The Regular Guys Bible Study
The Regular Guys Bible Study podcast -- RGBS -- is a podcast for regular guys by regular guys (not theologians) studying the Bible together. It's brought to you by a couple of goofy guys who just want to study the Bible together and show you that anyone can read and study the Bible. In fact, you SHOULD read and study the Bible yourself. We're here to show you how we do it, and, hopefully, we can have some fun along the way.
The Regular Guys Bible Study
Daniel 7
We read Daniel 7, wrestle with the four beasts and the courtroom of the Ancient of Days, and find hope in the Son of Man’s everlasting kingdom. We compare historical interpretations, push back on flimsy claims, and share how to persevere through hard passages.
• Daniel’s non-chronological timeline and context
• The four beasts as historical empires
• The Ancient of Days and divine judgment imagery
• The Son of Man’s authority and everlasting dominion
• Competing scholarly dates and their implications
• The little horn debates and discernment
• Encouragement to keep reading hard texts
• Takeaways for faith, history, and hope
Read Daniel chapter eight. See ya.
You are listening to the Regular Guys Bible Study Podcast, the Bible study for regular guys by regular guys. We are your host, Ken and Steve, and we are just regular guys studying the Bible together. Not theologians. Alright, Steve. For the third minute, we're gonna try to start this podcast.
SPEAKER_02:And I shouldn't have said anything about lag because that whole intro sounded really weird.
SPEAKER_01:Alright, well, you know what? That's okay. Um well, guys, you know, I have been stating this whole time how you should be reading your Bible. Everybody can read their Bible, and I'm gonna stick by that. However, I am gonna say this. This is one of those chapters, Daniel chapter seven, that when I read it, I probably just go on.
SPEAKER_02:I it's it's a hard one to study. I will say this was really challenging. Yeah, um, felt like all I was doing is going and looking at other commentaries and trying to get a clue of what it's saying.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So, and you know, I think that that might be a good lesson for us um as we read our Bible, you know, because again, I push, read your Bible, read your Bible. And sometimes you're gonna read something and you don't understand it. Um and you can look at a commentary and you still might not understand it, or you might read the commentary like sometimes I do and go, I don't think so. You know, right? That's um, and so and and that's okay. It's okay. Don't be discouraged by that because um I would say that God doesn't have understanding that have the understanding of that for you at that moment. You know, keep going.
SPEAKER_02:I'll I'll bring up I'll bring up one of those commentaries later as we we get to that point. Um, that I'm like, I don't know about that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, I I know. And what's interesting about the commentaries on Daniel chapter seven, by the way, we are Daniel chapter seven. If you haven't read it, I know we're not what we've said so far doesn't really make you want to go, I gotta go read this right now. But please stop it and stop this and go read Daniel chapter seven. Um, you need to read it at least once, um, and it'll help you understand a little bit. Um, or you might, if especially if you're a uh an ancient history buff, there are some things that you might really dig about this. Um, that's not me. But um, Steve is our ancient history buff of this pair. Um well, that's not saying much you better be, because it's certainly not me. Oh man, oh man. All right.
SPEAKER_02:How do you want to break this up? Because there is a lot to read here. Um I guess it's not terrible. It just looks like a lot. Do we want to go through the whole thing or do we want to split between the the vision and the vision interpreted?
SPEAKER_01:Um is there anything to talk about after before it's interpreted? Uh maybe. Not a lot. I would say we just read the whole thing and then we can go back to sections if we want to reread something.
SPEAKER_02:Um, you read the first section and I'll read the interpreted section.
SPEAKER_01:Hold on. What does that mean? Does that mean that I'm reading a whole bunch? I think it's about even, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:It's actually, yeah, it's about in the middle.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. All right. Well, let me get started. All right, this is Daniel chapter seven. And um, before I read this, um I don't know if you recall, but in Daniel chapter five, um Daniel, or um, there's the the writing on the wall during Belshazzar, Belshazzar's um reign, and Belshazzar is Nebuchadnezzar's son. And then Belshazzar dies. And then we go easy for you to say. Yeah, apparently. And then we go to the uh last uh chapter six was Daniel and the lion's den, right? Wasn't that last time? With King Darius, yeah. That was King Darius, uh, who was a different king, and now we're back after Belshazzar. After Belshazzar, and now we're back to a story during King Belshazzar's reign. So, one thing about Daniel is it is not chronologically ordered at all. It's just things that happened. Um, and this goes back to before the writing on the wall where Belshazzar um died that evening. So let me know.
SPEAKER_02:I wonder why they do that. But anyway, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. There's a reason, though. I'm not privy to it. All right. Daniel chapter seven. In the first year of Belshazzar, king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter. Daniel declared, I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea, and four great beasts came out of the sea, different from one another. The first was like a lion and had eagle's wings. Then as I looked, its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it. And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth, and it was told, Arise, devour much flesh. And after this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back, and the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth, it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and behold, there came upon there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in his horn, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. As I looked, thrones were placed, and the ancient of days took his seat. His clothing was white as snow, and his hair, and the hair on his head was like pure wool, his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire, a stream of fire issued and came out from before him. A thousand thousand served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. I looked then, I looked then because of the sec of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking, and as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed, and given over to the to the burned to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. I saw in the night visions, and behold, with clouds with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the ancient of days, and was presented before him, and to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Okay, I will continue that.
SPEAKER_01:That was that was the vision now the interpretation, starting with Daniel chapter fifteen. I mean seven, verse fifteen.
SPEAKER_02:As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me. I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of things. These four great beasts are four kings who shall rise out of the earth, but the saints of the most high shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever. Then I desired to know the truth about the fourth beast which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broken pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. And about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions. As I looked, this horn made war with saints with the saints and prevailed over them until the ancient of days came and judgment was given for the saints of the most high, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth and trample it down and break it to pieces. As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them. He shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings. He shall speak words against the most high, and shall wear out the saints of the most high, and shall think to change the times and the law, and they shall be given into his hand for a time times and half a time. But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion of the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High. His kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart.
SPEAKER_01:All right.
SPEAKER_02:So um you know I sure said some stuff, huh?
SPEAKER_01:You did say stuff. And um all right, first of all, you know, uh sometimes we end with this, but I want to start with this.
SPEAKER_00:Um what does this say about God? Um it says he wins in the end.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, that's okay, that's one thing, yes. Um it also says uh that he uh at least it does not say he controls the future, but it says that he knows the future.
SPEAKER_02:He can at least yeah, he sees it and knows it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I I I think he is in control of who uh rules the nations.
SPEAKER_01:I yeah, I'm not saying he's not, I'm just saying that this says that he knows what's going to happen. Um and I think it is because he controls what's going to happen, um, which is why he knows it. Um but you know, while you were reading that, I had an epiphany, Steve. I think, and I think this is from God. Um because but you know, before before this we pray that God would help us and give us words. And so I was looking through AI um the other day, looking to try to understand this better. Um one of the things I read made me angry.
SPEAKER_00:Really?
SPEAKER_01:And and I just suddenly realized that it points to the authenticity of this being a real future um a real prophecy of what something of what actually happened. Do you know?
SPEAKER_00:You're gonna have to explain.
SPEAKER_01:I am, I am mainstream scholarly interpretation of this scripture. Um when okay, do you know when this scripture was written, Steve? Uh Daniel.
SPEAKER_02:Uh well, it was during the Babylonian exile. Which is about 400 years before Christ.
SPEAKER_01:600, I think 600 maybe 400, 600 to 400 to 600 years before Christ. Okay. That is that has been the thought for a long time. Well, guess what, mainstream scholarly people believe. They believe, oh, we're wrong about when this was written. And it was actually written in 165 after the events that he talked about were going to happen.
SPEAKER_00:What? So man, that that is really cool.
SPEAKER_02:It's in other words, these historical events now that these that this prophecy points to are so obvious to mainstream scholars that they decided are refusing, they're refusing to acknowledge that it was a prophecy.
SPEAKER_01:Instead of saying, No, it really wasn't that that king that happened or this thing that happened, instead of saying that, they're saying, Well, that's too obvious. It was actually written after those things happened.
SPEAKER_00:So that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02:If if you throw away the part where they say it was written after.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. I mean, they're completely wrong. But it's it's cool that they are they basically, by saying that, are validating the authenticity of this prophecy.
SPEAKER_00:Hmm.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. But you said at first it made you angry.
SPEAKER_01:At first it made me angry because they're just saying, oh, it didn't really happen. Like, you know, it wasn't really written. And it didn't really hit me until you were reading. And I, you know, I wasn't paying attention, obviously, um, because I was deep in prayer. Um, but while you're reading, it just struck me that the that why I shouldn't be angry about the world denying the scripture. Um especially when what they're actually doing is validating that the prophecy really happened.
SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, that's kind of cool. I think it's super cool. Okay. Um that's my epiphany.
SPEAKER_02:So it says that these are kingdoms, right? These four beasts. And a lot of the commentaries say it's parallel to the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Um it feels like all of these kingdoms are prior to the arrival of Christ. Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yes, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:And and that's what happens afterwards, right? That's what we were at. Christ's Christ's kingdom will stand forever.
SPEAKER_01:Say that again. Uh there was a network issue.
SPEAKER_02:Uh Christ's kingdom will stand forever. Yes. That's what happens after.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so here's I did some YouTube searches and I did some other internet searches. Mostly I just stuck to the commentaries in my Bible. But there was one where this guy was I don't know if he was preaching this or where it was, but it looked like he was preaching it. And he was claiming that the the boastful horn that is changing the times and the law is the Pope. So his his reference about the times were it was uh Rome and uh anyway. At some point the the Catholic Church changed the uh Sabbath or the day of worship to Sunday instead of Saturday. Right. That was one of his changing the times. Yeah. Another was changing to the uh the Roman calendar instead of the Jewish calendar.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Um did the Romans, by the way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And he also said that the Catholic Church claims that the word of the Pope is higher than the word of the Bible. And I and I don't know where they got that.
SPEAKER_01:Now you're making me even angrier than I was, Steve.
SPEAKER_02:Right. I anyway, I just found that to be a bit on the outskirts.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But, you know, I could be wrong. Maybe these guys are right.
SPEAKER_01:So, you know, I guess Steve makes a good point if his point is when you're looking around at People at commentaries or what people say about something, you gotta use some common sense there. Um, and use scripture and discernment uh to know what you're reading and to you know doubt what should be doubted. Um and and don't doubt what makes sense and what if it matches what scripture says, but that stuff does not match script scripture. So what I have found, Steve, is these four kings, or these four kingdoms, that is, and or kings. Um, I guess they're kingdoms, right? Yeah, kingdoms. The first one is the Babylonian Empire, which is what what they're currently in. That's what Belshazzar is.
SPEAKER_02:That's the lion with the wings like an eagle, and they get plucked off. Did you know that Jeremiah used the same imagery for Babylon?
SPEAKER_01:No, I didn't.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I came across that in one of the commentaries.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_02:So I actually made a note of that one because I thought, oh, that's that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so that kind of tracks then. Yep. That is Babylon. Um, the second beast is the Median Empire, the Medis, which um in the previous, not the previous chapter, in two two previous chapters, we saw where the Babylonian Empire ended with the writing on the wall, and the and the Medisms, the Median, the Medis took um control, right? All right. So so the first two, the first one was here we are, present day. The second one is this is what's coming after you, Belshazzar.
SPEAKER_00:The third one is the Persian Empire. Persian or Greek?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I have that as the what I read is the third is the Persian. Well, there's okay, there's two different, there's two different um, and you're right. You're right. I was reading um I was reading a less common belief. So there's two beliefs here.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the one that's the bear. It said it was raised up on one side, and what I read said that the raised up side was the stronger of the two between the Medes and the Persians, or Medis and the Persians, however you say that.
SPEAKER_01:Uh yeah, the and it was the Greek? The where did you go? Steve, you disappeared. Oh, there you are.
SPEAKER_02:I keep getting distracted by my dogs. They and they had to come out here with me, and now they're tearing up stuff.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:That's fine. It doesn't bother me, Steve. Um, all right. No, so the third is is is the Grecian formula empire.
SPEAKER_02:Which it's kind of cool that the four heads apparently are the four generals that took over after Alexander Alexander the Great.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah, the four heads, they say, are the four um generals that he that took charge after his death.
SPEAKER_02:They basically split it up amongst themselves.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And the fourth, and this makes a lot of sense, the Roman Empire. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But it doesn't say what kind of animal it is. It just says it's a beast.
SPEAKER_01:It had lots of horns on it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and I some of the imagery I came across made it look like this weird Tyrannosaurus Rex thing. Which kind of fits, you know. Got sharp teeth and had little hands. Horns.
SPEAKER_01:It had trouble. It couldn't put its two front hands together. Um, and what about the little horn?
SPEAKER_00:That's the Pope. The Pope? That's what that video said. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so the the ten the ten horns are supposedly um like the ten regions that came out of the fall of Rome, which I think is mostly just Europe.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So, by the way, what uh what I have listed in my research, but again, there were lots of different things about this little horn, but it was the Antichrist.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And you said the Pope.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's what this guy was preaching.
unknown:All right.
SPEAKER_02:Alrighty. And that's not the first time I've heard this these weird conspiracies that the Antichrist will come out of the Catholic Church.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Yeah. I've heard that as well. But hold on, let me go back though to these four because I told you that one of them, the one, the one that um is these the modern scholars that or mainstream scholars that I told you um say was actually written after these things happened, and they point to the first birth first beast being Babylon, uh Babylonian Empire. Second beast, second, yeah, second beast was the Median Empire, the same. The third beast was actually the Persian Empire or the unified Meadow Persian. The four heads represented divisions or or kings in that in this in this um union of the met of the Meadow-Persian Empire. And then the fourth beast, um the dreadful with iron teeth and ten horns, was actually Alexander the Great. It was the Greek Hellenistic Empire.
SPEAKER_02:So no Rome at all.
SPEAKER_01:And so, yeah, so so the modern the modern thing that says um well the problem is with the the problem with Rome is that Christ came, well, I guess he came before the fall of Rome.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_01:But after the uh Rome became great. So I guess that does work.
SPEAKER_02:Um you sure that those uh modern scholars aren't tossing Rome out of the mix just because it fits better with the date they came up with?
SPEAKER_01:It could be. Um that's the kind of things people do, scholars do, right?
SPEAKER_02:And because they're not well non-believing scholars, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, that's what I mean. Um yeah, they want things to to line up with their dates. Um and the ten horns represent a sequence of cell Seleucid kings, and the little horn um refers to Antiochus IV Epithanes who reigned from 175 to 164. And he was known for his desecration of the Jerusalem temple and oppression of the Jews, which is the abomination of desolation.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. So I knew I'd heard that name before.
SPEAKER_01:So it's possible. I mean, that does kind of that kind of fits also, right? Uh to me, that either one of those is possible. Um, I think though they wrote it like it like this, because it does fit their timeline better. Um, I don't know. The thing is about the Persian Imp Empire and the four heads. I don't know enough about this unified Meadow Persian Empire to know if that makes sense. Was it into was it separated into four four regions? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:And it it you know, I would find that ancient history interesting if I could find something that I trusted to be true. Because it's all conjecture, I mean, for the most part.
SPEAKER_01:Um well, unless you go directly to historical writings, which the old testament is one of. Right. Um, there are other historical writings not from the Jews.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but I'm not gonna do that on my own. It has to be someone that has studied it and turned it into something I can understand.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So, all right. Do you have anything else you would like to say about this, Steve?
SPEAKER_00:Uh The Ancient of Days. We didn't really talk about it. The Ancient of Days, yes.
SPEAKER_02:It is an expression applied to Jehovah three times in the vision of Daniel Yeah, so the Ancient of Days is God. And it gives the sense of something that's eternal. Um who is it that's in contrast with the earthly kings whose days are numbered, basically.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that is true.
SPEAKER_01:Um now uh uh uh there where does it talk about the son of man?
SPEAKER_00:That is verse thirteen.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the ancient of days and was presented before him.
SPEAKER_00:So is this talking about Jesus and God? I think so.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, 'cause well, a lot of what we're taught and what we read, it it says that Jesus took a right hand seat next to God in heaven when he but they are the same.
SPEAKER_01:We also teach that they are the same.
SPEAKER_02:We also teach that they're the same, yes. There's a a piece that whole Trinity thing is a bit beyond human understanding.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So my commentary on this says the coming of the Son of Man, the one like a son of man, combines in one person both human and divine traits. Elsewhere, this phrase son of man often dis distinguishes mere human beings from God. However, this son of man seems also greater than any mere human, for to come on the clouds is a clear symbol of divine authority. The son of man is given dominion and glory and a kingdom. So, I mean it goes on, but I think that's a point. Um so I think this is a representation of Jesus as the Son of Man.
SPEAKER_02:I agree. I I don't even have a little bit of doubt in that.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. I yeah, same. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:But that's because I'm not one of those uh scholars that tries to change dates and things. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um yeah, I I I could find I mean if I really, really wanted to, I could deny all of this with no proof. But I could. Um and so part of the life of a believer is faith. Um and I I don't think we have to have blind faith. Do you know what I mean? Blind faith meaning I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and saying la la la, I don't want to hear truth, I don't want to hear truth. I think this is truth. And um and you can choose to believe this truth, or you can choose to believe somebody who is making who has nothing to back up what they claim is is proof, is truth.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so I will choose the scripture.
SPEAKER_01:You know, um all right, what else do you got, Steve? I got I have nothing. All right, I have one more thing to say. And this has really nothing to do with what he said, but at the very end, he's it says, Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart. So he wrote this down um and he kept it to himself, and he did not tell Belshazzar. And it was obvious, remember, Daniel had a relationship with Nebuchadnezzar. Right. And it was obvious in Daniel chapter five that he did not have a relationship with Belshazzar.
SPEAKER_02:Well, if he had one, it was very peripheral, right?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it was well the queen came up and said, Hey, there's this guy. And oh yeah, I remember. I remember now that you say it.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah, that guy.
SPEAKER_01:Um and so um, and then uh Daniel was known by King Darius, which was follow which was the next king.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but he did not have the same standing in Belshazzar's court as he had in other people's court. That's my opinion of when I read the scripture, that's how it sounds to me. Uh yeah. And so I think so.
SPEAKER_02:And you're saying he didn't share it with Belshazzar. That's right. Well, first of all, he wouldn't couldn't trust how he might react.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um that was unlikely to change anything anyway.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so um, yeah, it seems, you know, it I and spec, you know, I can speculate if Darius had been king or if Nebuchadnezzar had been king, would Daniel have shared this? I don't know. Maybe. Um, but with Belshazzar, he's not gonna share it with Belshazzar. All right. That's all I got, Steve. Does this say anything to us?
SPEAKER_00:What does it say to us?
SPEAKER_02:It's telling us to persevere even through the hard parts of the Bible.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. That's actually that's that's uh that's doable for me.
SPEAKER_02:Um this was a hard one to read over and over.
SPEAKER_01:It really was. Um, and it was a harder one knowing. I mean, oh gosh, reading it over and over was one thing. Reading it over and over, knowing that I was gonna have to talk about it and not know what in the heck I'm gonna say about this. But I'll say I think God really um revealed stuff to us during this during this um podcast. So um praise God. Thank you, Father, for that. Um, all right. Well, that's all I got. Anything else?
SPEAKER_02:We got more Daniel visions coming up in chapter eight.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, we do. Daniel chapter eight. Daniel chapter eight is next, guys. Read it. See ya. The regular guys Bible study is a chasm LLC production, all rights reserved.
