The Regular Guys Bible Study
The Regular Guys Bible Study (or BS) podcast is a podcast for regular guys by regular guys (not theologians) studying the Bible together. It's brought to you by a couple of goofy -- sometime irreverent -- guys who just want to study the Bible together and show you that anyone can read and study the Bible. In fact, you SHOULD read and study the Bible yourself. We're here to show you how we do it, and, hopefully, we can have some fun along the way.
The Regular Guys Bible Study
Matthew 2
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Ken and Steve continue their verse-by-verse walk through Matthew, this week diving into the chapter that gives us the Magi, the star, and Herod's murderous jealousy.
- Who were the wise men, really? Ken and Steve dig into whether the Magi were Jewish, Gentile astrologers, or something in between — and why Matthew highlighting Gentiles as Jesus's first worshippers matters
- The mystery of the star — comparing the biblical account to ancient Chinese astronomical records, and debating whether it was a natural phenomenon, a miracle, or both
- Worship without conditions — why the wise men worshipped Jesus for who he is, not for what he'd done for them, and what that means for our own faith
- How many Herods were there? A quick detour into history to sort out which Herod is which
- The flight to Egypt and the massacre of the innocents — wrestling with the weight of Herod's cruelty and what it means that Jesus retraces Israel's own journey out of Egypt
- The puzzle of "he shall be called a Nazarene" — a prophecy no one can quite pin down in the Old Testament
- Plus: Ken's back injury, Steve's trip to New York, and a first look at the upcoming Regular Guys Bible Study app
you are listening to the regular guys bible study podcast the bible study for regular guys by regular guys we are your host ken and steve and we are just regular guys studying the bible together not theologians how's it going today mr not theologians doing all right how about you um you know what i'm doing much better right now than i was doing yesterday at this time um yesterday so saturday i was doing something that wasn't strenuous at all i was shoveling some gravel but it was really easy work and I took the shovel and I did just a normal little scoop motion and I almost fell over because my back started spasming and then yesterday Paige had to help me walk to the restroom Don't you have a
Steve:rowing machine? That's supposed to be Back strengthening, right?
Ken:I think it's the twisting motion. And what's funny is she's been telling me I should be doing yoga with her. And I have poo-poo on the yoga. And, you know, the very first thing that I read I should do to strengthen my back for these kinds of motions.
Steve:Yoga.
Ken:Eat yogurt. I mean, do yoga. Yeah. You seem a little quiet right now, Steve. Are you close to your mic? What's going on here? I think I am. I think I am. Say boo, boo, boo, boo. Boo, boo, boo, boo, boo, boo. Okay, I guess that's okay. All right. Anyway, guys, we are on Matthew chapter two. If you haven't read Matthew chapter two, please pause this thinking podcast and read Matthew chapter two and then come back to us. And you should know what we're talking about. So go ahead and read it. Okay, I'm going to pause too. Okay. Why are you pausing?
Steve:So that I can go read it.
Ken:Good one, Steve. Oh, that's funny. All right. Anyway, we are... Oh, before we do this, though, I do want to make an announcement of something that's coming, Steve. I showed you an example. I showed you an example right before we started this.
Steve:I already know what it is.
Ken:What is it? What is it?
Steve:It's a thing for, like, loading onto your phone.
Ken:All right. Yes, we're coming out with the regular guy's Bible study app. It will be available for both iOS and Android. And it might actually be available. No, it won't be available by the time this comes out because I'm going to visit my daughter this next weekend. I will not have time to get it out. So anyway, it will be out very soon. Keep your eyes out. Keep looking. It will be there and it will be awesome. It will have all sorts of good info. It will have updated info about who we are. if you care about that. It'll have a chat area where you can say stuff and people can respond and Steve and I can respond if I can make it. Bring out the trolls. We can also block you if you are abusive in any way to anybody. So that will not be allowed. Bring out the rage baiters. You know, those people do exist. If you are one of those, please do not comment but I will block you if I must alright at any rate here we go we are reading Matthew chapter 2 are we reading ESV Steve?
Steve:that's what I'm on
Ken:that's what we read last week yep that's what I'm reading as well do you want to just read the whole thing or do you want to read an ESV section at a time
Steve:I think we should just read a section of nine.
Ken:All right. Not it.
Steve:Now, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose, and have come to worship him. When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. They told him, In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it was written by the prophet. And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah. For from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel. Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star had appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, Go, and search diligently for the child. And when you have found him, bring me word that I too may come and worship him. After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.
Ken:All righty. Thank you, Steve, and I apologize.
Steve:I had a little bit of a scratch in my throat. I don't know what's going on with that.
Ken:Well, maybe that's – you sound a little bit different today. A little horsey? Yeah, I think – Anyway. Anyway, man, I hope you're not getting sick. No, don't say that. I'm going to New York. Okay, I hope you are getting sick. What do you want me to say, Steve? You're going to New York when? New York City get a rope Thursday morning for vacation I assume
Steve:yeah just a weekend thing
Ken:alright at any rate I've got quite a few little things I wrote down about this Steve you?
Steve:I do too and I'd have to say that most of my stuff is for This first section.
Ken:Oh, I got, yeah, I guess the majority is in this first section, but I got stuff all throughout. So what do you have? All right, well, all right. So, you know, the very first thing it says, you know, these wise men saw this, let's see, from the east, came to Jerusalem saying, where is he who has been born king of the Jews? Okay, so my first question is, why are these wise men saying that they saw who's going to be the king of the Jews? Are they Jewish? So what do you think, Steve? Are these guys Jewish?
Steve:Didn't we discuss something about this? Was it last time or was it even a different book?
Ken:I think it was a different book. We talked about it in a different study.
Steve:That maybe these wise men were familiar with Daniel's prophecy.
Ken:That's exactly. All right. So I asked AI what it thought. You want to hear what people, well, what is the take on this, the normal take? Not what AI thinks. but what do most Bible scholars think? Were the Magi Jewish? The more common view is that the Magi were probably Gentile astrologers likely from Persia or Babylon since Magi was a term for a priestly class tied to Zoroastrianism. That said, there's a real theory that they could have had Jewish roots or at least Jewish influence since Babylon had a huge Jewish community going back to the exile, and Daniel himself was actually made chief of the Babylonian Magi, which we just read about in the book of Daniel. So it's plausible they inherited messianic expectations from Jewish scriptures circulating in that region, even if they themselves weren't ethnically Jewish. so
Steve:there you go you know I did similar research and that's what I was thinking of and what I found it also mentioned that it's an interesting contrast that Matthew's showing the first people to worship Jesus were actually Gentiles emphasizing that he came for everyone
Ken:oh that's a big one That's a big one, Steve. I didn't even think about that. Gosh, it really irritates me when you say a good thing.
Steve:That's just because my AI is better than your AI.
Ken:Okay, what else do you got, Steve?
Steve:So, as we read through this whole section, and maybe I should say, I'll save that one for later. how many Herods were there? One Herod was there when he was born but there was wasn't there also a Herod when he died? You know it would be a different Herod because he died in this chapter
Ken:Would that be his son that is spoken of a little later or not? There were four
Steve:different Herods.
Ken:Ah. So you did more AI research.
Steve:I did, but I didn't copy a bunch of it in here, so I can't really tell you who they were.
Ken:But there were four Herods, and so this is just the first? Or?
Steve:It might be the second one.
Ken:Okay. All right. All right. Well, that's an interesting tidbit. I don't know what to do with that, Steve. I don't know how that affects me in any way.
Steve:Oh, that wasn't AI. That was Strong's. I'm clicking on the name Herod.
Ken:That's R-I. That's real intelligence.
Steve:Just not yours. Real intelligence. Wrote it.
Ken:Yeah.
Steve:All right. So do you want me to answer your question? Yeah, yeah.
Ken:Oh, this is long. What do I do with that, Steve? What do I do with the information? I don't know. All right, well, I do have something that we can do something with.
Steve:Yeah, I do think he was the first one, actually.
Ken:Okay. All right, in verse 2, these wise men, They were wanting, what were they doing? They were wanting to go worship him. Okay. Okay. So let me ask you this. Why were they wanting to go worship him?
Steve:Hmm. Well, there was a star in the sky that was different than normal. So either as astronomers or astrologers, something was going on in the sky. of significance, and they somehow tied this to a Jewish king. And I don't know.
Ken:All right, so let's say that where I'm going with this, Steve, is these guys went to worship Jesus because of who he is, not because of what he's done for them.
Steve:Well, who do they think he is?
Ken:The king of the Jews. And I think they knew that he was a son of God from Jewish tradition. If they came to worship him, then that means they think he is somehow related to God in some way, right? Okay. So here's my point, though. I think, and it kind of struck me because I'd like to straight. I know people who struggle with God because God does not do the things they want God to do. And they struggle worshiping God because God doesn't do the things they want God to do. But the thing is, God should be worshiped because he is God, not because he does something good for us or good for that person or not worship because he doesn't do something good for us. You know what I'm saying here?
Steve:Yeah, I think that's one of the most atheist, most common complaints. Yeah. To be so good, why is there still evil?
Ken:Yeah. You know, and I, well, yeah. Yeah, let's move on then. So my point is we should worship God because he is God.
Steve:So I was curious about a similar verse there. I think it was verse two. About this star that they saw. And so I asked AI if there were any non-biblical references to anything around that time period. And Chinese records speak of a guest star for about 70 days in 5 BC. And we don't really know when they came. Because Mary was in a house here. She wasn't in a manger.
Ken:That's true. We know it was sometime later. That's all we really know. And some biblical scholars say up to two years. But I don't think it would be two years or Herod later would have a different declaration. I think it's less than two years. I think it's less than two years. Maybe one year. Okay. All right. I have another question, Steve. I did not ask AI this but I have a question
Steve:should I turn my AI on
Ken:maybe so because I don't know the answer to this it says in verse 3 when Herod the king heard this he was troubled and all Jerusalem with him what does that mean how was all Jerusalem troubled with him I was wondering the same thing like
Steve:I think it's one of those hyperboles. Maybe the Pharisees and scribes were troubled. I don't think they knew. Well, he went and asked them.
Ken:Oh, he did go ask them, didn't he?
Steve:He asked the chief priests and scribes.
Ken:Hmm. Yeah, I guess maybe that's when they were troubled. I was thinking, though, it was more... The, you know, the kind of the coming, the thing of what's to come. That's really, it's more of like a picture of what is coming for the Jews.
Steve:Yeah, I think that could be, well, for the rest of Jerusalem, yes. For Herod himself, he's afraid of being overthrown.
Ken:yeah just like all stupid leaders overcome with power and don't want to lose it
Steve:yep but i think i'm ready to move on to the next go ahead go ahead steve
Ken:oh i mean for you to read oh no no i've got i've got two more things so in verse 10 so they follow the star okay and they and you know it seems like the star kind of goes away because they stop there and they talk to Herod and they say hey we're looking for this this king who was born and so you know and so Herod tells them Bethlehem go and let me find him And then in verse 10, when they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. Or actually in nine, I guess, when it rose. So it's like the star rose again and it had not been visible again since it originally appeared. And now it was showing again. And then it rested over the place where the child was.
Steve:Which, that's hard to envision. Because every star I see, when I get closer to it, it's in the same spot. And I'm no closer to it.
Ken:Yep. So, my, you know, I'm thinking, all right. I think the way this might have happened, if God wanted to use this natural occurrence that the, you know, the Chinese astrologer saw, to start the progress. And then that goes away. It leads the wise men to Herod, and then Herod points them to Bethlehem, and then a different angelic light maybe leads them to the house.
Steve:I have two other theories.
Ken:Okay.
Steve:So I sort of live in a valley and I have a telescope. Swamp gas? It's just a joke. Don't understand. But sometimes I'll want to look at things on the horizon, but I can't see them. You can't see them. The hills and the trees are in the way.
Ken:Yeah.
Steve:So maybe Bethlehem, they came up over a hill and, oh, look, there it is. But I don't really like that excuse.
Ken:Yeah, because then it doesn't really rest on the house. Right.
Steve:The other possibility, and it also doesn't rest on the house, is that the comet, or whatever it was, went behind the sun while they were with Herod, and then it came back into someplace visible when they left.
Ken:Yeah, I think it was more miraculous.
Steve:Yeah, it did.
Ken:All right.
Steve:Chinese were at least three years too late?
Ken:I don't know. You know, our ADBC marking of year zero is as much as four years off, right? No. Isn't that what they say?
Steve:I don't know who they are.
Ken:Experts?
Steve:Maybe that's what they say.
Ken:Experts say it's about four years off. I don't know if that's true. I mean, I know experts say that. I don't know why I would believe them, but I don't know. All right, I have one more thing. No, I don't. Let's see. Oh, I have one more thing. The wise men, this is kind of stupid, but it says, Then, opening their treasure, they offered them gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. Did they offer gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh, or did they offer gifts and gold and frankincense and myrrh?
Steve:Well, every Christmas show I've seen equates the two. The gifts are gold, frankincense.
Ken:Yes, I understand. By the way it's worded, it could mean that there were gifts, there was gold, and there was frankincense, and there was myrrh.
Steve:Did you try other translations?
Ken:I should have, but I didn't. That really makes me angry that I didn't do that.
Steve:NIV says, with gifts of gold, frankincense, myrrh.
Ken:Yeah. Man. I don't even deserve to live. Let's see.
Steve:I don't think it's that severe of an idiot thing.
Ken:They opened their treasure chest and gave him gifts of gold. Yeah, that one too. All right. Never mind. All right.
Steve:But they did get much like Joseph. they were warned and dreamed.
Ken:Yes, they were. Warned in dreams. So far in this story, it's all in dreams. And the shepherds were not, the shepherds weren't part of this story. Was Mary's stuff all dream? It didn't mention Mary, remember? It was just Joseph. Oh. have you forgotten last time i made a big deal of that that's true you did it doesn't it mary is just a bit player she's just a side character just the one that's having the baby exactly um all right well let me read the next section i'd say you can go ahead and go to the end this is a long one. I'll read these next two sections, Steve. Now, when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, rise and take the child and his mother and flee to Egypt and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child to destroy him. And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, Out of Egypt I called my son. Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah. A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children. She refused to be comforted because they are no more. All right. So, so Jerk, uh, here it is more than a jerk. Um, but one of the things I was going to point out again, the angel speaks to Joseph here. Yep. Okay. Um, and I don't have, I don't have a lot to say here except, you know, they do go to Egypt, which is interesting because Moses, it, well, It fulfills prophecy, but it's also where Moses led the people out of, right? Moses led, or God, through Moses, led the people out of captivity in Egypt. And here, Jesus is coming from Egypt or, you know, has to go to Egypt. What should we take away from? I don't know. I have no deep insight on that one Steve
Steve:like you must return to your beginnings in order to progress
Ken:no I got nothing sorry sorry about that I shouldn't have said it because I got nothing
Steve:I did do a little bit of research or a little more research on Herod he was actually known for being brutal and paranoid. Killed some of his own family. Evidence that he killed one of his own sons. And the other thing I had is why... So I also asked the Ike, is there any record of this act of killing the children in a non-biblical source? And it said no. but if you think about how small this area was this little part of Bethlehem and maybe surrounding areas it was maybe a couple dozen kids so it's probably
Ken:a small area yeah hmm is ruthless evil. I mean, just killing all the children in an area two and younger just to make sure he tries to kill the Messiah.
Steve:That's beyond my conception. I can't conceive of that much hate or fear or paranoia. Yeah. He's going to die someday anyway. Kid's only two.
Ken:Yeah. And here's the thing. If you're Herod and you really think that he was born by God to be king of the Jews, do you think God would let you just take him out? that's that's a real misunderstanding of God's power
Steve:I don't think Herod was all that religious and I think he was actually married to descendants of Esau
Ken:I think one of his wives at least was Jewish I believe All right.
Steve:How many wives did he have?
Ken:I don't know. I said one because I was going to say his wife, but then I thought, does he have more than one? I don't know. All right. I have nothing else on this, Steve.
Steve:So you're going to make me read the last section.
Ken:Unless you want me to. Is your throat all gummed up? you know, whatever. I'll read it. You know what? I'll read it. I'm a better reader than you are anyway. Um, all right. So, and, uh, Matthew 19 to the end, uh, I mean, Matthew chapter two, verse 19 to the end. All right. But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt saying, rise, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel for those who sought the child's life are dead. And he rose and took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, and he went and lived in a city called Nazareth, so that what was spoken by the prophet might be fulfilled, that he would be called a Nazarene. All righty.
Steve:So I'm going to go back to the thing I said I was going to come back to. Okay. So Jesus, where would you say that I'm from, Ken?
Ken:I would say you are from Ohio.
Steve:I'm from a little town called Defiant in Ohio.
Ken:Yeah.
Steve:But I've also lived other places such as Austin, Texas. That's true. You might say I'm from Austin, Texas too. Jesus is from Bethlehem, Judea, Israel, Egypt, Galilee and Nazareth what's your point Steve basically that Matthew is trying to make sure all the dots are connected so that we can see how it traces back to prophecy
Ken:so yeah and that's I think the coolest thing about this is all the things that had to happen to make the prophecies come true for Jesus. And if you think about it, it started back in Daniel when, assuming the Magi or the wise men learned about this from the Jewish stuff with Daniel, which is very likely, in my opinion, since he was the head of the Magi.
Steve:And that's believed to be where they were from.
Ken:Yes. And so it started there, and they had to travel all the way and talk to Herod. He had to make the light go away so that they would have to talk with Herod to see where this king might be. And so that Herod would then do some things to force actions around. And it's just amazing if you think about the little things, all the little things that had to happen for so many years to push Jesus and Joseph and his family around to the different cities that he had to come from.
Steve:You know, going back to what you were saying about people not worshiping God because he didn't do, you know, what they wanted him to or, you know, bad things were happening. I wonder, do you think Joseph and Mary were like, we've got to move again? Really? Probably. I mean, I don't know. I don't have work in Egypt. I don't have work in Nazareth.
Ken:You know, I think when you know you hear from God, there's a different sense of assuredness. You know what I'm saying?
Steve:Yes.
Ken:It's a different kind of assuredness than when you're praying and going, God, let me, you know, if this isn't the right move, don't let it happen. And it still happens. And so you just do it. And so, you know, I guess God wants me to keep doing this because he didn't make this thing happen. He didn't close that door. He didn't open a different one. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, a lot of times we're faced with that. You know, honestly, I have had God talk to me in a dream before. And it's changed me completely. And I had no doubts about that situation anymore. And the assuredness that comes with that is amazing. And so I think—
Steve:The peace that passeth all understanding.
Ken:Yes, yes. It passes all understanding. That's peace that makes no sense. But, you know, the truth is, again, he talks with Joseph. The angel talks with Joseph. So it doesn't say that the angel didn't talk with Mary. But if the angel is only speaking to Joseph in dreams at this point, you might wonder about the rest of the family. You know, it's like, are you sure? Are you sure?
Steve:Are you sure that that was really God speaking in your dream? Maybe you just had a bad potato.
Ken:Yeah, it could have been. Yeah. You know, we're married. Can't imagine.
Steve:You and I are not married to each other.
Ken:That's not what I meant. Not married to each other. We're married to women that are separate. I'm only married to one woman. I'm married to one woman and you are married to a different one woman. All right. Anyway. So, let's see. what else you got on this section Steve I don't have anything really well I was wondering where the scripture is that says he will be called a Nazarene and that's a puzzle no one knows where that is let's see this says the leading theory connects it to the hebrew word net the hebrew word netzer meaning branch or shoot which appears in isaiah 11 verse 1 oh well but the point is you have to really, for the scriptures that we have, you have to like make ridiculous leaps to say that it says he will be called a Nazarene. So there could be a different thing that was spoken about back then that was not written. Are you saying our Bible's incomplete? I didn't say that, Steve. Our Bible is all that it should be. Because God ordained it. Yes, he did. All right. Anyway, I just, you know, found that funny. Because it's important to Matthew, right? That he puts it in here. And it's something, it's at least a saying that was common to Matthew, that he will be called a Nazarene, or he wouldn't have put that here.
Steve:Yeah, it's interesting that they haven't nailed it down to where it may have come from. Yeah.
Ken:Well, it is what it is, Steve. So I think, like I said, I think it could have been a saying more than a written thing. Or it might have been in something that's been since lost. So that's all I got, Steve. I think it's really cool how God pushed things around and made things work so that the prophecies were all answered. Over thousands of years. yep yep yep all right all right that anything else steve nope i think we're done all right well um be on the lookout guys we do have this app coming um and i think it'll be it'll be huge it'll be huge chapter three matthew chapter three is next check in later the regular guys bible study is a chasm llc production all rights reserved
