The Regular Guys Bible Study
The Regular Guys Bible Study podcast -- RGBS -- is a podcast for regular guys by regular guys (not theologians) studying the Bible together. It's brought to you by a couple of goofy guys who just want to study the Bible together and show you that anyone can read and study the Bible. In fact, you SHOULD read and study the Bible yourself. We're here to show you how we do it, and, hopefully, we can have some fun along the way.
The Regular Guys Bible Study
Romans 4
The discussion focuses on Romans chapter 4, highlighting Abraham's faith as the source of righteousness, rather than works or religious practices. The hosts emphasize the liberating message of justification through faith in God’s promises and encourage listeners to explore their personal faith journey.
• Emphasis on faith over works
• Abraham’s righteousness credited before circumcision
• Clarification of the significance of justification
• Exploration of Paul’s message to the Romans
• Encouragement for active engagement with Scripture
• Reminder of upcoming topics in the next episode
Please leave comments at: https://theregularguysbs.kas-m.com
You are listening to the Regular Guys Bible Study Podcast, the Bible study for regular guys by regular guys. We are your hosts, Ken and Steve, and we are just regular guys studying the Bible together.
Speaker 2:Not theologians.
Speaker 1:Not theologians, and maybe not even technically competent.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think we've proven that tonight.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah. So for those of you who can't see us, steve had lots of technical issues today getting started, and what's funny is I really want to call Steve stupid. But so, steve, a friend of mine, was in town this past weekend and you know what? He's been listening, apparently, to our Romans podcast, and do you know what his? Do you know what? The first thing he said to me when I saw him who is that other guy with that whiny voice? No, he said, man, you're mean to steve.
Speaker 2:He called me out as being mean to you, so I'd like to say you do it in love, but I think we all know the truth now see, now that's.
Speaker 1:You know it's in love steve wouldn't that be steve love?
Speaker 2:I don't, I don't know, I don't even want to go there I just want to say I'm a little excited about this chapter, and not because I have great insights, look. The trouble is we've had getting to do this podcast.
Speaker 1:Uh-oh, steve, hello Steve, steve, don't do that to me. No man, you were like disappeared. You disappeared on me. What's going on here?
Speaker 2:Audio or visual.
Speaker 1:Audio.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:All right. Why are you excited, Steve? I just said it all.
Speaker 2:No, you didn't. I said we've had so much trouble producing this podcast, it must be a really good one.
Speaker 1:I think you're right. Satan is like all over this sucker, isn't he?
Speaker 2:And it's not because I have great notes on it, I don't, yeah but you know we're a week late and then we've had all these technical difficulties.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So you're about to fall asleep.
Speaker 1:I'm not about to fall asleep. I am tired, though I had a tough day. I didn't get home until really late, but that's all right, steve. Look, we are not here to complain about ourselves or the problems that we've had. You know, we're going through Acts right now at church and Paul is about to be shipwrecked yet again. I don't know if this is the first time or no.
Speaker 2:I guess this is the second time.
Speaker 1:This has to be the very last time, actually, because he's about to be put to death, but you know, it's never recorded that Paul complained about these. These struggles and our struggles are so much easier than his.
Speaker 2:He did complain about one thing what oh the thorn in the side thorn?
Speaker 1:in his side, but he also recognized that it was put there to keep him from being arrogant, so all right. Well, what's that?
Speaker 2:steve, I was gonna say you need a thorn yeah, because I'm super arrogant.
Speaker 1:Uh, uh, you know what? Hey, let's get going hold on before we get. Why don't you turn off noise suppression? I think there might be some of that going on and that could be one of the problems. All right, guys, but while he's doing that, look, if you have not already read Romans chapter 4, then just pause this, go read it and be prepared to think about it instead of having to pay attention so much when we read it, and be prepared to think about it instead of having to pay attention so much when we read it. Really again, I want to emphasize the point of this whole podcast is that anybody can and should read the Bible. You don't have to be somebody special to understand what the Bible is saying. So let's get started and read chapter four. Steve, do you want to read through chapter? I mean through verse 15? Sure, how do I sound?
Speaker 2:Or do you want me to do that?
Speaker 1:You sound okay, I mean like normal.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:So not any better. I messed with settings.
Speaker 2:But now I'm back to that screen where I wasn't able to get back to.
Speaker 1:There's an X in the top right Steve, A big X.
Speaker 2:Not on every screen I have to click away. It's really annoying. All right, this is why we should maybe do it in person. I don't know.
Speaker 1:You need to move out here where I am Going, from where to where. Read from chapter 4, verse 1 through 15.
Speaker 2:Very well, what then shall we say that Abraham our forefather, according to the flesh discovered in this matter?
Speaker 1:Hold on.
Speaker 2:I think we need to back up. So the previous chapter spoke of how we are saved by faith, not works, and this one is going to talk about how that relates to Abraham.
Speaker 1:Yeah, relates to Abraham. Yeah, and it also talked about it says yes of Gentiles too, since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. So all right, let's start over.
Speaker 2:All right, but then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. What does Scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Now, to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God, who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Speaker 2:David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness. Apart from works, blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Is this blessedness only for the circumcised or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised or before? It was not after but before, and he received circumcision as a sign, a seal, of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So, then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised in order that the righteousness might be credited to them, and he is then also the father of the circumcised, who are not only circumcised, but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. If I have to say, circumcised one more time.
Speaker 1:I think there might be a couple more. No, maybe not, let's keep on.
Speaker 2:It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who depend on the laws are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath, and where there is no law, there is no transgression.
Speaker 1:All right, that was a lot of circumcision talk. Steve, you must really like that topic.
Speaker 2:You know I'm feeling a little sore after reading all that. A little cringy.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I don't remember it, Steve. So Well, let's just leave it at that all right well no one wants to hear about your calamari I don't think they served it as calamari to anyone steve I hope not. Anyway, let's unpack what this is trying to say. So let's talk about real quick what is Paul trying to do here? What's the basis of this speech?
Speaker 2:I think he's trying to just put the nail in the coffin that you're saved by faith and not by works, but also that circumcision is a work and therefore isn't necessity.
Speaker 1:Right, so his I think. I think he's talking to the Jews here who are saying that what are the Jews saying about him, do you remember? They're saying that he is abandoning the law, right, but and? And I'm getting I'm also getting in my brain confused a little bit because we're going through Acts at church and at the end of Acts, so I'm hoping I'm not getting things confused from Acts and Romans.
Speaker 2:Well, they were the whole book so far is they were upset about the Gentiles not getting circumcised right.
Speaker 1:Yes, in other words, they need to become Jews, because that's like the biggest measure of a Jew. Have you been circumcised? So his point here is he's been preaching salvation to the Gentiles through faith and the Jews are against that. But his point here he's talking about Abraham, who's the father of all the tribes. Right, he is the father of many nations, and his point here is that Abraham did not get circumcised. And then God said wow, you did a great thing to do that thing to yourself. I'm going to give you children because you have been so faithful. Right, he first believed God and was faithful, and that was credited to him. Right, not his circumcision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if you recall, god came to Abraham, I don't know, somewhere over in Iraq, I think, or Iran, wherever he was living. I don't know and told him, hey, go over that way. And he got up and went, yep. And then later, when he came and told him he was going to have a child, and they were already in their 90s or 100 years old, he was faithful and believed in God. But I do have a question for you.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:A slight aside. Okay, yep, a slight aside. Okay, who?
Speaker 1:worshipped God after Adam up until Abraham? Well, not very many people. That's because that's when Noah was there, right? So all the people quit worshiping God, except for Noah and his family. I think you're wrong on that, am I? Why do you say that?
Speaker 2:I did a little research. So there was Noah, that one for sure. But they also think Job is one of the oldest books of the Bible or the oldest story, and so that probably comes between Adam and Abraham.
Speaker 1:Okay, I don't—how would they know how old the story is? Because I mean okay the story, though, because I mean okay the story, though it's not like Noah wrote the book of the flood, right, or did he? No, the pages would have gotten all wet who wrote the book.
Speaker 2:What is that?
Speaker 1:Is that Moses?
Speaker 2:I think that was all Moses.
Speaker 1:So Moses wrote that he wrote the story of the creation. I don't remember who wrote Job. We might not know who wrote Job, but you know those stories were written way after the story happened. So you know, I don't know how you would say Job is between, he could be. I'm not saying he's not.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying, well, my point of bringing it up in the first place. There was no such thing as a Jew, Not until Israel slash Jacob. And Jacob was Abraham's grandchild under Isaac. That is true.
Speaker 1:That's true. That's when? Is that when circumcision started?
Speaker 2:No, it started with Abraham.
Speaker 1:It started with Abraham. Okay, so circumcision started with Abraham. But the nation of Israel started with Abraham. It started with Abraham, okay, so circumcision started with.
Speaker 2:Abraham, but the nation of Israel started with Jacob.
Speaker 1:I see, so Jacob is the one who was called Israel. Okay, yep, all right, I just kind of assumed it was Abraham, because Father Abraham had many sons. Many sons had Father Abraham. I'm one of them, and so are you, so let's just praise the Lord Well you know Ishmael his other son. I know him very well.
Speaker 2:Was the father of the Arab nations.
Speaker 1:Yes, so the father of Islam.
Speaker 2:More or less yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep, that is true, and I've been told that. Uh, uh, Uh, uh. That teaching teaches that Jacob took Ishmael up to sacrifice instead of hold it. No, I'm getting confused Ishmael instead of Isaac, yeah.
Speaker 2:You have a son named Isaac I do. Did you ever try to take him up for a sacrifice?
Speaker 1:I do, I did. Did you ever try to take him up for a sacrifice? I do, I did.
Speaker 2:And he cut my Achilles with a knife and I was unable to complete it. Interesting.
Speaker 1:I don't. That is a completely made-up story, by the way.
Speaker 2:It sounded like you were getting into like Roman mythology or something.
Speaker 1:I just said something. All right, anyway, I don't even know where we're at now, steve, yeah, I don't either Well one thing he says is and this is the very last two verses that you read he said and this is the very last two verses that you read, he said For if those who depend on the law are heirs?
Speaker 1:yeah, if those, for if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath, and where there is no law, there is no transgression, and where there is no law, there is no transgression.
Speaker 2:So is that saying, if Moses hadn't gotten the stone tablets from God, that we'd all be in the good? Because there's no law?
Speaker 1:You know, I thought that at first, maybe, but I think there was the original law. God gave us an original law with Adam and Eve, right, and he said don't eat of that tree, the tree of knowledge, of good and evil. And that law. If they did not have that rule, could they have sinned? There's an answer here.
Speaker 2:I don't think you could.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's possible because they would have no law right, and so the one law they were given in her I say they, but I'm going to change that to we the one law that we were given at the creation of us was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Speaker 1:We had one law, one law to follow and we couldn't do it. We could not do it, we broke that law. So I think that because of that, we are lawbreakers, because it says for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and I think we are born to that sin. So where there is no law, there is no transgression. However, we were born into transgression because of our ancestors.
Speaker 2:I like that explanation Ken.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I'm not stupid, steve, sometimes.
Speaker 2:I'm stupid, ken. No, you're stupid, ken. All right, are you ready to move on? It never gets old. No, it doesn't. I thought I had something else here. Oh, back up at the top he says if, in fact, abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. So he would boast, you know, to his nephew.
Speaker 1:I mean, who would he boast to? I think the point is his works would have been nothing to God, is what he's saying. I mean, let's say he works really hard and gets this huge herd of sheep because of all of his good work and they hardly have any blemish or anything. So he's doing great. He could brag to his neighbor, but you know, bragging to God about that that's. You know, that's. That's kind of works. How's that gonna God's? Gonna say good job, dude, I guess.
Speaker 2:Do you think that when we do God's work or do good, does he owe us anything?
Speaker 1:No, Do you?
Speaker 2:No, I don't think so. In fact, I think that's exactly what it says. Well, it sort of says both, because it says now, to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God, who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. I think the real takeaway there is if we were able to keep the law and do all the good works, then, yes, it would be due as an obligation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we know that we can't at Austin, ridge says, is, if you were to be able to keep the law completely and perfectly, then you would be righteous, but no one can do that. I think he said that, didn't he say that?
Speaker 2:He always says we're all big fat sinners.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some of us are fatter than others. True, but what was I going to say? I had something.
Speaker 2:I was going to say Steve, Was it? You were going to read 16 to the end.
Speaker 1:No, I was going to do that, but I was going to say something else. Oh well, maybe it'll come to me in a bit. All right, so let me read 16 to the end. Therefore, the promise comes by faith. Okay, therefore, what's it there for? That's what we just read about. You know the law, because the law brings wrath, and where there is no law, there is no transgression.
Speaker 1:All right, so, therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all, to all Abraham's offspring, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who have faith, the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations. He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
Speaker 1:Against all hope, abraham, in hope, believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him. So shall your offspring be. Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead, since he was about 100 years old, and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why it was credit to him as righteousness. The words it was credit to him were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will create righteousness, whom God will credit righteousness For us who believe in him, who raised Jesus, our Lord, from the dead.
Speaker 2:He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for so to me, the bigger act of faith that Abraham did is when he took Isaac up and was going to sacrifice him. I mean, yeah, it takes faith to believe you're going to get, you know, have a child in your 90s, but okay, if it doesn't happen you're not really out anything right. But here he had a son in hand and trusted God enough that you know somehow Isaac would be delivered from being sacrificed, that he was willing to go through with it.
Speaker 1:I see what you're saying. My problem with that is he didn't have to go through with it. I don't know if he could have. I mean I know he was planning on it, right, he went as far as he did. He did go very far, even tied him to the bundle, right. Yeah, before God gave a lamb for the slaughter.
Speaker 2:And he raised his son to have faith in God as well enough, such that Isaac didn't really fight back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the interesting thing is there was no well in the scripture, and I'm sorry you'll have to read this story in. Where is what book of the Bible? Is that in Genesis? That's in Genesis. Okay, man, you're a smart dude, steve. You know what I like you because you're not stupid at all, you're very smart.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're so nice to me, Ken. It is just great. I just love all these compliments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's who I am, Steve. That's how I treat you all the time because, that's the way we interact with each other. Okay, yeah, so read the story in Genesis if you want more context around that, and I think you should. It's a really good story. I love the story of Abraham and Isaac Abraham and what's his wife's name, sarah and Isaac and taking him up on the mountain to sacrifice him.
Speaker 2:Around chapter 15-ish.
Speaker 1:So read chapter 15-ish. So read chapter 15-ish of Genesis. It might be a little later.
Speaker 2:I just clicked on one of the references and it was chapter 15.
Speaker 1:Alright. So yeah, I don't know if one took more faith than the other, but I guess did two angels come and speak to him Um about, on the first one, that he was going to have kids? Is that is that when that happened?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there were two visits, and one of them Sarah laughs.
Speaker 1:Sarah laughed and she got in trouble for that yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't actually remember. There were definitely two visits.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, but I can tell you this as somebody who I claim to have had a vision from God, actually about my children. So, as somebody who has had something like that, I can say that it becomes really easy to have that faith when you feel like you've actually been spoken to by God. It's cool, it is a different thing and it's really strange. It can be uncomfortable because, you know, especially for someone like me who when someone says God told me to tell you can blah, I don't really believe that God told them. You know, it's like I, I'm a very skeptical person and then and then I'm the one saying it. So, you know, I wonder if he struggled ever, but it doesn't sound like he ever struggled with that faith.
Speaker 2:I find that hard to believe what I think he did struggle. You think he did? Yeah, because he ended up taking the maid servant and having Ishmael, you're right about that, steve. Because that was in between the first and second visits.
Speaker 1:That's a good point, okay, however, well, I don't know. Let me just say this, when, and so I don't want to go into my story right now, but I do want to say it had to do with having kids or not, and when God told me we would have our own biological kids, we went and adopted a child from China. At that point, and that seems, do you?
Speaker 2:think that was a lack of faith.
Speaker 1:It was not at all, in fact, because the thing that kept me from doing it was the thought of giving up, and I had not given up at all. I knew it happened and I said hey, let's do this in the meantime, because there was no doubt in my mind.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't do it before then.
Speaker 1:Interesting. All right, yeah, and I mean you can talk to people who knew me back then. You didn't know me back then, but, um, uh, they can. They can vouch for that answer because it's, it's completely the truth.
Speaker 2:You know, I think I knew of you back then.
Speaker 1:You almost knew me back then, because I had started at the company.
Speaker 2:I remember the first time I met you. I thought you were a jerk.
Speaker 1:You know what I probably was. I was a lot and you know what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think my opinions changed much you know what.
Speaker 1:I will say this, and I'm not joking um, when I was that age, when I first started, I was kind of an. I was kind of arrogant about who I was. I thought I was something special. Um, in my job, that is, um, in the rest of life I really didn't. I don't think I lived arrogant, but in my job I thought I was like Mr, mr, the smartest guy in the world and I knew how to do stuff. And if you didn't want to do it my way, then you're an idiot. So I've learned a lot since then.
Speaker 2:It's good that we can grow.
Speaker 1:Yes, all right, so anything else from here, steve.
Speaker 2:I think we should go over the last three verses again. The words it was credited to him were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness For us who believe in him, who raised Jesus, our Lord, from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Speaker 1:That's how we get saved by grace, right? So it was okay, it was credited to him. We're not for him alone, but also for us. So you're saying that means he's saying that now we are also saved by faith, not by works, if we believe in him.
Speaker 2:Right if we believe in him.
Speaker 1:Right for us who believe in him, who raised Jesus, our Lord from the dead. Now, what's interesting there? He does not say who believe in Jesus who's raised from the dead, but to him for us who believe in him, who raised Jesus, our Lord, from the dead. So he's talking about God, the Father.
Speaker 2:Right, but think of his audience. He's talking to Jews.
Speaker 1:I know, I'm just pointing that out. He does not start this with believe in Jesus. He's saying believe in God, who raised Jesus from the dead, yep. And then he goes to who Jesus is, a little bit. He says he was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. What does that mean? He paid the price, all right, so delivered over to death for our sins, meaning he paid the price for our sins, right, yep.
Speaker 2:But then the raised to life for our justification well, he was also given the reward of living a perfect life, which is eternal life, and so he had to be raised from the dead in order to finish paying the price, which is death, and then he was given life for eternity because he did follow all the law perfectly.
Speaker 1:I guess, though, what I'm asking about is the for our justification. What does that mean? What is our justification?
Speaker 2:Jesus, jesus, jesus Jesus.
Speaker 1:Steve, you're supposed to be the smart one there's two people here. Yes, it's true, there's two people here. We've got me and we've got the smart one.
Speaker 2:Where do I fit into this?
Speaker 1:Okay, that's not fair, because people say I'm mean to you and now you're mean to you.
Speaker 2:I just learned it from you, Ken. I learned it from you.
Speaker 1:Yes, I don't know. Alright, I'm gonna. Okay, let's see. What is this? Romans for what? Romans for what? What is that verse?
Speaker 2:it's for our good Ken is that dang it?
Speaker 1:you's for our good Ken, is that Dang it? You're not helping me here, 25. 25 25.
Speaker 2:Are you asking? Chat GPT.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, actually I'm not. I'm asking the Googles, google version of it yep, whatever that is. Um, let's see, jesus's death was an atonement for our sin. That's the first um. Jesus' resurrection was a divine assurance that he had put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. So saying that the resurrection was the divine assurance of that, let's see, resurrection also testified that sin was atoned for and that everlasting righteousness was brought in.
Speaker 2:I'm going to suggest that we're not going to find an answer tonight.
Speaker 1:What does justification mean? I'm going to task that we're not going to find an answer tonight. What does justification mean?
Speaker 2:I'm going to task you with a homework.
Speaker 1:No, you're not All right. Let me just say what the definition of justification is. It's an action of showing something to be right or reasonable, the action of declaring or making righteous in the sight of God. Okay, so this is what I think it means. I think it means, by his resurrection, he's proving it, proved that this sacrifice meant something, because, um, there's lots of people that die steve in fact two other people died on the bright side of life.
Speaker 1:Okay, I don't remember that part in scripture, but Wait, that might have been a Monty Python movie.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, oh gosh.
Speaker 1:I'm sure. Look, monty Python movies are so sacrilegious. Steve, I can't believe you watch those things. Those are horrible, and now we'll judge you for it. Um, anyway, I think the point is he's saying so. Um, you know, he's saying that first of all, that he was, he was put to death for our sins, to take away our sins, and now we are justified in believing that by him being raised from the dead by God, that's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 2:I'm good with that, all right.
Speaker 1:All right, all right. That's the end of chapter four, steve, anything else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is. I think you failed to mention last time that you set up some sort of website where people can give feedback.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is true. I wonder if I can leave that. You know what? Oh, that is true. I wonder if I can leave that. You know what? I'm going to put that information in the name of my LLC, chasm K A S dash Mcom. See, that's why it doesn't really help to say things.
Speaker 1:No one's going to remember that, Steve but I will but I will put a link, if you go to the, to the description of the next of this podcast. I will have a link in there to our website where you can download the podcast directly. You can listen to them directly there if you'd like, and there will. You can leave comments and ask questions. Do whatever you want on there and we can respond as well. Thanks, steve, for reminding me of that.
Speaker 2:I can't, I can't believe I remembered. Yeah, I for reminding me of that. I can't believe I remembered.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have forgotten about that. We've had it there the last two times, right, and I haven't done anything. All right, well, that's it, guys. So remember Romans, chapter 5 next week, read up. That's it. That's it, the regular guys. Bible study is a chasm. Llc production. All rights reserved.
