When Should Christians Divide? | A Holy Divide

In this episode of the Speaking Your Lingo Podcast, Shane Lingo wrestles with a challenging but essential question: When are Christians called to pursue unity, and when is division actually necessary?

Shane dives into biblical teaching on unity, explores the tension between truth and harmony, and examines why sometimes division is not only unavoidable but required for holiness and the health of the Church. Using insights from Scripture, early church fathers like St. Ignatius, and practical examples for today’s culture, this episode helps Christians think clearly about controversial topics without compromising love or truth.

Topics covered include:

• What true Christian unity looks like and why it’s a byproduct, not a goal
• How to navigate division over sin, false teaching, and destructive behavior
• The importance of speaking hard truths in love
• Why debate and controversy are necessary for clarity in the Church and society
• Applying biblical principles to cultural issues and moral clarity

Whether you’re a believer seeking guidance on living faithfully in a divided world or just curious about how Scripture handles unity and division, this episode offers clarity, conviction, and hope.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Welcome to the Speaking Your Lingo podcast, where my goal is to help this generation. Thank you well. My name is Shane Lingo, and today we are going to be wrestling with an important question. When are Christians called to pursue unity and when is division necessary? Now, before we get into that, a couple of updates that I want to mention. First, I'm excited about this. This is my first time recording for YouTube and other video platforms. And so instead of just hearing my voice, uh, you're gonna get the full experience and you'll get to see my face, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. We'll see if this is all a good decision, but super excited to be able to bring this not just audio, but ultimately to bring it to video. Uh, life update. We recently just moved to Texas, and so we're out here in Texas, and uh a few things that might mean for the podcast. First, you might hear me saying a lot more y'alls. Uh, y'all is big out here, and so you might hear some of my language change as I'm trying to fit in down here in Texas. Uh, it gets very hot here, and uh, so maybe you'll start seeing me sweating on the podcast. Uh, hopefully not. Uh got a new recording space. You can see my recording space behind me, what it looks like. And so I'm excited about that to have this new space to record, um, which is which is part of the reason why I'm able to do video. So excited about that, excited to be down here in Texas and uh to be jumping in here. So, with all that said, let's dive in and talk about today's main focus for the episode. So, unity. Uh, you know, there's a lot of talk about unity in America today, and I think it's because people are fed up with the division, the polarization, the constant political fighting, the distrust of our institutions, all of the arguing that happens all over social media. And underneath all of that is kind of this feeling that we're not really listening to one another. And so, that being said, I recently saw a tweet by the lead singer of Disturbed. His name is David Draymond. And um, maybe you guys remember Disturbed from back in the day. Maybe you're still listening to Disturbed, but um, you know, it's the band that uh, you know, sings that song. Uh wa uh uh okay. Um that was only a little bit embarrassing. And the worst part is I practice beforehand. But um, you know who I'm talking about, anyways. David Draymond, lead lead singer of Disturbed, he made a call for this Unity Music Festival that would feature kid rock in Bad Bunny. And you guys probably remember the whole Super Bowl debacle. It's only been about a month, but the NFL had Bad Bunny lead the halftime show. And then on the other side, you had TP USA who decided to create their own alternative halftime show that would be more family friendly, um, more connected with American values, things like that. And now Draymond is going to respond um to what's going on in the culture by calling for this Unity Music Festival. And so I want to pull up the tweet and we're gonna we're gonna look at this tweet together. He said this here's a radical idea. Music should be a bridge between all people, the identity politics, partisan garbage, and division need to stop. And let me pause right here for a sec. I get, you know, his desire to stop the division, uh, getting irritated with all the the political the politics and the atmosphere that we see in America today. Like I get his call for unity there. So he he keeps going though. Let's keep going through this. I challenge any organization out there to put on a festival that has Bad Bunny, Kid Rock, and all other kinds of acts from different sides of the political spectrum sharing the same stage. So he's trying to create a sense of unity here. He says, Everyone can showcase their respective cultures and backgrounds, fuse music elements together, perform together, celebrate life together. And then he says this line, and I really like this line. He says, push back against the darkness together. And I really like this idea of pushing back against the darkness together. I like that language. I think that's important. But here's a challenge I want to talk about. It's in order to push back against the darkness together, we actually have to agree on what the darkness is. Like we have to be able to come to an agreement on where the darkness is coming from and what that darkness is, and then we can move forward to pushing back the darkness together. Uh and we're gonna come back to that, but let's let's keep going. He continues on, he says, it can be an opportunity to share and appreciate the respective cultures that gave birth to each artist's unique form of entertainment. Music can unite people like nothing else in creation. It's beyond time. We remembered that. And I like that idea too. The idea that music can unite people like nothing else in creation. I think he's spot on there. There's something special about music that really can unite people. And it and I think that's important. But at the same time, here's the challenge when we come back to that idea as far as pushing back the darkness together and really this whole idea of unity that he's talking about. The challenge is in order to do that, we have to again agree on what the darkness is. Like, what is the darkness? Because, according to one side, the darkness is poor gender ideology, and those that are trying to push that poor gender ideology into schools and into sports. And so that's darkness that that we need to push back against. Whereas you have this other side of those who kind of they want that stuff into schools, and they're trying to push that gender ideology into that poor gender ideology, is what I'd call it. They're trying to push that into sports, they're trying to get men into women's sports. So you have these two opposed sides that really have these fundamentally different worldviews and these fundamentally, you know, different value systems. You can't really create unity around those things. And so my point is when you have these completely different value systems and you disagree on what right and wrong is, it's not as easy as just hopping on a stage together. And it's not as easy as just pushing back the darkness together. And unifying around music or unifying around the idea that we're alive just isn't enough. It's just not enough. Now, before we go further, we need some clarity. So let's begin with a basic question. What do we mean by unity? And what I want to do is I want to pull up first off, like a de uh a dictionary definition that we can look at where we can kind of talk about this idea of unity. And so uh if you look at Colin's dictionary, and there's tons of dictionaries online that you could look at that give different definitions, many definitions out there, but one that they they all kind of seem to have in common is it's the state of being one or united oneness or singleness. So this kind of idea of uniting together to become one or oneness. Then you also have, if you if you look at collins.com, like if you look at the the third option down, this idea, the quality of being one in spirit, sentiment, purpose, harmony, agreement, um, kind of this idea of unifying or uniformity together, right? And I think these, if we kind of look at these different definitions, we start to get an idea of what people are desiring, desiring and what they want when they are calling for this idea of unity. Now, that's how some dictionaries define it, but I want to specifically narrow in and I want to talk about Christian unity. You know, the the New Testament, throughout the New Testament, you see different calls for unity. And there's something about biblical unity, I would say, that is frequently misunderstood within the church today. So the real question becomes when are Christians called to pursue unity and when is division actually necessary? And to answer that today, I want to look at two key passages. And there are many other passages we could examine and look at, but I think these two passages help kind of frame the conversation well and give us some clarity. So let's dive in and look at a couple of examples from the New Testament. And the first example from the New Testament that I want to look at is in the book of Romans. And so as I pull up the book of Romans, Romans chapter 14, verses 1 through 12 are kind of where we're going to focus at um for this passage. And one of the things that's important to understand about the book of Romans in the context is that the Apostle Paul was writing this letter to the church in Rome. And what was going on during this time period is at one point, the the Jewish Christians in the church had been essentially kicked out of Rome by Emperor Claudius. And so they were, they were kicked out of Rome by Claudius. And then eventually those same Jewish Christians were allowed to come back. And the challenge within the church, the reason there wasn't unity, is because now you have these Gentile Christians who were leading the church. And so they were in charge. And as these Jewish Christians come back into the church, things had changed. And instead of having more of a kind of Jewish cultural focus and adhering to the law a little bit more, now you have this situation where you have these Gentile Christians and they are the ones that are leading the church. And this just creates some tension as these Christians are trying to do life together from these different backgrounds. And now you have different leadership in place. So that is the context where Paul is writing to. And I want to listen, I want us to listen to what the Apostle Paul had to say. So he says this as for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. And so you have these Jewish Christians, and this is kind of a similar context to what we see in First Corinthians, where uh the weak Christian is the one who is abstaining from eating certain things because they feel like it violates God's law. Okay, and so you have one person who believes they can eat anything, you have one person who eats only vegetables. He continues on Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or fall, and he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all the days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his mind. So, in other words, what Paul is getting at here is he's saying, Don't let secondary issues and opinions divide you. If your conscience is telling you to abstain from something and that, even though it's not commanded in scripture or something like that, abstain from it. And don't condemn others uh who don't have the same perspective perspective as you, who aren't abstaining from those things. And so, to kind of bring this as an example in our modern day, um, for example, I have chosen not to drink alcohol. I've never drank an alcohol. And part of that is just what I saw growing up when people drank, how it affected them and the fighting it could cause. Uh, I also come from a family that has an addictive personality in a lot of ways. And so I myself have carried that. So I have decided to just stay away. And that was completely a wisdom decision that I felt like it was wise for me. But the majority of my friends drink. And in fact, they drink when when we're together. And that does not cause an issue. There's no issue there, right? Because this is really a secondary issue when it comes to alcohol. Um, as long as you're not, you know, getting drunk or becoming a drunkard, which the Bible makes clear that those things are sinful, uh, drinking is is fine. So I have this personal conviction where I've decided to abstain or, you know, stay away from drinking alcohol. And yeah, I have many friends uh who are Christians who do drink alcohol, and that there's no problem there because it's really a secondary issue. And uh the desire is that they wouldn't judge me. And the desire here is that I wouldn't judge them for those same decisions. And so I guess if you look at this scenario, I would be considered uh the weaker brother because I have decided to take kind of the more firm stance, and they uh in this, in this sense, you could say, are you know the stronger brother or whatever, because they are experiencing this freedom that they have, the freedom in Christ that they can drink, right? So the point is, but both sides are not to judge each other. Another example in our modern day that you could say is like a secondary issue is entertainment, what we choose to watch, or another secondary issue is like, what do we choose to wear and what are we allowed to wear? And each of those things obviously can go into sin, but there's also kind of this gray area as far as what should be allowed and what should be permissible. And I think if Paul was here today, he would say, hey, don't let those things divide you. These are again secondary issues. Um, and so we don't want to let these secondary issues divide the church. Now, the next passage that I want to look at comes out of the book of Ephesians, and uh we're gonna jump into Ephesians chapter four. And this is what the apostle Paul says. He says, I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, one spirit, just as you were called to one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. And so what we see here is Paul is urging believers to walk with humility, to walk in gentleness, to walk in patience, bearing with one another in love. And really, when we look at these things like humility and gentleness and patience, these are the breeding grounds for unity. And I love this line, this idea of eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. And so, one of the important things that we see in this passage is that unity flows from shared truth. You have this idea of one body, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father over all. And so you have you have this unity that shares from this and flows from this shared truth that we have together as Christian, Christians. And so unity in the church is centered around our shared beliefs, around Christ Himself. That is where the unity comes from. And this is important because it's not just unity for the sake of unity, which I'm gonna get into a little bit more in just a bit, but it's not unity for the sake of unity. It's centered, it's unity that's centered on Jesus. It's unity that's centered on God's word. And this actually leads to the quote of the day, which I'm excited to look at. And the more I read this guy, the more I appreciate what he has to say. And so uh today, normally I would kind of make you guess on who the who the theologian is, but today I'm just gonna give you who it is, and then we're gonna dive into the quote together. And so um the quote comes from A.W. Tozer, who lived from 1897 to 1963. He was an American pastor, theologian, and known for his two most famous books, The Pursuit of God, and then he also wrote a book called The Knowledge of the Holy. And so I want to read a passage out of the pursuit of God. And if you're if you're looking at A.W. Tozer, if you're looking at this book, you could find it in chapter seven. But he has this great analogy that I want to draw from. He says, This has it ever occurred to you that 100 pianos, all tuned to the same fork, are automatically tuned to each other. They are of one accord by being tuned not to each other, but to another standard to which one must individually bow. So 100 worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become unity conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship. And so what we see here as we look at this passage from Tozer is that Tozer kind of he gives this analogy where you have several pianos that are being tuned with this tuning fork. And I'm not a musician and you know, I don't I don't play the piano or anything like that. But the way it works is you have this tuning fork that if you hit, it creates a certain frequency or a certain pitch. And then you can take a piano and you can tune each piano to that tuning fork. But the important part of this is each piano is not tuned by essentially tuning that not tuned by taking that piano and tuning it to the other pianos. Instead, each is tuned to that single tuning fork, an external fixed standard. And that's the important part. The tuning fork is this external standard, it's fixed, it is consistent, it is something that you can count on and you can look to. And so the unity of pianos is not created by comparison to one another, right? It's created by submission to that same standard. Okay. Now, this means that Christian unity, when we look at Christian unity and we we connect it to this analogy, Christian unity is a byproduct. It happens when individuals are centered on Christ and his truth. Okay. It's in other words, unity is the result, and it's uh it's not the aim. If believers unite around this idea of just getting along, or they unite around the idea or just the name Christian with no substance underneath it, according to Tozer, the harmony won't hold. But if they unite around Christ, his character, his authority, his word, then unity becomes something that's organic. It becomes something that's lasting. And as I was thinking about this analogy, I want to take it a little bit further. If you have one of those piano and it dri pianos and it drifts out of tune, you don't retune it by trying to match all of the other pianos to the piano that went out of tune. You bring that piano back to the standard. You tune it, you retune it again to the uni, you uh that are the you return it, you retune it by bringing it back to that original tuning fork. And then you will have this unity, right? And so essentially, unity is preserved not by adjusting the standard, but by returning to that original standard. And this actually brings up attention I want to talk about. This is precisely where I would say many modern churches struggle. Because instead of letting Christ and his word be the standard, churches sometimes adjust to other reference points, other reference points. So, for example, cultural comfort, what's comfortable with our culture, or what does our culture see as comfortable? And so we're gonna kind of move towards that. Or they might kind of adjust their standard to avoid offense. I don't want to offend anyone, so I'm gonna kind of adjust the standard to make sure that doesn't happen. Or they're looking at other larger churches, trends and larger ministries or mega churches, and what are they doing? And so I'm gonna adjust the standard over here. Not that we can't get ideas, obviously, from other churches on how to connect with people or attract people or better connect with our culture. But sometimes that shift is so far that instead of looking at Christ as the thing that should tune us, we look to these other standards. And so the desire is unity, but unity preserved as an end in itself will not hold. It won't last, right? And so what I would say is this unity is a powerful good, but it's a secondary good. It's it's not ultimate, right? Truth is ultimate, Christ is ultimate, holiness. These things are ultimate. Again, unity itself is not an ultimate standard. And when you have unity and it's elevated above truth and it's elevated above holiness, what ends up happening is our values become disordered. They they they are no longer in the order that they're meant to be, and we start emphasizing unity above these things, and then we get off track and we lose all of it. We could lose holiness, we could lose truth, and then we also lose unity altogether. And I think that's one of the things that we're seeing happening in the American church today. So, one of the things that I would say is before we ever call for unity in the church in America or anywhere, we must first ask what are we going to unify around? If we're gonna say, hey, we want, we want to unify, we need Unity, we have to ask that question. What are we going to unify around? And my argument is simple Christians shouldn't pursue unity for the sake of unity. In other words, Christians shouldn't pursue unity as an independent goal. We pursue Christ. And when we are centered on Him, unity follows. But even that has to be clarified. And even that has to, we have to understand even more around that. But that is that is the goal. Christ is the tuning fork. His word is the tuning fork. And if we are centered around that, then the hope is that unity will come. And so once we understand that unity is rooted in truth, we're ready to face the harder question. When does faithfulness require division? This is the other half of the question. And so to help answer that, we're going to look to God's word and we're going to go to 1 Corinthians chapter five. And in this passage, we find an interesting situation in the church of in Corinth. And this is one of those situations that we read about in the Bible that makes us feel like, okay, maybe things aren't crazier today than they were back then. And it helps us kind of give context for our culture when we when we look at passages like this. So the situation that was happening within the church in Corinth was you had this man who was sleeping with his father's wife. And the passage seems to make it clear that the it was his father's wife, but it was a stepmom. So it's not like he was sleeping with his mom, but he was sleeping with his his stepmom. And we're going to see how the apostle Paul responds to this situation in the midst of this. And so let's look at the passage together. It says this He says, It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans. And so let's pause there for a sec because he's like, The kind of sexual immorality we're seeing here, even the pagans are looking at this like, whoa, what what are you guys doing? He continues on, for a man has his father's wife. And then he says, and you are arrogant. Not only that, but you guys are kind of proud of this. You guys are celebrating this, it seems like. And and and that's not the way it should be. He continues on, ought you not rather to mourn? In other words, Paul saying, Shouldn't this make you sad? Shouldn't this create some sort of tension within you guys and maybe even a little bit of an uproar against this situation? He continues on, let him who has done this be removed from among you. He says, Okay, this needs we need to create a separation here. There needs to be division here for the sake of the church. And jumping down to verse five, he continues on and he says, This you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. And so now Paul is, as we're looking at this, he says, You need, again, this there needs to be a division. You need to be set apart from this guy because of the sins he's committing and how it's negatively affecting the church. And um, the reality is you can't have anything to do with this type of sexual immorality. But what I like here is in this passage, the apostle Paul is going to make a clarification. And this is a helpful clarification for us today when we're thinking about this idea of division and how we deal with sin in these matters. So jumping down to verse nine, he says this. He says, I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. So I've already I've told you this, but not at all, meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and the swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to get out of the world. In other words, he's saying, I'm not asking you to treat non-Christians like Christians. This this command that I'm giving you is to essentially create division with Christians who are promoting or supporting these things and who are living out these things. Not for non-Christians. The way that we treat non-Christians, essentially, we can't expect non-Christians to act like Christians. And so this is a command to create this type of division when it's a Christian that is living in these sins. He says, But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother. So that's where he makes that clear. If he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, not even to eat with such a one. Okay. Wow. So he puts this division like, I you shouldn't even be eating with people like this. Okay. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Again, going back to this argument that, hey, it's not our job to judge those outside the church in this way. This is us looking inside the church at those who bear the name Christian. Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside, purge the evil person from among you. And so this passage makes something unmistakably clear. Unity cannot be preserved at the expense of holiness. In other words, unity is not good if it causes you to ignore sin. And really, what we see at that point, separation is not a failure of love, but it's what love and obedience require of us is to create that type of separation. And so if there is persistent unrepentant sin and the person refuses correction, the church is called to create separation. And if others actively defend or normalize that sin, division may have to extend to those people as well who are actually defending and supporting the person in their sin. And so Paul calls for removal, not because unity doesn't matter, but because holiness does. Division isn't the goal, but it is the consequence of the situation. In other words, it's not the desired outcome, but in some cases, the apostle Paul would say it's a necessary one. This is something that we have to do because of the situation that we're in and because of people's choices. And so this is what we might call a holy divide, separation for the sake of faithfulness. And this is important because I feel like in some churches today, they'd be like, Paul, whoa, hey, what are you doing? And that's because in our cultural moment, division is often seen as an ultimate failure. You know, we're trained to kind of prioritize inclusion and emotional safety above everything else. And I would say that this is disordered. So if the apostle Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 5 today, I think some would accuse him of maybe being too harsh, or would they accuse him of being unkind or of failing to understand the deeper story that was going on in the background or what this guy was feeling. And I bring this up because I would say, of course, we should seek to understand. You know, of course we we should be patient. Of course, we should examine our own hearts first. But understanding someone's struggle doesn't require us to redefine sin. And it definitely doesn't c it shouldn't cause us to ignore sin altogether, especially within the church. Because when we when we look at a situation like this, love does not mean silence, especially when sin is in the picture. And so what it really means is it means truth spoken in love. It means clarity. And I would say, unfortunately, if I'm being honest, this is what many Christian leaders in our society are afraid to do. They're afraid to speak the truth in love because they're afraid of maybe the division that that might cause. Now, 1 Corinthians 5 isn't the only example where we see this take place. And there are other places in the New Testament where division is commanded, not for its own sake, but for the sake of holiness. And so I want to look at another passage in the book of Romans. And so we got to look at that passage in the book of Romans just a little bit ago, and we understand the context of the division that Paul was speaking to when he spoke to the church. And now he's going to look at division for the purpose of those who are creating false teachings within the church. And so he says this. And this is Romans 16, uh, 17 and 19 are the verses we're going to look at. And he says this I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught. He says, avoid them. And notice the irony here, right? Avoiding divisive false teachers may itself create visible division. Okay. And so we have to understand why the division is created. Why are we creating a division? And uh it's because it could be because there are those who are creating divisions within the church. He continues on, verse 19. But I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil. And so he he says, the reason we create these divisions within the church, whether it's false doctrine or sexual immorality or another example we'll give in just a moment, is because I want you to be wise to what is good. I want that to be clear. And I also want you to be innocent to what is evil. And by creating these different boundaries, by creating these separations, that's exactly that's exactly what we'll see is we'll be able to be wise to what is good and we'll be able to be innocent to what is evil. And so Christian unity has boundaries, right? We we can't unite around false doctrine, and we can't preserve unity by uh essentially ignoring unrepentant sin. That's not what Christian unity is about. And so let me say it this way unity detached from truth is not biblical unity at all. Okay. That doesn't mean we divide over preferences, personalities, or even minor disagreements. But when the gospel itself is compromised, unity cannot be maintained. And I want to show you one final example of this where the New Testament says it's time to create a separation. And this is in 2 Thessalonians chapter three. So starting in verse six, the apostle Paul says this Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. And so there's this Christian in the church, brother in the church, who is essentially not pulling his weight, not working, um, and sounds like he's essentially mooching off everyone else. He continues on, for you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it. But with toil and labor we worked night and day that we might not be bur a burden to any of you. He continues on in verse 14. If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. And what I love is that Paul helps to clarify what his heart is in this passage for why he gives these warnings. So he says, keep away from a brother who is walking in idleness. And some pretty strong language, have nothing to do with him. Why that he may be ashamed? Okay. So this separation that you're creating, this division that you're creating, the purpose of it is so that this brother in Christ, this Christian, can recognize their sin, and by that separation and that division, help help them to pause and reflect and to see, like, hey, maybe what I'm doing is wrong and I need to stop and I need to recorrect. And so one of the ways that you could look at it, or one of the things that you might take notice of is this separation is corrective, it's not vindictive. That's the goal of it is not to um produce punishment, but really to hopefully that that person would come back to Christ in the end uh and be um yeah, be brought back into fellowship with Christ, but not this kind of permanent exile because of the sin that they're choosing to live in, right? And here's what I want you to notice about all of these passages today. I want you to notice what the separation is tied to. And so we see in these passages there's really three things that it's always tied to unrepentant sin, false doctrine, and then destructive behavior that essentially creates chaos within the church. These are the reason that the separation is created. And we also see if we look at these passages that the separation is always after a warning, it's for the health of the church, and it's aimed at restoration. It's not aimed at punishment. And so biblical division is never impulsive, it's purposeful. Uh, it's done with love, even though it might feel harsh to some. The the goal is love and it's ultimately redemptive in its aim. The the goal is to bring these, the, the, this, the person who is continuing in their sin back into fellowship eventually, but separation for a time. And in one sense, that that time could be forever, or if the person chooses to repent of their the sin that they're living in, then they would be essentially brought back into fellowship, right? And so here's why I would say this is important. Our culture, and even within the church, often treat division as kind of the ultimate evil. It's it's division itself is the problem. But scripture doesn't treat division that way. Unity is a biblical value and it's it's a huge biblical value, but it's not the highest biblical value. Truth, love, and holiness, they are the greatest biblical values. Okay. And this is important when we talk about values because they have to be ordered, or else, again, we lose, we lose all the values together. And so when we look at this idea of holiness, right, holiness throughout scripture is rooted in this idea of being set apart. And sometimes faithfulness requires being set apart from falsehood and from sin. So, again, the question we have to ask is what should what are we trying to unify around? And then ultimately, what should we let divide us? And the problem is when people push for unity for the sake of unity, because what we unify around is is very important. And what we let divide us is important. And so we should, as Christians, we should unify around what is good and what is right and what is true. And so when we look at this idea of unity, I think it's important to just note that unity in itself is not inherently good, especially if it causes us to ignore sin. So, for example, there are areas where biblical Christianity and progressive Christianity in our modern day are not merely different, but they're fundamentally opposed. And this is where I think this becomes important for the church today, because there is an inherent divide at the level of authority, morality. Uh, even the definition of sin is different between what I would say a biblical Christian and a progressive Christian. And so let me kind of make this clearer for us, right? A biblical Christian can't support abortion, right? Because we believe in life. We believe in life at conception and protecting the most innocent and the most valuable in our society, which are these unborn babies. Uh, a biblical Christian can't affirm poor gender ideologies that detach, you know, identity from biological sex. Uh and a biblical Christian can't affirm an ongoing, unrepentant, LGBT lifestyle. Those are things that a Christian can't support. These are not secondary issues. Scripture treats these as matters of moral obedience, they're not optional theological preferences. And the reality is that following these commands is really one of the ways that we love God, and it's one of the ways that we love others. And so, as I was thinking about this, I was read I was also reading the Apostolic Fathers, and I came across this quote. And this is a striking warning from Ignatius of Antioch, and this is what he had to say. He says, These people, while pretending to be trustworthy, mix Jesus Christ with themselves, like those who administer a deadly drug with honeyed wine, which the unsuspecting victim accepts without fear, and so with fatal pleasure drinks down. And so Ignatius is warning the early church about these teachings that essentially distort truth in a way that felt safe, even maybe appealing to some, but ultimately led people away from Christ. And that concern feels relevant today because we often see moral clarity being softened in the name of empathy or compassion. And so, although the intentions might be good, it creates an issue in the church, right? And it really ultimately brings destruction on those who are trying to follow Christ. And so, although it can appear loving, it's really the opposite of love. And I'm specifically, when I talk about progressive Christians, I want to be clear here on what I mean by that because I think that's important. I'm specifically talking about groups that affirm abortion and redefine gender and normalize sexual immorality, and they put themselves under the banner of Christianity. That's that's really what I'm speaking to here. Because again, we have to be clear on where are the secondary issues, and then where are the things that are real sin issues, and where are things that are real doctrine issues that aren't disputed, right? And so these issues that I'm bringing up, these are issues that should divide the church. Because again, they're not secondary issues, and the Bible's very clear on these things, even if there's those who try to create uh an argument to distort God's word. Now, when you read the New Testament carefully, you're you you notice something interesting, or at least I have as I've been reading the New Testament. Uh, Jesus and Paul were not hesitant to speak to hard truths, even when those truths cause division. And of course, we have to clarify that the truth they spoke was always in love. And there's this idea of truth and grace and the importance of those two things coming together. Um, but at the same time, when we look at the Apostle Paul, when we look at Jesus, when we look at Peter, they didn't measure faithfulness by how few people were offended by what they had to say. And in our cultural moment, and sometimes even within the church, there's this strong instinct to avoid hard truths, even when those hard truths are shared in love. You know, kind of this idea like don't talk about abortion because you might push someone away, or you know, don't speak too clearly about sexual ethics because, you know, it might make people uncomfortable or it might scare people away. But avoiding truth isn't it's not loving that it's you can't love people by avoiding truth. And in fact, not making truth clear and in enabling people to sin is actually the opposite of love. And so I I would I would also say affirming what scripture calls sin may feel compassionate in the short term, but it can do real harm in the long term. That that's the reality. And so that's the the tension that I'm trying to get at is we can't just avoid hard truths and hard topics because there's a fear that it might scare people away. Yes, let's try to do it with tact, let's do it in love, let's be um emotionally mature in the way that we speak about these things, but we can't avoid them altogether. Now, another thing you often hear is this idea that you shouldn't condemn people, or sometimes it's said that you shouldn't judge people. And the the challenge here is that the difference between condemning ideas and actions and condemning the person committing those actions or the person who holds those ideas, it's messy. Ultimately, it's just messy. So, for example, if I say abortion is morally wrong because it ends innocent human life, I'm making a claim about the act. I'm not pronouncing eternal judgment on the person who's committing the act, but I can't shy away from the reality that I'm gonna make it clear what that act is. That, you know, innocent babies are being killed. And some don't want to hear that. And in one sense, that might create controversy or that might create division, but it's true. And I wanna say it in a loving way, but at the same time, I don't want to, I don't want to blunt it in such a way that it makes it unclear what abortion actually is and what abortion actually does. And I, and on the other side, I recognize there's women who carry deep grief and regret. And there are others who were pressured or misled or afraid. But the the reality is, and the beauty is the gospel speaks to all of them. And at the same time, I would say compassion doesn't require moral confusion, right? And so we don't want to go to one side of the spectrum or the other, being too harsh on being too harsh on the individual and yet not being clear and firm on what the truth actually is. And so love and compassion doesn't require us to make sure others doesn't require us to make sure they don't feel the weight of their sin. And in fact, sometimes that can be a good thing. And so another way to say it is this is moral clarity without compassion is harsh. But on the other end, compassion without moral clarity is not love. It's not loving. The question becomes how do we speak clearly to sin and bad ideologies without condemning those who are committing those acts or who hold those ideologies? And one of the ways I would answer that is I would say the reality is that when we sin and we affirm sin, we actually already stand condemned, right? God's word already condemns us. We are condemned. God condemns us for that, which is one of the reasons. I mean, that's the bad news, which is one of the reasons the gospel itself is such good news. Because when we look at Jesus, Jesus doesn't affirm our sin. He doesn't affirm all of our choices. But what he does do is he bears our judgment. And those who give their allegiance to Christ, they find forgiveness, they find freedom, they find hope. And that is the truth of the gospel. And so we don't want to make the bad news unclear because the bad news ultimately leads to the good news of the gospel. You know, one of the unintended consequences of fearing division is that many Christians decide to avoid controversial topics altogether. Like a conversation like this that we're having today makes people very uncomfortable. And the issue is that oftentimes these topics that I'm talking about today, that we're talking about today, these are the conversations, these are the topics that matter. These are the topics that are shaping this generation, and these are the topics that will shape the next next generation. And these are the topics that we have to be the clearest on. You know, questions surrounding sexual ethics, abortion, immigration, justice, identity, whatever it is, the ones that bring the most tension sometimes bring the most tension because they are so important. And if the church is unclear on these issues, we shouldn't be surprised when the culture disciples are people instead of the church. And I think about my girls, right? I think about my daughters, and I want them to grow up in a church that is clear on these things because as a parent, I don't want the way on me to be the only person, or me, my wife and I to be the only people in their lives that are speaking these clear truths and helping them see reality the way that it is through a biblical lens. We need other people within the church to be clear on these things so that our daughters can grow up knowing what is true and not falling prey to the sins of this world or the sins of our culture. And so within the church, we have to be clear on these things, even though it brings controversy and even though it might bring, you know, visible division within within the church. And so in order to think well, we have to, we have to be willing to get into controversy sometimes. And in order to avoid sin, the sins of our culture, we have to get into controversy. And I'm not I'm not interested in controversy for the sake of controversy. I don't want controversy for its own sake. But when you take clear moral positions on meaningful issues, tension is inevitable. Tension's going to, tension's going to arise. And one of the challenges I see with that is that many Christians equate debate with division. But thoughtful debate is often the very tool that can actually clarify what we should unify around. And so one way I'd say it is debate is not a bad word. It's disciplined agreement in pursuit of truth. Debate that is actually done well, that is healthy and good. We shouldn't shy away from debate. It's it's actually a good thing. And it's one of the things, again, that can clarify what we're ultimately trying to unify around. And it this, some who are listening to this who know me well or who have been listening to the podcast for a while, they would say, Well, that's easy for you to say because you love to debate. And you welcome it, right? And that's true. I do enjoy to debate. Maybe it's the ENTP in me. Uh, for those of you who you know have done the Myers Briggs and and are you know accustomed to that, uh, I am the debater. But one of the reasons I love to debate is because debating is how I learn best. Debating is the thing that allows me to see the strongest form of the other side's opinion to either convince me of their side so that I can change and reorient myself to what is true, um, or it can kind of push me towards asking questions that might reaffirm what I already believe. But either way, debate is such a strong mechanism to do that for both parties, and it's ultimately how we learn. So to kind of sum that up, I would say I just don't want the church and I don't want Christians to see debate as a bad thing because it seems on the surface to be divisive. Um, if done well, then debate can be a really good clarifying thing that can help both sides uh when it comes to understanding, when it comes to understanding truth, right? Now, uh we've been mainly talking about Christian unity, but I want to bring this into the context of America real quick. And I don't want to sit here too long, but I want to talk about America and unity because we kind of run into a similar issue. When you when you think about unity in America, in order to have unity, we have to have something that we are unifying around. Again, it can't just be as we've talked about with Christian unity, it can't be unity for the sake of unity. National unity requires shared moral commitments. It requires shared values, shared beliefs about justice, shared assumptions about human nature and purpose. And um when those foundational beliefs diverge, unity ultimately becomes fragile. Because what ends up happening is we're aiming at different versions of the good. And there really is only one good, but when we try to aim at different versions of that and one side is off on what is actually good, we end up not going in the same direction. And I would say that the issue in America right now is that the right and the left have differing values, differing beliefs, different worldviews, and because of that, um, are living out or living for different purposes. And so, in order for there to be true unity, we have to agree on what those fundamental building foundations are. We can't just unify for the sake of unity. We can't even just unify around the word being an American. We actually have to agree on what it means to be an American. We have to agree on what values we are striving for, and we have to agree on what our purpose is. And so again, this brings us back to the same point that I've been talking about when I've been talking about this idea of Christian unity. Before we ever talk about unity, before the word ever comes up, we have to ask the question: what are we trying to unify around? Unity for the sake of unity doesn't work because it's not the highest value, right? Unity itself is really a secondary value. And we have to ask that question, what are we trying to unify around? So to really wrap up the conversation today, Christians should always desire unity. Unity is a good thing. We see calls for it throughout the Bible, throughout the New Testament, but not unity detached from truth, not unity as an end to itself. What we unify around matters. You know, what we uh what we are called to pursue when it comes to truth and holiness, those things matter as well. And I would again argue that those are higher values. And so um, as we pursue Christ together, as we look towards him together, then unity becomes a byproduct. But at the same time, again, sin will divide us, lies will divide us. And sometimes faithfulness requires what we might call a holy divide. And so, as we get ready to wrap up today, let me read the words of the Apostle Paul out of the book of Philippians, chapter two. In verse one, he says this So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. And so notice what the apostle Paul roots unity in encouragement in Christ, participation in spirit, shared love and a shared mind. That's the kind of unity that's not manufactured, that's the kind of unity that lasts. Um, you know, it's formed when our minds are centered on Christ. And so as we think about that today, with that, let's pursue what is true, let's stand for what is good, and let's let Christ be the center of it all. As always, I want to say thanks for listening, and I'll see you on the next episode.