E77. Bridging the gap between designers, clients and professionals during the design process with Darren Evans and Chris Knierim

In this episode of the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, were on location in Hobart for the Building Designers, Association of Australia Trade night as part of the annual national conference held for building designers. 

Featured is a discussion about one of the biggest challenges, bridging the knowledge gap among contractors and professionals. 

Join Amelia and Frank who invited special guests Chris Knierim the CEO of the Building Designers Association of Australia (BDAA) and Darren Evans the President of the BDAA. Darren and Chris into the importance of education and accountability in delivering better outcomes for clients and projects during the design process.

From the critical role of providing detailed flashing and construction guidance to on-site contractors, to the reality that many believe they are skilled without understanding the finer details, this conversation doesn’t shy away from addressing tough truths. Chris and Darren share practical tips for empowering contractors with accessible resources and detailed plans that make even complex jobs straightforward.

The episode also explores the value of communication, with insights on how easily sharing the right information can transform a project’s success. Whether you’re a builder, designer, or homeowner, you’ll gain a new perspective on why education and collaboration are the keys to elevating industry standards.

Ending on a high note, the episode features humour, camaraderie, and a shared mission to improve the building and design process. Tune in to learn, laugh, and leave inspired to create better outcomes for everyone involved.

Don’t miss this insightful episode—listen now!

About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004.  Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au

Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.

Transcript

E77.  Bridging the gap between designers, clients and professionals during the design process with Darren Evans and Chris Knierim

[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design Primetime podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designers perspective.

[Frank] (0:36 - 0:58)

H Everyone. This is a continuation of the podcast from the BDAA National Festival of Design (BDAA), Trade Night at the Wrestpoint Casino. It’s my pleasure to have Chris Knierim, CEO and Darren Evans, current president of the BDAA, come in for a chat. We're talking about what's been going on with the BDAA, where it's going.

I hope you enjoy that.

[Amelia] (0:59 - 1:06)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design Prime Time podcast. I'm your host Amelia and once again we're joined by Frank Geskus.

[Frank] (1:06 - 1:09)

Hey Amelia, we're still here at the BDAA trade show.

[Amelia] (1:09 - 1:13)

We are, it's been a wonderful night. We've interviewed a lot of exhibitors.

[Frank] (1:14 - 1:14)

Yes.

[Amelia] (1:14 - 1:18)

We’ve learned a lot about claddings and tapware and all kinds of stuff.

[Frank] (1:18 - 1:19)

CLT.

[Amelia] (1:19 - 1:21)

Yes, cross laminated timber.

[Frank] (1:22 - 2:00)

But now we're going to talk to a couple of dodgy looking gentlemen, not quite, no. So we have Darren Evans, current president of the Building Design Association and Chris Knierim from the CEO of the BDAA. Now to open disclosure, I've got to tell everyone, I'm the immediate past president of the BDAA and now we're being heckled from the side.

So we're in the hallway and everyone's heckling us. So thanks for coming on guys. You're welcome.

[Darren]

No problem whatsoever. Thanks Frank for having us. 

[Frank]

You sound worried.

[Darren]

A little bit. 

[Frank]

I'm more worried about you saying something inappropriate.

[Darren] (2:00 - 2:06)

No, I wouldn't do that. It was just a heckler with his undoing a button. What is wrong with Michael?

[Amelia] (2:07 - 2:10)

Oh my goodness. This is supposed to be a G-rated podcast people.

[Darren] (2:11 - 2:13)

Well we may need to revise the rating.

[Amelia] (2:13 - 2:14)

We might.

[Frank] (2:14 - 2:15)

Or you can chop out the bad bit.

[Amelia] (2:15 - 2:19)

That's all right. I'm pretty sure there's a disclosure I've written somewhere.

[Frank] (2:19 - 2:29)

Anyway. All right. So got you guys on here. So what new innovations are coming up for BDAA over the next year?

[Darren] (2:29 - 3:31)

We've had some workshops. We've been workshopping both here in Australia and around the world. So we've just come back from New Zealand. Meeting with the architectural designers in New Zealand. Looking to build relationships. Looking to do a lot of cross-border, I guess, liaison.

Building relationships not only for our members but also board members and associations. So we can have affiliate associations providing like-minded service to one another and support each other. And I guess in Australia there's just been a lot of, I guess, problems in the housing market with the fact that housing affordability number one.

[Frank]

How's that changed? 

[Darren]

Oh it's unbelievable. The push by government saying we're going to, you know, 1.2 million homes. We know it's unrealistic. All of these expectations they're putting on the market yet the consumer doesn't have the money. So how are we ever going to reach the 1.2 million homes?

And you know you're not going to reach it anyway because of the fact that it takes two years from the time you do the concepts to the completion of the design to getting the house built. So you're two years down the path and we're already several hundred thousand homes behind what they need in year one.

[Frank] (3:31 - 3:33)

So you're always going to be chasing your tail.

[Darren] (3:33 - 3:34)

Yeah.

[Frank] (3:34 - 3:41)

You know this is not the first time it's happened in Australia though. After the war. World War II. They had that massive problem. It took them like 23 years to catch up. 

[Darren]

Exactly.

[Chris] (3:42 - 6:58)

And I think one of the other aspects is that yes there's a big regulatory sort of thing that we're trying to do and what we know as an industry is very hard to achieve. And I think that's across the board. That's not just us.

It's from building designers. It's the builders. It's the any other consultants and the suppliers are all.

[Frank]

And the skill shortage. 

[Chris]

And the skill shortage. 
 
 

[Frank]

Not from construction all the way down into our field as well.

[Darren]

So understanding that and from a political point of view they want to still keep on pushing that barrel and saying it's all going to happen. From our point of view as the Building Design Association we've been concentrating on you know the regulatory aspect the licensing aspect of the designers making sure that our designers are upskilled to be able to lift to the challenges that are coming and happening within our industry. Licensing in New South Wales is going to be an awesome change and it's one that we've been looking for, for a long time and that's going to create a tightening I suppose of the quality of building designer.

So building designers they know that and they're working towards upskilling so that they're ready for it. 

[Frank]

Yeah. 

It's also going to strengthen the fact that the consumer are going to have more confidence in the industry because people are going to actually now be accountable for the work that they do.

[Chris]

The Building Commission in New South Wales has been highly looked upon from other states and territories as that benchmark for many years and they've got the resources and they've got the finance to be able to put this together. The Building Commission was developed from one person being the Building Commissioner it's now over 400 employees within around three to four years. Other states and territories when we're meeting and having discussions with government the government are saying that they are waiting to see what's happening in New South Wales to pick apart what they've done and implement all the good points they believe they could implement and the other points that aren't so good they're not going to bother with in their state and territory.

Doesn't mean that this everything's going to be perfect for them however they want to you know pick and choose what they would like. 

[Darren]

Wouldn't it be nice if we had one country one rule like as in from a license point of view. 

[Frank]

It's very obvious isn't it?

[Darren]

It is just from a double from a costing point of view we're all we're all conscious of housing affordability but yet everywhere we turn there's costs as in being added on and duplicated. 

[Frank]

Oh red tape and the planning and planning like. 

[Darren]

We're all here as designers we want to do the best design that we can for our client for the site we want a building that performs we want it to be energy efficient we want it to be built so that it lasts we want all of these things but then most of the things we're fighting against are yeah a lot of duplication and frustration that it takes so long to get things through and you know we're all working very, very hard to change that and I think from a from a board level from a you know where we are at the cold face dealing with you know the state governments and the building codes and those sort of things to try and make it better for members and for our industry.

[Frank] (6:58 - 7:24)

You know it's interesting a lot there's a lot of people in that space a lot of organizations in that space isn't it you know we've spoken about this from builders to consultants designers the funny thing is we're all trying to do the same thing but sometimes from a different angle 

[Darren]

Yes 

[Frank]

and we don't always agree yep and that's hard to navigate that too and there's a lot at stake what we're doing yep you know we get this wrong it goes wrong bad doesn't it?

[Darren] (7:24 - 10:12)

Well that's the thing something like this is you know I guess in New South Wales itself it's probably the biggest reform in New South Wales history and I even believe it's Australian history in the construction sector it's been much needed reform people have been you know pushing it aside for many, many years and saying oh it'll be right but everything's covered with plasterboard and things are hidden with cladding and it's not until the defects are starting to come to fruition where we've got glass cracking or facades cracking or you're hearing 

[Frank]

People get sick, the building is sick 

[Darren]

yeah well that's another big one you know not designing homes with proper ventilation and creating condensation which leads to mould you know we raise a lot of this at the BDAA we lobby governments across Australia to make them aware to raise awareness of the concerns that we have to protect number one the consumer that's who we are we all consumers and I'm just going to go back to one of the things that you just said there Chris in regards to the change the the biggest change in in in the industry so obviously New South Wales being at you know the amount that they build and from a Victorian point of view as well not that I'm bringing up any rivalry because obviously there is no way to do that sorry did I slip that in?

 don't edit it out so when we went down a registration path and a licensing path it was it was the doom and gloom it was going to be you know everything is going to fall apart we went through the transition there was grandfather clausing in regards to people who'd been practicing and had good experience but not the technical qualifications and then there were the new ones coming through so it went through fairly well could have been some that there was some hiccups but what it ended up giving the consumer was a really tight industry that the consumer protection was there we all had to have insurances we all had to keep up our pd you know it was almost common sense 

[Chris]

to some degree 

[Darren]

but it worked really well as well and I think New South Wales I know there's a lot of factors which are fighting against it but from a New South Wales point of view I think when as soon as licensing comes in it's going to be a great thing for the consumers 

[Chris]

Yeah well obviously you're consumer protection and you've got accountability that's number one 

[Frank]

That’s the key isn't it? 

[Chris]

The biggest problem in the construction industry is a lack of accountability that's amongst trades you know you'll see plenty of construction companies going under because you've got issues going on in their buildings but the building itself 

[Darren]

But some of them may not have seen that and you know the tile or something oh sorry I can't fix the tile oh that's somebody else you know

[Frank] (10:12 - 10:55)

know but I strongly believe like you're saying builders going broke I'm going a bit off topic but I think it needs to be said that because the fixed price contracts that I was stuck with they lose money on a job I'll do another job I'll make up the money yep but they're not because the prices went up again so they lost on a fixed price contract and then I might do a cost plus contract so it doesn't cost much but if they have a 10 margin they've just lost x amount of percentage of this one x amount of this one and they're still behind the eight ball you're delaying the inevitable and they're chasing their tail and all you need is a late payment or whatever and their cash flow is gone there's a lost of credit they're toast so yep with the lobbying

[Chris] (10:55 - 14:13)

With the lobbying that we had done with government biggest concern that we raised in was in within contracts themselves with the construction sector was the fact that these fixed price contracts the issue that we identified in our heads of industry meeting what we lobbied was the fact we wanted to raise awareness was the fact that people have these fixed price contracts no one's expecting to have COVID no one's expecting that increase in material pricing that we have which is generally around 30 to 35 percent the margins might have been 10 so they actually can't afford it so the builders were going to the consumers saying I actually cannot afford to do your building the consumers are then coming back and countering that saying well my bank's not going to lend me money to finish your job the ones that could get the money who said well you know I'm going to bugger that builder off and get someone else that next builder doesn't want to take the risk because they have to undersign the work that was done before them and the issue that they had was they were now going to increase their pricing substantially to ensure that they covered the risk if something had happened so the issue that we have and a point that I had put to government and so forth that people need to include in their contract is they need to include a levy for the materials that you purchase so let's say it's a steel you've got to put a tonnage rate on the steel of what you've allowed and there's got to be a tolerance either way in that and if it exceeds that for example copper I was on doing a job myself and the copper went up three times the price during from the time I quoted the time I started there was a lot of copper guttering and several of them job and I said to the client I'm really sorry but the copper's gone up so much more than what I actually had allowed I can't afford it we're talking forty and fifty thousand dollar loss just on the copper roofing and guttering and it was actually a really good client he said look I understand I will cover that difference because I actually came from the metals industry and I'm aware that there was an increase and to put that on you would be a financial burden that could jeopardise your business he was actually a genuinely nice person but there's a lot of people out there and he understood the facts so what I had said was you need to have an escalating or a scaled rate and you should have a nominal rate within your quotes a builder should be putting nominal rates as to what their allowances are per material so at least a client knows okay if it goes above that they'll pay above it but that is our threshold of what we'll pay above and if it drops down they'll give them the discount 

[Darren]

I think it's a big wake-up call to the overall building industry that in reality we've had a boom for 20-30 years and from a contract point of view they had their standard contracts whichever association they were with that they were using that standard contract and thought it's all been checked out by the lawyers it's all good it's you know good protection for us good protection for them but COVID was one way out of the bag I'll 

[Frank]

just shot everyone in the neck

[Darren]

There's nothing that they could do there was no there was no sort of option but I think from an industry point of view I think that's going to cause a big change and whether or not that goes down that path of what you were saying Chris in regards to sort of looking at tonnage of different materials or just it really needs to be re-looked at because otherwise we don't we don't want to see builders going down

[Frank] (14:13 - 14:23)

The problem is what happens when they go bust 

[Darren]

yep 

[Frank]

they're not going to go back to business people lose money they're not going to affect the subcontractors 

[Darren]

Their credit ratings go down

[Frank]

It’s bad business all round, everything goes down the toilet. 

[Darren] (14:23 - 14:45)

From another point of view the builder could be a great builder 

[Frank]

Exactly 

[Darren]

and that's another skilled builder lost and and I hate to say it but it's not an industry where you see them flooding running back in.

[Frank]

No, once burnt.

[Darren] (14:45 - 15:09)

And we've got a federal government sitting there going we want an extra 1.2 million

houses and we've got a diminishing trade base

[Frank]

but this comes out whole business thing so with that in mind as the BDAA and we're involved in a lot of committees federally, state local and you know and also trying to get education for our own members where do you see how BDAA is going to help the building designers in the future navigate this?  

[Chris] (15:09 - 17:57)

well BDAA always tries to forecast what is happening you know we're in meetings across every state and territory in Australia whether it's federal or as well during those meetings we assess what we believe it's a little bit like a stock market we're a broker we've got to try to look at where we believe the industry is heading what are the risks associated with that if we are not involved in some capacity or if we don't educate the members so the aim will be is okay we need to educate the industry not just our members we want to educate the industry so for us as the BDAA we provide education generally that is not your generic education we try to find a niche where the education we provide will be something different to what others produce otherwise everyone's going to be going to that person so we want them to come to us. If we can provide that that is a risk that we've identified that we can try to mitigate the more that we can do that the better it is for the industry and then the industry appreciates that the government appreciate what the BDAA do that's how come our membership has increased so much and that's how come we're invited to nearly every roundtable discussion with every government in Australia 

[Darren]

and I agree totally Chris I think one of the other things is from a designer future designer walking into the industry or starting out in business I think certainly PD professional development keeping aware of what's going on new products new techniques new situations says oh you're always going to get suppliers which are going to be highlighting to you about problems within the industry and how they've solved them you know some may be sales but certainly are making you aware of it but I think the other one is documentation the level of documentation quality is best quality documentation and specifications to really reinforce every chat every discussion every note that you've made with a client that's going on the drawings you're getting everything specified in there you're not leaving it to any vagueness you're not going to be confirmed you're not going to be this product or similar it's specified the name is in there and that's going to help protect the building designer 

[Frank]

Yeah 

[Darren]

from the point of view if there's a future issue and you've nominated the product you specified the product you give a performance solution for the product you're covered.  If it gets changed or substituted you're still covered and I think we've got to look after from an industry point of view and educate the builders to do exactly what's on there do exactly what's been specified

[Frank] (17:57 - 18:20)

They need to understand their risks. 

[Darren]

Yes exactly. 

[Frank]

Don't change shit for the sake of changing because that is a major problem in the industry 

[Darren]

Yep 

[Frank]

I’ve got this is I've got a cheaper product yep I can do this or you swap out you specified we're talking to James Hardie, Weathertex they can swap one of those out for a cheaper product yep well that's not what the client paid for.

[Darren] (18:20 - 19:47)

Nah well the biggest issue is the clients are led by decisions from experts professionals that they pay thinking they're going to provide them the best advice now the one thing one of my pet hates is when a designer puts a product on a drawing or specifies a product on a drawing and build the substitutes it why do you do that when the client and the designer have been there for many months deciding what they want to have on their project the designer wouldn't just go and put anything on so basically the biggest concern is that okay a drawing has been drawn with a particular product in mind that the client and the designer would have spent a long time on debating what is the best product for my project.

[Frank]

Yeah 

[Darren]

Now the issue is, is when that's substituted by the builder they may not actually tell the client that substitute because the material looks similar but when they say hey um let's substitute it for this this is cheaper a lot of the time it's because it might be harder to install or they may never have installed it before so it becomes… 

[Frank]
They stick to what they know. 

[Darren]

Correct and the issue is that nobody ever goes back to recheck what the thermal performance value is of that building and has the material substitution altered the performance of that building.

[Frank]

Or the bush fire rating 

[Darren]

Yeah but just one thing because if you have a six, seven star home and they substitute material and that's no longer a six star home it's a 5.5 that building is non-compliant and this is a big issue in the industry.

[Frank]

You know it also ticks me off? lack of inspections 

[Chris] (19:47 - 19:51)

Yes there's not enough. 

[Frank] (19:51 - 19:57)

No, nowhere near enough and this might sound mental to everyone that they're only prescribed what's under the regulations there is a minimum… 

[Darren] (19:57 - 20:18)

You mean more rather than lack of inspections, you mean lack of mandatory inspections?

[Frank]

Like mandatory inspections and I don't understand it and we've all seen um the guy on um Instagram what's his name? 

[Chris]

I know who you mean the Lebanese inspector guy 

[Frank]

yeah and I love it and people are paying for him to go there to inspect something that another inspector should have already done 

[Chris] (20:18 - 21:48)

Yeah and he's picking up all the anomalies like what was interesting I was just in New Zealand everyone goes hey Chris there's this guy on the internet and he's like this inspector dude and he looks like he's a security guy with his bullet vest but he knows his stuff, yeah it's like he's not he's not doing it in a in a vicious way he knows his stuff and he's inspecting and he's saying exactly how it is I mean 

[Frank]
But he's right it's non-compliant 

[Chris]

It's non-compliant and I have a big issue with if he is that popular because he has been out of so many projects and they are that non-compliant then we've got a major issue in our industry that there's nobody checking it, the building surveyors aren't checking it and he's he's just walking on I mean obviously he has the plans so he can he knows what he's checking against but the fact that some of these ones are gaping holes in a thing that, in a building that the surveyor's gone yep that's all right pass it!

[Frank]

My favourite is where you go the bathroom and pours the fluro water out and it goes the wrong way 

[Chris]

On the carpet, down the stairs 

[Amelia]

Oh wow 

[Darren]

This is this is just an absolute disgusting reflection of what our industry is doing at the moment 

[Frank]

And should be named and shamed because that is a blatant yep failure of a builder 

[Darren]

Not just named and shamed they actually need to be penalised they will need to start to lose their license

[Frank] (21:48 - 21:54)

But then they take him to court take the bodies to court says you've taken my only way to earn a living 

[Darren]

[Chris] (21:54 - 24:00)

Well bad luck, no definitely you need another job because you're doing a shit job currently 

[Frank]

exactly right

[Chris]

You need to find another profession yep so and that is that is no seriously litigation is the way to go and these people…

[Frank]

No one can afford the litigation because the loss of value in their property. 

[Chris]

I think you need to look at it because he does it in many states yeah he's doing 

[Frank]

So people are flying him all over the place 

[Chris]

And so that is why in Victoria we have VCAT right you go there I mean as a he would he would probably be called as a expert witness turning up in his flak jacket and a straight jacket you mean um and giving his evidence but everything that he's saying is true it's it is accurate and there's no reason why the builder or his qualified trades who were doing their prescribed jobs have performed the type of job that they have and the building surveyor who then said yep this is all good so 

[Frank]

Then hopefully the designer's done the right job 

[Chris]

well hopefully the designer look and look I have to say that there's been in a lot of his inspections and I've watched a few of them I haven't seen him criticise the designer slash architect for the job it he's not looking at it saying that this is what's designed and it's faulty it's non-compliant he's actually showing you know that the house and how it's done and then whatever has been constructed is totally non-compliant. Well I saw one the other day where he pulled out a roll of foil aluminium foil that was used as the barge flashing.

[Frank]

Saw that 

[Chris] (24:00 - 24:25)

And the builder or the roofing plumber at that point had put aluminium foil what we wrapped the chicken up in he'd put the aluminium foil on there and then painted it black. I mean if that is not a total and utter disregard to the client's you know asset that they're building I don't know what is and that show you're prosecuted 

[Frank]

But that's all we're ever after trying to do everyone gets what they you know deserve for the right price, get all the right people doing their job and someone's got a quality build at the end of the day regardless of what your build is quality build 

[Darren]

yes exactly.

[Frank]

 It's very simple…

[Darren] (24:25 - 27:21)

Look, so we are…sorry Chris I'll jump in it it's hard to believe I'm interrupting Chris 

[Frank]

I know! What’s going on?

[Darren]

I know I've got the mic in front of me it's just… 

[Frank]

You’re on! 

[Darren]

That is the reason why we talk about the documentation the specification and I'll harp on that is that if we do our job right we document everything we're not leaving anything to chance, then from an industry point of view we're giving that project the best possible opportunity for success 

[Frank]

Yep agreed 

[Darren]

All right and then the builder just has to comply with that if the documentation's dodgy it's starting off on the back foot and 

[Frank]

And then we've proven time and time again 

[Darren]

And look the issue we've got everyone talks about the guy you know being on the build and having issues and look at this and look at that that's not proper my concern is that they actually don't know that they're actually doing it wrong 

yes 

and that is that is a serious shock to me because I've been on builds where I've had to go and do inspections and I said to the guy where's the weep hole he said what's that? I said weep hole and he said…

[Frank]

I've had it with dpc the damp proof course yeah where is it?

[Darren]

So this is the this is the thing my concern is the lack of knowledge out there in the industry from the contractors you know undertaking the work to me is a huge problem and I believe it's the education level of what people are getting when I was young and I did my building diploma that was a four-year carpentry joinery course followed by three years of three day a week five till nine p.m technical college to do the building diploma plus one full Saturday every month and that was four year or seven year up all up segway to get to your builder's license the issue today is people are just granted building like oh you've been in the building industry 10 years or whatever oh you've worked as a labourer okay well you can do a certificate and we'll give you a license to be able to go and build someone’s home.  It's ridiculous now as a building designer and as an architect our responsibility has to be provide them as much detail as you can like you've gone to an IKEA store and you've got the instructions they need to understand how the flashing should be on. We've been talking about to the government and so forth and to members creating QR codes we're working with a company called tools they're with a foundation partner of them where members can go on there click on the job site you can click on the flashing detail and actually shows you the flashing detail you're able to then share that with any of the contractors on site so when the contractors say hey I've never done this before what should I do hey no problem two seconds okay I'll send you a text message with the detail the detail is so important because I honestly believe these contractors don't know what they're doing they believe that they are good but they actually don't know enough and that is the problem we need to educate them 

[Frank]

Oh it's all about education and accountability yes, yeah what do you reckon 

[Darren] (27:21 - 27:26)

in summary you'd like to summarise something or 

[Amelia]

No, no I think you've pretty much uh solved the world's problems right there. 

[Darren] (27:26 - 27:37)

Oh we can keep on going I mean we've got 

[Frank]

Trust me they can keep going otherwise yeah 

[Darren]

we'll do another session another time 

[Frank]

I think we will. 

[Amelia] (27:37 - 27:44)

Sounds good yeah. Alight we might uh wrap it up thanks for coming in having a chat 

[Darren]

Thanks for having us

[Frank]

Chilling out

[Amelia]

Chilling out

[Frank] (27:44 - 28:26)

You guys been racing around all day yeah 

[Chris]
We have it's all good it's important 

[Amelia]

It’s actually nice to sit down

[Chris]
it's important…it is nice to sit down it'll be nice to go and lay down soon 

[Amelia]

I reckon 

[Frank]

You'll be exhausted 

[Chris]

We've got to still go and socialise and do yeah 

[Frank]

You're very good at that 

[Chris]

Look I take it on as a it's a professional thing that I have to do. I've been working at it for a number of years…

[Frank]

And you're highly skilled 

[Chris]

I am highly skilled that's look that's a job somebody's got to do it 

[Amelia]

Well you do it very well

[Chris]

thank you 

[Amelia]

both of you 

[Chris]

Thanks a lot for your time 

[Amelia]

Thank you Darren, thank you Chris 

[Chris]

Thanks for supporting the industry and keep doing the good work 

[Amelia]

We’re just out there to educate people aren’t we?

[Frank] (28:26 - 28:30)

That we are. 

[Amelia] (28:30 - 28:44)

Yep. Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast 

[Frank]

Catch ya’s later 

[OUTRO]

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