Daniel 8

We read Daniel 8, trace the ram and goat through history, and wrestle with Gabriel’s explanation that still leaves Daniel stunned. We weigh Antiochus, Nero, and future fulfillment, and land on a steady note: God sets the limits on evil and restores his people.

• reading Daniel 8 aloud with context
• Media-Persia as the ram, Greece as the goat
• Alexander’s broken horn and four successors
• the “little horn,” Antiochus, and desecrated temple
• stars cast down and the prince of the host
• 2300 evenings and mornings: days or sacrifices
• layered fulfillment and typology across history
• God’s sovereignty over empires and outcomes
• practical response: watch, pray, do not fear

Read your Bible. Don’t rely on other people to read it for you. Read it.

Transcript

Welcome And Daniel 8 Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:12

You are listening to the Regular Guys Bible Study Podcast, the Bible study for regular guys by regular guys. We are your hosts, Ken and Steve, and we are just regular guys studying the Bible together. Not theologians. Regular guys, whatever that means. We are regular guys. You know why I'm such a regular guy, Steve? Coffee in the morning. No, metamusle in the morning and coffee. That'll do it. Alright, guys. We are on Daniel chapter 8, which is gonna sound a whole lot like Daniel chapter 7, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Yeah, it is very much the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Um so uh God has it there for a reason, though.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Um, and we're gonna read it and uh, you know, see what I have a theory why it's the same. Okay. Um chapter seven was still in uh Hebrew, and eight is in Aramaic, or whatever the other language was. I don't know, Aramaic and whatever else. Really? This one switched back, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Well, I have a theory why they're the same back to back as well. If you notice in chapter seven, it says, in the first year of Belshazzar. Right? So he had this vision in the first year of Belshazzar. We haven't read it yet, but in chapter eight, it says, in the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar. So basically it's saying this, you know, a couple of years have passed, and God has given this vision. Well, it's not the same vision, but it's talking about the same stuff. Some of it.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

It goes into more detail on some of the stuff.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah, it does. All right, so guys, we're in Daniel chapter 8. If you haven't read it, pause this and go read it. Read your Bible. Read your Bible. Don't rely on other people to read it for you. Read it. Um and then come back and listen, of course.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

You want the first section or the second section?

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Um, I want you to do. Oh gosh. Let me see. Almost the same. Almost the same. 14. Uh you do the first section. That's our standard anyway.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

We're gonna do the whole thing again?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah, let's do the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

All right, let's do this. Chapter eight. In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar, a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first. And I saw in the vision, and when I saw, I was in Susa, the citadel, which is in the province of Elam, and I saw in the vision, and I was at the Ulag Canal. I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the canal. It had two horns, and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward, no beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great. As I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west across the face of the whole earth without touching the ground. And the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. He came to the ram with the two horns, which I had seen standing on the bank of the canal, and he ran at him in his powerful wrath. I saw him come close to the ram, and he was enraged against him, and struck the ram and broke his two horns, and the ram had no power to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled on him. And there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power. Then the goat became exceedingly great, but when he was strong the great horn was broken, and instead of it there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven. Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land. It grew great even to the host of heaven, and some of the hosts and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them. It became great, even as great as the Prince of the Host, and the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown, and a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of trans of transgression lips drying out. Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled under foot? And he said to me, For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

When I Daniel had seen the vision, I sought to understand it, and behold, there stood before me one having the appearance of a man, and I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Uli, and it called, Gabriel, make this man understand the vision. So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was frightened and fell on my face, but he said to me, Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end. And when he came to and when and when he had spoken to me I fell into a deep sleep, and my face with my face to the ground, but he touched me and made me stand up. He said, Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end. As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia. And the goat is the king of Greece, and the great horn between his eyes is the first king. As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power. And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. His power shall be great, but not by his own power, and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succe shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many, and he shall even rise up against the prince of princes, and he shall be broken, but by no human hand. The vision of the evenings and the mornings that you that has been told is true, but still up the vision, for it refers to many days from now. And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king's business, but I was appalled by the vision and did not understand it.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Well, I guess we're not alone then.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

All right. All right, well, thanks for listening. That's that's is that all we've got?

SPEAKER_00 8:15

If Daniel didn't understand it, how can we hope to?

Gabriel’s Explanation And Confusion

SPEAKER_01 8:18

So what's interesting about this is you know, the very first part that I started uh reading, um, you know, uh it's uh a man, someone with the appearance of a man says, Gabriel, make this man understand the vision. And then Gabriel tells him stuff, but Daniel did not understand the vision.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Oh, you're saying it's odd that he Gabriel was told to make him understand, and Daniel failed to understand.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Yeah, so Gabriel's task was to make Daniel understand uh according to what the man had asked.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

But at the end of this, Daniel's is very upset um uh because he cannot understand.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

So I would say in this case, it seems like Gabriel failed at his task.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Well, I'll say I also don't truly understand this, but I'm not very upset about it.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Okay, but yeah, God didn't give you this vision, though. He just gave you this word.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

This it's not as disturbing to me. Well, he's in the middle of it. He's watching kings die left and right.

Antiochus, Nero, Or Something Future

SPEAKER_01 9:42

And remember last in in chapter seven, I was saying that um many people think that the um that this was actually actually written much later, the modern modern view. It's actually from chapter eight why they hold that view. Um because chapter eight is very clear, according to what I'm re what I read and things, that this is talking about Alexander the Great, um, and then the four rulers came out of that, and then um the one who understands riddles Antiochus. Well, there's two takes on it. Antiochus is one take, another take is actually Nero.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Um who and Well, so the Jewish take is Antiochus.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

And the Christian take is actually threefold. They think it was Antiochus, Nero, and Something Yet to Come.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Ah, I didn't read that part. Something yet to come. Oh, as in the end of days.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

I see. You know, the way I read that end of days, to me, it's not the end of time. I read it as the end of the I'm talking it's it's a end of the world as we know. No, not that. It's the end of the Medis and Persian Empire. Because that's where Daniel is serving in this empire. So I'm wondering if the end of days, and I'm not saying this is how I see it, which is what I said actually, but I'm wondering if when he says this is the end of days, it's talking about the end of the Medis Persian Empire.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

Could be. Which will happen in you know, 2300 days.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

So we've kind of jumped all over the place here. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Um because I don't know what to say. Oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Well, I was gonna say, all the way back in uh chap in verse one. Yes, he says, I saw, I saw, I saw like three or four or five times in here. Do you think there's any significance to that repetition?

SPEAKER_03 12:41

You know what? I am going to say after I yawn, I'm gonna say yes, but I don't know what it is. No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

I you know I think I think what it's saying is that he was he suddenly saw this, and then you know, boom, he was now in another location, boom, he's now in another location. That's how I see it. But I don't really know. I saw in the vision, and when I saw, I was in Susa, the citadel. And I saw in the vision, and I was at the Ulai Canal. Are they in the same place? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Is that I I don't know. I don't know. I just thought it was weird that Saw showed up what five times in that first paragraph.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

It's a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Um I don't really have a point there.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

I just you know, I think it's just saying this it's just what he saw. I don't really know. Uh you know. Uh uh I don't know, Steve. All right.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

So the next thing I have is an Intel verse 10.

unknown 14:20

All right.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

How about you?

SPEAKER_03 14:21

Well, before I go to that. Well, no.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Uh you know, I I said my piece, Steve. I said all of my notes already.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Oh, really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

As we skipped around.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

You had you had two weeks, and that's all you came up with?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

That's all I came up with.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

It's pretty uh what am I supposed to say about this? I don't know what to say about it, Steve.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

I don't know. You made me read it for two weeks, so I kept looking.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Okay. You know what? The next time I see you, I'm gonna give you um a little star sticker or something.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Oh, good. I was afraid you were gonna say a kiss or a hug or something.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Oh, I would never do that, Steve.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Verse 10. Yeah. He's talking about stars uh being thrown down. Yeah. Uh, where'd it go? Where'd it go? And some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them. So I looked up what stars might mean, and our AI overlords told me that in Daniel's time, it could mean faithful Israelites, it could mean priests, it could mean teachers of the law, or their heavenly counterparts, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Okay. Um I'm glad you looked that up.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I I have wondered what that means. Um but I didn't know. And by the way, I I do have one more thing I didn't write down.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

But um who do you say the prince of the host is?

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Uh even as great. Uh let's see. Um is it through the crown trampled on them? It became great, even as great as the prince of the host. I I mean, I read that as the devil, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

No.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

What is it?

SPEAKER_00 16:39

That is supposedly God, and the argument for that is that the regular burnt offering was taken from him, which it was. They shut down the temple, um, and the sanctuary was overthrown.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Uh that is actually what my uh because I I did read a study Bible notes, the ESV study Bible notes, and that is your that is what they say, probably refers to God.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Um That's what uh supposedly Jewish believers believe, and some Christian believers try to make that be Christ instead, which if you believe in the Trinity, I don't know that there's a big difference there, but um that's a thing.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Alright. I guess. Um what is okay, but if that's God, what does that mean? It was great even to uh where is this?

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Oh, I'm too far down.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

No, I'm not. There it there it is. And it became great, even as great as the prince of the host, and the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown. Are you saying that this this Antiochus Antiochus became as great as God?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

I am saying I can't say that that's what that's what some of the interpretations are. And maybe in the mindset of ancient peoples, if the temple is the house of God, and this guy comes in and desecrates the temple and stops all the sacrifices, that means he's greater than as or great as that God, because he took over his house. I mean, I I don't I'm with you. I don't see that it's possible for any human being to become as great as God.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Yeah, that's why I said the devil.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

And and um isn't the devil uh like the the prince of this world I think so that's why and he's the host, Prince of the Host. So that's why I chose the devil, and the devil could, you know, I would say this evil person could be as great as the devil from a from a destruction and evil standpoint.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

That's yeah, but later it says for how long is this vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the gift of the Over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot. So to me that seems like a pretty clear indication of the temple.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

No, I agree. That is the temple. That's been destroyed, but I'm saying that's done by the devil. I mean, no.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

I'm saying oh no. Let me see.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

You're saying Antiochus is the devil?

Master Of Intrigue And Politics

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Even as great as and the bo yeah, I'm saying that great, even as great as a host.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

I don't know. It grew great even to the host of heaven.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Alright, let me start in ten. It grew great even to the host of heaven, and some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them. It became great even all right. Let me I'm gonna go to another translation real quick. Alright. Its power reached to the heavens, where it attacked the heavenly army, throwing some of the heavenly beings and some of the stars to the ground and trampling them. It even challenged the commander of heaven's army by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying his temple.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

That's what the New Living says. Sounds like it agrees with me.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Well, it'd be the commander of heaven's army, not God.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Who's the commander of the U.S. army?

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Some general at the moment. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

It's not No, the ultimate executive.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

There's no way saying that this that this Antiochus is as powerful as God.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Maybe it's just hyperbole.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Okay, maybe so. But it could also be saying like as powerful as Michael, the arch archangel. Arch is it archangelangel or archangel? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I'm horrible at English. Like my first language, and I should be my second.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yeah, I got it.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Um so he says truth is thrown to the ground. So before I read some of these other takes on this, I was thinking, well, could this be a reference to Pontius Pilate saying what is truth? When he has Jesus on trial.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Ooh, wow. Man, you're smarter than me. That's pretty cool, maybe. Let me see.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

What is uh But then most scholars think that this is all about Maccabees and Hanukkah and I've never read Maccabees. I feel like I should.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Yeah, I haven't either.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Alright. I don't know what to do with that, Steve. Alright, we can move on.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

I think we should move on.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

I only have one more um comment, and that's why does he understand riddles? What what does that mean to understand riddles? And I do have an answer to this question.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

I think that means he's intelligent, first of all.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Do you have where is that?

SPEAKER_00 23:58

That is in the Well, it first of all usually means you have something else to say.

The 2300 Evenings And Mornings Debate

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah, I know, because I have I have read this and I'm trying I didn't uh let's see. Uh the dun dun.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Where is that? I said it. My note says it's in 23. Oh, yeah. A king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

So um, you know, I will say this. I quit reading ESV for a long time in reading this thing because I felt I feel like the ESV is just it's a riddle in itself to read. Um so let me see.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Uh because it's a word-for-word translation?

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Well, yeah, then I think so. And so 23, here's uh NIV, uh, which is a highly respected um meaning uh sentence translation. In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue will arise. He will become very strong, but not by his own power. So master of intrigue. What is the definition of intrigue? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

I don't know. But the conclusion I came to is that he was a politician and used deceit and manipulation to get what he wanted.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Okay, I would say a master of intrigue would be a great politician.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Well, and I think intrigue is being deceitful and manipulative. AKA a politician.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Let's see here.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

No offense to you uh good politicians out there, all three of you. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, so you won't take offense.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

I'm gonna ask AI what is a master of intrigue? Let's see here. A master of intrigue is someone exceptionally skilled in at scheming, manipulation, deception, and behind the scenes plotting to achieve their goals, often in politics, courts, espionage, or power struggles. So there's a lot more because it's AI and it doesn't know when to shut up. But um but I think that's enough.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

But that's basically all I had for this chapter. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Um I have one more thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

You're gonna say, what does this tell us about God?

SPEAKER_01 26:42

No, I will say that later, but that's not that's just something.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

That would be two more things.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Okay, but that's just that's a standard. It's a standard thing we should ask. Um so remember, I said I believe this is talking about when it says the end of days, that it's talking about the end of the Medis Persian Empire reign. But what goes further past that it does go past that, uh, according to what we believe it refers to.

unknown 27:17

True.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Let us say that this is actually talking about the end of days. Like it says, the end of days.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

Um in that case, this hasn't happened yet, or is it further along in um I mean could it be that these things have not occurred? Sure. So could be.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

I mean, I think the problem with that is the Medis Persian thing, uh, they were, you know, that and it's it's very clear that the guy with the two horns was the Medis Persian Empire.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

He says since uh verse 20 says these are the kings of Medea and Persia.

What This Teaches About God

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yeah, and one of them was greater than the other. I think uh I don't remember, but historically one was greater, more was more um more uh uh powerful than the other in that empire. And I don't remember which, but that so it really fits there. Now what if there's time this uh where is this 2300? He said to me it will take 2300 evenings and mornings, then the sanctuary will be uh uh reconsecrated. Um so this is about uh uh let me see how long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled. So time in um in the uh in prophecy is always a little strange. Now this is this is 2300 evenings and mornings, which is what six and a six point three years, I think is what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Something like that. Um one of the things I read said this refers to the evening and morning sacrifices.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

But it's still 2300 of them.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah, it's still 2300 of them, but the the evening and morning is referring to the twice daily sacrifices or something.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

So I always wondered, or not always, but I was wondering this week or the last two weeks, is 2300 2300 divided by two? Because there's the evenings and mornings.

unknown 30:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

That's what I would assume.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

So it's really well it's 2300 evenings and mornings.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Oh, I see what you're saying. It could be 2300 days, which all days have an evening and morning. Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Or it could be It could be uh six divided by 1850 days. Right?

SPEAKER_00 30:29

No, it would be one thousand one hundred and fifty. What were you getting? What kind of math are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 30:41

I was doing thirty three thousand something. Uh three. Oh man. I'm just not that smart. I'm not very good at right now, Steve.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

What you get for having a day off when I didn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

All right. So what does this tell us about God, Steve?

SPEAKER_00 31:06

I I don't know. That he can see outside of time and uh it's the same as chapter seven, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:13

That God is in control of the whole world, the whole geopolitical climates, the whole uh he puts people in charge all over who he wants to be in charge, right?

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Um so what do we do with this?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

We watch for these signs in case they haven't already happened. That's one thing. Although I'm not sure. I'm not sure what we would do with it if they did start to happen and we recognized them as such.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

But yeah, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

You could say that in 24 his power shall be great, really, really great. I'm I'm the greatest president ever, you know? I'm I'm great. That was a horrible imitation.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

That was really bad. Uh okay, yeah, it could be.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Um And Persia's got a lot of turmoil right now. It does. Iran is killing a bunch of their people and doing stupid stuff.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Yep. And the media is going crazy too.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yep. Rupert Rupert Murdoch could be the uh king of media.

Closing Banter And Next Week Tease

SPEAKER_01 32:32

So um, yeah, I mean, I you know, I think what we do about it is while we always need to keep our eyes open and keep our ears open to hear God speaking to us. Um, but you know, the truth is we shouldn't worry about it. I know there's a a lot of believers that just worry about the world that we are in. And you know, God is in control, and just because things aren't great does not mean that God's not in control. Um, you know, I always go back to Paul and all of his suffering that he went through. God was in control, all of that, and he was the first one to say it um and to rejoice in his suffering. Um, and he knows God's in control, and he's going through, and he went through a lot of suffering. Um we can look through, look at suffering around the world and know that God is in control, and don't worry. Be happy, be happy, don't worry. Be happy, be happy. All right, I don't have anything else, Steve. I'm sorry. I'm really hoping chapter nine of Daniel will have something more we can talk about. I can't even hear you whistling, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

If you're whistling, really yeah, you can hear the whistling.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

I think you uh you know what? I didn't I bet you didn't turn off uh voice.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

I'd I did really good at whistling.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

All right, I'm sure you did.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Catch in the line next week.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Oops, well, uh I guess um, you know, that kind of deserves the whole thing. I don't know. That kind of deserves that we all know.