Beyond the LMS: Karen Nix's Instructional Design Journey

Karen Nix's journey from journalism to instructional design showcases how diverse backgrounds can create exceptional instructional designers. After stumbling into professional development as an administrative assistant, Karen discovered her passion for transforming complex information into engaging educational experiences. Now, working as a Design Strategist and Communications Lead at Orbis Education, her recent master's degree from GCU has added theoretical foundations to her practical expertise.

For those considering a master's in instructional design, Karen offers encouraging advice: "Come as you are and be prepared to work hard." Her experience demonstrates that diverse backgrounds enrich the field and that practical experience combined with theoretical knowledge creates powerful learning designers. Whether you're transitioning from another field or deepening your expertise, Karen's story reminds us that instructional design offers endless opportunities for creative problem-solving and meaningful impact.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Karen Nix
• 6:25 Journey into Instructional Design
• 13:54 Mass Communication Meets Healthcare Education
• 20:22 Microlearning and Scenario-Based Learning Strategies
• 25:59 Collaboration with Subject Matter Experts
• 31:18 Advice for Master's Program Students
• 36:57 Episode Wrap-Up

Transcript

Jackie Pelegrin: 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Designing with Love podcast. I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer. Hello instructional designers and educators, welcome to Episode 74 of the Designing with Love podcast. I'm thrilled to have Karen Nix with me today. Karen has completed her master's program in instructional design at Grand Canyon University. Welcome, Karen. Thank you for having me. Yes, thank you so much. I'm glad we got to connect now that you're done with your program. Congratulations on that. I love it, thank you so much.

Karen Nix: 0:38

It was a long time coming, but it was a process, but I'm so excited. But it was a process, but I'm so excited I can't even believe that I'm done. I usually do homework on weekends. That is what I'm doing on weekends and I'm like, oh, I have free time. I went to the library. I got books to read for pleasure.

Jackie Pelegrin: 1:03

I love it. You have to kind of pinch yourself and go is this real? Yes, I can't believe it's over. Yeah, but you have to kind of pinch yourself and go is this real? I can't believe it's over. That's great, I love it. So, to start off on the interview, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and share what inspired you to focus on the instructional design field? Absolutely.

Karen Nix: 1:15

So I have been in learning and development for a long time. Right out of college I got a job as an administrative assistant in the professional development department at a community-based agency and I didn't really know anything about professional development, learning and development at all, so it was all new to me. I went to undergrad for journalism so I expected to do something. I had like an internship at MPBN and um and I expected to do something in that field but this sort of swept me along and sort of determined my career. Um. So for years and years I was in some version of learning and design, whether it be like the onboarding program or doing workshops and conferences, like some version of training and development, learning and development for years and years. And when my kids got older I finally went back into like the corporate realm and I had lots of experience with doing instructional design in whatever title I happened to wear, and usually I was a team of one or maybe up to maybe six small departments. So I learned really by doing and they were out of school.

Karen Nix: 2:42

I went into the corporate realm and had my first sort of title as an instructional designer for a corporate pharmacy and sort of learned more about authoring tools and LMSs and some of the tools that we didn't necessarily have in previous jobs, and I loved it so much. So now I'm with Orbis Education and I'm the design strategist. And communications lead is my official title, and I work in the faculty training and development department. I'm the only instructional designer on our team, but there are many instructional designers in the larger organization and we sort of are under the umbrella of Grand Canyon education. So Grand Canyon University is part of that and there was an opportunity for me to do professional development by taking the degree program and that's what I decided to do.

Karen Nix: 3:48

I love instructional design, but I felt like that I didn't have enough of the foundational knowledge that I had sort of learned as I went, picked up a lot of things along the way but didn't at, didn't ever go to school for learning theory or any of that kind of thing and I wanted to have that foundational knowledge and maybe learn some new things about technology, multimedia, things that I could bring back into my current role and enhance what I'm already doing. So that's how I ended up there.

Jackie Pelegrin: 4:23

Great, I love that. So it sounds like the master's program really helped you to solidify what you're already doing and then also pick up some of those additional skills and theories and all of those things that can, like you said, helped you bring it back to the job and learn as you're doing, right as you're doing the information, absolutely.

Karen Nix: 4:42

I came back with a lot of enthusiasm. Of course, I was still working while I was going to school, so I'd oftentimes take something that I learned at school and bring it back to the job. I'd be like, oh, I could do it this way. So I gained a lot of new love and enthusiasm for my, my occupation, and some new tools to do things, maybe in a way that hadn't thought of before, or even to, you know, find out why people do what they do, like.

Karen Nix: 5:14

I loved researching and learning more about like why people get fatigued when they're doing a, you know, an online learning and what can enhance their learning experience, and learning more about scenario-based learning and micro-learning and the theory behind using multimedia and when you should and when you shouldn't. I love learning all that stuff. So I just come back to the job and I'd be like we're going to do this and maybe I had too much enthusiasm because I still had to get a lot done and my deadlines didn't change. But yeah, but I have used a lot of what I have learned on the job, so it was great, great experience, Love that.

Jackie Pelegrin: 5:58

That's great. That speaks to the program and the quality of it and the quality of instruction too. So it all goes hand in hand the curriculum and then the instruction behind it. So that's great. I love to hear that. So you have a unique blend of experience in both that mass communication, as you mentioned, and the healthcare education which that must give you a distinctive perspective as an instructional designer. So what are some unique challenges you face designing that faculty development portion of that, such as those programs for nurse educators, and how has your background in mass communication helped you to overcome those?

Karen Nix: 6:34

One of the things that my background helped me to do was to understand how people receive information and how to simplify. I think that many times, people think that they have to tell everything that they know in order for people to get to understand, and you can usually maybe get rid of three quarters of the text that people want to include in whatever they have, whatever it happens to be, whether it be an article or an online learning you can get rid of a lot of and still get to the heart of what you're trying to convey. So I think that simplification and taking complicated information a lot of information, and like parsing it down into what people really need to know and chunking it out into like a, you know, a flow that can be received by the reader or the learner that translated really well into instructional design and learning and development as a whole. Really well into instructional design and learning and development as a whole. I use a lot of those skills and proofing, copy editing those skills like I'm so glad that I have them that is a secondary thing.

Karen Nix: 7:55

But taking the complex information because I'm working with people who are, you know, well-educated and I have since I started way back when working in behavioral health and nonprofits, working with people who have a lot of knowledge degrees, higher education, a lot of know-how and I am not a nurse, I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist or any number of the people that pharmacists, any number of the people that I've worked with, who have some expertise that they need to convey to the learner. So I have to be sort of a conduit and take that information and make it put it in a framework that the learner can digest, and usually at a fast pace, like when I worked in pharmacy it was during COVID so we were rolling out new protocol like by the minute, and I was working with like a any of these things. But I have to understand it and I have to be able to convey it in a way to the learner that makes sense, is factual and accurate all of that. So journalism really helped me with that, and I also love to learn.

Karen Nix: 9:34

I love to learn new things. So I feel like I'm like we just did a curriculum that is a prep course for people who want to become certified nurse educators. I feel like I could take the test now because I, you know, learned as I went and now my brain is full of what it would take to be a certified nurse educator, and I could probably take the test tomorrow and pass. But that is sort of what you have to do. You have to trust your experts. They are the experts, but you have to be able to take what they have in their minds and convey it to the learners, which which I find I find to be really fun and interesting.

Jackie Pelegrin: 10:22

It is. It is. It's really interesting and, yeah, sometimes the you've probably noticed this too Sometimes subject matter experts have all this, like you said, in their head of what they've, what they've taught others or what they've learned over the years and or decades, and then they just want to dump it on you and you're like, okay, this is great, this is a lot of great information. But, yeah, like you said, let's see how we can make it more manageable. Chunk it see. Okay, what, what do they need to? What do the learners need to know? And what's the nice to have, you know, and the extra information that you know, maybe we can give them down the road or something.

Karen Nix: 11:06

So yeah, absolutely yeah. Sometimes it's better to be, to not be the expert, because then I can receive it like a learner would. And I think sometimes subject matter experts don't know what they don't know. They are the experts. So all of this lives in their day-to-day, in their mind, their experience. So they don't necessarily have the same mindset as the learner. So, as a layperson, that's how I'm receiving it, as someone who's not heard the information before, doesn't have the degrees in that particular field. So I think sometimes that's.

Jackie Pelegrin: 11:39

That's a help it is. It definitely is. It reminds me of a video I came across a couple years ago I don't think I have it in my classes anymore that I share for my media Monday, but it was a video from an instructional designer and she talked about the importance of what you're talking about, of being that novice in that specialty area and relying on the subject matter experts. Because she said, the moment that we become the experts, then we don't ask the key questions that need to be asked. And then we think, oh, I know what this means and I know what that means, and then we're not digging and finding out. And so, yeah, that was an eye opener for me and I was like, oh, that's true, I don't need to be the expert in that area, I actually need to be the novice on that content, like you said, acting like I'm the learner and the layperson. And so then I'm the expert on the instructional design and you're the expert on instructional design, so we help them bring that to life.

Jackie Pelegrin: 13:08

So that's so important that you bring that up, because that reminded me of that video that I watched and I think sometimes we get into that imposter syndrome. Sometimes it happens, yeah, yeah, so it's important. So I'm glad you brought that up, because that's great. So in your recent master's degree work at GCU you talked about this, about the innovative strategies like microlearning and that scenario-based learning, which is so important today, especially with the technology out there. Can you give us an example of how you use microlearning or scenario-based learning in your work and what impact it had on learners?

Karen Nix: 13:44

Absolutely so. I have wanted to do microlearning for a long time. You know it's a catchphrase right now Everyone's talking about microlearning and I had suggested, oh, we should have a library of microlearning, because I found that what happens sometimes is that in some courses you may want to reteach something that you should assume that the learners already know. You should assume that the learners already know, but not every learner will necessarily know. I can assume from the learners that we have that they would have certain foundational knowledge, but they may need a refresher. So I thought microlearning would be a great place to put some of those things that we speak to quite often. So we don't need to reteach them in every course, but we could have a micro learning library that people could go back to if they wanted a refresher. If they wanted a refresher, for instance, on adult learning theory something that we speak to quite often in faculty development, something like that or critical thinking, something along that lines. So I had suggested that before, but there's never enough time. But we did take advantage of the ability to create a microlearning. By using the RISE 360 framework as a place to put a lot of resources and tools, like a faculty toolkit for faculty. I was able to develop that. So that was that was great use of that micro learning tool where people can just pop in. They want a specific tool for whatever it happens to be like. How can I make you know, my presentations more interactive? Here are some tools and here are some links that you can go to very quickly. So we did add that to our curriculum and I am always using scenario-based learning in faculty development, always Like they are teaching their students in scenario-based learning. They're trying to teach critical thinking. They're trying to teach critical thinking. They're trying to teach theory to practice. So we are also teaching faculty to take that to their students. So we have to use the same kinds of tools to develop their learning. So one of the things I came back with great enthusiasm from the master's program is is doing more scenario-based learning and one sort of wondering how I can do it in a way that still works within the parameters that I have, which is fast development. Um, you know a lot, lot of deadlines.

Karen Nix: 16:33

I'm the only instructional design on the team. I'm really, you know, a team of one. I can't outsource any of the things that I need. We were doing a lot of videos of, you know, intros and outros and some videos of certain topics in our courses, but they would require a lot of production, like we have to, you know, get the videographer and set up and do a script, and like it's a lot of production. I sort of took all the tools that I learned in um the multimedia theory and just simplified. I'm like these are the ways that I can fit this within my timeframe and make courses more interactive and use some of that scenario-based learning. So I have taken all the tools that I have available to me.

Karen Nix: 17:34

Like I will take an articulate character and put it in. So one of the things you can do, which you probably know because you're an instructional designer. But you can extract the articulate characters that are in Rise and Storyline that you see they're ubiquitous, you've seen them often. That you see they're, you know, ubiquitous, you've seen them often. Um, right, so hard to come. Find character packs and they have those available and I can use them within the blocks in the courses. But sometimes I want to use them in different ways so you can extract those um and put them in other places. So I end up doing like a static background and using the character and using audio clips.

Karen Nix: 18:19

Like I will create a voice in AI.

Karen Nix: 18:22

I'll like give a description of the character that I'm looking for and create like a voice and a personality, and that person will be the facilitator of my courses.

Karen Nix: 18:35

And it's so easy to do. It seems complicated but it's really not and it just takes, it elevates the course that much more to have you know someone who is guiding the learner through the process and presenting scenarios, and then you can have knowledge checks. You can do it in many different ways, but you could have you know you can do the branching scenario, but you can also have, like the character, present a scenario and then follow that by knowledge checks. You can do it in a million different ways. But it has opened up my world to be able to do that, because it takes me so little time and it makes everything a little more unique, a little more fresh, a little more engaging for the learner. And so I've been doing a lot of that and maybe next year I'll have a different idea. But that is where I'm at now. I'm like busy heavy into like creating multimedia for my courses, for my courses. I'm that's my current thing.

Jackie Pelegrin: 19:36

I love it Cause you're taking it to the next level, but you're also modeling, like you said, the faculty use scenario-based learning with their students, and so you're modeling that and giving them that chance to see it in action.

Karen Nix: 19:48

Right, absolutely, yeah, people some, a few different ideas about what you could do to make things more engaging. You know we have limitations. You know faculty certainly have limitations in their own classes, so, and there's only so much time in the day. But you know, that's sort of where my creative. This is why I love instructional design. I'm creative, but I also like things to be accurate. I like to be correct, so I like having a framework, so I like being creative in a framework. That is probably why my personality is just perfect for instructional design. I love that.

Jackie Pelegrin: 20:29

That's great. I love that you use the AI voices, because some people have said to me before, like, should we? Should we use AI voices, or is that? And I'm like, well, you know, like you said, the production that it takes to actually get someone to come in the studio, do the scripts, all that? You're right, it takes such a big amount of time and then you have to have multiple people involved. And now the AI voices you probably you know, since you've done it many times they sound so realistic now. They don't sound choppy, they don't sound computer-like anymore, they sound so realistic.

Jackie Pelegrin: 21:03

Yeah, you use 11 Labs right For your.

Karen Nix: 21:06

AI voices yes, I do. That's the tool that I know. There are more than one out there, but that's the one I landed on Um and I've actually like been able to clone like I work with um you know, the nurse planner on our team. Quite often she's been the voice of some of our courses, um, for like introductions and that kind of thing, and I cloned her voice and am able to use her and it saves so much time because I can.

Karen Nix: 21:31

We can write a script and I can change it at a whim. You know if something changes. That's another thing with things that require a lot of production is if something changes over time, a procedure changes or whatever it happens to be, or there was a mistake. You know something was said incorrectly. That's a whole another day of production that you have to. You know, to make that correction. It's a lot of time and resources.

Karen Nix: 22:04

But if something changes like you know wording of a script or we didn't like that so much I can easily change the script and then re-record it and download it and it's super easy and it saves so much of her time because I don't need her to live record anymore and it sounds so much like her. It's amazing and I kind of like in love with creating characters when it's not you know someone that I know I'm creating characters who you know sort of represent our learner and it could be a different learner for different instances. Like I had a different sort of character for our leadership series than I would for something that's you know, maybe for our sim series. Like they're different characters and they have personalities and like it's so much fun, I'm sort of so cool.

Jackie Pelegrin: 22:51

Yeah, I love that you have the opportunity, like you said, to to make it so that it's it's not a one size fits all, you're not making the same character all across the board. Yeah, you're able to make it unique for that particular you know, maybe the learner or just the curriculum itself that you're designing for. So I love that. That's great. And you mentioned the cloning. That is so cool. So you're able to actually so. Do you have the faculty subject matter expert like record a few minutes of their voice and then you're able to use 11 labs to clone? That Is that how that works.

Karen Nix: 23:27

Yes, so the best way to do it. So I found that the best way to do it because you can like, just, you can record like yourself, do like a live few minute I forget how many seconds or minutes that they need but you can do a recording of yourself and clone, like on the spot. But the highest quality recording I found is if you have a video snippet, they'll tell you how long it needs to be. It needs to be like a certain number of seconds or whatever. But I happened to have video of her and that was the highest quality duplication of her voice was to use that video snippet and it was hour course and I used her as the facilitator throughout and used her in multiple different ways and the voice was consistent throughout.

Karen Nix: 24:29

So that would be hard to do Like. If it wasn't, then it wouldn't really work, but it is. So I was able to, you know, use that same voice for a seven hour course and it sounds the same in the seventh module as it did in the first. So that was. That was nice. Technology is a wonderful thing.

Jackie Pelegrin: 24:48

It is. It's amazing, wow. One thing that we we talked a little bit about earlier is the visual storytelling and that collaboration. Those are things that are so important, especially in our role, so those are also important themes in your approach to instructional design as well. So, how do you turn complex healthcare topics into engaging, easy to understand learning experiences, and how important is that collaborative process for you?

Karen Nix: 25:15

Collaboration is huge because, like we talked about, you know I'm not the expert, they are the experts and, like, for instance, we're doing a simulation series right now, which is not certainly not my area of expertise, and taking that the substance of what they they need to convey to the learner and their expertise, it can be. It can be difficult, especially when you know SMEs like the nurse planner works on my team, she's my SME all the time Like we have shorthand for how she needs to get information to me so that I can create court, like I. I barely need to, like, check in with her anymore. It's just like a a very quick, fast paced development process because we know each other so well. But with SMEs who don't usually work with our team or who have never not experienced being a SME before, that can be a more difficult process because you know they're taking time out of their day. This may be something that's assigned to them, this may be something that they're really excited to do, but they still have a whole job to do besides. And they you get them for a limited amount of time and you need to, you know, get the information from them in a way that makes sense to you so that you can work with it. I find that the easiest thing for me to do is to have them put it in a PowerPoint, which is so old school, but it helps me to visually understand.

Karen Nix: 26:55

If you were in a live training and you were conveying this information to a live audience, how would you facilitate that? In what order would the how would the information build on itself? How you know what? What anecdotal information might you convey to that live audience that you wouldn't necessarily think to write down? I think some of the nuances are in the things that they wouldn't necessarily think to give to the instructional designer. They might give me some facts. You know SMEs might give me the facts that are in their wheelhouse, but I'm looking for nuance so that I can really understand.

Karen Nix: 27:44

I like context. I'm not sure if every instructional designer does, but my boss will tell you. I'm always saying I like context. I want to really understand what you know. I like to see the forest and the trees. I like both.

Karen Nix: 28:00

So it requires, like, a lot of conversation, and I do. I like that power, but I like to have a physical, like old school. Show me how you would chunk this out and and then build on that, like so that, so that what I have in my final course is not just like bullet points, but I have something you know more engaging. Then we build on that through conversation and me asking questions and me sort of digging deeper into some of the things that they've given me. So it's a back and forth process, but, yeah, so I'm actually doing that right now. Some of the things that they've they've given me, so it's a it's a back and forth process, but, um, but yeah, so I'm actually doing that right now we're working on I'm working with three outside SMEs right now, which is, um, something I always get to do. Uh, but I have done a lot in this last year. Um, so, yeah, that's how I, that's how I go about it.

Jackie Pelegrin: 28:56

I love that. Yeah, it's great, and I like the fact, karen, that you look at the SMEs and have they done this before and have they not? And you approach each one a little bit different, so that way it's not a one-size-fits-all. That's important, because in the work that I do, too, that's something I'm very conscious about and making sure that, yeah, that I come alongside them and it's a partnership, it's uh, and it's not something where I'm just dictating to them what they need to do or what I need from them, but it's a it's a sharing knowledge type of thing. So it's it's great, yeah, and I should mention storyboarding.

Karen Nix: 29:32

Like you know, my next step, after I get all the information, is to present them with a storyboard. Um, I will say that when I'm working with the nurse planner and we have our, like shorthand, I don't even bother with a storyboard anymore. But, um, that is sort of the. The nature of instructional design is that the. The next step is to show them what you're thinking, um, show them how you would put it in. You know the format and then and then have them react to it, and yeah, so that's my next step in in what I'm working on right now.

Jackie Pelegrin: 30:10

Actually, that's awesome. I love that Sounds like you got a lot of great projects and that the the master's program and all that you learned is really helping to shape that even better to where you can. You feel like you can take things to the next level for for the faculty and for the, ultimately, the students. Right, because it impacts the students too. I love that.

Karen Nix: 30:31

Absolutely.

Jackie Pelegrin: 30:32

Learner focus. I love that. That's great. So, as we wrap up, what are some tips and advice you can share with those who are looking to complete a master's program in instructional design, like you did so?

Karen Nix: 30:42

I would say that you should come as you are and be prepared to work hard, because I, like I said, I didn't. It was over a year program. It was what 14 months into life I can't even remember, but I did not read for pleasure. The entire year I had a lot of deadlines at work and then I'd have a lot of deadlines at school. It was a lot of work, I'm not going to lie.

Karen Nix: 31:11

I think some of the people who are newer to instructional design, who are part of the program, were really nervous about the tools and knowing how to use the tools and you know, being experts in those and people with more experience might be throwing around different terms like articulate or whatever, and people get nervous about. Oh, I don't know that. Do I have to know that in order to take this program? And you really don't?

Karen Nix: 31:44

A lot of people were teachers from a teaching background going into this master's program and I learned a lot from them, because I don't. I don't work with the the learner. I've never been in, you know the teacher in an educational setting. I learned a lot from them. We learn from each other and you don't have to be an expert. You don't have, so don't get distracted by all the fancy gadgets and all the fancy tools and the authoring tools, or I should know this, or I should know that it won't matter. And I think across the board, except for where multimedia, we had to work specifically with some tools. For the most part, all of our instructors were flexible about what you used, so the teachers had more familiarity with things like Genially, which I didn't actually, and I happen to have Articulate, so I have Storyline, I have Rise, so those are tools of my trade. But other people were using other things and that's okay. We all still manage to do our projects and the instructors were really flexible about that. So that's what I would say.

Jackie Pelegrin: 32:59

Yeah, I love that Going into it just with an open mind. I love that and I like, I like what you said, come as you are, because yeah, we're never gonna. I noticed that with my master's program, too, I was thinking the same thing. I had that imposter syndrome and I'm like and I doubted myself you probably did that too sometimes and I'm like, can I really do this? And I what I did?

Jackie Pelegrin: 33:20

I uh with my when I got my MBA and then when I went back for the second master's, I was like, oh dear, what am I getting myself into? But at the same time I was like, no, I really love this. I I'm kind of like you. I had once I knew it was what I wanted to do. I just went for it. And I'm like I'm just going to do the whole master's because I loved all the courses and yeah, and there were. So I would keep a list of the courses on my refrigerator and I'd mark them off as I went and I'm like, oh great, this is my next class and that visual of it.

Karen Nix: 33:50

So yeah, yeah, it's such an accomplishment Honestly, it's it really. It does feel like an accomplishment and I do miss the. I got a lot of feedback Like I don't necessarily get that at work because we're just, it's my job, I'm doing it every day, we're busy, but during the program I got a lot of like feedback and collaboration and I loved all of that. So I'm actually thinking about about like what should I do next? Should I go back for another master? Should I go for my doctorate? Like what should I do? Because I really long for more of that learning and that, that collaboration and that getting the feedback on what you're producing, and like I really enjoyed the whole, the whole thing.

Jackie Pelegrin: 34:35

Right, that's great. I love that. Yeah, that's great advice because I think sometimes this field people aren't familiar with it, right. I don't know about you, but do you still? If people ask you what you do for a living, you tell them you're an instructional designer. Do you get that confused?

Karen Nix: 34:51

blank look, yes, and honestly, I was in learning and development for years and years and I didn't ever hold the title of instructional designer until later in my career and I wouldn't have been able to explain to you what one specifically did, even though I had experienced myself with curriculum development and design and all of that and design and all of that. But I didn't have like the. I didn't really understand the job that entails, all of the things that I enjoy doing. So that's another thing that I would tell people who are new in instructional design, because I see that there are a lot of people who would like to transition into that as a career, who would like to transition into that as a career.

Karen Nix: 35:44

There are many jobs out there where you can get experience in learning and development and doing things like, like curriculum development and instructional design that are not called instructional designer, but they are in the training, learning and development, professional development. Any of those sort of realms where you can get a lot of experience might be even in like a nonprofit or, you know, community-based organization who need training. That's a great way to get experience If you don't have any. But you know that's what you want to aim for. That's how I learned and I learned in those sorts of places where they don't have huge teams of people. You get to learn a lot by doing, which I think is invaluable. So I'm actually glad that I did my master's program at this stage of my career instead of earlier, because I have a deeper understanding and I knew exactly what, like what I wanted to get out of the program and how I could take what I learned and bring it back to my job.

Jackie Pelegrin: 36:47

so, um, so, yeah, that's great, I love that. A lot of great advice, karen. I love it. So thank you so much for sharing your insights today. I know your experiences in instructional design and in healthcare education are sure to inspire my listeners because, as we know, education, healthcare those industries are continuing to grow and there's so much need for high quality education all around. So I appreciate that Absolutely. Thank you for having me Wonderful.

Jackie Pelegrin: 37:13

I look forward to having you back on the show, maybe down the road, so we can kind of see what you're up to, because I love kind of getting that pulse on how everybody's doing and where you are, maybe a few months down the road. And yeah, you never know, like you said, maybe you'll go for a doctorate, another master's, who knows? I would love that. Yeah, looking forward to it. Great Thanks again, karen. I appreciate it. Thank Great. Thanks again, karen, I appreciate it. Thank you for taking some time to listen to this podcast episode today. Your support means the world to me. If you'd like to help keep the podcast going, you can share it with a friend or colleague, leave a heartfelt review or offer a monetary contribution. Every act of support, big or small, makes a difference and I'm truly thankful for you.