The Regular Guys Bible Study
The Regular Guys Bible Study podcast -- RGBS -- is a podcast for regular guys by regular guys (not theologians) studying the Bible together. It's brought to you by a couple of goofy guys who just want to study the Bible together and show you that anyone can read and study the Bible. In fact, you SHOULD read and study the Bible yourself. We're here to show you how we do it, and, hopefully, we can have some fun along the way.
The Regular Guys Bible Study
2 Thessalonians 2
Ken and Steve dive into 2 Thessalonians 2, examining prophecies about the end times, the Antichrist, and powerful delusions sent to those who reject truth.
• Testing spiritual messages against scripture when someone claims "God told me something"
• Exploring the "rebellion" that must occur before Christ's return
• Understanding the "man of lawlessness" and his connection to the Antichrist
• Discussing what supernatural powers Satan and his agents might possess
• Examining God's sending of "powerful delusions" to those who reject truth
• Debating the value of tradition in Christianity versus tradition for tradition's sake
• Remembering the core commands given to Gentile churches in Acts
Read 2 Thessalonians 3 for our next and final episode of this season!
You are listening to the Regular Guys Bible Study Podcast, the Bible study for regular guys by regular guys. We are your hosts, ken and Steve, and we are just regular guys studying the Bible together, not theologians. Not theologians, rock on.
Speaker 2:Are you excited, Ken?
Speaker 1:Of course I'm excited Ken. That's why they call me excited Ken. What are we talking about?
Speaker 2:College football starts this weekend.
Speaker 1:You know I love college football, but it's one of those things Am I excited, I'm more, I get uptight and scared.
Speaker 2:Oh, you take it seriously. That's the problem. Well, you know I went to a winning school, steve, since when? 2004? Is that the last time, you guys?
Speaker 1:won 2004. Oh, I thought you meant when I was in school. I was saying no way.
Speaker 2:No, I'm talking about when Vince Young won it all for you. Wasn't that 2005?
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, you know, the Colt McCoy brought us some good years.
Speaker 2:Never won it all, but brought us some good years. Yeah, sometimes the blimp is up. I haven't seen it recently, though.
Speaker 1:The blimp.
Speaker 2:What are we talking about it recently though? The blimp. What are?
Speaker 1:we the good year blimp. Oh, he brought you some good years. Oh man, boom man we. You know what I think that is like gonna be our staple joke for today, because apparently we're not gonna be funny at all today, steve I'm gonna just drop the mic right now that was awful.
Speaker 1:Ah, dang it. I um. Have you ever made salsa steve like from scratch? So yes, so we have these jalapeno plants outside. By the way, guys, we're on second thessalonians, chapter two, today. If you haven't read it, you should pause now and go read it, or?
Speaker 1:don't bother, don't pause the story I'm gonna tell, but my uh. So my wife planted a couple of jalapeno bushes, or little plants, and they grew some jalapenos, and so we decided you know what, let's make some salsa with our jalapenos. So we did that yesterday. Um and uh. So you know, I washed my hands multiple times because I don't want to get that in my eye. Well, so I also have this eye infection that I have to put some stuff in my eye. Had it for a really long time. But anyway, when I went to bed last night, I put the stuff on my finger and then stuck it in my eye and it felt like my eye was gonna burn out oh, that ought to kill that infection, right yeah maybe but and your and your vision all right.
Speaker 1:So I've washed my hands a lot since then, and right before I hit play on this podcast, I touched my eye and it burned.
Speaker 2:I still have jalapeno oil on my fingers so some people wear gloves when they cut jalapenos you know what that's? Because they're wimps I really I don't hear them crying about it into a microphone uh, okay, fair point, all right anyway.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, that it's amazing how long jalapeno stays on your fingers and I have an important question yes, but go ahead, no, no, go ahead and no, no, it's and there's no, and.
Speaker 2:Are we reading NIV or ESV?
Speaker 1:I'm going to read NIV. I think we should read NIV All right, you're going to read. No, I said, as you read, I'm going to read NIV, like to myself, and you're going to start off reading and you can read whatever translation you want. What are you reading? Klingon you know what I kind of think? You're nerdy enough that that might actually say something no, I don't know klingon.
Speaker 2:sorry, I'm not quite that nerdy, I'm close, but not that bad.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:All right, are we ready?
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's do this thing. Let's read 2 Thessalonians 2 in what translation?
Speaker 2:NIV, niv.
Speaker 1:And you're going to read down to verse 12.
Speaker 2:Yep, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him. We ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us, whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter, asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any. With you, I used to tell you these things, and now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed in the proper time, for the secret power of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. Holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by a splendor of his coming.
Speaker 2:The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power, through signs and wonders that serve the lie and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason, god sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Speaker 1:All right, Thanks, Steve. I just realized I took most of my notes in ESV. So my notes I can see my notes, but they don't have markers when I look at them. That's funny oh man, I get it the humor so what do you got?
Speaker 2:what do you got all right?
Speaker 1:so I have a note on uh. I put a note on verse two because it says do not become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us, whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter, asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. So that I think we might have talked about this before. But has anyone ever come to you and said God told me this.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Same. How do you know that God really told them that?
Speaker 2:You just believe it, you just trust them and take it at their face value.
Speaker 1:Is that what Paul teaches? Is that?
Speaker 2:what Paul says. What does Paul say to do? Test it against scripture.
Speaker 1:Test it. Yes, test it. Some things might not be testable, though against scripture. Though against scripture. For example, if somebody said God came to me and said that you need to buy your neighbor a new car, I mean, the scripture says to be generous, but you know that doesn't say to buy your neighbor a new car. You know, maybe how do you know what God?
Speaker 1:if God really said that, if that's really God said that if that's really God Did he give you the money to buy this car and give you the heart to do it. Is that the test?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't know how you test this against scripture.
Speaker 1:I thought we put our phones on mute, ken um, I, you know I put it on do not disturb, but then when I enter my bible app, it changed it automatically to reduce interruptions, and so my son just called me work, worked, worked really well. Yeah, I think I need to have that be do not disturb actually instead of reduced interruptions, because my son just called me and could you hear it ringing? Yes, woo-hoo, he's always wanting to be on a podcast, all right.
Speaker 1:So anyway, yeah, my point is, it's not always clear how to test, but I think there are some things we can do. First of all is definitely look at Scripture right. That's the very first thing. The second thing, and that's what he talks about here, second thing is to pray about it yourself, because if you are following God, you should have conviction of that yourself. That's my belief. If there's a message from god to you, um, through another person, I think that you, what are you doing? Steve? You're like floating. So anyway, test.
Speaker 2:So I had a note there as well. What would be the motive of someone trying to convince them that Christ had already come?
Speaker 1:They've been left. Why are you doing that? You've already been left. He came and left you. You're wasting your time.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that's the only thing I could come up with. I can't see any real monetary gain to it, only a spiritual gain yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, I don't think they would gain anything monetarily, or it's just people like to be mean to other people. Sometimes it's kind of just to be, mean All right, what else do you got? I got other stuff.
Speaker 2:Let's see I have something about rebellion here. Um, it has a reference to matthew 24, 10 through 12 um, okay, that is verse three.
Speaker 2:It's verse three, where verse three says don't let any anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. And Matthew 24, 10-12 says At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of.
Speaker 1:So you know, the theologians relate this rebellion back to that scripture as well.
Speaker 2:Right, that's that's why you have this note, right yeah that wasn't on your own accordion no, it was a little letter next to the word yeah, I have some same stuff here and this man of lawlessness.
Speaker 1:Oh, did you want to say more about the rebellion? I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:No, I just cross-referencing, and those were Jesus' words.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in that same verse it talks about, the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction, and there's a lot of references to that. And it's all talking about when the Antichrist comes or the beast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. My NIV Bible does not have all those references, but the ESV does.
Speaker 1:Really you need to get a different Bible app, so mine points to. Daniel 7.25, daniel 8.25, daniel 11.36,. 2 Thessalonians 2.8. Oh, that's this, Revelation 13.5 and Revelation 13.6.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:So all talking about when the antichrist comes? Um, okay, um, anything else about that? So well, we're talking about um, let's see.
Speaker 2:So oh, there it is. It's just in a different spot, it's in both.
Speaker 1:Okay. So he says don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. So the Antichrist must be revealed before Christ comes again. So is that the same thing that because we're going through Revelation right now in our church? Is that the same thing our pastor says, Because he talks about.
Speaker 2:I don't know. It's about the tribulation. A couple of weeks ago he talked about the Antichrist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:You were paying real close attention.
Speaker 1:I was, but my memory's not great. Who are you?
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 1:I don't know. All right 2 Thessalonians 2.6 says do you have more about what we were just talking about? All right, 2 Thessalonians 2.6 says and now you know what is holding him. I'm sorry, let's look at 5 first. Don't you remember that when I was with you, I used to tell you these things? And no, no, it's just six. And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. Who and what is holding him back.
Speaker 2:I would assume it has to be God or angels put at the prison gates of hell, holding him back.
Speaker 1:It's in God's direction. Who is being held back is it, the man of lawlessness.
Speaker 2:That's what it feels like as a him that's what I think.
Speaker 1:so as well. This man of lawlessness is being held back, but it says and now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. Oh, is it the rebellion that has to occur?
Speaker 2:No, well, that's part of it, right?
Speaker 1:I mean, that's what's been prophesied to happen I mean, I'm just saying he's, he says, and now you know what is holding him back, like like I just told you now what's holding him back, but it doesn't look like he really did tell us, near as I can tell. Except for the rebellion. The rebellion has to occur before he comes. And then he says and now you know what is holding him back. So I think that's what he's saying, but I don't really know.
Speaker 2:So, as I was reading this, I had another thought on verse four. Actually, he will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God. Okay, so he's going to oppose everything that is called God or is worshiped, and so he proclaims himself to be God, so he opposes himself.
Speaker 1:Everything that is called God and is worshiped.
Speaker 2:So that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. So, it's not really a valid point, no, no.
Speaker 1:This is interesting, because if he exalts himself over everything that is called God or worship, that means he's not just it's, it's not just a christian thing, then right, because anything no, it would be any any religion.
Speaker 1:He's saying opposing himself, though in this case, no, it means everything else. But so then he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Hmm, you know, I was just thinking of the Judeo-Christian God in all of this. But yeah, this is bigger than that. I mean, he can't be bigger than God. But I'm saying from a world standpoint.
Speaker 2:From a world religion standpoint, I think it would be. He's denying all other religions, or all religions, not just all other religions, but all of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:But going back to where you were on six, I had a note on seven, for the secret power of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. It's like he's jumping around between lawlessness, being a person and being an it. There's a man of lawlessness and there's a power of lawlessness.
Speaker 1:So I would think the man of power has the power of lawlessness, maybe.
Speaker 2:And do you think that lawlessness is it? Is it just against God's law, or would it be like chaos, all laws, like no more speed limits or you can go ahead and steal whatever you want?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. I think it is. Uh, you know what? I think it goes down to verse 11 and 12. Um, in that there's, it's just idiot. I mean, it's just like a huge delusion about truth. Um, so what am I trying to say here? I don't, I don't think this has to do with everybody speeding, and I don't think this has to do with everybody's robbing each other. Um, I think lawlessness has to do with just the. I think it really has more to do with the denial of god, but I don't know, that's, that's a strange word, lawlessness right and you're right.
Speaker 1:I mean, lawlessness sounds like you're like chaos in the world and people aren't have no, no respect for authority and they just do whatever they want, which maybe, maybe One of the definitions of the word they've used is wickedness. That's how I kind of read it. Lawlessness is kind of a wickedness, just evil, not necessarily killing each other, but you're just evil. Now, verse 11 and 12, I did have a note on that one, do you?
Speaker 2:have something before that you want to talk about. Let me see if I can figure out what it was.
Speaker 1:My notes aren't great Boy, that's a first.
Speaker 2:The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. So I assume this will be supernatural signs and wonders. And just what sort of supernatural power does Satan have?
Speaker 1:So, you know, I don't know if it's supernatural or if it is super and natural, or't know just some fantastic discoveries. And I don't know, I don't really know, steve. It could be supernatural, as in miraculous. And you ask what powers does Satan have? I don't know, but I don't think he is without power. He is not God. But you know, let's not forget this, satan was powerful enough to think that he might be able to challenge God.
Speaker 2:Right, or was he just delusional?
Speaker 1:I mean both, but I think God must have given him some amount of power for him to think that he had power.
Speaker 2:Don't you think? Well, he's got to have, yeah, he's got to have, some amount of power and the angels in the old testament that come to fight you know, in place of you know, uh, who was it? A ellisha?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, they had great power.
Speaker 2:They had great power.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, it doesn't really say what it was. But then there's the power to part the Red Sea and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:I mean, that could have been directly by God or by an angel.
Speaker 2:We don't really know, that's true. Anyway. Okay, I would assume he certainly has more power than you or I have on our own.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think so, and I think he could show signs that would astonish us and we would say no, that's got to be AI, that's got to be AI, which is what I say every time my wife shows me a new video that she says oh, look at this.
Speaker 2:This is so cute. It's like you can't trust anything anymore. I hate it.
Speaker 1:It's like the bouncing you know the bouncing animals on the trampoline.
Speaker 1:She saw me she showed she showed this to me the first day and I and that it came out and I go, okay, you know, that's not real right, that's ai. And she goes you can't, you don't know that. And then a big story came out about all these jumping animals on trampolines. All right, all right. Verse 11 and 12.
Speaker 1:I've been saying this for a while now. I might have told you this, but I've told my family this for sure that this whole transgender thing, this that you can be whatever you want to be, that is so and that we celebrate this. Suddenly, that is so wild and so unnatural that it has to be from, allowed by God or from God. You know, it's either from Satan, allowed by God, or it is from God. And verse 11 and 12, for this reason, god sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. So you know, I've been preaching that to my family, that this kind of stuff it's not absurd, because God is giving a delusion to the people. And you know, I knew it, said it in the Bible somewhere, but I did not know where and I didn't look it up. But here it is.
Speaker 2:And this is it.
Speaker 1:It's definitely at least one of the places that talks about this.
Speaker 2:What I thought you were going to say was that the powerful delusion is AI.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to go there. I don't want to go to AI. I have my own suspicions about AI, but hey, I'm not going to share those necessarily here. I don't want to deceive anyone with my maybes, all right.
Speaker 2:That's all I had for the first section there.
Speaker 1:So let's go on to 2 Thessalonians 2, verse 13 through 17. And I guess I'm reading that, steve, is that right? That's right, all right, but we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God, our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word. All right, I have no notes on this section, steve.
Speaker 2:Oh well, I feel great then, because I have one.
Speaker 1:All right good.
Speaker 2:Verse 15. So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teaching we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. Maybe it was an ESV. Let me look at the ESV real quick.
Speaker 1:You doing great because I, I'd, I'd swear. It said something else oh, I actually do have this, I do have okay, we might have the same note because mine's on 15 also uh, okay, it is an esv.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, it's different. It it is. All right let me read it in ESV, All right? So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions you are taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
Speaker 1:Now my question is I bet yours is the same question, look at mine?
Speaker 2:Is this where I can't see it? Is this where some sects of the church, like Catholic church and some of the Anglican ones, get that tradition is as valid as scripture?
Speaker 1:Okay, it's not the same question, but it's related to the same word Maybe uh, maybe um uh. By the way, did I read the right translation? I think I did you read niv okay, um, hmm, is that hold it? You made a statement about catholics just then, and is that true? You? What did you say again?
Speaker 2:they hold tradition at least as valid as scripture so tradition is sacred yes, I, I I've heard that. I can't say that I know definitively that the whole catholic church believes that, but I've heard that so you don't know if that's official catholic doctrine, but I don't okay, but I think it is all right.
Speaker 1:Well, um, you know, I will not. I cannot say that. It is as important as you know the gospel of Christ, that we are forgiven by grace, by the blood of Jesus. However, I will say Jesus, at the Last Supper, you know, he said he broke the bread and drank the wine. This is my body, this is my blood. Do this in remembrance of me. So I think Jesus values tradition. Jesus values tradition. But I would think that he would say it's not for the sake of tradition. Tradition for the sake of tradition is foolishness.
Speaker 2:The same way.
Speaker 1:Jesus taught about the Sabbath right. He would say who among you if your neighbor's cow fell into a ditch or something? There's some something about a well and lassie who among you would not help get the cow out of the whatever, or oxen, or whatever it is. But at any rate, that's tradition for the sake of tradition and instead of for its purpose. So in other words, so when you take communion, it's not that you just eat some bread and drink some wine. You do that in remembrance of what Jesus did for us.
Speaker 2:Which when he did it it was also going, it was Passover and they were doing it in remembrance of Passover.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Which he was the Passover lamb.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:Of the new covenant.
Speaker 1:Yep, so yes, yeah, that's a good point, Steve.
Speaker 2:So yes, that was already a tradition, as are the feasts of booths or what is it. There's something of booths and there's all sorts of Jewish holidays, but I think they're all called out in the Bible, so you can sort of make a case for those.
Speaker 1:I do think that one problem with the modern non-denominational church is that in many cases there is a complete throwing out of tradition. You know what I'm saying, steve? I don't think all non-denominational churches completely ignore tradition. You know what I'm saying, steve? I don't think all non-denominational churches completely ignore tradition. I don't think we in our church have completely ignored tradition. But I have been in churches. It's almost like they're throwing it away for the sake of throwing it away, because it is tradition.
Speaker 2:So we're not going to do that um I could see where they would throw out christmas.
Speaker 1:Uh, at least the modern the modern, the modern version of Christmas. Because the holiday, if you believe Wikipedia or whatever it aligned with some pagan holiday and they took it over and made it about Jesus instead, which, okay, I could see us having a separate changing that, because I think there is some record of when the census was done in Rome, and it was likely in the spring well, that would conflict with Easter and also we have Easter, which is another pagan holiday well, the rabbit and the eggs are, but the celebration of his resurrection is.
Speaker 2:I know, actually it's tied to the jewish calendar.
Speaker 1:It's way more authentic that's true, but we yes, you're right about that. Okay, at any rate. Um, yeah, I do. I do think traditions have some value, um, but only tradition, but not tradition for tradition's sake. So my question was going to be because let me read that again. He says this is the third time we've read it. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by spoken word or by our letter. What traditions are those?
Speaker 2:It could be the Last Supper, the sacraments.
Speaker 1:That could be one of them. I think, well, no, I don't know. I mean, I just don't know Traditions.
Speaker 2:Well, especially if it's by our spoken word we have.
Speaker 1:as far as we know, we don't have record of that. Yes we don't, unless it's written also in some letter. We do have the letters. We have one letter that we've already. You know we just finished. What did he preach to the church? What was the main thing he preached to the church? Do you remember?
Speaker 2:That was so a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1:Yes, it was love Tradition of love. Love each other. Is that a tradition, or is that? I mean, what is he calling a tradition here? That seems like not a tradition. That seems like something to do that is beyond tradition that feels more like a commandment yeah, so but wasn't there?
Speaker 2:um, there was stuff in there about sexual immorality and in the previous chapter here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the tradition of sexual immorality. Yeah.
Speaker 2:To not partake.
Speaker 1:To not yeah the tradition of not being sexually immoral. So don't yawn, Steve.
Speaker 2:Sorry, we must be getting to the end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we got to be getting close because I'm getting tired. But do you remember in Acts, when Paul went and talked to the disciples, the apostles, do you remember what?
Speaker 2:they came out. Like what should we tell?
Speaker 1:What should we tell the Gentiles? Do you remember?
Speaker 2:That they had a lot to do with circumcision and they don't have to be circumcised and you can eat all sorts of meat.
Speaker 1:Oh no, no, that was, that was one of. There were two things, two things they said avoid oh, sacrifice to idols yes, they said to avoid two things. They said avoid sexual immorality and avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols. Those are the two commands that they gave to the Gentile churches. He's like Paul just tell them this, as long as they, you know they can't be sexually immoral because I think that was a big deal in the Gentile communities and you know they can't eat meat sacrificed to idols.
Speaker 2:Now. So if I go to an Indian restaurant and they have that little thing set up at the door that has like food put out for their idols and I eat, at that restaurant.
Speaker 1:Am I eating food that has been sacrificed to an idol? I have no idea, steve, I think. I think, actually, the food sacrificed to an idol would have been put on an altar and the blood poured over the thing and all that stuff, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:Or here this is deep. Any restaurant is sacrificing food to the almighty dollar that they're going to collect from you when they serve it.
Speaker 1:That's really deep. It's really deep. There's nothing wrong with making money. Um, that's uh you're, you're called to be a shrewd businessman. So, uh, you know you, you work for a living. I mean, even paul worked as a tent maker. He made money. Um, I'm sure when he did that, um, you got to make a living.
Speaker 2:Yep and be a productive member of society.
Speaker 1:Yes, all right, I think that's all I got, steve. Do you have anything else? Nope, I'm good to go, all right. Well, um, we close out with chapter three next week.
Speaker 2:Yes, we do so with chapter three next week.
Speaker 1:Yes, we do so. Read chapter three. It'll be our last chapter, last episode of this season. No-transcript.
