Performance Beyond Training with Dr. Norina Columbaro

Dr. Norina Columbaro brings nearly three decades of instructional design wisdom to this thought-provoking conversation about performance-focused learning. Drawing from her extensive experience across 60+ organizations worldwide, she reveals how the most successful learning initiatives prioritize measurable performance outcomes rather than just creating training materials.

Whether you're new to instructional design or a seasoned professional, you'll appreciate Dr. Columbaro's practical insights about influencing stakeholders, working with subject matter experts, and maintaining focus on performance outcomes in your learning initiatives. Her passion for connecting people with knowledge shines through in every aspect of this enlightening conversation.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Introduction to Dr. Norena Columbaro
• 3:16 The Joy of Instructional Design
• 6:58 Moving Beyond Training to Performance
• 10:48 Project Success in Action
• 16:24 Key Strategies and Flexibility
• 22:41 AI in Instructional Design
• 27:23 The Importance of Human Connection

Transcript

Jackie Pelegrin: 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Designing with Love podcast. I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer. Hello instructional designers and educators, welcome to Episode 72 of the Designing with Love podcast. I'm thrilled to have Dr Norena Columbaro, a talent development leader and instructional design coordinator at Perform for Life Consulting, with me today. Welcome, Norina, Thank you.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 0:31

Jackie, it's good to be here and I can correct you it's Performance for Life, but that's okay.

Jackie Pelegrin: 0:37

Oh, I'm sorry Performance for Life. Yes, Thank you Appreciate it. I must have forgotten that last part in there so I appreciate that yeah great. So, to start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what inspired you to focus on talent development and instructional design?

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 0:52

Oh, this is always hard. I hate talking about myself, but I'm going to do my best. Okay, sure, so you know what inspired me to get into instructional design. It was a long road and, as I was kind of chatting with you a little bit earlier, I've been doing this for a long time, as you can imagine.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 1:08

You see the grays and you know I started out in scientific and technical communication and I was doing the old PowerPoints and graphic design and all that good stuff back in the day when they actually hired you know departments to do this kind of stuff and it just felt like I needed to be around people and connect a little bit more than just user manuals and presentations. And so I had a wonderful opportunity to move into the company that I was working at. Their department, their training and development department, kind of took off from there and I just fell in love with it and it was more than just the facilitation it was also creating, using my background in scientific and technical communication and working with subject matter experts, and it's just been a wonderful ride. I've been in business now for almost 27 years now and, as I was mentioning to you, jackie, I've seen this profession evolved, evolve, you know, very significantly over those years, but I still have a love for it and particularly I love seeing more people coming into this area because it's exciting, it's a fun profession.

Jackie Pelegrin: 2:27

Absolutely yes. It kind of reminds me of the passion that my students have when I'm teaching them in the graduate program at Grand Canyon University. So it's exciting to see that they have that love and passion for education in general. But then to see that they want to come into this profession and they have that excitement, and it doesn't matter what age they are. They can. They can be even older than me, younger than me and I'm like, wow, there's no boundaries to the age and to the level of experience that they have. They can come in it and really learn, learn it and love it so like we do. So I love that. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's a. It's a. It's a great type of profession because, as we know it, it goes across all different sectors, and so that's what makes it so appealing to so many people, I think.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 3:16

Absolutely Well and I think what's really exciting is, you know I have worked with about 60 or more companies, organizations, nonprofits, I mean you name it across the board internationally over the years and you get to learn new things. You know, you come in with your background in instructional design and you get to use all the models, methodologies, theories and try to negotiate the reality and, more importantly, get to work with these subject matter experts that are amazing and learn so many different topics. I mean, I've learned, you know, about corrosion and different topics in health care and customer service and supported employment recently with the state of Oregon, and that's just naming a few topic areas that I learn more about and that's what I find really exciting is that connection.

Jackie Pelegrin: 4:13

Absolutely yeah, because you can tell the subject matter experts are passionate about their field and what they do, and so you're bridging together their expertise and then you're taking your expertise of instructional design and learning development and taking those and then and putting that into something that's digestible for the learner so that they have something that comes out on the other side and you know, you see it kind of start, and then it it becomes something that is tangible and I love that, yeah, and it's pretty cool and it's really cool.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 4:44

I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but when your subject matter experts start getting really excited about adult learning theory and you know, instructional design themselves and I've had instances where my subject matter experts actually decided to just go into instructional design themselves and they're doing great it's really cool to watch and you know I it's, it's fun to see other people start to geek out on this, because you always feel, I mean, for years you felt kind of alone.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 5:14

it's like you know, these subject matter experts would just, you know, kind of throw the content over the wall and you, you, you know, communicate with them and and work with them to develop the curriculum or, you know, know the learning events et cetera. But now they want to get involved in the process on that side too, and it's I love that. It's really cool to watch that excitement.

Jackie Pelegrin: 5:36

That is. Yeah, that's true. I'm working on a course, some new courses and a graduate certificate right now and the subject matter experts are like that. They're very passionate and they want to know what can I do better at you know, because they they know the process they know how we work of, of how what we need from them in order to make a course what it is. But it's really great when they they welcome that feedback, because sometimes subject matter experts they just want to run with it. They want to take what they have and call it good, like you said, what's going to stick to the wall, and then that's it and I'm like, oh, it's not, or to check off a box or something like that, and yeah, you're going to get that.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 6:14

But it's really cool because I think more often than not, especially in the recent years, because of the technology and the access to different tools that are out there, people are getting a little more excited about that instructional design side too. The subject matter experts are willing to step out of their comfort zones a little bit and try some new things.

Jackie Pelegrin: 6:35

Wow, that's great. I love that Wonderful. So you, as I read through your information, you focus on empowering organizations through continuous improvement, which I love, and that learner-centered design, which is so important. I teach that to my students all the time. So, from your experience, what's the biggest challenge companies face when moving beyond training to that real performance, and how does action mapping help with that?

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 6:59

Oh boy, it's going to be an ongoing thing. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of the theory and models that we learn in school, they're great. Putting them into practice is another thing, right, right, and I know that Kathy Moore, I'm kind of getting a little off track, but Kathy Moore always talks about do you want to be an order taker? Sometimes you got to be Okay, let's face it, yeah. Okay, let's face it, yeah. But what I try to do is influence the stakeholders from the very beginning of the return on investment, kind of pulling in some Jack Phillips, right, and and that's part of this too, I think, with instructional design is you're not so focused on the course, you're focused on what is the problem we're trying to solve? Right?

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 7:46

And if you get people to understand the benefits of the problem that you're trying to solve and it does. It requires some influencing and then sometimes it requires you to make a decision. You got to either walk away or you know you have to look at the bigger picture too. Maybe you have to be an order taker every once in a while, but those times where I'm actually able to influence somebody to look at what the problem that we're trying to solve and what the performance is that we're looking for as a result of this learning event is, you know that's amazing and we do. We see measurable impacts and you know everybody's all about. You know, making sure that we have data to back everything up, and oftentimes that resonates with most people in getting them aligned with that whole idea of let's not just put together a bunch of PowerPoints. Let's really focus on what is expected on the job and how are we going to get there. And, quite frankly, is a learning event going to take care of that or is it just going to be one piece of the puzzle?

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 8:47

You know, back in the 90s there was a book and it's still around, and I know Dana Gaines Robinson I mean, this is back in the 90s Performance consulting. Have you heard of that, jackie? I'm sure you have right and it's still around. You know, and even though, though, practitioners, we learned about it and we push back over and over again, it's going to be an ongoing struggle. It just always is. There's always going to be organizations that you work with that just want to check off the boxes right. Compliance training is an example of that too. However, those clients that you can get that will allow you to get them to see that performance is what it's really all about, absolutely.

Jackie Pelegrin: 9:29

Right, yeah, so true, yeah. So it's kind of like with the Addy model. You know, when someone uses the Addy model, sometimes organizations want to skip that analysis. They want to get right to development, oh yes, and then they want to skip evaluation and they want to just roll it out and it's like you're missing, like the two pillars of you just can't do what's in the middle, you're missing those two pillars that hold it up and they feed into each other.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 9:52

Right, because value then informs the needs analysis on an ongoing basis for continuous improvement.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 9:58

So it it is you know it's, it can be a hard sell but, just like anything else, you gotta go in with the business mindset. You have to go in with being able to influence them and, um, and that's why instructional design, yeah, you got to learn about the models and the theories and everything, but really learning how to consult, really learning how to, you know, be business minded when you go in there, even if it's a nonprofit uh, is a nonprofit? Is a critical set of skills.

Jackie Pelegrin: 10:26

Absolutely yeah, I would agree. And even like in higher education and K through 12, I've learned that through my students but I've got the higher education experience. But most of my students are I would say about 90% of them are in K through 12 education and so they talk about, like, the standards and all these things and I'm like, if you're, going to stay in.

Jackie Pelegrin: 10:46

K through 12 and you're going to do like instructional coaching or instructional design. Yeah, you know, yeah, you're going to see that, but you also have to think about, like what we were talking about, that performance base, and so it's very interesting to hear how much you know. Unfortunately, bureaucracy is behind all of that, but I'm like you got to get past some of that reality. Yeah, reality, reality.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 11:10

Yeah, that's right, you know, and that's what you got to work with. And you know, I have to say, the most fulfilling projects that I have been on it's been because the organizations have been willing to step away from concentrating on the learning event as the end-all, be-all right. And so I worked on a project over a course of a year, a couple years, and it's being rolled out now. It was a 64-hour curriculum. So here's a higher ed example for you.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 11:43

And it was for supported employment and I'm going to tell you I had the best subject matter experts anybody could ever wish for. One of them I actually actually is an instructional designer now herself, which is really super cool and she's doing an amazing job. You know, we were able to really step back and focus in this curriculum what needs to be done on the job, and I mean it is very hands on. It's not all theory, it's not all lower levels of Bloom's knowledge base. I mean there is a lot of demonstration, a lot of higher level thinking for this curriculum, and it's because the organization was dedicated to that and we were able to track the data to show measurable results, and that, to me, is successful, along with just, you know, having a dream team of subject matter experts.

Jackie Pelegrin: 13:12

Right, that's amazing. I love that because that fed into my next question about that, the example. So that's perfect. That you mentioned that, that's great. What model did you end up moving to? Did you use 4CID?

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 13:27

You know what? It's funny, Jackie. There's an author out there and I can't remember her name. She talks about instructional design being a messy process. It is.

Jackie Pelegrin: 13:34

It is. Yeah, it's never neat.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 13:37

No matter how organized your project management tools I've used, of all models I've used, you've got to use what works for the time it is. It's dark and I used kind of a combination of Addie and Sam. So you know, you come in with the idea of failing fast, right, which I love about Sam is that you know you have the iterations and you get to really work out the kinks and everything like that. But you know, quite frankly, there's elements that overlap with with Addie as well. So I kind of do Frankenstein of Sam and Addie.

Jackie Pelegrin: 14:11

Yeah, exactly, I don't know, I like that yeah exactly, I don't know.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 14:16

I like that Smatty. Yeah, it seems to work. I mean, I'm about results, right, and I will take the tools. I mean the performance, the Kathy Moore love her action mapping. It's fantastic and I've used elements of it, but I'm not a purist. I use what I need you know for the time. And again, we cobble together the tools and the theories that are going to work to get you the learner centered training, learning event intervention, coaching, whatever it may be you just have to walk away from being dogmatic.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 14:51

And I think a lot of new people coming into and I think you'll probably notice this to Jackie with your students you know they come out. You know, oh well, this is. You know this is how it's supposed to be and you know the theory and they start practicing this stuff and you know it really calls on being flexible and willing to maybe take pieces and parts from the different theories and models to get you where you need to go. So that's what I tell newer people to this, to this profession.

Jackie Pelegrin: 15:17

I love that, yeah, because I used to be that type that wanted things done a certain way. I was a perfectionist in many ways, something. Some ways I might be, but one person you know and this is through the SAM model and even rapid development they said, right, right, it's okay to have messy or dirty designs. I like the dirty design and I thought, you know, that's really good, because when you hand something over as an initial prototype, it's not going to be flushed out, it's not going to be all worked out, it's going to be messy and dirty. So I like, I like just to think of that. Okay, yeah, that's a work in progress and it's a silical, you know constant, you know back and forth between the subject matter, experts and really working and refining it yeah, so I love that I'm learning still to this day.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 16:01

I still learn. You know I I make mistakes and you know missteps too, and I just try to try to work, you know, as quickly as I can to to recover from them. But you know, is it's you got to have a high tolerance for messy to be in this realm.

Jackie Pelegrin: 16:20

That's so true, absolutely, and I, you know I did. I learned, I'm learning still too. You know, like we were talking about, you've been in this industry longer than I have and I feel like I'm like 15 years, Wow. But it's like we said before, it tells our age a little bit if we say how long we've been in it, but I don't mind either. You know giving my age away, but it's interesting because I feel like I learn from my students just as much as they learn from me. So, absolutely, give and take, yeah, so that's what I love about it.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 16:51

Yeah, and I think the more you know I'm in this, this profession, the more I realized that I don't know. And and I'm not saying that I you know, because I've been in this profession for 27 years, that I know everything. I just you know I I like to try to help people avoid the bumps, but I learned so much more from the new folks coming in, I mean as far as the tech's concerned and.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 17:13

I know AI has been working with that and learning how to use prompt engineering properly to help support in a instructional design. And you know, of course, you know anything around the W. What is it? Cag, yes. Accessibility, digital accessibility, all those things too, because you know, keeping up with all this can be really daunting, right, and especially when you're busy working on projects, right. And so you got to be open to learning from the new folks coming into this area, because we're all pretty much new when it comes to AI and and and I know with you know, even with digital accessibility it can be challenging for folks too.

Jackie Pelegrin: 17:57

Absolutely Right. Great, I love that. So what are some of the key strategies or lessons you found most effective in your work? You've talked a little bit about that, and how do you think others can apply those insights to some of their own projects that they're working on?

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 18:11

Sure, Absolutely, sure, absolutely. Well, you know I already mentioned that flexibility and creating a plan on how you're going to influence the clients or whoever you're working with to focus on performance. Ultimately, you know and have some tools. I know there's a lot of templates out there. I know I have some templates for intake. I know Kathy Moore provides in her book Map it right. The action mapping has some wonderful tools for interviewing and getting people to the performance and focusing on that. So I know that there's some really good techniques.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 18:49

You know, every project is so different, jackie. I mean I'm telling you there are some things I and I was, as I was preparing for this and thinking about how I could articulate this. There are some things I and I was, as I was preparing for this and thinking about how I could articulate this is that I almost take a different approach just depending on the organization, the domains that we are focusing on and the subject matter. Experts, I mean, you know, really getting to know them, getting to know their work styles. You know what they like to do, what they don't like to do, and I try not to force them into something. So I'll give you an example.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 19:18

So, like getting feedback on, let's just say I'm going to use a presentation, because oftentimes people regardless I know Kathy Morse's don't talk about slides, don't talk about learning outcomes.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 19:30

The reality is a lot of your subject matter experts are very visual, right, and as long as you explain to them that this PowerPoint is not the end, all be all, this is a concept, right, and so I let them decide. Is it easier for you to comment in the PowerPoint or is it easier for you to put it in a spreadsheet and we kind of work out the logistics so I can get what I need from them, so that we can get to the final product, and so I let them kind of help me with that and I just allow myself some flexibility to just step back and say, hey, you know what this is going to work for them. As long as I get the information I need to help support them in this process and get to the end goal, then I'm fine with it. So again, I can't say it enough flexibility, flexibility, flexibility and really building up your toolkit, looking at different types of resources.

Jackie Pelegrin: 20:23

That are out there, I mean anything Tim Slade's fantastic.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 20:24

I mean anything around Tim Slade, kara, north, of course Tracy King, you know I stand for Tracy King.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 20:29

And you know, and Dana Gaines Robinson still has some really great work, and Dana Gaines Robinson still has some really great work. You know Brookfield, so I tap into a lot of different. You know experts in this area. Absolutely For additional ideas, and I know there's new ones that are coming out. I mean, we've got people emerging left and right, right, but it is an exciting time, absolutely. I'm just curious, you know, with AI and I know this is your podcast, but I'm going to ask you a question how much that you've been using it in your classrooms.

Jackie Pelegrin: 21:00

Yes, that's a great question With Grand Canyon University. They've taken the approach of not policing it but incorporating it, yeah. And so they just revised the master's program in instructional design and so they've got a couple of competencies that are AI focused Are they really great? And then they revised all of the courses that I teach, and so I'm teaching a course right now. It's called Organizational Workplace and Performance Improvement, and so it's all about OKRs and all those different things. But it's really great because they've got an assignment coming up in I think it's topic five. They've got an assignment coming up where they have to. They have some case studies and they have to utilize AI technology to kind of have that back and forth conversation with the tool and get some outputs, and it's to help them build an e-learning module. So it's really interesting and I'm like, Ooh, that is cool.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 21:54

And I was graded on their prompt engineering, or how they, you know, critically think through the process. Or is it just on the end result?

Jackie Pelegrin: 22:02

Yeah, it's kind of on the end result, but they are supposed to give screenshots or or something like that. They can either do screenshots or do like a copy paste into a Word document of the conversation that they had with AI and some of their prompts were and things like that, and how they did that, back and forth, so it's pretty cool. It's funny, though, I have a student that sends me a message almost every day because she wants to make sure that she's doing things right.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 22:28

And I appreciate that.

Jackie Pelegrin: 22:29

But she's very much on top of things and she asked me I didn't think of this until she asked the question and I thought, well, maybe we need to put this in the syllabus or maybe I need to put it in my future announcements. But she's like how many times do I need to have a conversation with the AI tool? How much are you expecting with that? And I said there's really no number. It's just however much you think you need to do of back and forth to where you get that result that you're looking for. That can help you inform your e-learning module. So I said there's no real number around it, because I've used AI in my profession as an instructional designer and I've noticed that sometimes the AI tool gets me the first draft of what I'm looking for and kind of in that realm within a few prompts, and then sometimes I have to probe it more and I'm like, no, that's not what I'm looking for.

Jackie Pelegrin: 23:19

Can now, this is? You know better experts. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's kind of that virtual assistant. Or I'm like, no, you're not quite there, can you adjust this a little bit? Or yeah, because I noticed that the AI tools they love bullets and lists and so unfortunately, our system doesn't allow multi-level lists, so we're trying to figure out how can we train the AI model, our internal AI model.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 23:46

Yeah, not to do that it's really interesting, yeah and right.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 23:52

And speaking of mistakes, I mean I've made mistakes with AI too. I mean I've had things hallucinate. I've had to really check very closely. Yeah, one area that I really I'm looking forward to seeing more development for those of us in this profession and structural designers, anybody who's involved with developing, learning, that type of thing, you know, really getting comfortable with utilizing the technology in the way it should be. And I don't want to lose sight of critical thinking. I'm always concerned about that too. You know, just like anything else, our critical thinking is a muscle. We need to keep exercising it. Our critical thinking is a muscle. We need to keep exercising it. And I get concerned that over-reliance on that particular tool can cause us atrophy, right, so you know, I'm encouraged when I hear people like you that you're really, you know, fostering that critical thinking piece.

Jackie Pelegrin: 24:50

Right exactly.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 24:51

Well for your students, Exactly.

Jackie Pelegrin: 24:53

Right, exactly, Well for your students, Right? Yeah, Because I I utilize it a little bit to gather ideas for the podcast, like my with my solo episodes, and I was. I did this whole series on different models and theories and I was asking it to give me some ideas on. I did one on Mayer's 12 multimedia principles and then I did one on Merrill's first principles of instruction and they were were pretty close to each other and I was just kind of doing the outlines and it was funny because ChatGPT actually got them mixed up and so it started taking Merrill's and it put it in with Mayer's and I'm like wait a minute, there aren't five multimedia principles, there's 12.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 25:32

I know that happened. I did see that happen one time when I was looking because I was doing something around pulling together some information about different adult learning models, and that actually did happen through chat, gpt, so we had to be on that, I know. Yeah, that's crazy nuts, yeahuts, wow. You know, the technology is there. We just have to be wise to use our critical thinking skills and our ability to curate what's coming out, because garbage in, garbage out, as they say. Right, absolutely.

Jackie Pelegrin: 26:05

Right, right. That's so true. I love that. That's great. That's great advice, absolutely no-transcript.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 26:39

But that's what it's all about.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 26:40

It's really not only a love of profession, but a love of helping people and helping people learn to make their lives better, to make, you know, to take care of, you know any obstacles in either their, their wellbeing or their ability to perform on the job. You know those are. That's what it's all about. It's about that connection, and even if you're sitting behind a laptop and you're, you know, putting together e-learning or whatever type of learning event or getting ready for a coaching session, it really is about connection, right, Whether it's connecting with your subject matter experts, your stakeholders, your learners, connecting ideas or connecting on a relationship level, and that is what I would encourage people to think about. The models yeah, you can always look them up, you can implement them. Project management tools there's a ton of them out there that are fantastic, but when it comes right down to it, if you can't connect with the people, don't bother getting into it, and I have a feeling that most people that decide to get into it really do like that connection piece, because that's right as well.

Jackie Pelegrin: 27:44

Yeah, I love that Because, even like for people like me that work remotely, and I work with people not only throughout my state that I live in, but all across the country and some international as well. So, yeah, like you said earlier, you know you've you've had the opportunity to work across the country and around the world, so being able to make those connections are so important today.

Jackie Pelegrin: 28:05

Yeah, Because learning new ways of approaching things to you know right, because it's so easy to feel isolated and siloed in something. So, yeah, keeping that connection is so important and not just thinking of it. Oh, we have to meet, but really forming, like you said, forming those connections and not just another meeting, but an opportunity to learn something new and connect and share ideas. So I love that. Yeah, that's great. That dialogue is so important. That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much, norena, for sharing your insights today. I know your experiences, tips and expertise are going to inspire my listeners and hopefully bring about that next generation right of instructional designers?

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 28:45

Absolutely. We need new voices, right, we need you out here, okay, absolutely. And who can teach me some things, too?

Jackie Pelegrin: 28:52

all of us. Yeah, exactly, I believe in that lifelong learning and I think it's wonderful because if we think we know everything, if we become stagnant, it doesn't help us, it doesn't help our learners or anybody. So, you know, being willing and open to always learning and growing is such a good thing, absolutely. I love it Great. Well, I look forward to having you back on the show again and we can dig in and talk about some other things, anything that is on your mind. I know my listeners would love anything that we can dive more into. Just like with Tracy and I were probably planning to do something else. I always love having my guests come back and do that.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 29:37

Oh, you're going to, let me come back.

Jackie Pelegrin: 29:38

Yes, absolutely yes. I'm always willing to gravitate towards anyone that's been in the field, no matter how long or short, and just gather those experiences and pass them along so yeah, I love, it Happy to share them.

Dr. Norina Columbaro: 29:53

Great Thank you, jinky Thanks.

Jackie Pelegrin: 29:54

Thanks again, marina. I appreciate it. Keep doing your good work. Thank you, Appreciate it. Thank you for taking some time to listen to this podcast episode today. Your support means the world to me. If you'd like to help keep the podcast going, you can share it with a friend or colleague, leave a heartfelt review going. You can share it with a friend or colleague, leave a heartfelt review or offer a monetary contribution. Every act of support, big or small, makes a difference and I'm truly thankful for you.