working. I don't know what it was exactly, but my, Belief is I moved more because I wasn't using my in between breaks at work to do TikTok. First, from a mental perspective, I feel a lot healthier physically.

Guest: The other thing is TikTok, I would often think I was happier after, but the people in my life told me I was more Irritable, shorter and tired with them. I have asked the main [00:12:00] person who is with me the most is my boyfriend, am I any different than I was before? I won't be hurt if you're honest with me. He goes, you should never download the app again. You are so much easier to be around and you are so much happier. So that was hard to hear, right? Cause I've had that app the entire time I've dated him. But I was really proud of myself that I could, make my life better and the person I live with life better.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: What's it like when you realize that this app, which hit the country by a storm. It wasn't there one day, and it was everywhere the next. It is very fun. It is very joy filled. It was the app that was not going to do all the bad stuff that the other apps did. What's it like now, X number of years later, to realize, oh my God, in this insidious way, did some really bad [00:13:00] stuff?

Guest: Oh, god. It's really disappointing. Like we talked about last time, I got TikTok during the pandemic. It really made me feel connected and happier at a terrible time. And it feels like a giant lie. I think what also is so disappointing and concerning is that a lot of influencers I really like, livelihood is tied to it and I just don't trust it. I do feel like there's a level of being lied to and it reminds me of fast food or all these other things that have claimed to be one thing but are actually another. That's a hard pill to swallow, per se, but It's like any other type of drug. It seems wonderful. It seems great. But it does take some time to realize if it's good or bad.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: It really now is only coming to the surface that it is bad, perhaps, from how people [00:14:00] view the United States, how people view democracy. Not so much of what you were talking about, how it physically made you a couch potato for lack of a better word.

Guest: Gosh that's true. That's disappointing because you could argue in some ways people's health is just as important. Maybe more important. I think we don't want to talk about that because it's uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable and disappointing to hear from someone I love that I was worse using it. And I wish I didn't miss it at all, right? I wish I could say, Oh my, everything is perfect. I am so much better without it. I'm so much more productive. I'm happier. I feel like I'm smarter. I'm better when I talk to people now. But I still miss it and I miss the fun I got out of it.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Do you think it's easy fun? 

Guest: I think it's easy fun. That's a great way to put it.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: It's like fast food, easy [00:15:00] fun. In the moment, very satisfying. Long term, not so great. 

Guest: That's very true. Right now, in the month, I am not feeling my brightest. This is a great time to have this conversation because I think we would have talked a week ago. I would have been super bubbly and happy. But because I'm not feeling my best right now, this is when I went want the app the most. I didn't realize that till this moment because the dopamine hits are so awesome from it. And I have thought two or three times this week, I'll just download it for the week. That'll be fine. With Instagram, I redownloaded it for a day because I saw a pug in a store and I wanted to put it on my story. And you can't put things on your story unless it's on your phone. And right away, I deleted it again because I was like, you're just going to fall right down that trap. What I have noticed, and this has been helpful for me, is when you use either of these apps on your desktop [00:16:00] computer, they work terribly. what happens is I start to look at it, and it functionally isn't working well, so then I stop using it. That's been a helpful coping for right now when I want it. I use it for eight, 10 minutes and I'm like, this sucks. I can't scroll fast enough. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Is that Instagram or TikTok? 

Guest: Instagram. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: One thing you said last month that I wanted to follow up on is that you didn't use it just for fun, which was the primary purpose, but you also used it for some health concerns, like having a guide for cyclic eating?

Guest: Cycle syncing. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, honestly, I think what was valuable I learned from TikTok, was exposure to new artists, exposure to clothing lines or products I didn't really know about before. But when I think about the actual education I was learning from it, I didn't know if all those sources were really credible. What I filled my time instead of [00:17:00] with that kind of source material is seeking out, I think, stronger source material for things I'm actually interested in. Not that I wasn't interested in cycle syncing, but right now I'm reading a book about navigating change. I think right now in my life, that's probably a little bit more important than cycle syncing. Also, I haven't read since I finished my master's in the spring. That's another interesting thing to acknowledge that, since deleting the app, I've actually picked up a book and I'm not a person who really likes to read. That's a big shift because I want that knowledge. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: You want the knowledge. Reading is more work. And you come from a generation. where people have been able to get knowledge in a fairly easy kind of effortless way. 

Guest: That's very true. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: I think it's really wise of you to question sources because that's one of the problems that is true online. It's one of the problems [00:18:00] I think on TikTok, even on Instagram, that I see a lot of experts in the area of parenting and Mental Wellness. Maybe the only two areas that I know a lot about and I listened to what they're saying and I'm just like, that it is not developmentally accurate. Where are you getting this information? Yet they speak with such authority. Now, again, there's a lot of people online who I think are fabulous, but I don't know how someone who doesn't have a decent amount of education can sort through what is good and what isn't good. I think that's really astute of you to be able to say, I saw this on cyclic eating, but you don't even know if it's medically accurate.

Guest: Yeah, that's so true. Even with that example, I started focusing my energy on probably the wrong thing. While this whole time I have someone who's helping me with my nutrition, I just need to listen to her. I don't need to have ten more sources. And it's also just not helpful for me to look at [00:19:00] these women who have these bodies that they are wonderful, they are beautiful, but I just don't think that's going to ever be achievable for me in my lifetime. Which is fine, but I am not an eating or fitness influencer. I don't have the time to dedicate it to. I think it's interesting though, that you would think from having this source that seemingly gives me all this quick information, that it wasn't until after I stopped using it, I started really progressing in some of these goals. I was really trying to use TikTok to help me with. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: That's really interesting. Sad, right? 

Guest: Yeah, it really is sad. Also, I'm able to look at myself in a little bit more of a positive way. It's not that I don't want these women to be beautiful. I'm so happy. They're so beautiful. But I think when you see 40 women who are ripped and have their makeup done and their hair done and are in the cutest gym outfit, you're like, shoot, I don't do any of that when I go to the gym and I don't even want to be there. [00:20:00] And they're still recording themselves there that I think it, even if I didn't realize it at the time, it just 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: that's a great point. I want to share a story that Demi Moore, you probably don't even know who she is. She was an actress. Do you know her? She was in the movie Strip Tease and she was on a late-night show, David Letterman. And David Letterman said to her, Demi, you're in this movie and you have this perfect body. Every woman who sees you, every man who looks at you says, Oh my God, she's so perfect. And I'm so awful. What would you say to them? And she laughed and she said, I would say to them that it took nine months with eight professionals, four full time cooks six trainers. And then when I got there, they had to have so many cameras, so much lighting, and there was still one side [00:21:00] of my body that they could never shoot because it wasn't perfect. And they paid me 11 million dollars. And I would say to anybody, don't do it for a penny less. And that's one of the things that you tied to wisely earlier is that many people are making their income. This is their job. So, they show up looking that way because this is what they do for a profession.

Guest: Yes. That's so true. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Which connects to my next question I want to ask you. One of the biggest changes I've seen in the last five years is the people that are my clients who also manage people are having a really hard time getting all ages motivated. My clients who are also consumers talk every day in my office about going to a particular office, a pharmacy, whatever, and mistake after mistake being made. I wonder in your little six week [00:22:00] experiment, do you feel like your level of productivity is better and your level of efficiency and effort is better?

Guest: Not to toot my own horn, but I think so. If I think about all the things I've been able to get done, maybe not even thinking about work, just from taking care of myself perspective, I do think they've become better. I am a person who tends to be a little bit more scattered. But there have been several tasks such as getting my tires changed or getting shoes. I hate shoe shopping, that I've been able to do. So, I would say yes, but I do feel like every week I get better. I think there is something about the app that takes time to recover from. I feel if you talk to me again in several weeks, which we probably will, I'll be even better. Because I do feel like I'm still making some errors. I think [00:23:00] also there have been times in the past where I had a really hard time when I had a list of things to do to even start. I like was overwhelmed by everything to begin with. And something has happened in the last couple of weeks where I've just been like, okay, just do that one. Just do that one. Just do that one. And that's been great. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: We're going to stop there and I want to pick up in another month. Do you think you're going to do it for another month? 

Guest: Yeah, I feel like I've come this far now and it's helpful to have these check ins too cause it's making me stay accountable. Especially just by having such a resounding positive, response from several people in my life. I'm a very externally motivated person that has, it makes me want to try another month. I think I've also learned that the couple things I do miss from the app, I'm finding ways to still find them. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Thank you so much.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: It is May 1st, and this will be the third time that we touch base [00:24:00] with our guest who has chosen to TikTok block. So, how's it going? 

Guest: Going good. I still don't have TikTok. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Wow. I know. Wow. So, tell us about it. 

Guest: I have a slight confession is that I've been finding alternative things to fill the TikTok time. Instead of using TikTok, what I've now started to use a little bit more is Instagram. So, I feel like, especially when I think start to get really busy and I start to feel not as great. It's a great relaxation thing. I initially got Instagram back because there was something that I wanted to share in a story and you can't do that if you don't have it on your phone and then it just stayed there, so I'm thinking I need to delete it again, but The problem is these apps don't work well on your computer, but you [00:25:00] still need to have them. It feels like to be a part of society. So that's what I'm wrestling with. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: When you first got off TikTok, you talked about feeling happier, feeling more productive. Now you're using Instagram, are you using it in the same way that you use TikTok? And are you having those kinds of feelings of not being productive, not as happy?

Guest: Yeah I don't, because it's not as addictive of an app for me. The algorithm on TikTok gives you so much of what you want that Instagram just hasn't caught up to that ability, I think. It's much easier to stop using it. I don't think about watching Instagram in the same way I've thought about watching TikTok. But I do feel this slight sense of not being in certain social things that are happening on TikTok. And that is a little frustrating. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Can you give an example of that? 

Guest: There was, this [00:26:00] is more of a media situation, but there was a conspiracy or a backlash at an influencer I really like, and they had done an ad through TikTok, and I found out about it like, a week later, right? That doesn't really matter though I would say that's the first one. The second one is, I was talking to one of my teammates at work who's a little younger than me, but she's always going to really great events. And I said to her, how are you finding out about these events? Every weekend you come back and share something and I wish I could have gone to that. And she said she finds them all through TikTok. Those two moments made me like, ah, I wish there was a way that I could do this app in a happy medium, but you just don't feel like there is that way. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: I did tell you I would find out the neuroscience. Today I did a podcast with a student who's a neuroscience major and she has studied this. I also read the book, Dopamine Nation in honor of [00:27:00] this particular episode. It's quite simple: these apps flood our brain with dopamine. So, when you do a normal daily task and you get it done, you get a little hit of dopamine, but the apps like Tik Tok and all the social media apps, as you have said, they're so perfectly wired to our brain. It's really waterboarding our brain with dopamine. The problem is our brain isn't really intended to deliver that much dopamine. And when it does, the after effect is irritation and low mood because the brain then has to work really hard to replace the dopamine. Because it's unloaded it. That's the cycle, but the addictive part of it is that you build up a tolerance and that initial feeling of happiness and bliss, you begin to chase it. Then you're always chasing that initial [00:28:00] good feeling just like a drug addict. It's so interesting, as you said, and experts do agree, TikTok is perfectly designed to do this. It really becomes completely up to the user to manage it.

Guest: That makes a lot of sense. I think the last time we talked, there was a lot in the news about how bad TikTok might be. That was really helpful because I felt like, this is the right thing to do. But when you have these moments of, I guess we call it FOMO, right? Or, not being up to date with the newest everything. Just even from being in the workforce, I feel concerned. I don't want to be behind. I don't want to not be as smart as everyone. I don't know if that's really honest, if I really won't be as smart as everyone, but I will miss out on some of the, quickest news. But again, is it truth? Is it accurate? There's just a way to counter it both [00:29:00] ways. I think everything you said makes complete sense. I think back to my day yesterday, I had a really intense week the week before, and Friday I gave myself at night time to play on the computer, do some of that kind of stuff, play on Instagram, Saturday I did some of that, and then Sunday I didn't really want to. I think part of that, maybe because TikTok was so great, that going back to Instagram just feels oh, this isn't as good as what that was, if that makes sense. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Absolutely. The other thing that you're talking about is that one of the hardest parts about living in the United States right now, and probably in the world, is we have a culture that is based on people consuming. really unhealthy things for them, whether it's food, whether it's alcohol and drugs, whether it's social media. This requires each individual to be able to have [00:30:00] their own willpower to manage these things, even though built into all of them are things that make it really hard to have willpower. We know that many processed foods have additives that shut off the satiation in our body. People don't feel full and they can continue to eat. It is similar with the social media apps. I think it's a bit like everybody having a car, but there isn't a road system that is designed to keep each person safe. Imagine what it would be like if you had to drive and there weren't stop lights, there weren't stop signs. You had to drive and you had to figure that out while you were going 40 or 60 miles an hour. I think it's helpful to understand it and to look at it in that way, that you're really trying to figure out, how do I have this in my life where it isn't addictive, it doesn't get in the way of me working. And one of the things you're saying is, how do [00:31:00] you know if you're tricking yourself or not? How do you know if it really affects your smarts? How do you know if it really affects your social life?

Guest: That's it right on the nose, and I think my, I'm quiet with myself and deep, deep down, I think the reverse effects are probably more, the effects of using it, the loss of concentration, the event missing, I'm sure there's another way to find it, but I do think TikTok is different because again, it's so perfect. Having Instagram, having Facebook, having LinkedIn, even Twitter these are things you have to have from a professional standpoint to connect with certain people. I think it's truly figuring out the way, like you said, to make it manageable, but nothing is going to make it easy. It takes a lot of strategy. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: We've hit our 10-minute point we'll check in again. I would really encourage you to keep wrestling the beast and to understand that I [00:32:00] really believe those in your generation who are going to be the most successful and happy are those that figure out how to manage their phone and how to manage social media apps in particular. I really appreciate you sharing this journey with us.

Guest: You're welcome. I'll see you again. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Here we are, I want to welcome back my guest who five and a half months ago started what I'm calling TikTok block. We have touched base every so often to get an update on how's it going with you and trying to figure out how to have social media in your life in a healthy way. 

Guest: I still don't have TikTok. I have kept it off my phone. I will be honest; I still miss it. I think that's the first biggest thing to report to you.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Wow. That's an achievement. What do you think is significant as far as five and a half months without TikTok? Remind me, are you off all social media or just TikTok?

Guest: Just TikTok. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Okay, you still miss [00:33:00] it. Any positives to report after almost a half a year? 

Guest: I should have led with that. I think the biggest thing is my movement has increased so much. Something about TikTok that is different than Instagram and Facebook, it's much easier to lose track of time. The other social media platforms, they're just not as pleasing. I found myself, going on more walks, doing a lot more activities, going to meet people. My focus has been much better. I think every aspect of my life has really improved. I've been able to lose some weight. I really wanted to lose, which I don't think we could say is just Tik Tok, but None of that hurt at all. I think it really gave my brain and my time the ability to do more of what I needed to do.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: From your perspective, that's amazing, correct? This was just something you really did out of frustration.

Guest: I think what's interesting about it there's part of me now that can see some of the same patterns in the [00:34:00] other social medias I'm using. There's part of me that, wants to continue to push it further. It really is awesome and it's really striking how powerful that one specific app is, to me at least.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Do you have any guesses why it's so much more difficult to get off of it? 

Guest: Of course, it gives you dopamine but I can just say from a not neuroscience perspective it's the algorithm. You're continually getting content that is exactly what you wanted. It's so smart and it knows about certain niches eventually that you're interested in and feeds you that content. I think also something about how it looks visually, this is your entire screen. And it's pretty simple. You don't have to navigate as much like the other apps. I think all of those combined are really perfect for making it addicting. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: [00:35:00] What have you replaced it with?

Guest: One thing has just been more activities. Usually after work, I would right away go to TikTok to have a break. I will definitely say sometimes I'm using Instagram or something like LinkedIn to kill a little time. But then I get bored of it. And often I'll go to an event or go to a dance class or find someone to do something with. Because the other apps get boring and it's good to be bored I think in those moments of downtime, I really think about what I'd actually like to be doing and try to do those.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: So, if you still miss it, I would assume you've had moments where you thought about downloading it again. 

Guest: Yes. Yes. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: How have you navigated those within yourself? 

Guest: I think one thing I do is have Instagram. The couple influencers I really liked on TikTok; I'll just go look at their Instagram because most of that content will be there. I remember how bad I felt often [00:36:00] after I used it, how tired I felt, and also the feedback I got from people around me about how I was much more difficult. I don't usually think of myself as a difficult person But I don't want to be that way with anyone especially those I'm closest with so I think I'm okay I spent this many months doing this I feel so much better that I don't want to go back. I think also a lot of the research that's come out about this isn't an American app. This is an app from China. I just think there's a lot we don't know about it. That kind of always made me not want the app at the beginning.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Since we first met, I had three intakes with people who had a fairly acute episode of depression. Sometimes depression sneaks up on people, but sometimes people tell me , three weeks ago I felt great. I always assess people's social media usage and phone usage, [00:37:00] I asked them to show me and their usage daily for the last two weeks when they showed me was somewhere between nine and fifteen hours. Each of them were different. I actually told them about what you were doing and invited them to think about doing it themselves. Two of the three did it. They went down to two hours or less total and came back in two weeks almost embarrassed. Then I had them read Dopamine Nation or they could listen to my podcast episode 43 Cell Phones and Mental Wellness. Because this is what we know, is that over -usage does make us depressed and anxious. That's really what I hear you saying. One of the hard parts is so often cultivating Mental Wellness is not just what we do. It's what we don't do. Part of what you're saying is you ran this experiment and then when you miss it, you have a substitute that doesn't hook you in as much, but also you remind yourself how crappy you felt. 

Guest: Yeah, [00:38:00] I think that's completely right. I've just worked so hard on other aspects of my life that have really improved after not using the app anymore. I don't want to go backward,

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: that's great. This has been really interesting because I didn't expect you to be off of it completely for five and a half months. I thought you would go cold turkey and then go back. I think one of the wise things you're saying is it isn't really an app that's easy to outsmart because it is known as the smartest of all social media apps as far as sucking people in. 

Guest: Yeah I'm also a person I can't have potato chips in the house because I know I will eat them all. I think it's one of those things that once I begin. I won't be able to stop and I'm sure there's people in the world who have incredible self-control and I do have incredible self -control because I haven't downloaded the app again, but maybe I'm just being more honest with [00:39:00] myself about it. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: So much of Mental Wellness is good self-care and we really often minimize or lie to ourself or avoid our own self-care and what we're actually doing. I want to give you a 400 cheers. Five pats on the back. As we end, anything you want to say. 

Guest: Honestly, your advice on really monitoring your phone usage is huge. I can't believe the difference. I definitely feel like I have ways to improve. I just feel so much better. Just say try for a month. I found the first two weeks awful. After that, it was pretty easy. Try it and really be honest with how you feel before, during and after. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Thank you so much for all that you have shared with our listeners, not just today, but for the last six months, it has really been helpful. 

Guest: Thank you. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Here are my Inner Challenge Insights: 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Insight Number One 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Perhaps the most powerful statement that my guests said today [00:40:00] was an insight that easily could have gone unnoticed. She said," I see all these people on social media, who I feel like I have friendships with, but they don't even know me." Let me say that again. I see all these people who I feel like I have friendships with, but they don't know me. In a nutshell. Isn't that the problem with much of social media. We feel like we're friends, but let's be honest, would Taylor Swift come sit with me in the hospital like my friend Raji did when my husband was having surgery? Those cute cats that I love to watch. They don't sit in my lap and cuddle like Oliver does. Would Dr. Becky come and babysit for my great niece When her brothers have to be at swimming. Probably not. Real people need real people. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Insight number two. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: As you figured out, I taped these episodes starting in February of 2023 and ending in August of 2023. I called our guest yesterday, 11 months after she took TikTok off her phone to get an [00:41:00] update. She said. Things are still the same. She's not using Tik TOK, but surprisingly, she still misses it. Every few weeks, she thinks about putting it back on her phone, but she reminds yourself of how much better she feels not using it. Sounds like an abusive relationship to me. The attraction is still there but she knows it's not good for her. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Insight number three. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Maybe the scariest thing today's guests said was this. Something was different in my brain. I could just tell. Yep! After one month her brain was less irritable, more productive, and she was able to concentrate better. Our mind is meant to be peaceful, happy, and alert. It takes a lot of courage to admit that your brain has been hijacked. By yourself. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Insight number four. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: The good humanitarian award goes to this guest’s boyfriend who told her the truth. That I can [00:42:00] handle truth award goes to this guest. Do you know how many times I have couples in my office where one says you're addicted to the phone, it's changed you. The person completely blows off their partners observation. Only a real person could say that to a real person. Give truth to chance. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Insight number five. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: My whole professional life has been committed to mental health. I can't help, but wonder if part of the mental health crisis we're now facing is much more related to our overuse of devices than we care to admit. Real people need real people. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Thanks for listening and spend the day with real people. Go ahead. Take the challenge. TikTok block. This is your Inner Challenge.[00:43:00]